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Good perspective from former APA President

Old 01-24-2015, 09:44 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by eaglefly
Nonsense. He's "anti-union". I'm not per se. It's just if this passes there IS no union. I cannot support something that doesn't really exist or essentially so. The failure isn't the "union" per we, it's the pilots or at least the majority. On Feb. 1st, it will become very peaceful for me.
Oh, it's all about EF semantics. If you vote "no" there is no union. If you don't like the APA for the stupid stuff THEY do, you're "anti-union". So, if the majority don't like YOUR way, they are NOT part of "the union". You are simply a.....well, I don't think there's a name, really, for what YOU are. OH YES there is.....LIBERAL!!!
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Old 01-24-2015, 02:40 PM
  #52  
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If this contract passes it will put downward pressure on us at Delta.
For TWO contracts. The one this year, C2015, as well as our next one in 2019. Six years for a contract seems too long unless you (APA) are hitting it out of the ball park. I mean you guys are not fuel hedged like we are (costing us about $2B) and you're supposed to make $8B this year.

Sitting here detached it's obvious there is a rush job from your company on this. Once it's approved they have you locked down for six years while they achieve record profits. There are no renegotiations.

Good luck with your vote.
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Old 01-24-2015, 02:58 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Route66
Oh, it's all about EF semantics. If you vote "no" there is no union. If you don't like the APA for the stupid stuff THEY do, you're "anti-union". So, if the majority don't like YOUR way, they are NOT part of "the union". You are simply a.....well, I don't think there's a name, really, for what YOU are. OH YES there is.....LIBERAL!!!
Individualists chasing the money and begging to have more Kirby-lullabies softly sing them to sleep.. It ain't a union. Wilson letting Kirby sing lullabies to the membership, and kneecapping the BOD... It ain't a union. Clapping seals in the audience at crew news (or captain school)... It ain't a union.

LAX and ORD who intentionally thumbed their nose at the BOD decisions... and led the charge to encourage membership mutiny from any constitutional process... If we had men that would lead on principle, and educate about it, a majority of members would follow.

Nevermind. Capitulation and subversion is easier. It's a habit, and habits are hard to break.

I seriously see no reason whatsoever to pay dues or be a member of the individualist mob, except to avoid the label of "scab wannabe" and to have some rep if I ever bend a blade of grass.
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Old 01-24-2015, 03:42 PM
  #54  
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Those attending the Parker briefs are not smart enough to know they are being played. Remarkable the APA leadership has not addressed this as the union busting tactic that it is.
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Old 01-24-2015, 04:03 PM
  #55  
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ERflyer - could you detail the process you think will take place with a no vote?

What steps do think APA should take to slow down the 'rush' you see the from the company?
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Old 01-24-2015, 04:12 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
Individualists chasing the money and begging to have more Kirby-lullabies softly sing them to sleep.. It ain't a union. Wilson letting Kirby sing lullabies to the membership, and kneecapping the BOD... It ain't a union. Clapping seals in the audience at crew news (or captain school)... It ain't a union.

LAX and ORD who intentionally thumbed their nose at the BOD decisions... and led the charge to encourage membership mutiny from any constitutional process... If we had men that would lead on principle, and educate about it, a majority of members would follow.

Nevermind. Capitulation and subversion is easier. It's a habit, and habits are hard to break.

I seriously see no reason whatsoever to pay dues or be a member of the individualist mob, except to avoid the label of "scab wannabe" and to have some rep if I ever bend a blade of grass.
Being labeled a "scab" with this group is a badge of honor these days. It doesn't bother me, why should it for everyone else? The APA is the sower (or sewer) of disunity.
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:19 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
Individualists chasing the money and begging to have more Kirby-lullabies softly sing them to sleep.. It ain't a union. Wilson letting Kirby sing lullabies to the membership, and kneecapping the BOD... It ain't a union. Clapping seals in the audience at crew news (or captain school)... It ain't a union.

LAX and ORD who intentionally thumbed their nose at the BOD decisions... and led the charge to encourage membership mutiny from any constitutional process... If we had men that would lead on principle, and educate about it, a majority of members would follow.

Nevermind. Capitulation and subversion is easier. It's a habit, and habits are hard to break.

I seriously see no reason whatsoever to pay dues or be a member of the individualist mob, except to avoid the label of "scab wannabe" and to have some rep if I ever bend a blade of grass.
Many of them think next time will be different. They fail to accept that every time they screw themselves it IS "next time". Now some of them are throwing tantrums because I simply point out the obvious. STILL not a single one of them can come up with a viable plan for 2020 or explain what our leverage will be.

All they can do now is throw rocks.
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:21 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Sliceback
ERflyer - could you detail the process you think will take place with a no vote?

What steps do think APA should take to slow down the 'rush' you see the from the company?

Can you detail the process for me? I admittedly have a rudimentary understanding of your process but copied from this thread:

If you vote no on the agreement:

1. You get a minimum 14.3% pay raise in 2016 and there is a mechanism to increase rates further based on DAL and UAL pay rates. [In my opinion we - Delta - will receive a 25% minimum increase in the value of our contract over four years before the end of this year.]

2. No further pay increases in 2015. [We just received a 3% increase in pay Jan. 1 and lost 2% in profit sharing 2 years ago. Not much either for 2015.]

3. No work rules changes. Any changes will have to be negotiated with APA. [As Delta and ALPA continue to tweek our contract over the last three years we have come to agreements (Letters of Agreement) with Delta on scope with Virgin Atlantic, FAR 117, and increased our Average Daily Guarantee to 5:15 from a DPA of 4:30 to name a few.]

4. The contract is one year shorter than the Company proposal. [Shorter is much, much better.]

5. Contract negotiations begin in one year and eleven months.

The only way to "slow down" the deal is to vote no as the die is cast. It's up to the membership now but you're sort of backed into a corner. Nothing APA can do now.

I know ultimately this is none of my business. It's your contract and your deal. People often underplay the intelligence of pilots. You all are smart and if you all think it's a good deal you'll vote yes. If it's not you'll vote no and take a another crack at it.

I don't know what the airline industry will be like in 6 years.
I do know we're all printing money. 2015-DAL $6.5 Billion, AAL $8 Billion 2017 DAL $10 Billion, AAL $10 Billion. And our managements want to give us as little as possible.

Last edited by ERflyer; 01-24-2015 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:22 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by ERflyer
If this contract passes it will put downward pressure on us at Delta.
For TWO contracts. The one this year, C2015, as well as our next one in 2019. Six years for a contract seems too long unless you (APA) are hitting it out of the ball park. I mean you guys are not fuel hedged like we are (costing us about $2B) and you're supposed to make $8B this year.

Sitting here detached it's obvious there is a rush job from your company on this. Once it's approved they have you locked down for six years while they achieve record profits. There are no renegotiations.

Good luck with your vote.
It will likely be at least 10 years. Unless we trade scope, Parker has no incentive to give us raises in 2020 when we will be the Walmart gang with the union that couldn't shoot straight.
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:27 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by ERflyer
Can you detail the process for me? I admittedly have a rudimentary understanding of your process but copied from this thread:

If you vote no on the agreement:

1. You get a minimum 14.3% pay raise in 2016 and there is a mechanism to increase rates further based on DAL and UAL pay rates. [In my opinion we - Delta - will receive a 25% minimum increase in the value of our contract over four years before the end of this year.]

2. No further pay increases in 2015. [We just received a 3% increase in pay Jan. 1 and lost 2% in profit sharing 2 years ago. Not much either for 2015.]

3. No work rules changes. Any changes will have to be negotiated with APA. [As Delta and ALPA continue to tweek our contract over the last three years we have come to agreements (Letters of Agreement) with Delta on scope with Virgin Atlantic, FAR 117, and increased our Average Daily Guarantee to 5:15 from a DPA of 4:30 to name a few.]

4. The contract is one year shorter than the Company proposal. [Shorter is much, much better.]

5. Contract negotiations begin in one year and eleven months.

The only way to "slow down" the deal is to vote no as the die is cast. It's up to the membership now but you're sort of backed into a corner. Nothing APA can do now.

I know ultimately this is none of my business. It's your contract and your deal. People often underplay the intelligence of pilots. You all are smart and if you all think it's a good deal you'll vote yes. If it's not you'll vote no and take a another crack at it.

I don't know what the airline industry will be like in 6 years.
I do now we're all printing money. 2015-DAL $6.5 Billion, AAL $8 Billion 2017 DAL $10 Billion, AAL $10 Billion. And our managements want to give us as little as possible.
You have a good grasp. The APA BOD was too divided to do anything but punt to the pilots, so we either validate their weakness as reality or correct it. If we validate it, not only will we be empty-handed in 2020 to change it, Parker will see that we can be manipulated and controlled with ease.
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