Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Major > American
AA Remaining furloughee analysis? >

AA Remaining furloughee analysis?

Notices

AA Remaining furloughee analysis?

Old 01-31-2014, 01:39 PM
  #41  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Default

Originally Posted by 70Espada View Post
I have no reason to think poorly of the APA, it's just the fact that they don't represent me yet. They will and should do what is in the best interest of their members. I look forward to being a member one day.
I don't think it's in APA's best interest to screw anyone. They know that at some point everyone will be under their representational umbrella and if they go out of their way to screw large numbers of future members like the entire west, they just weaken themselves in the long run, at least I would HOPE they understand that.

Originally Posted by 70Espada View Post
USAPA is controlled by east pilots and they are a fractured group. There are pilots on the east that want to punish guys like me because of an arbitration that was done by a neutral third party. Some of those pilots don't want to just put me below the furloughed pilots, they want me below the new hires that were hired at OUR airline long after I was. Not all east pilots are out to harm the west. There are some good guys/gals out east and even in the union, but because of USAPA's track record I don't have a lot of faith in a fair and equitable process.
Well, likewise, I would think (and hope) USAPA would think long and hard about another bull-in-the-china-shop approach. If that approach is selected and it backfires, they wont have the same option as the last SLI. It would seem them slamming their straight DOH list on the table would not be a good start (as is a non-starter anyway negotiation or arbitration), but neither are they likely going to place the Nic list either which will then disappoint many on the west and perhaps resulting in Leo the lion making another legal growl. Putting both lists on the table without proposing their own methodology of how to integrate those would seem to make then attempting to negotiate how to integrate them with AA kind of pointless. Ultimately, it would seem to me that the East/West result will be neither Nic nor foul. As far as fair and equitable, that's a hope we ALL will have to place on the arbitrator as the players have their own versions of what that is.
eaglefly is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 01:49 PM
  #42  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Default

Originally Posted by R57 relay View Post
I believe the jcba has to be done before arbitration starts, not negotiations. U think the time for negotiations will be up within a couple of months.

Don't give a negotiated sli much chance.
My understanding is that the JCBA has to in place first, then negotiations for the SLI. They are supposedly negotiating "protocol" for the SLI negotiating process, but then it would seem all focus would first be on the finalizing the JCBA. I doubt they would do both concurrently, even if they could. The last I heard a few days ago was that it might take as long as 6 months for the JCBA to be settled. Then, if I remember correctly, a 30-day negotiating period which could be extended (another 30-days ?) and then arbitration with I think up to 6 months for award putting the deal in the mid 2015 range. I would think some want a faster track (Parker) while others may not. The arbitration process is tough to rush though and this could be a VERY complicated arbitration.

I agree though, a negotiated settlement is highly unlikely.
eaglefly is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:08 PM
  #43  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 481
Default

Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
I don't think it's in APA's best interest to screw anyone. They know that at some point everyone will be under their representational umbrella and if they go out of their way to screw large numbers of future members like the entire west, they just weaken themselves in the long run, at least I would HOPE they understand that.
I could introduce you to a couple of TWA pilots that would disagree with you. Sat a jumpseat on an American flight...the first thing the captain told me was that they weren't American pilots, they were TWA pilots. Both fellas spent the next 3 hours explaining to me how APA abused them during their integration. They were both, obviously, very bitter about how they perceived they were treated. What has it been 13+ years now since that integration? So, please don't act like the APA rides around on white horses and are only interested in truth, justice and fairness.

To be fair, I have friends at AA that say the TWA guys made out like bandits, etc, etc. Who knows who is right. Guess that depends on where you sit. I do know this, though. APA is going to do everything in their power to make sure their senior guys are as advantaged as possible. The USAPA East guys will do the same for the East senior folks (not the third listers) and the USAPA West representatives will do the same for the West folk. The USAPA third listers won't have anyone fighting for them. The only thing a third lister has going for them is that, as my AA friends tell me, the APA couldn't care less about their junior guys...so we have that going for us.
kingairip is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:16 PM
  #44  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 117
Default

Originally Posted by kingairip View Post
quote:





Originally posted by eaglefly


i don't think it's in apa's best interest to screw anyone. They know that at some point everyone will be under their representational umbrella and if they go out of their way to screw large numbers of future members like the entire west, they just weaken themselves in the long run, at least i would hope they understand that.




I could introduce you to a couple of twa pilots that would disagree with you. Sat a jumpseat on an american flight...the first thing the captain told me was that they weren't american pilots, they were twa pilots. Both fellas spent the next 3 hours explaining to me how apa abused them during their integration. They were both, obviously, very bitter about how they perceived they were treated. What has it been 13+ years now since that integration? So, please don't act like the apa rides around on white horses and are only interested in truth, justice and fairness.

To be fair, i have friends at aa that say the twa guys made out like bandits, etc, etc. Who knows who is right. Guess that depends on where you sit. I do know this, though. Apa is going to do everything in their power to make sure their senior guys are as advantaged as possible. The usapa east guys will do the same for the east senior folks (not the third listers) and the usapa west representatives will do the same for the west folk. The usapa third listers won't have anyone fighting for them. The only thing a third lister has going for them is that, as my aa friends tell me, the apa couldn't care less about their junior guys...so we have that going for us.
"which is nice"
YourFnout is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:19 PM
  #45  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Default

Originally Posted by kingairip View Post
I could introduce you to a couple of TWA pilots that would disagree with you. Sat a jumpseat on an American flight...the first thing the captain told me was that they weren't American pilots, they were TWA pilots. Both fellas spent the next 3 hours explaining to me how APA abused them during their integration. They were both, obviously, very bitter about how they perceived they were treated. What has it been 13+ years now since that integration? So, please don't act like the APA rides around on white horses and are only interested in truth, justice and fairness.

To be fair, I have friends at AA that say the TWA guys made out like bandits, etc, etc. Who knows who is right. Guess that depends on where you sit. I do know this, though. APA is going to do everything in their power to make sure their senior guys are as advantaged as possible. The USAPA East guys will do the same for the East senior folks (not the third listers) and the USAPA West representatives will do the same for the West folk. The USAPA third listers won't have anyone fighting for them. The only thing a third lister has going for them is that, as my AA friends tell me, the APA couldn't care less about their junior guys...so we have that going for us.
This is all the more reason for APA to walk a different line. There are others reasons. Will APA do that ? No one can say for sure and I can assure you former AE flows are just as at risk from APA and their "senior is best" mentality then any other sub-group of pilots involved. At any rate, McCaskill-Bond exists now and what occurred in the past regarding TWA is almost certain to not occur again. Yes, some former TWA pilots will never consider themselves AA pilots and that's their choice if that's how they choose to see themselves for the rest if their days.
eaglefly is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:59 PM
  #46  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Dolphinflyer's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 675
Default

Originally Posted by kingairip View Post
I could introduce you to a couple of TWA pilots that would disagree with you. Sat a jumpseat on an American flight...the first thing the captain told me was that they weren't American pilots, they were TWA pilots. Both fellas spent the next 3 hours explaining to me how APA abused them during their integration. They were both, obviously, very bitter about how they perceived they were treated. What has it been 13+ years now since that integration? So, please don't act like the APA rides around on white horses and are only interested in truth, justice and fairness.

To be fair, I have friends at AA that say the TWA guys made out like bandits, etc, etc. Who knows who is right. Guess that depends on where you sit. I do know this, though. APA is going to do everything in their power to make sure their senior guys are as advantaged as possible. The USAPA East guys will do the same for the East senior folks (not the third listers) and the USAPA West representatives will do the same for the West folk. The USAPA third listers won't have anyone fighting for them. The only thing a third lister has going for them is that, as my AA friends tell me, the APA couldn't care less about their junior guys...so we have that going for us.
The TWA guys probably didn't mention to you that their former flying is 95% gone. There is probably enough left to support 75 former TWA Captains. Is that a problem or concern for them? Nope. The more vocal ones say they still deserve nearly 1100 Captain slots.

After AirCal and Reno were bought and dismantled, the TWA SLI was set up to protect AA pilots from the disaster in case AA shut down the TWA system.

Guess what? AMR shut down the TWA system. Even if they kept it as a moderate size hub, the TWA guys would have the fastest upgrades in the system.

Every STL bid line for the last 10 years has consisted of 70+ hours of flying AA has done for 30 years and 10 hours of former TWA routes.

To put it perspective, it's like Parker buying a AA consisting of DFW and MIA. He then shuts down DFW and MIA flying. The remaining AA guys fly all their trips out of CLT, PHX and DCA and then scream like banshees that they are getting mistreated.
Dolphinflyer is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 04:12 PM
  #47  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Default

Originally Posted by kingairip View Post
I could introduce you to a couple of TWA pilots that would disagree with you. Sat a jumpseat on an American flight...the first thing the captain told me was that they weren't American pilots, they were TWA pilots. Both fellas spent the next 3 hours explaining to me how APA abused them during their integration. They were both, obviously, very bitter about how they perceived they were treated. What has it been 13+ years now since that integration? So, please don't act like the APA rides around on white horses and are only interested in truth, justice and fairness.

To be fair, I have friends at AA that say the TWA guys made out like bandits, etc, etc. Who knows who is right. Guess that depends on where you sit. I do know this, though. APA is going to do everything in their power to make sure their senior guys are as advantaged as possible. The USAPA East guys will do the same for the East senior folks (not the third listers) and the USAPA West representatives will do the same for the West folk. The USAPA third listers won't have anyone fighting for them. The only thing a third lister has going for them is that, as my AA friends tell me, the APA couldn't care less about their junior guys...so we have that going for us.

I agree the APA will pull out all stops and won't give one thought to any law suit that might happen as a result. The TWA/ALPA 13+ year fight is perfect proof that APA has plenty of skill at this game.

I have long expected that the end result will be like UAL/CAL with large weighting for the APA wide bodies.

Under the new MOU we no longer have "third listers". We have two lists at USAir and I am happy to argue relative position all the way up and down. Most if not all of the so called third listers should be senior to the junior West guys, and only our newest hires in the last year should be mixed in with the junior guys on the West and APA.

But what do I know. I'm just along for the ride and enjoying every new bid that comes out as we wait.
PurpleTurtle is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 04:12 PM
  #48  
Line Holder
 
70Espada's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: FO
Posts: 92
Default

Originally Posted by kingairip View Post
The USAPA East guys will do the same for the East senior folks (not the third listers) and the USAPA West representatives will do the same for the West folk.
You didn't hear? The west reps quit today. Evidently they were being used as token window dressings with no real intention of allowing them any real input. Very disapointed, unfortunately not surprised.
70Espada is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 04:16 PM
  #49  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Default

Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer View Post
The TWA guys probably didn't mention to you that their former flying is 95% gone. There is probably enough left to support 75 former TWA Captains. Is that a problem or concern for them? Nope. The more vocal ones say they still deserve nearly 1100 Captain slots.

After AirCal and Reno were bought and dismantled, the TWA SLI was set up to protect AA pilots from the disaster in case AA shut down the TWA system.

Guess what? AMR shut down the TWA system. Even if they kept it as a moderate size hub, the TWA guys would have the fastest upgrades in the system.

Every STL bid line for the last 10 years has consisted of 70+ hours of flying AA has done for 30 years and 10 hours of former TWA routes.

To put it perspective, it's like Parker buying a AA consisting of DFW and MIA. He then shuts down DFW and MIA flying. The remaining AA guys fly all their trips out of CLT, PHX and DCA and then scream like banshees that they are getting mistreated.

We get it. The former LAS and PHX crews do 25% of their flying on CLT, PHL, DCA routes. We totally get it.
PurpleTurtle is offline  
Old 01-31-2014, 04:17 PM
  #50  
Line Holder
 
70Espada's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: FO
Posts: 92
Default

Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle View Post
I agree the APA will pull out all stops and won't give one thought to any law suit that might happen as a result. The TWA/ALPA 13+ year fight is perfect proof that APA has plenty of skill at this game.

I have long expected that the end result will be like UAL/CAL with large weighting for the APA wide bodies.

Under the new MOU we no longer have "third listers". We have two lists at USAir and I am happy to argue relative position all the way up and down. Most if not all of the so called third listers should be senior to the junior West guys, and only our newest hires in the last year should be mixed in with the junior guys on the West and APA.

But what do I know. I'm just along for the ride and enjoying every new bid that comes out as we wait.
Wow, aren't you a piece of work. Let me guess, furloughed at the time of our merger?
70Espada is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
PilotAnalyst
Major
65
10-12-2022 05:31 AM
R57 relay
American
93
12-08-2013 07:33 PM
tracer997
Technical
12
01-29-2011 05:45 PM
EWRflyr
Major
14
10-10-2010 10:37 AM
FredtheGnome
Money Talk
2
11-02-2006 04:54 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices