David Bates Resignation
 

Did David Bates come to the conclusion "Better the devil you know than the devil you do not know" concerning Horton and Parker?

Yeah, this is interesting. As I understand it, Bates was more pragmatic than the previous APA president. Is this a return to the more militant APA of the past?

That is how I see it. Standby for some interesting times.

Can we have some history on him... Did he resign out of protest bc he supported tha ta that got voted down?

I believe as it was stated in the eblast sent to APA members, he was pro TA and as president should be a rep for all of the pilots. 61% against his belief, thus no longer does he rep what the majority of the pilots want. Seems logical. Remember, the TA barely had enough of a vote to even go to the membership. I believe it was a 9-7 vote. Glad my brethrens voted no.

Bring back Darrah.

"At the request of the APA Board of Directors, I agreed late yesterday to resign as your union president."

https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/...signation.aspx

We were talking about this in the cockpit yesterday.

The man's job was to represent us to the company. It was not his fault that the company didn't cooperate with our/his expectations. He and his team got the best TA they could, which was gross, but not due to any lack of effort.

Perhaps his error was in exhorting pilots to accept the TA. If he simply said "Here it is guys, this is the best we could get after YEARS of hard work. It's in your hands now." then all would be well, IMO.

I have zero problems with his leadership, but if he feels it'd be best to step down, that of course is his option.

The confidence in Bates capability and the direction he led the pilot group are debateable and many, many pilots felt he failed to understand the interests of his own consituency and became a rep for the interests of AMR and other parties, but that's behind us now.

What lies ahead is unknown, but at some point AA pilots will HAVE to have a stable CBA. What IS for sure is whenever that arrives, be it soon, prior to C11 exit or after C11, it will have to be something that inspires confidence in the pilots that they have a viable career going forward and that they are not being used as a temporary vehicle to facilitate the morphing of their carrier and flying to the hands of others withour benefit to them. The last decade has simply been a transfer of wealth from the pilots to management and the provisions of TA virtually ensured another decade of that.

If this management intends to cling to that goal, it will ultimately fail as the majority of the pilots simply have no further interest in footing the bill for that ideal. The ball is in AMR's court and so we shall see.............

Quick question, if things get ugly and the judge imposes terms through the 1113 process then are those terms in effect only until AA emerges from BK? Or are they in effect until APA negotiates a new contract (in or out of BK)? Thanks and good luck

Until you negotiate a new contract. The judge doesn't impose terms, he would reject your contract meaning you have no contract at all. Management would then be free to impose any terms they desire. In general, that is their last official table position.

This is not true. The judge has to approve the terms they desire. A judge looks at the rest of the industry. He is not going to impose an industry worst contract just because the company demands it. The company has to show what other companies pay and prove that the American pilots are getting too much. They aren't. I expect them to lose some work rules, scope, and have their retirement modified. They will come out much better than they would have if they passed that TA. Delta pilots live in fear of the unknown. Alfaromeo's post proves this.

The way it has been explained by the unions at AA and AE is that the judge will look to see if the contract gets in the way of the company successfully restructuring and moving forward, if the contracts are deemed detrimental he will abrogate and Management will be free to impose work rules, they have stated they will impose the 1113 term sheet!

"We must now await a ruling by Judge Lane on the pilot contract that will allow the company to implement the changes necessary to move forward with our restructuring." Denise Lynn, SVP - People (HR)

http://www.restructuringamr.com/the-...ns-updates.asp

We did.

He is going by the name "Wilson" now.

Well it's great to make your decisions in ignorance. Section 1113c is about contract REJECTION. Not changing, not amending, rejecting. A rejected contract means you have no contract. Other judges have in the past restricted the company to either a TA position or the last table position. That is not written into the law it is just what the judges have done. This judge has stated openly that he does not think he has the right to impose conditions after a contract rejection, he may or may not live up to those words. If the contract is rejected, then the courts have ruled that the labor group is covered under Section 2 of the RLA. That deals with a labor group that has a union but doesn't have a contract yet. For example, if the Delta flight attendants voted in a union, they would fall under Section 2 until they negotiated their first contract. Under Section 2, there is no timeline nor any right to strike. That is what happened to the NWA flight attendants until they crawled back to management to try to scrape together some claim from bankruptcy.

So the most likely scenario in this case seems to be a contract rejection on Wednesday. AMR management would likely pick either the TA or the LBFO term sheet and set those as the current working conditions. The judge may or may not order them to stick to those conditions until a new agreement is reached. Those conditions prevail even after bankruptcy is over. The courts have also ruled that under a contract rejection, the labor group is not due an unsecured claim from the court. It is possible that he creditor's committee could move to eliminate the pilots from the committee which would reduce their leverage in the consolidation game. This is what really happens in the real world. In your little forum world you get to spout off nonsense and then never have to live with the consequences of your bloviation.

I don't live in fear of the unknown, but you seem to relish living in ignorance. You make up rules that don't exist and then claim some courage by sticking to those rules. You live in a world that has consequences whether you believe that or not. Sitting behind a keyboard is quite the courageous thing to do. You threaten to quit about every 2 days and go to another airline, but yet here you are, still with the same ignorance and the same self bravado. Profiles in courage.

Unhuh:rolleyes:.......ever hear of section 1113(b)? What does it say?

I believe you are incorrect and Alfa is correct.

The Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code is titled "Rejection of Collective Bargaining Agreements" because this code ultimately is the provision through which a company (a "debtor") may seek to reject a Contract.

The judge will most likely reject the contract, that's what the motion calls for and the company will impose terms. Doubt they will be better than offered through negotiations. Airlines labor rarely escapes BK with an industry standard contract.

I thought this was an 1113(c) filing not (b).


11 U.S.C. Section 1113
Sec. 1113. Rejection of collective bargaining agreements

Sec. 1113(c): Permanent Contract Rejection
(c) The court shall approve an application for rejection of a collective bargaining agreement only if the court finds that -
(1) the trustee has, prior to the hearing, made a proposal that fulfills the requirements of subsection (b)(1);
(2) the authorized representative of the employees has refused to accept such proposal without good cause; and
(3) the balance of the equities clearly favors rejection of such agreement.

Then it's the end of American Airlines

After talking to some American pilots, I am under the impression they are willing to put the whole company out of business if they are not paid in line with the Delta pilots. This group is really ****ed off. Even that's an understatement.

Most definately there are. But would be error to think everyone is that way. Like all pilot groups, this one is a bell curve on all issues. The level of militancy varies among individual pilots and even sub groups of status and domicile.

Actually, should the 1113 be imposed and elements of that begin to be implimented, I think it will only shift more of the currently meek and/or middle-of-the-road toward greater militancy as the this managements ruthlessness actually becomes reality for them. Then, depending on the timing and level of assault, that will actually make any future agreement increasing more difficult to ratify. At some point, many pushed to the brink will simply pull up stakes and leave. I think the worst scenario would be AMR leaving BK with no agreement as then there would be no judge to run to should attrition become excessive. That's a major loss of leverage and if AA unravels to the point of a fragmentation announcement, I think a mass exodus would occur as many pilots would then bail with what they got and move on. All you'd be fragmenting is a lot of airplanes and not as many pilots. Many of those routes couldn't be sustained during that fragmentation and thus that revenue would be lost forever to others. If a fragmentation of some or all of AA occured without pilots, that mass exodus would become a stampede that would way too early for either party of that specific fragmentation, because at that point, it's all over and for most nothing left to lose but assist AMR in the final slitting of their throats. Sure, you could train, but that takes months, which is too long to stop the transitional damage. That damage would weaken any such transactions value and would likely be a colossal goat****.

ouring over the last few days comments from many of the analysts, it seems now even many of them are suddenly scurrying out of their holes and claiming AMR will have serious difficulty presenting a winning POR with a wildcard for pilot labor costs which is an about face from their claims prior to the TA vote. Coincidentally (or not), the APA itself as part of their sales job to the pilots claimed a yes vote would weaken AMR and now many are saying what the pilots believed all along........that the fastest way to getting a new management that actually might consider the pilots to be human beings instead of "bricks" has now been made MORE likely then less, thus the APA leaders have lost the confidence of many of the pilots as they seem to completely out of touch with both them and the situation and quite frankly for many of them, their loyalties are being questioned. More then one domicile wants to clean house of their reps and one in particular is up for that possibility soon. If that domicile changes it representational base, it could swing the BOD in the opposite direction.

Personally, I think AMR once again embracing their hideously flawed philosophy of kickig the can down the road and limping along through the BK process will only prove to be as successful as the last 15 years of running this airline.

At least they'd be consistant. :cool:

(b)(1) Subsequent to filing a petition and prior to filing an application seeking rejection of a collective bargaining agreement, thedebtor in possession or trustee (hereinafter in this section ''trustee'' shall include a debtor in possession), shall -


(A) make a proposal to the authorized representative of the employees covered by such agreement, based on the most complete and reliable information available at the time of such proposal, which provides for those necessary modifications in the employees benefits and protections that are necessary to permit the reorganization of the debtor and assures that all creditors, the debtor and all of the affected parties are treated fairly and equitably; and


(B) provide, subject to subsection (d)(3), the representative of the employees with such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.


What's your point? Management made an offer to APA, they reached an agreement approved by the union leadership. The question before the judge is whether or not the balance of the equities favors rejection.

Well, to play angel's advocate, a few questions to ask would be; Has AMR REALLY met the spirit and intent of these bankruptcy provisions or just the "letter of the law" ?

Is their 1113 request and the LBFO TA that was concocted from it REALLY what is "necessary" for AMR to successfully reorganize or was it simply a gross overreach by a management with a long history of taking advantage of its labor ?

Are the pilots REALLY being treated "fairly and equitably" in this process or are they simply being taken advantage of again in an arena that gives even more leverage then normal to virtually everyone BUT labor ?

Will THIS judge simply be a another rubber stamp for the letter of the law or will he break from the past and actually determine that indeed the debtors request in this filing does not meet the spirit and intent ?

Personally, I think odds favor a business as usual situation and a rubber stamp a'la the past, but there still remains the chance this judge will see what is really happening here from a corporation who filed BK with almost 5 billion and has made another billion without a single implimentation of any cost-saving measure by labor requested by them of the court.

I think it's easy to see why AA pilots patience for this BS has come to an end and their cup of tolerance is about to runneth over.

Seems to me this entire thread hints at "the elephant in the room" we have arguments about all the "leagaleze" But--what about an "EFF it" attitude that sees a "wildcat" strike. AA pilots--rightly so---are getting to a point where the repercussions don't really matter. Lawyers on here have an answer to that. NO WAY are you running a company with 60% of your pilots gone. I don't care if you get a judge to fire them.

What I think is likely to happen, is the first 1113(c) filing will be denied by the judge. However, the judge will allow an expedited re-filing, and that one will get approved. AMR management has to remove the scope relief sections of the 1113(c) filing for it to get approved. In bankruptcy you can't ask a union employee to give up his/her job as a form of concessions(it's unfair), it must be willfully voted away.

Well, the answer to all these questions will be coming soon. My opinion doesn't matter a whit compared to what the judge says.

This is the crux of the whole matter now, is it not? What they have the cojones to do (or NOT do).

Personally, I have difficulty seeing anyone ride that particular "elephant" at this time. The future is a wildcard right now and no one can predict that future as there are too many potential paths still possible.

Not going to argue the validity of your assertions above here, but without scope relief AMR's POR is a non-starter. Even WITH scope relief, most agree it's already on life support and coughing up blood.

IMO there are aspects of the strategy you infer that create more problems then they solve. IMO, you're more likely to simply see pilots just leaving and not trying to make any statement other then they want to get on with their lives and stop existing in this absurd environment. A lot could afford it and others sound like they can get other gigs.

Personally, the thought of breaking my butt under anything like that TA for minimal reward while the fat cats explode their personal wealth at my expense is of no interest to me. I'm sure they could find thousands of hungry RJ drivers who would push their grandmothers down a steep flight of stairs to touch a new A319 for $40/hour though.

I say pull the trigger!! Get the SPC's up and running and convince management that if abrogation they seek, the NUCLEAR option they will get!! Its about time labor rattles managements cage. I hear China's hiring. Convince management that withdrawing YOUR services is in the works....:mad:

China is Hiring? How many fifty+year olds will get off? Maybe 100? I doubt in this economy that many will leave. Look at our employer and what pilots will put up with. RLA prevents a strike. I do want APA to hang tough. What is the economic reality? Those who don't need to work would have already left.

APA's willingness to bargain on that issue is why I don't think AMR will let the judge read his decision. A last minute better deal would not surprise me one bit.

++++++++++++++++++++++++


To quote John MacKenroe..."You can't be serious."

I could walk away tomorrow and be OK. My wife is a professional and makes very good $$. But I'd rather stay, fight, and hopefully be rewarded with a career and a job worth pursuing.