Recent retirement numbers?
 

Anyone have the actual retirement numbers for the last couple/few months?

January 1, 2013 2 retirements at AA. Not a joke.

Ouch.. that hurts... lol

But in the next 40 years almost all AA pilots will have retired!

I'll still be 29 then right?

Half dozen Feb 1(Jan. retirees). It's the crack in the dam.

are these mostly age 65'ers or are guys bailing sooner

In the jumpseat on AA seems a lot of people say they're leaving early. I always wonder how much of that is just talk. I'm sure some do but just got the feeling most were just talking about it.

I don't think you'll see many retirements until they cash their 13.5% check.

How will that work?
Makes sense but I don't know much about it. Do you think a bunch of people are going to eject after that?

Pilots talk big, are selfish, and don't know how to plan.

Its just talk.

My understanding is that any AA pilot on property when the 13.5 equity establishment period(not the official term I know) is still eligible to receive their share even if they retire before its distributed. So I don't think that's impacting their decision-making process.

I don't get the "selfish" remark though. The length of one's career is solely up to the individual and a personal choice. Whether one chooses to retire early or remain till age 65 shouldn't label one as selfish! They do have a plan, but others don't get to decide what that is or should be!

Selfish has to do with any mainline pilot voting to outsource boatloads of flying to 'regionals' flying 86,000 jets on mainline routes. Thinking about themselves instead of people in their 20s and 30s trying to establish themselves in this career.

IE, sustaining thousands of express/eagle/connection jobs at food stamp wages, in order to sustain 'mainline' wages.

The shrinking of the middle class, pulling up the rope as they call it.

We are always stronger when we work together, instead of letting management fragment us apart.

Not sure I get your point. The legal retirement age is 65yo. Are you suggesting it shouldn't be a personal choice and right for a pilot to decide when he will retire and that to follow someone's else notion of when he should retire is being selfish?

Sounds like the "get out of my seat" arguments we've heard through the years.

Enter Content

I don't think anyone's scope clause allows 86,000 RJ's. I'll have to check, but that sounds a bit on the high-side. As for the rest of your post, that fight was forfeited long ago. Seeing how you feel this way, my advice is to put your thrust-lever hand where your mouth is and pull it back and walk away from the beloved RJ. Many pilots feel differently than you do and advocate more and larger jets at their regionals, thus there's plenty of "selling out" going around.

86000 lbs weight

DAL, UAL, AMR, and LCC all have that limitation of 86,000 pounds for regional airplanes. This allows E170/E175 and CRJ 900s. Our E175s actually have a MTOW of 89,000 pounds, for which there is a cutout in DAL's scope language for our 36 airplanes that were a part of the merger of NWA/CPZ with Delta Air Lines. CPZ was by default because they were wholly owned by NWA at the time of merger.

I also agree with nwa757, as do the vast amount of pilots here in regional pilot purgatory. As long as mainline pilots sell out the industry and are selfish and greedy, we (the regionals) will exist. Most of the regional pilots want mainline jobs that pay decently and have MUCH better benefits than any regional.

Ahh, yeah dude...........I get all that. My "86,000 RJ" reference was sarcasm, but it apparently sailed over the heads of a few of you guys. :cool:

Who would have a scope clause allowing 86,000 RJ's ?

It's not only always someone elses fault, it's apparently someone elses sole responsibility to solve the problem. If it wasn't also for the hordes of pilots flocking to the shinest RJ available and even jumping regionals for the fastest upgrades like Go Jets with no consideration of what it pays, we wouldn't have this problem.

Since you're not part of the solution either, I think you and your pal should refrain from throwing rocks at others on this.

Just a simple question... is outsourcing half your flying/jobs ok or not?

There's not much more to it that that... it's a moral issue. DAL pilots just took pay raises to allow more larger RJs, same with UAL, now AMR is loosening scope as well. AMR through bankruptcy, DAL through straight up pay raises.

.....and yes, I forgot to write lbs.

"Regionals" then:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../6/0238606.jpg

"Regionals" now:

http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-c...ican-Eagle.jpg

And, as long as regional pilots keep accepting jobs that pay insultingly low wages with low class benefits - many of these jobs being in mainline aircraft, you (the regionals) will continue to exist.

This coin has two sides; and blame cannot be assessed to be entirely on one side or the other. After all, one might say that you (the regional pilots) are selfish and greedy for flight hours and shiny jets, and that the supply of willing bodies fosters and perpetuates your own suffering in regional pilot purgatory.

My point still is valid. I agree that the unions have fumbled the ball and still refuse to take a stand on maximum recovery of flying, but as long as wide-eyed junkies hopelessly intoxicated by SJS come running when the pushers wave their drug in the air and only concerned with immediate gratification will those pushers in management continue to make their drug available. They're getting rich (for now) and we're ALL getting poorer. Lets hope the supply of flying crackheads does disappear in the near future as it appears to be doing and the drug market for these birds either makes them obsolete or forces them to mainline along with more appropriate compensation.

BTW, you need to go well back before that BA-4100 to at least the BE-99 and Metroliner.

I think in the future regionals will shrink more percentage wise.. They will have to in order to get enough pilots. I wouldn't say Mainlines are sellouts. As the industry evolves I also think 3 huge mainline airlines will have the power to bring back more flying to the mainlines. USair you could say they sold out but I and I'm sure many thought for sure they were on the brink of going out of business and just tried to save their own butts. Once someone lowers the bar like that many other weak airlines have to in order to survive. APA was given a dollar amount to work with and the EJET was low on priority to put money into that area of the contract. At least they will most likely get some 190s. Next contract should see more improvement.

They are no longer "Regionals" they are simply smaller airlines. In the early 1980's APA allowed an exception to its scope clause under the guise that eagle would be the seed in markets into which AA would move as the business grew. Talk about the camel getting into the tent. Regionals today are simply there to outsource flying from the mainline in order to undercut wages and working conditions. Regionals make no economic since and cannot survive on their own. Pilots have again been played as fools and lured into believing that a stint at a regional is the ticket to the mainline when in reality the percentage of regional pilots that make it to a mainline today, at an age that will provide for a long and prosperous career, is dwindling. If there was a real pilots union where all pilots were properly and equally represented this system would go away in a very short time. The associations have never fully understood how to handle this situation while management has taken the profession to new lows. Very sad!

Spot on...

Yep. As I've said before, even in the best of circumstances, the majority of regional pilots will never make it to a major airline. This has always been the case as there has always been more applicants than slots. If and when AA opens up a hiring window soon, they'll get 10,000 apps for 1000 slots or a 1-in-10 chance for any given applicant.

A LOT of pilots will simply have to accept the larger RJ as the final stop and many pilots are OK with that after they hit 40 or so with 15 years in and become senior. Of course, the future for regionals looks like it will morph into the whipsaw contract world and thus top end compensation will likely suffer in the future.

An RJ F/O shortage may be the best thing for the profession IMO.

Nope. The best thing for the profession, the only thing that will provide the profession with what it deserves, is labor representation that achieves one very basic objective: Equal pay for equal work. As long as the associations continue to allow airline management to slap them around while the association "leaders" tell the membership to accept crumbs, well it will be a long career and your only reward will be that you get to enjoy all the respect you get as you walk through the airport, that is after doing your daily grope with TSA.

Nope. The best thing for the profession is something that is actually attainable and not mired in fantasy. Fact is, labor representation for pilots is hopelessly and irretrievable broken. To change that would require the collective will of pilots and recent events over the last decade or two have proven time and again at multiple airlines, that won't happen. Pilots truly are their own worst enemies and that is why they are such pushovers for talentless executives. Unfortunately then, we must concentrate on realistic solutions and in this case, the law of supply and demand is the best bet. Since we collectively are unwilling to change our world for the better, we must now rely on outside forces. Hopefully, the ebb and flow that is part of the real world will soon make its inevitable appearance in this profession as the fruits of managements zeal to push the financial envelope regarding pilot compensation ever downward produces the obvious result. The sooner, the better. If airlines want to have a product, they'll soon have no alternative but to staff that product with skilled labor that requires upwards of $25,000 to become certified and competent in their machinery and to do that in the future, it will require improved compensation and QWL. The other option is to exit the business, either voluntarily or otherwise.

We can only hope it becomes a crisis and I think it ultimately will. Clearly the level of intoxication for the RJ hasn't waned and the primary thing that makes the smaller jets so desirable is low-cost labor, especially pilots. The dopes in airline management are either in deep denial or like a certain group are again embracing the philosophy of "kicking the can" and "limping along" waiting until the last minute to REACT to an abvious impending crisis, instead of being proactive and avoiding or minimizing it. Just like pilots, airline management also has a history of being predictable to a fault and in this case, it looks like they are right on glideslope for their next faliure and IMO, the fireball short of the runway this time will be a doozy.

Again, I simply cannot wait to enjoy that imminent show and I expect an Oscar performance from the Keystone kids of airline management. :rolleyes:

You are absolutely correct when you say pilots are their own worst enemies but waiting and hoping for events outside of our profession to effect a positive change is what the profession has been doing for over 8 decades. Here is a news flash: airline management is well aware of the prospects for the pilot workforce. There will come a time in the not to distant future when airline management will propose single pilot operations with flights monitored, if not actually controlled from the ground, yes drones. Airline management will not set idle and allow outside events effect their earnings, only we pilots would be so foolish.

I'm skeptical of that coming to fruition. That would require a redesign and recertification of every plane out there or all new designs. That will take a decade or more. At any rate, that will be well past the impending mushroom cloud at the approach end of their runway to success for this industry and this bird is approaching minimums with 3 of 4 engines out (due to mismanaged fuel exhaustion) and the gear stuck down.

Hope your prediction of a looming shortage of qualified and competent pilots creates a crisis for airline management. As certain politicians like to say, “never waste a crisis" but as we have seen throughout our history pilots seem to be adverse to taking advantage when it becomes available instead opting to "work with management" as some kind of noble gesture that they foolishly believe will reap a future reward from management. There are those who make things happen, those that watch what happens and those that wonder what happened. Unfortunately most pilots seem very content in the last two categories and strike out at the few who try to venture into the first category.

Tough to see what unions or pilots can do to mitigate this likelyhood if they wanted to. A pure outside force that no one can control. Of course, I suppose "age 70" might help..............:eek:

The new ATP rule with 500 hrs of XC greater than 50nm is going to be very interesting.

It would be like the associations, pilots do not have a union, to "Help" the company by petitioning the FAA to cut some of the new requirements and allow companies to hire and "train to proficiency" anyone who has a pulse. Age 70 will be a given if the shortage you predict happens as there are indeed those working to eliminate age restrictions, period. APA has always been far to accommodating to management but then again what do you expect from a system where-by the most direct way to a management job or at least a check airman position is through the NO and BOD jobs at APA.

Age 70 LOL...Early bird special flight...bedtime at 8:30pm...