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Union members to vote on American deal

Old 11-26-2012, 05:12 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls View Post
I read it a bit more and I think it's going to pass. I know you're on your quest to get industry standard, but you guys have to swallow that pill and realize you're not the top dog anymore. Industry standard would be great for a while, but it would send you right back into bankruptcy (or the threat of bankruptcy).

American is a great airline, but it can't compete with Delta or United. If the merger doesn't happen (which I personally think it won't) you'll be competing with Us Airways, Alaska, Hawaiian, ect for the teet of the DOT. I have no doubt you'll get awarded some new routes, but it'll be a while (20 years) before you could organically grow to the size of Delta or United.

As I said before, it's a hard pill to swallow. You guys deserve industry standard; you just don't deserve what will happen if you get it.
Why can't American Pay their pilots industry standard? There are guys out there flying 737 making more than widebody captains at the Legacy carriers! And they are a Low Cost Carrier. Stop letting management implant stuff in your head. If they shifted and extra 25 cents per seat per hr on a -80 to the pilots that would be $35 extra. 20 more for the Captain and 15 for the FO. IF the airlines collectively wanted to pay their pilots more they could raise ticket prices by a minuscule amount and be able to do so, but they want to drive cost down...
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls View Post
I read it a bit more and I think it's going to pass. I know you're on your quest to get industry standard, but you guys have to swallow that pill and realize you're not the top dog anymore. Industry standard would be great for a while, but it would send you right back into bankruptcy (or the threat of bankruptcy).

American is a great airline, but it can't compete with Delta or United. If the merger doesn't happen (which I personally think it won't) you'll be competing with Us Airways, Alaska, Hawaiian, ect for the teet of the DOT. I have no doubt you'll get awarded some new routes, but it'll be a while (20 years) before you could organically grow to the size of Delta or United.

As I said before, it's a hard pill to swallow. You guys deserve industry standard; you just don't deserve what will happen if you get it.
Why can't American Pay their pilots industry standard? There are guys out there flying 737 making more than widebody captains at the Legacy carriers! And they are a Low Cost Carrier. Stop letting management implant stuff in your head. If they shifted and extra 25 cents per seat per hr on a -80 to the pilots that would be $35 extra. 20 more for the Captain and 15 for the FO. IF the airlines collectively wanted to pay their pilots more they could raise ticket prices by a minuscule amount and be able to do so, but they want to drive cost down...
Yeah, and that's $35 less that the blood suckers would get. Keep dreaming.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:54 AM
  #43  
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]Equity stake distribution to members is still TBD by APA BOD. It's complicated - Lots of tax and legal implications to consider.[/QUOTE]

Understandably so, but are they going to cut up the pie in equal parts, or?????? Hopefully we don't see some fleecing as the upper management of AMR has been known to do. If we are all one governed body, then to me the decision would be easy, 13.5% divided by all those on the American Airlines pilot seniority list. For those on furlough, put it in escrow, give it to guys once they return.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by What View Post
Why can't American Pay their pilots industry standard? There are guys out there flying 737 making more than widebody captains at the Legacy carriers! And they are a Low Cost Carrier. Stop letting management implant stuff in your head. If they shifted and extra 25 cents per seat per hr on a -80 to the pilots that would be $35 extra. 20 more for the Captain and 15 for the FO. IF the airlines collectively wanted to pay their pilots more they could raise ticket prices by a minuscule amount and be able to do so, but they want to drive cost down...
Why ?

Because they don't have to. The majority of AA pilots are willing to work for less and on Dec. 7, that will almost certainly be confirmed. Love to be wrong, but convinced I'm correct.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
Why ?

Because they don't have to. The majority of AA pilots are willing to work for less and on Dec. 7, that will almost certainly be confirmed. Love to be wrong, but convinced I'm correct.
You are correct, AA pilots will follow the lead of all the other airline pilot groups as they accept peanuts just to keep "their" (?) airline afloat. When will you fools wake up and realize that the system is way beyond rigged against you, especially as long as you continue to act like it is 1975? Here is a news flash: THE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE FAILED YOU! THE ASSOCIATIONS ARE OBSOLETE! Now what are you going to do about it? Read your, pilot, history and learn or you will continue to repeat your mistakes.
Management has been successful in destroying the profession because they understand how screwed up the current system of airline pilot labor representation actually is. Until pilots come together as one group you will continue to flounder. The self-proclaimed leaders of all the "associations" are quick to tell you why a single organization to represent ALL commercial pilots won't work but they cannot point to any post deregulation successes, especially since pilots have lost over 50 percent of their purchasing power since 1978, not to mention the loss of respect and dignity the profession once enjoyed.
Now please do not think that what is needed involves a national seniority list. Unfortunately when anyone mentions one voice for pilots it is immediately assumed that an NSL is the objective, far from it. In fact if you want to see real turmoil just try to arrange the current pilots into one list, much less apply it, and watch the fur fly. What is required for the advancement of the profession is a single contract with a single pay scale, work rules, etc. And this is only the beginning. There is much more to this solution and it has many hurdles to concur, but unless a movement is begun to change the system, well a former ALPA president recognized this fact over 22 years ago: “I believe unequivocally that anything less than a strong centralized national union in today’s environment is suicide for the profession and eventually for every pilot group.” Captain Hank Duffy, outgoing ALPA president, October, 1990.
Because they have little knowledge of or respect for their history, the AA pilots will accept their contract as will the chumps at CAL/UAL. Sad, very sad.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6 View Post
You are correct, AA pilots will follow the lead of all the other airline pilot groups as they accept peanuts just to keep "their" (?) airline afloat. When will you fools wake up and realize that the system is way beyond rigged against you, especially as long as you continue to act like it is 1975? Here is a news flash: THE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE FAILED YOU! THE ASSOCIATIONS ARE OBSOLETE! Now what are you going to do about it? Read your, pilot, history and learn or you will continue to repeat your mistakes.
Management has been successful in destroying the profession because they understand how screwed up the current system of airline pilot labor representation actually is. Until pilots come together as one group you will continue to flounder. The self-proclaimed leaders of all the "associations" are quick to tell you why a single organization to represent ALL commercial pilots won't work but they cannot point to any post deregulation successes, especially since pilots have lost over 50 percent of their purchasing power since 1978, not to mention the loss of respect and dignity the profession once enjoyed.
Now please do not think that what is needed involves a national seniority list. Unfortunately when anyone mentions one voice for pilots it is immediately assumed that an NSL is the objective, far from it. In fact if you want to see real turmoil just try to arrange the current pilots into one list, much less apply it, and watch the fur fly. What is required for the advancement of the profession is a single contract with a single pay scale, work rules, etc. And this is only the beginning. There is much more to this solution and it has many hurdles to concur, but unless a movement is begun to change the system, well a former ALPA president recognized this fact over 22 years ago: “I believe unequivocally that anything less than a strong centralized national union in today’s environment is suicide for the profession and eventually for every pilot group.” Captain Hank Duffy, outgoing ALPA president, October, 1990.
Because they have little knowledge of or respect for their history, the AA pilots will accept their contract as will the chumps at CAL/UAL. Sad, very sad.
A single organization representing all pilots is illegal under the RLA act. That is why ALPA is a association. Each airline under ALPA functions as a independent union. It is also illegal under the RLA to try and work under one set of wage and work rules. Plumbers can do it but pilots can not. All pilots should read and understand the RLA. A attempt was made a few years ago to remove Fedex from the RLA because they don't belong there. This spooked Fred Smith so bad that he threatened to cancel every single Boeing order and buy all Airbus. He values the RLA so highly that he actually has a clause written into every Boeing purchase that the contract is void if the RLA is changed or Fedex removed from its protection. Boeing and the Senators from the states Boeing does business quickly killed the bill to pull Fedex from the RLA.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
A single organization representing all pilots is illegal under the RLA act. That is why ALPA is a association. Each airline under ALPA functions as a independent union. It is also illegal under the RLA to try and work under one set of wage and work rules. Plumbers can do it but pilots can not. All pilots should read and understand the RLA. A attempt was made a few years ago to remove Fedex from the RLA because they don't belong there. This spooked Fred Smith so bad that he threatened to cancel every single Boeing order and buy all Airbus. He values the RLA so highly that he actually has a clause written into every Boeing purchase that the contract is void if the RLA is changed or Fedex removed from its protection. Boeing and the Senators from the states Boeing does business quickly killed the bill to pull Fedex from the RLA.
If this is correct, and for the sake of argument we will assume it is so, why haven't the associations acted to get out of the RLA or at least have it amended? People act like this law, written for the railroads in the late 1920's, is written in stone, or sent down from the Lord above, well it is not. All laws are amendable or can be abolished. Remember Prohibition? Unfortunately the RLA gives the associations’ credence and therefore justifies their current organization and therefore power in the profession. It has been to long since the associations put the welfare of the profession ahead of their own struggle for power and their very existence. Even a few simple amendments would help to level the playing field but when asked if ALPA was working to amend or abolish the RLA an ALPA official said” It isn’t even on our radar.”
The idea of an equal pay system, therefore equal labor costs across the industry, has been well received by airline managers at some of the leading legacy carriers. Just think of the savings when you no longer have to try to beat your competitor in labor costs plus if done as projected the contract could almost be perpetual, benefiting management and labor. It is time to think out of the box folks. Is the next generation so absorbed in Ipads and Facebook that they will let this once proud and profitable profession sink even further into the abyss?

Last edited by Night Hawk 6; 11-27-2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:17 PM
  #48  
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Operation orange has been attacking the RLA for a long time now, and yet no one takes them seriously, which I find a bit sad. There's a lot of good thought there.

Night Hawk 6, you say what everyone knows already. The problem is, nothing can be done until the RLA is history. Without the ability to withhold services, we have no power. Zero. Zip.

We can picket, cry, sulk, but so long as federal judges can sanction our unions for everything they have, so long as Presidential powers can force us to go back to work, nothing is going to change. Management holds all the cards, and it's a royal flush.

Until the RLA is history: This is why our only choice at AA, unless we want to fold and vote yes, is to disband the APA as a legal entity and simply distribute all the assets to the members.

No union = 7,500 independent contractors. Nobody to throw in jail. Nobody to fine 20 million dollars.

Each pilot goes on strike individually. The water will be bloody. There will be firings right and left, draconian pronunciations, threats. But a federal judge cannot sanction 7,500 pilots each by name, individually.

There'll be scabs... but not enough to keep AA afloat.

If we vote NO on Dec 7, and AA's performance magically matches what happened in October, the company has solid evidence of an illegal job action, and we are back to square one, with the judge sanctioning the APA for millions and ordering us to operate "status quo."
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:41 PM
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If AMR uses DAL and UAL as "industry standard" scope, why not pay the pilots the same way? "Industry standard" right?
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:25 PM
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So how long has it been since the last contract went up? or how long has APA been negotiating with AA management?
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