AA Remaining furloughee analysis?
#12
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
On May 1st, 2012 there were 1665 AA furloughs:
Trogdor, all the answers you seek and more are here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...1DIIxmEE#t=150
Okay, but on a more serious note... The most senior involuntary furlough on January 8th, 2013 had less than 8 months of LOS. This is because Eagle pilots sued to have all TWA LCC pilots stripped of their LOS and legally regarded as new hires.
I'd like to know how many AA pilots were on involuntary furlough, but later deferred recall and never completed a cumulative year LOS probationary period? Can anyone answer this?
Whether or not a pilot is on involuntary or voluntary furloughed status at the time of the merger will be a noteworthy issue.
The AA list will not be reordered. All voluntary furloughed and bypassed recall pilots will be regarded as being on property. R57 Relay is correct insinuating that involuntary furloughed pilots not on property at the time of the merger announcement may be regarded as if they would continue to be involuntarily furloughed had all voluntary furloughs/bypass pilots actually returned. In other words, involuntary furloughed and flow-thru pilots may not be granted a status holding position equal to voluntary furloughed/bypass pilots.
It is also worth mentioning that pilots who voluntarily took a furlough (I think APA calls these "Stand in Stead" pilots) may not be the same as pilots who were once involuntarily furloughed and later deferred recall. Cumulative LOS should be a consideration in measuring a pilots cumulative periods of employment before involuntary furlough and after obtaining recall/deferral status.
I don't believe an AA bypass pilot position would be frozen, but it would remain relatively constant to that of the next pilot senior to him and so on.
Third list pilots need to do a two things if they care about their seniority in this integration:
****Citation for off-property flow through pilots having no recall right:
Total Deferring Recall 1015
Furloughed Not Yet Offered Recall 650
Eagle Flow-Thru Pilots 247 (These pilots had no recall rights. [Cited below])
Furloughed Not Yet Offered Recall 650
Eagle Flow-Thru Pilots 247 (These pilots had no recall rights. [Cited below])
I'm curious about total longevity for the AA furloughs, time spent actually flying the line for AA/TWA. I know some of the most junior furloughees had less than a year on property, but obviously others had more. Can anyone offer insight into rough numbers of guys with 1, 2, 3, etc years of service?
Okay, but on a more serious note... The most senior involuntary furlough on January 8th, 2013 had less than 8 months of LOS. This is because Eagle pilots sued to have all TWA LCC pilots stripped of their LOS and legally regarded as new hires.
I'd like to know how many AA pilots were on involuntary furlough, but later deferred recall and never completed a cumulative year LOS probationary period? Can anyone answer this?
I know this is not the specific intent to discuss here, but wondering if it makes a difference whether a furloughee is actually on the property during the integration or not. What I mean is, could a pilot be put in a different place on the new list just because he/she deferred too long? Or is it just the number that counts? Any speculation on where near-bottom furlough guys may be put?
The AA list will not be reordered. All voluntary furloughed and bypassed recall pilots will be regarded as being on property. R57 Relay is correct insinuating that involuntary furloughed pilots not on property at the time of the merger announcement may be regarded as if they would continue to be involuntarily furloughed had all voluntary furloughs/bypass pilots actually returned. In other words, involuntary furloughed and flow-thru pilots may not be granted a status holding position equal to voluntary furloughed/bypass pilots.
It is also worth mentioning that pilots who voluntarily took a furlough (I think APA calls these "Stand in Stead" pilots) may not be the same as pilots who were once involuntarily furloughed and later deferred recall. Cumulative LOS should be a consideration in measuring a pilots cumulative periods of employment before involuntary furlough and after obtaining recall/deferral status.
Curious to see some hard numbers as well. From what I've read, by the time the intent to merge was announced last year, most of the AA list had been offered recall. The only guys who hadn't been offered recall had pretty low total length of service (1 year or less). This is my understanding but I haven't seen any real numbers.
I think if it shakes out as I suspect, the fears of many 3rd listers about getting totally shafted in the SLI are mostly unfounded. But we shall see. I think it is fair for guys who legally defer recall to not lose out because of it, or at least only lose an amount proportional to their voluntary deferral.
How does it work, in fact, on the AA contract? Let's say you are position 10,000 on the AA list, and are offered recall. You elect to bypass/defer. I'm assuming your position at 10,000 becomes frozen, and as there's movement on the list they guy who was 10,001 becomes 9,999 etc., passing you. So you do lose something.
I think if it shakes out as I suspect, the fears of many 3rd listers about getting totally shafted in the SLI are mostly unfounded. But we shall see. I think it is fair for guys who legally defer recall to not lose out because of it, or at least only lose an amount proportional to their voluntary deferral.
How does it work, in fact, on the AA contract? Let's say you are position 10,000 on the AA list, and are offered recall. You elect to bypass/defer. I'm assuming your position at 10,000 becomes frozen, and as there's movement on the list they guy who was 10,001 becomes 9,999 etc., passing you. So you do lose something.
Third list pilots need to do a two things if they care about their seniority in this integration:
- Read the arbitrations of LCC/AWA, DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL and study how these arbitrations affected the bottom 15% of each respective list.
- Ask the USAPA Merger Committee to pursue a bargaining stratagem rooted in the precedence of these industry standard arbitrations. Ie. Merger announcement as constructive notice date for seniority snapshot reflective of accurate carrier pre-merger expectations, LOS for AA furloughs, some blend of LOS & Relative Category/Status...
There is no need for the bottom 15% of each AAL list to be creative. This is a simple arbitration for these junior pilot cohorts.
****Citation for off-property flow through pilots having no recall right:
March 13, 2008, Arbitrator LaRocco ruled in FLO0106 that Supplement W/Letter 3 status rights did "not contain a right of recall to AE flowthrough
pilots who hold AA seniority numbers, but were not furloughed from AA." (Arbitrator George Nicolau, (2009, October 18) Opinion and Award Grv. FLO0208)
pilots who hold AA seniority numbers, but were not furloughed from AA." (Arbitrator George Nicolau, (2009, October 18) Opinion and Award Grv. FLO0208)
Last edited by flybywire44; 01-30-2014 at 06:43 PM.
#13
Does anyone know the DOH of the last AA pilot hired? I'm not talking about the Eagle flow throughs that never flew mainline, just the last guy to set foot on the property at AA, furloughed or not. I was just trying to remember when AA stopped hiring and couldn't remember if they were hiring right up to 9/11 or not. Thanks in advance.
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 393
So with the TWA being considered "new hires", that's already reflected on the current seniority list if I remember correctly, right? And that term was only used for where the TWA pilots were to be put on the list? Also, as far as pay, tthey will return to AA at their last pay status (ie 3rd year f/o)? Also, could this finding also affect where they will be put on the giant AA/US airways combined list? Just a thought
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 88
So with the TWA being considered "new hires", that's already reflected on the current seniority list if I remember correctly, right? And that term was only used for where the TWA pilots were to be put on the list? Also, as far as pay, tthey will return to AA at their last pay status (ie 3rd year f/o)? Also, could this finding also affect where they will be put on the giant AA/US airways combined list? Just a thought
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 393
Are you trying to infer that some of the "new hire" TWA pilots will be moved on the existing list? Sorry, that is NOT going to happen. Keep in mind that following the stapled TWA group is a fairly large number of "native" pilots along with a few AE flow-through mixed in. After that, there is a group of straight AE flow-through pilots. At the bottom of the list, we now have new-hires (off the street along with more flow-throughs) with the two new classes this month. If you are hoping that the union will screw a particular group like the TWA pilots by altering their position within the APA seniority list, you will be very disappointed. And yes, I AM a former TWA pilot.
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 88
Not saying that. What I'm asking is, "what does it mean that TWA pilots were considered new hires anyway?" I'm taking the same position as you on this. The current list is reflecting this , my guess is Eagle pilots got ahead of some TWA guys after the suit? And it won't affect their position on any new list in the future, right? So Airways, and whatever other companies AA merges with down the road, etc. Also, TWA pilots won't be paid as new hires, but get paid what they were getting paid 20 years ago, or however long these guys were on the street for...
As for pay, I was on third year pay when furloughed and came back at third year pay. There is a real push going on right now for the furloughed pilots to get LOS for time while furloughed, but it seems that union leadership (being mostly senior guys) has little interest in pursuing it at this time.
Eagle flow-through pilots did not get any advantage on the seniority list as a result of the law-suit. The ruling simply allowed them to flow-up ahead of more junior furloughed guys. Yes, it was a raw deal for the furloughed guys as it delayed our recall for several months.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
#19
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
On May 1st, 2012 there were 1665 AA furloughs:
Trogdor, all the answers you seek and more are here: dragon homestarrunner strong bad trogdor homestar - YouTube
Okay, but on a more serious note... The most senior involuntary furlough on January 8th, 2013 had less than 8 months of LOS. This is because Eagle pilots sued to have all TWA LCC pilots stripped of their LOS and legally regarded as new hires.
I'd like to know how many AA pilots were on involuntary furlough, but later deferred recall and never completed a cumulative year LOS probationary period? Can anyone answer this?
Total Deferring Recall 1015
Furloughed Not Yet Offered Recall 650
Eagle Flow-Thru Pilots 247 (These pilots had no recall rights. [Cited below])
Furloughed Not Yet Offered Recall 650
Eagle Flow-Thru Pilots 247 (These pilots had no recall rights. [Cited below])
Trogdor, all the answers you seek and more are here: dragon homestarrunner strong bad trogdor homestar - YouTube
Okay, but on a more serious note... The most senior involuntary furlough on January 8th, 2013 had less than 8 months of LOS. This is because Eagle pilots sued to have all TWA LCC pilots stripped of their LOS and legally regarded as new hires.
I'd like to know how many AA pilots were on involuntary furlough, but later deferred recall and never completed a cumulative year LOS probationary period? Can anyone answer this?
Of course, some Usapains claim here, "oh no, we aren't clinging to that........not us".
Not surprising and expected, even by APA by the way. For the record, Eagle pilots DID NOT "strip" anyone of anything, it was Eagle ALPA that disputed the TWA flowback situation. I get kicked around pretty good for sticking my nose in East/West Nic squabbles and am frequently told to mind my own business, yet when it occurs in reverse, that's apparently fair ground for a Usapian or their sympathizers. What essentially occurred with the Nicolau FLO-0108 situation was Eagle ALPA's disputing that former TWA pilots had flow back rights to Eagle when they weren't part of that agreement and AMR and APA unilaterally decided they were. That was a FOUR party agreement and four parties didn't agree to that interpretation and when it was forced anyway they cried foul. Nicolau opined that if they were, then Eagle pilots had were entitled to an equal number of new-hire positions at AA and that's how the bottom "chunk" of Eagle flows were awarded their AA seniority (all at the very bottom of the AA list). Many of TWA pilots who DID flow back to Eagle BTW, did so with FULL LOS for pay and were at 18-year pay as opposed to many of the AA native flow backs who were only at 1-2 year captains pay rates.
The AA list will not be reordered. All voluntary furloughed and bypassed recall pilots will be regarded as being on property. R57 Relay is correct insinuating that involuntary furloughed pilots not on property at the time of the merger announcement may be regarded as if they would continue to be involuntarily furloughed had all voluntary furloughs/bypass pilots actually returned. In other words, involuntary furloughed and flow-thru pilots may not be granted a status holding position equal to voluntary furloughed/bypass pilots.
It is also worth mentioning that pilots who voluntarily took a furlough (I think APA calls these "Stand in Stead" pilots) may not be the same as pilots who were once involuntarily furloughed and later deferred recall. Cumulative LOS should be a consideration in measuring a pilots cumulative periods of employment before involuntary furlough and after obtaining recall/deferral status.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't believe an AA bypass pilot position would be frozen, but it would remain relatively constant to that of the next pilot senior to him and so on.
Third list pilots need to do a two things if they care about their seniority in this integration:
****Citation for off-property flow through pilots having no recall right:
Third list pilots need to do a two things if they care about their seniority in this integration:
- Read the arbitrations of LCC/AWA, DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL and study how these arbitrations affected the bottom 15% of each respective list.
- Ask the USAPA Merger Committee to pursue a bargaining stratagem rooted in the precedence of these industry standard arbitrations. Ie. Merger announcement as constructive notice date for seniority snapshot reflective of accurate carrier pre-merger expectations, LOS for AA furloughs, some blend of LOS & Relative Category/Status...
There is no need for the bottom 15% of each AAL list to be creative. This is a simple arbitration for these junior pilot cohorts.
****Citation for off-property flow through pilots having no recall right:
March 13, 2008, Arbitrator LaRocco ruled in FLO0106 that Supplement W/Letter 3 status rights did "not contain a right of recall to AE flowthrough
pilots who hold AA seniority numbers, but were not furloughed from AA." (Arbitrator George Nicolau, (2009, October 18) Opinion and Award Grv. FLO0208)
pilots who hold AA seniority numbers, but were not furloughed from AA." (Arbitrator George Nicolau, (2009, October 18) Opinion and Award Grv. FLO0208)
Last edited by eaglefly; 01-31-2014 at 05:47 AM.
#20
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Are you trying to infer that some of the "new hire" TWA pilots will be moved on the existing list? Sorry, that is NOT going to happen. Keep in mind that following the stapled TWA group is a fairly large number of "native" pilots along with a few AE flow-through mixed in. After that, there is a group of straight AE flow-through pilots. At the bottom of the list, we now have new-hires (off the street along with more flow-throughs) with the two new classes this month. If you are hoping that the union will screw a particular group like the TWA pilots by altering their position within the APA seniority list, you will be very disappointed. And yes, I AM a former TWA pilot.
They're going to go for the jugular.
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