APA Reps Speak Out About Company's JCBA Offer
01-08-2015, 01:04 PM
#101
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by inline five
I don't take benefits from AA. As I stated earlier we are on my wife's plan.
Who is their provider? I don't even know, I threw out the pamphlet they mailed before open enrollment.
But, reading thru the language, what the company would do is pick a plan out of the list that whomever their provider is offers and implement it. It would be one that is designed to meet the ACA tax cap but provides as near of coverage as can be had based on our former plan. Essentially, they want to keep their plans from being subjected to the 40% tax, that's all.
It doesn't mean they'll get rid of coverage and force us all into the open marketplace to purchase our own insurance. Although, if the marketplace expands like it's designed to do that may not be a bad idea in the coming years.
This all assumes the ACA will still be law come 2016...
Who is their provider? I don't even know, I threw out the pamphlet they mailed before open enrollment.
But, reading thru the language, what the company would do is pick a plan out of the list that whomever their provider is offers and implement it. It would be one that is designed to meet the ACA tax cap but provides as near of coverage as can be had based on our former plan. Essentially, they want to keep their plans from being subjected to the 40% tax, that's all.
It doesn't mean they'll get rid of coverage and force us all into the open marketplace to purchase our own insurance. Although, if the marketplace expands like it's designed to do that may not be a bad idea in the coming years.
This all assumes the ACA will still be law come 2016...
The point of the "new option" is simply ambiguous language for Parker to do whatever he wishes with our HC (not yours) and the worrisome language you mention provides the process to do that, even so far as unilaterally implementing it should the arbitrator punt that issue, which he almost certainly will. He's not going to specifically say, "health care will be terminated at point X".
No downside for you though and congrats.
01-08-2015, 01:07 PM
#102
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Position: A320 F/O
Posts: 442
Originally Posted by eaglefly
I can understand why you don't care about our HC. Many of the rest of us though who ARE subject to it do and obviously have more at stake.
The point of the "new option" is simply ambiguous language for Parker to do whatever he wishes with our HC (not yours) and the worrisome language you mention provides the process to do that, even so far as unilaterally implementing it should the arbitrator punt that issue, which he almost certainly will. He's not going to specifically say, "health care will be terminated at point X".
No downside for you though and congrats.
The point of the "new option" is simply ambiguous language for Parker to do whatever he wishes with our HC (not yours) and the worrisome language you mention provides the process to do that, even so far as unilaterally implementing it should the arbitrator punt that issue, which he almost certainly will. He's not going to specifically say, "health care will be terminated at point X".
No downside for you though and congrats.
However, your ideas of what will happen are fantasies. The language specifically states the new option will align as close to the option it replaced without going over the tax cap. It's pretty black and white. I'm not sure what you're reading because it's not the same thing I am.
01-08-2015, 01:09 PM
#103
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by inline five
My wife won't always work for her company. So I do care about it.
However, your ideas of what will happen are fantasies. The language specifically states the new option will align as close to the option it replaced without going over the tax cap. It's pretty black and white. I'm not sure what you're reading because it's not the same thing I am.
However, your ideas of what will happen are fantasies. The language specifically states the new option will align as close to the option it replaced without going over the tax cap. It's pretty black and white. I'm not sure what you're reading because it's not the same thing I am.
Please explain in specific detail the "new option" described so we can all understand it better.
01-08-2015, 01:22 PM
#104
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by nwa757
If you are so certain of this (it can't happen- the company cannot gut our contract in arbitration)....but let's just play this scenario:
If he thinks he can get those things in arbitration, or he thinks those things have little value, then WHY IS HE THROWING ALL THIS MONEY AT US?
I know why, because the concessions are worth something! We all know he isn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart, it's because HE WANTS SOMETHING. He has never given anything without a reason.
Our concessions are worth a lot and we have leverage. It just depends if you have the strength and brains to use it. There is a reason they are offering a 23% pay raise right now, it's because they need these 7 concessions to run the place efficiently and compete with Delta/United.
Oh, and the new vacancy rules have lots of value too. They are maxed out on sim time and it's only going to get worse with more retirements. New concessionary language allows them to hold you for up to 12 months after an award... awards which go from monthly down to quarterly.
If he thinks he can get those things in arbitration, or he thinks those things have little value, then WHY IS HE THROWING ALL THIS MONEY AT US?
I know why, because the concessions are worth something! We all know he isn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart, it's because HE WANTS SOMETHING. He has never given anything without a reason.
Our concessions are worth a lot and we have leverage. It just depends if you have the strength and brains to use it. There is a reason they are offering a 23% pay raise right now, it's because they need these 7 concessions to run the place efficiently and compete with Delta/United.
Oh, and the new vacancy rules have lots of value too. They are maxed out on sim time and it's only going to get worse with more retirements. New concessionary language allows them to hold you for up to 12 months after an award... awards which go from monthly down to quarterly.
So for me this vote will come down to the language of the contract offer. As far as the HBT and Dom/intl issue I have to figure that Parker is again 8 to 10 steps ahead of the pilot group on those issues like he has always been. What caused me to vote no on the MOU is the weak language. I think we will see the fruits of that weak language if we go to arbitration. I am pretty sure parker got the deal he needed 12 months ago, the rest is just window dressing to smooth things out a bit, but he does not need it to do what he wants.
01-08-2015, 01:28 PM
#105
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Sweatsock
I understand your view, and if I had only been here a few years like you I would tend to agree. However after watching Parker win over and over again against what appeared to be strong language and seeing us get the short end of the grievance/arbitration stick I can say one thing for certain. We do not have the leverage that we think we do. Parker wants something to be sure or he would not be tossing out the money. However the other thing I am sure of is that he has mapped out a no vote from us at least 10 steps ahead of anything the APA has thought of to date. In 10 years of being on the receiving end of his management, the pilot group east and west, ALPA and USAPA have always been several steps behind. Just like the APA was about 10 steps behind Parker in the MOU negotiations. APA did exactly what parker expected and wanted.
So for me this vote will come down to the language of the contract offer. As far as the HBT and Dom/intl issue I have to figure that Parker is again 8 to 10 steps ahead of the pilot group on those issues like he has always been. What caused me to vote no on the MOU is the weak language. I think we will see the fruits of that weak language if we go to arbitration. I am pretty sure parker got the deal he needed 12 months ago, the rest is just window dressing to smooth things out a bit, but he does not need it to do what he wants.
So for me this vote will come down to the language of the contract offer. As far as the HBT and Dom/intl issue I have to figure that Parker is again 8 to 10 steps ahead of the pilot group on those issues like he has always been. What caused me to vote no on the MOU is the weak language. I think we will see the fruits of that weak language if we go to arbitration. I am pretty sure parker got the deal he needed 12 months ago, the rest is just window dressing to smooth things out a bit, but he does not need it to do what he wants.
I know what my plan is, what's yours ?
01-08-2015, 02:00 PM
#106
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by eaglefly
My only question then is what's the plan for 2020, when we're even more bankrupt of desirable goodies, more fragmented and twice as weak and vulnerable ?
I know what my plan is, what's yours ?
I know what my plan is, what's yours ?
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
01-08-2015, 02:20 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: fo
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by Sweatsock
The most honest answer I can give you is this. Whatever you think the airline landscape will be, you are wrong.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
01-08-2015, 02:44 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: B737
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by Sweatsock
The most honest answer I can give you is this. Whatever you think the airline landscape will be, you are wrong.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
01-08-2015, 02:51 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: B737
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by fr8tmastr
Well thats kind of vague, I think Inline should be proud of the airline he flew for and tell us.
01-08-2015, 02:53 PM
#110
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Sweatsock
The most honest answer I can give you is this. Whatever you think the airline landscape will be, you are wrong.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
When I started my flying career Eastern was a fresh corpse, as well as Braniff, TWA was mortally wounded, Pan Am as well. Continental looked awful. Less than a decade before they were the powerhouse players in the business.
Had this discussion come up prior to 9/11 I would agree with you. Given world events and your stated hire date with AA you fall in the category of high risk for furlough. Not saying it to be mean just stating facts. Day one of new hire initial a wisened old instructor had all 50 of us new hires go to the back wall and read a letter he had posted. It was a furlough letter from years before. He simply said "right now you all should be captains in 5 years given current size and retirement schedule, but read the letter and plan ahead."
My point is, I cannot get completely wrapped up in 2020 what if's. Right now 2020 looks really nice given retirement schedules and everything else. but then again in the summer of 2001 with a new parity plus 1% contract in the books things looked pretty nice also.
The only advise I can give is 2020 will not be whatever you envision it to be today, so "plan ahead"
I would like to have min day, PS, intl/dom split etc. Do I think we will do better in arbitration? Honestly, no. Is anything in 2020 for sure? Given world events...No. Paris the other day is probably just the beginning of much more and no clue how something like that here would affect our little piece of the airline world.
Vote what you feel, but don't ever assume tomorrows airline landscape will be anywhere close to todays landscape.
If you question that, might I suggest you review the labor history here at AA ?
If you do that, I think you'll find a lot of consistency despite the ups and down of the industry or what affects it. If this passes, it simply continues the dysfunction and its predictable results. My point is it won't matter what the external landscape will look like just as it hasn't in the past. The only thing that will matter is what landscape we make of ourselves. Only considering what's in front of you now and disregarding the plan down the road (or in the air) is a poor way to secure your future or fly an airplane.
Good luck with your plan.
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