Finally, some cold hard numbers
01-06-2015, 08:19 PM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Position: A320 F/O
Posts: 442
Finally, some cold hard numbers
I inputted the Group II CA and FO rates from 2015 thru 2020, using MTA rates and proposed AA rates.
3.5% increase in MTA rates thru 2018, 3% increase in Proposed rates thru 2020.
Of note and interest, the company has accelerated the FO pay schedule around 5% at year two. It tapers down to slightly more than the MTA rate by a very small margin. In other words, all FOs will be paid a higher percentage of CA wages under the proposed rates. This starts to address a large beef of mine about the large disparity in pay between FO and CA but that is for another time.
NEW Delta rates won't effect ours in 2016 because they must be in place by July 2015 in order to be considered in the rate adjustment.
So, what's the bottom line?
A Group II FO on year 2 pay on 1/1/15 who works the min guarantee of 74 hours, will make $54,773 more over the contract period. A CA will make $110,141 over the same time. A topped out FO will make $78,076 more in the same time period.
Bumping that to 80 hours a month, the same second year FO will make $59,214 more, and the CA will make $119,071 more. The topped out FO will make $84,428 more.
Both figures do NOT include the additional 16% 401k contribution. Also all numbers don't include retro pay, which would amount to about $2k-$3k for Group II FOs and CAs.
The amount would be even higher for a new hire, because of the large increase in first year pay.
3.5% increase in MTA rates thru 2018, 3% increase in Proposed rates thru 2020.
Of note and interest, the company has accelerated the FO pay schedule around 5% at year two. It tapers down to slightly more than the MTA rate by a very small margin. In other words, all FOs will be paid a higher percentage of CA wages under the proposed rates. This starts to address a large beef of mine about the large disparity in pay between FO and CA but that is for another time.
NEW Delta rates won't effect ours in 2016 because they must be in place by July 2015 in order to be considered in the rate adjustment.
So, what's the bottom line?
A Group II FO on year 2 pay on 1/1/15 who works the min guarantee of 74 hours, will make $54,773 more over the contract period. A CA will make $110,141 over the same time. A topped out FO will make $78,076 more in the same time period.
Bumping that to 80 hours a month, the same second year FO will make $59,214 more, and the CA will make $119,071 more. The topped out FO will make $84,428 more.
Both figures do NOT include the additional 16% 401k contribution. Also all numbers don't include retro pay, which would amount to about $2k-$3k for Group II FOs and CAs.
The amount would be even higher for a new hire, because of the large increase in first year pay.
01-06-2015, 08:36 PM
#2
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by inline five
I inputted the Group II CA and FO rates from 2015 thru 2020, using MTA rates and proposed AA rates.
3.5% increase in MTA rates thru 2018, 3% increase in Proposed rates thru 2020.
Of note and interest, the company has accelerated the FO pay schedule around 5% at year two. It tapers down to slightly more than the MTA rate by a very small margin. In other words, all FOs will be paid a higher percentage of CA wages under the proposed rates. This starts to address a large beef of mine about the large disparity in pay between FO and CA but that is for another time.
NEW Delta rates won't effect ours in 2016 because they must be in place by July 2015 in order to be considered in the rate adjustment.
So, what's the bottom line?
A Group II FO on year 2 pay on 1/1/15 who works the min guarantee of 74 hours, will make $54,773 more over the contract period. A CA will make $110,141 over the same time. A topped out FO will make $78,076 more in the same time period.
Bumping that to 80 hours a month, the same second year FO will make $59,214 more, and the CA will make $119,071 more.
Both figures do NOT include the additional 16% 401k contribution. Also all numbers don't include retro pay, which would amount to about $2k-$3k for Group II FOs and CAs.
The amount would be even higher for a new hire, because of the large increase in first year pay.
3.5% increase in MTA rates thru 2018, 3% increase in Proposed rates thru 2020.
Of note and interest, the company has accelerated the FO pay schedule around 5% at year two. It tapers down to slightly more than the MTA rate by a very small margin. In other words, all FOs will be paid a higher percentage of CA wages under the proposed rates. This starts to address a large beef of mine about the large disparity in pay between FO and CA but that is for another time.
NEW Delta rates won't effect ours in 2016 because they must be in place by July 2015 in order to be considered in the rate adjustment.
So, what's the bottom line?
A Group II FO on year 2 pay on 1/1/15 who works the min guarantee of 74 hours, will make $54,773 more over the contract period. A CA will make $110,141 over the same time. A topped out FO will make $78,076 more in the same time period.
Bumping that to 80 hours a month, the same second year FO will make $59,214 more, and the CA will make $119,071 more.
Both figures do NOT include the additional 16% 401k contribution. Also all numbers don't include retro pay, which would amount to about $2k-$3k for Group II FOs and CAs.
The amount would be even higher for a new hire, because of the large increase in first year pay.
Truly sad if that all it takes to buy off thousands of F/O's.
Off course, that doesn't factor in the fact that not only would these pilots be buying their own $144/month raise with QWL givebacks, they'll likely give even more $$$ back through insurance increases and many others still more through equipment downgrades. Then it gets even sadder.
Oh well. You can lead a pilot to water...........
01-06-2015, 08:43 PM
#3
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Position: A320 F/O
Posts: 442
Originally Posted by eaglefly
So, using the example of a group II F/O and $59,214 thru 2020, taxed at 30% (probably a low estimate for Fed, State, FICA, Medi) that seems to come out to an extra $144/week.
Truly sad if that all it takes to buy off thousands of F/O's.
Off course, that doesn't factor in the fact that not only would these pilots be buying their own $144/month raise with QWL givebacks, they'll likely give even more $$$ back through insurance increases and many others still more through equipment downgrades. Then it gets even sadder.
Oh well. You can lead a pilot to water...........
Truly sad if that all it takes to buy off thousands of F/O's.
Off course, that doesn't factor in the fact that not only would these pilots be buying their own $144/month raise with QWL givebacks, they'll likely give even more $$$ back through insurance increases and many others still more through equipment downgrades. Then it gets even sadder.
Oh well. You can lead a pilot to water...........
I do agree that the increase over the MTA isn't really that big, it was a surprisingly low number on the FO side. We really need to get FO pay to 80-85% of CA wages.
If you average just the group II pay, and call it $95k more for both pilots, across the entire pilot group, we're looking at $1.4 bil improvement in wages over the MTA. It will be more than that, because we have Group III and IV A/C that pay substantially more.
01-07-2015, 04:02 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: fo
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by eaglefly
So, using the example of a group II F/O and $59,214 thru 2020, taxed at 30% (probably a low estimate for Fed, State, FICA, Medi) that seems to come out to an extra $144/week.
Truly sad if that all it takes to buy off thousands of F/O's.
Off course, that doesn't factor in the fact that not only would these pilots be buying their own $144/month raise with QWL givebacks, they'll likely give even more $$$ back through insurance increases and many others still more through equipment downgrades. Then it gets even sadder.
Oh well. You can lead a pilot to water...........
Truly sad if that all it takes to buy off thousands of F/O's.
Off course, that doesn't factor in the fact that not only would these pilots be buying their own $144/month raise with QWL givebacks, they'll likely give even more $$$ back through insurance increases and many others still more through equipment downgrades. Then it gets even sadder.
Oh well. You can lead a pilot to water...........
The raise in 2016 is 13% not 16%
Not sure how you come up with $144/ month raise.
Group ii for me after taxes 30% and current 401k election and Union dues puts a little over $700 a month over mta rates in 2016.
Group III for me with same deduction inputs for 2016 would pay me slightly over $1100 more per month over the mta rates for 2016.
Add all this compounded year over year on top of the 34k deficit we start with and it is significant and as stated above does not include the dc money.
Your rational that we should not want to make more money because of more taxes, dues and health care costs is fricken nuts.
You also keep bringing up the notion of downgrades and all this movement backwards yet we are retiring at least 40-50% of the airline over the same time period, I just don't see it.
Again lots of conjecture and speculation.
Maybe we should talk about the meteor that may hit planet earth 2017
Let's get real folks!
01-07-2015, 04:43 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
At LAA we have a lot of unproductive trips. MIA LIM is a 3 day trip that pays 11:00
Line construction used to be 23 ON and 8 days off.
Now in the last few months the Company agreed to only build lines with MAX 20 days ON, 10 days OFF.
Still that is alot of time away.
Sliceback wrote on our APA website that it is ONLY 88 lines total that are 3 day 11 hour trips.
Well, that would be 172 pilots affected don't forget FO lines.
There are also many many unproductive sequences that are 3 day LOW PAY!
To his credit it would be difficult to go thru every bid package and find the 10 hour 3 day trips. There are many! Not lines of them.
Also, LAA reserve doesn't get 30 off in base. So your 30 off can be in BUF,CLE or GRU or EZE (Out of country).
APA didn't even ask for 30 off in base.
To be fair, we LAA have had numerous improvements to reserve over the last 4 months!
We can now Opt out of flying into 1st days off of next reserve month. This is huge!
I'm NO vote unless they put Calender day in this "offer"
With Calender day I'm a possible YES.
Right now NO.
One of the threats is midnight sim's for landing currency. I'm a 777 FO I bounce between line holder and reserve. I go every 3-4 months for landing sim's for the last 3 years.
I don't care, I just don't see them forcing Check Airmen to do this. And if so, I don't care. And i'm a morning person! LOL
Now as a note, there is no van service between Midnight and 5am to/form hotels/airport, so they'd have to fix that and if it costs more than 1 widget the LAA will scrub the whole idea.
Line construction used to be 23 ON and 8 days off.
Now in the last few months the Company agreed to only build lines with MAX 20 days ON, 10 days OFF.
Still that is alot of time away.
Sliceback wrote on our APA website that it is ONLY 88 lines total that are 3 day 11 hour trips.
Well, that would be 172 pilots affected don't forget FO lines.
There are also many many unproductive sequences that are 3 day LOW PAY!
To his credit it would be difficult to go thru every bid package and find the 10 hour 3 day trips. There are many! Not lines of them.
Also, LAA reserve doesn't get 30 off in base. So your 30 off can be in BUF,CLE or GRU or EZE (Out of country).
APA didn't even ask for 30 off in base.
To be fair, we LAA have had numerous improvements to reserve over the last 4 months!
We can now Opt out of flying into 1st days off of next reserve month. This is huge!
I'm NO vote unless they put Calender day in this "offer"
With Calender day I'm a possible YES.
Right now NO.
One of the threats is midnight sim's for landing currency. I'm a 777 FO I bounce between line holder and reserve. I go every 3-4 months for landing sim's for the last 3 years.
I don't care, I just don't see them forcing Check Airmen to do this. And if so, I don't care. And i'm a morning person! LOL
Now as a note, there is no van service between Midnight and 5am to/form hotels/airport, so they'd have to fix that and if it costs more than 1 widget the LAA will scrub the whole idea.
01-07-2015, 05:13 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by Saabs
Let's not forget the group I difference. Things that make you hmmm....
Voting No
Voting No
And the proposal will result in fewer captain positions, fewer wide body positions, and more days at work on average.
NO.
01-07-2015, 05:18 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by 7576FO
At LAA we have a lot of unproductive trips. MIA LIM is a 3 day trip that pays 11:00
Line construction used to be 23 ON and 8 days off.
Now in the last few months the Company agreed to only build lines with MAX 20 days ON, 10 days OFF.
Still that is alot of time away.
Sliceback wrote on our APA website that it is ONLY 88 lines total that are 3 day 11 hour trips.
Well, that would be 172 pilots affected don't forget FO lines.
There are also many many unproductive sequences that are 3 day LOW PAY!
To his credit it would be difficult to go thru every bid package and find the 10 hour 3 day trips. There are many! Not lines of them.
Also, LAA reserve doesn't get 30 off in base. So your 30 off can be in BUF,CLE or GRU or EZE (Out of country).
APA didn't even ask for 30 off in base.
To be fair, we LAA have had numerous improvements to reserve over the last 4 months!
We can now Opt out of flying into 1st days off of next reserve month. This is huge!
I'm NO vote unless they put Calender day in this "offer"
With Calender day I'm a possible YES.
Right now NO.
One of the threats is midnight sim's for landing currency. I'm a 777 FO I bounce between line holder and reserve. I go every 3-4 months for landing sim's for the last 3 years.
I don't care, I just don't see them forcing Check Airmen to do this. And if so, I don't care. And i'm a morning person! LOL
Now as a note, there is no van service between Midnight and 5am to/form hotels/airport, so they'd have to fix that and if it costs more than 1 widget the LAA will scrub the whole idea.
Line construction used to be 23 ON and 8 days off.
Now in the last few months the Company agreed to only build lines with MAX 20 days ON, 10 days OFF.
Still that is alot of time away.
Sliceback wrote on our APA website that it is ONLY 88 lines total that are 3 day 11 hour trips.
Well, that would be 172 pilots affected don't forget FO lines.
There are also many many unproductive sequences that are 3 day LOW PAY!
To his credit it would be difficult to go thru every bid package and find the 10 hour 3 day trips. There are many! Not lines of them.
Also, LAA reserve doesn't get 30 off in base. So your 30 off can be in BUF,CLE or GRU or EZE (Out of country).
APA didn't even ask for 30 off in base.
To be fair, we LAA have had numerous improvements to reserve over the last 4 months!
We can now Opt out of flying into 1st days off of next reserve month. This is huge!
I'm NO vote unless they put Calender day in this "offer"
With Calender day I'm a possible YES.
Right now NO.
One of the threats is midnight sim's for landing currency. I'm a 777 FO I bounce between line holder and reserve. I go every 3-4 months for landing sim's for the last 3 years.
I don't care, I just don't see them forcing Check Airmen to do this. And if so, I don't care. And i'm a morning person! LOL
Now as a note, there is no van service between Midnight and 5am to/form hotels/airport, so they'd have to fix that and if it costs more than 1 widget the LAA will scrub the whole idea.
01-07-2015, 05:24 AM
#10
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by inline five
blah blah blah
I do agree that the increase over the MTA isn't really that big, it was a surprisingly low number on the FO side. We really need to get FO pay to 80-85% of CA wages.
If you average just the group II pay, and call it $95k more for both pilots, across the entire pilot group, we're looking at $1.4 bil improvement in wages over the MTA. It will be more than that, because we have Group III and IV A/C that pay substantially more.
I do agree that the increase over the MTA isn't really that big, it was a surprisingly low number on the FO side. We really need to get FO pay to 80-85% of CA wages.
If you average just the group II pay, and call it $95k more for both pilots, across the entire pilot group, we're looking at $1.4 bil improvement in wages over the MTA. It will be more than that, because we have Group III and IV A/C that pay substantially more.
Just a lot of rationalization.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
