Originally Posted by R57 relay

I agree with you premise about rigs, but SW is a bit of a different animal. Their domestic only, high utilization schedule helps that equation a lot.

Back around 1992 US Air pilots (by vote of the ALPA MEC) changed our rigs to what DL had. We traded them for a pretty good pay raise. We are now making less than we did then, but we didn't get the rigs back! We immediately went from 23-26 hour 4 days and 17-18 hour 3days to pretty much 20 hour 4 days and 15 hour 3 days. We agreed to the "average day" instead of a hard min day so now often we fly 3 hard days then 1 leg back home on the 4th.

I didn't start this thread to bash the APA or AA pilots. TQ NOLA made a good point that the union had to make a decision that they felt benefited the pilot group best. Many long haul trips are paid no rig at all, so not all pilots would benefit by the long rate or 1:3.25 rig.

I just think a big change is coming at the end of the year and with the type network AA will operate there will be some very long overnights. We have one more bite at the apple with the JCBA, and we all need to make our thoughts known to our reps.

For all the east/west fighting, the US NAC had signed off on the long rate.

Originally Posted by R57 relay

TQ NOLA made a good point that the union had to make a decision that they felt benefited the pilot group best. Many long haul trips are paid no rig at all, so not all pilots would benefit by the long rate or 1:3.25 rig.

Originally Posted by Bad-Andy

That could be better stated as "APA made a decision that benefited themselves" (or the majority of their main constituents -- senior dudes) the best. On one hand, we should have seen this coming -- after all, they are going to show us how a "real union" does things (kind of like "cool northern efficiency" back in the day...). On the other hand, it probably should not surprise us that the big group pays lip-service to the small group, and moves forward doing whatever they want, regardless of the cost to the smaller group (sound familiar????).

The 1980's mentality that AA management so espoused (everything for the top/management, regardless of the cost to the bottom/workers) is also alive and well in the APA (focus on the senior "dudes" regardless of the cost to the junior "kids"). ("Don't worry, you'll be senior someday, 'Son'"). Until we get past that attitude (and start looking at contract provisions that protect everyone equally), we'll always have a sub-standard contract.

Anyone that didn't see this coming (East or West) had their head in the sand (or somewhere else....). I'm sure that this is just one of the many things coming....

Originally Posted by Godzilla

The West has a 5:15 per day trip rig.
That would make a three day trip to Lima worth 5:15
They also have pay protection for trips that are cancelled.
Apa also bargained away 60 month pay protection whatever that is.
.
I thought the 522 mil or 87 mil a year was there to improve the contract,not to bargain away items already in the MOU.

Looks like the AA pay increases percentages are just coming up to what was already in the US Air Mou that was voted on by actual union constituents.

One has to wonder what APA will bargain away next with their superior negotiating skills.
Perhaps the retrospective pay scheme.

Originally Posted by Bad-Andy

That could be better stated as "APA made a decision that benefited themselves" (or the majority of their main constituents -- senior dudes) the best. On one hand, we should have seen this coming -- after all, they are going to show us how a "real union" does things (kind of like "cool northern efficiency" back in the day...). On the other hand, it probably should not surprise us that the big group pays lip-service to the small group, and moves forward doing whatever they want, regardless of the cost to the smaller group (sound familiar????).

The 1980's mentality that AA management so espoused (everything for the top/management, regardless of the cost to the bottom/workers) is also alive and well in the APA (focus on the senior "dudes" regardless of the cost to the junior "kids"). ("Don't worry, you'll be senior someday, 'Son'"). Until we get past that attitude (and start looking at contract provisions that protect everyone equally), we'll always have a sub-standard contract.

Anyone that didn't see this coming (East or West) had their head in the sand (or somewhere else....). I'm sure that this is just one of the many things coming....

Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6

APA is no different from any other pilot "association" in that they suffer from the "Lucy Syndrome" falsely believing that management can be trusted, and why not, most of the APA officers and BOD end up in management positions. Why do pilots accept the idea that doing the same work in the same environment should be compensated differently just because they wear different uniforms? Equal pay for equal work, period. "Associations" do not make a pilots UNION.

Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6

APA is no different from any other pilot "association" in that they suffer from the "Lucy Syndrome" falsely believing that management can be trusted, and why not, most of the APA officers and BOD end up in management positions.

Originally Posted by Night Hawk 6

APA is no different from any other pilot "association" in that they suffer from the "Lucy Syndrome" falsely believing that management can be trusted, and why not, most of the APA officers and BOD end up in management positions. Why do pilots accept the idea that doing the same work in the same environment should be compensated differently just because they wear different uniforms? Equal pay for equal work, period. "Associations" do not make a pilots UNION.