Advice to American applicants...
10-13-2016, 07:18 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 398
Slice,
The days off tool is on AAPilots, AA Scheduling, one of the choices. Another choice explains the rules. As you well know, there are a bunch of them. Like most things, You can't do what you want but you can still use it to some advantage. Any set of days off can be golden and you don't habe to worry about the moveable days when bidding reserve, as you can move them.
Anyone else...
More or less ten of the last fifteen years on reserve. Some of them flying to max for years in a row and some hardly flying. I do not remember ever having a moveable day moved, or flying into my day off, except perhaps gettimg back late after midnight.
That's probanly just luck. Yes, there are contractual items that people who come from other airlines, even regionals, shake their heads in disbelief at. The LUS guys being the most recent group to join that club.
However, I have yet to hear anyone say they'd go back, or that the contract in whole was worse than wherever they came from. As one discovers the easter eggs, one realizes that the apparent needless complexiy has its benefits - for those that make the effort.
NTL, it is what it is. Make the best of it. If you get a better offer that fits better and especially that allows a career of mostly driving to work, then you are allowed to leave. They can not hold you prisoner.
The days off tool is on AAPilots, AA Scheduling, one of the choices. Another choice explains the rules. As you well know, there are a bunch of them. Like most things, You can't do what you want but you can still use it to some advantage. Any set of days off can be golden and you don't habe to worry about the moveable days when bidding reserve, as you can move them.
Anyone else...
More or less ten of the last fifteen years on reserve. Some of them flying to max for years in a row and some hardly flying. I do not remember ever having a moveable day moved, or flying into my day off, except perhaps gettimg back late after midnight.
That's probanly just luck. Yes, there are contractual items that people who come from other airlines, even regionals, shake their heads in disbelief at. The LUS guys being the most recent group to join that club.
However, I have yet to hear anyone say they'd go back, or that the contract in whole was worse than wherever they came from. As one discovers the easter eggs, one realizes that the apparent needless complexiy has its benefits - for those that make the effort.
NTL, it is what it is. Make the best of it. If you get a better offer that fits better and especially that allows a career of mostly driving to work, then you are allowed to leave. They can not hold you prisoner.
10-13-2016, 10:00 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,533
I'm not sure of the actual percentages, but I'd say a solid majority of the guys I know here HAVE worked at other airlines prior to coming here, or possibly while on furlough. As many here seem to do, I also bid Short Call Reserve rather than a Hard line because I realized Short Call Reserve gave me a lot more time at home for an easy 76 hours of pay. Factor in one, maybe two Premium trips, and all of a sudden I'm not only flying less and home more, but I'm bringing home more money too. A lot more. Win, win, and win! Granted, I've been based where I live for the past two out of three years, so I'm not commuting to Reserve.
As a hard line holder, at least on the Airbus, I've almost always had two and three day trips, which are so much easier on the psyche for me in terms of feeling like I'm gone for a long period of time when compared to a long four day trip (Four day trips were the norm at my former Regional). The problem I see, at least at my base, is so many of the trips are 11.5 hour trips that touch three Calendar days, so they're inefficient, and the resultant lines end up being low time with a lot of days away from home. In order to try to make a bit more money, I'd slip another trip or two in there, and next thing I knew, I had only ten days off for a measly 85 hours or so. This is where the minimum value of a day would make a huge difference, and I believe we'll get that at some point whwn the company needs something from us one of these days - just as Delta pilots got their minimum day as a result of the company needing something (as told to me by two Delta pilots in our two jumpseats from ATL to DFW some time back).
I and almost all of my friends here and at other Majors spent years at the Regional level, so we can say with some authority that Regional contracts, when taken as a whole, were not and are not superior in almost any way to our contract. Yes, there were and are certain cherry picked provisos that are certainly better, but taken as a whole, all of my friends and I agree that the contracts we worked under at the Regional level were significantly inferior to what we have here. The Regional contracts are full of caveats written in the company's favor - words and phrases like "may" and "at the company's discretion" come to mind. Those words are littered all over thin, the poorly written contracts at that level.
Yes, we certainly have a long way to go to improve our contract, when compared to our peers at the mainline level, but to say that our contract is inferior as a whole to any Regional airline's contract is a pretty big stretch.
As a hard line holder, at least on the Airbus, I've almost always had two and three day trips, which are so much easier on the psyche for me in terms of feeling like I'm gone for a long period of time when compared to a long four day trip (Four day trips were the norm at my former Regional). The problem I see, at least at my base, is so many of the trips are 11.5 hour trips that touch three Calendar days, so they're inefficient, and the resultant lines end up being low time with a lot of days away from home. In order to try to make a bit more money, I'd slip another trip or two in there, and next thing I knew, I had only ten days off for a measly 85 hours or so. This is where the minimum value of a day would make a huge difference, and I believe we'll get that at some point whwn the company needs something from us one of these days - just as Delta pilots got their minimum day as a result of the company needing something (as told to me by two Delta pilots in our two jumpseats from ATL to DFW some time back).
I and almost all of my friends here and at other Majors spent years at the Regional level, so we can say with some authority that Regional contracts, when taken as a whole, were not and are not superior in almost any way to our contract. Yes, there were and are certain cherry picked provisos that are certainly better, but taken as a whole, all of my friends and I agree that the contracts we worked under at the Regional level were significantly inferior to what we have here. The Regional contracts are full of caveats written in the company's favor - words and phrases like "may" and "at the company's discretion" come to mind. Those words are littered all over thin, the poorly written contracts at that level.
Yes, we certainly have a long way to go to improve our contract, when compared to our peers at the mainline level, but to say that our contract is inferior as a whole to any Regional airline's contract is a pretty big stretch.
10-13-2016, 11:36 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
Nothing against slice, cheddar or aa73. I think all of you have sent me pm's helping me or answering questions I have posted. The one commonality is that you have all been here for quite some time.
10-13-2016, 12:03 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 233
Something else to add. When I was making the transition from mil to the airlines no one I worked with directly worked at the airlines. I did a bit of research online and with friends from previous duty stations. Had I actually believed 10% of the crap online I wouldn't have made the transition. I realize there are ups and downs, goods and bads,; but often people have nothing good at all to say and it might scare folks off. I guess we are all big boys and girls and should be able to make our own decisions anyways. I did a bit of research, I'll be the first to tell you AA wasn't my first choice; and they weren't even the first to call (DAL was). After being at AA I let my app lapse at my first choice and wouldn't even consider them now. We all have our reasons, and honestly I'd say anyone who claims to have the next 20 years figured out is a bit naive. I think the best advice for any new hire is pick the airline that has a base you will live in at some point in your career, other than that it is a crap shoot right now. Also, do your research and realize as pilots we complain. I noticed the same trends in all the sub forums for the majors on here. Talk to people in 3d or at least on the phone. There will always be room for improvement, I am looking forward to the battle. At least here we have a choice and get to vote on it, in my previous profession you'd shut up and color or the other option was to make big rocks into smaller rocks
10-13-2016, 12:32 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
Originally Posted by andrewtac
Something else to add. When I was making the transition from mil to the airlines no one I worked with directly worked at the airlines. I did a bit of research online and with friends from previous duty stations. Had I actually believed 10% of the crap online I wouldn't have made the transition. I realize there are ups and downs, goods and bads,; but often people have nothing good at all to say and it might scare folks off. I guess we are all big boys and girls and should be able to make our own decisions anyways. I did a bit of research, I'll be the first to tell you AA wasn't my first choice; and they weren't even the first to call (DAL was). After being at AA I let my app lapse at my first choice and wouldn't even consider them now. We all have our reasons, and honestly I'd say anyone who claims to have the next 20 years figured out is a bit naive. I think the best advice for any new hire is pick the airline that has a base you will live in at some point in your career, other than that it is a crap shoot right now. Also, do your research and realize as pilots we complain. I noticed the same trends in all the sub forums for the majors on here. Talk to people in 3d or at least on the phone. There will always be room for improvement, I am looking forward to the battle. At least here we have a choice and get to vote on it, in my previous profession you'd shut up and color or the other option was to make big rocks into smaller rocks
Very good insights.
I know we all (myself included) tend to lose perspective. Things are better at some other airlines, but we are just looking at a small window here. Things sucked for years at other post-bankruptcy airlines for years also. (But I doubt any halfway sane person would ever stay at a regional vs. come to any legacy.)
The airline industry in this country is (and always was) an extreme roller coaster ride.
Things will hopefully get better. This contract will eventually get improved (hopefully,) and one day we may even have more employee-friendly management.
Things change. Every airline takes it's turn sucking hind tit. Right now is our turn.
(Let's not forget that ten or so years ago, management at another airline I can think of was sending out fliers telling their employees to not be shy about rooting through other folks' garbage.)
http://www.seattlepi.com/business/ar...ve-1212736.php
-At least we aren't being encouraged to go on a fun dumpster dive or two-in order to make up for pay cuts.
10-13-2016, 02:47 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: DFW A320 FO
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by Sliceback
^^^^^ bummer. That would have been a gold mine.
But you're talking about dropping an M into a block of duty free days. I'm talking about dropping an M in the middle of five days on call.
But you're talking about dropping an M into a block of duty free days. I'm talking about dropping an M in the middle of five days on call.
Look at AA Scheduling>Line Bidding then it's in the top left list of links.
10-13-2016, 04:17 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by 450knotOffice
In 3 full years here - all but 6 months on Reserve - I have NEVER had a Moveable day actually moved. Never. Yes, I've occasionally flown into a day off, but have always gotten it back, appended to the back end of the scheduled off days.
We have 13 days off on our Reserve lines in my base. Each Reserve line has 2 Moveable days off.
We have 13 days off on our Reserve lines in my base. Each Reserve line has 2 Moveable days off.
10-14-2016, 08:02 AM
#50
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by SilverandSore
I am not really a doom and gloom kind of guy, however, with the amount of hiring going on, I would put American a distant 5th on your list of major airlines you want to work for (the top 3 pax and Fedex/UPS). The QoL in this contract is laughable. US Airways (especially the West) language blows the doors off of this PoS that APA hoisted on 15,000 SoBs. I am not saying that as a disgruntled Airways guy trying to put a dig in at the American guys, just about every American pilot I've come in cantact with has been great, I'm saying that as a relatively junior guy that is now experiencing the full brunt of this contract we voted in. I've experienced the differences first hand, and say what you want about the sh!tty reputation that Airways had, it was, however, vastly superior compared to the American way of life, and that is embarrassing. I can't believe the 9000+ American guys put up with this crap. On long call reserve you will be utilized beyond what your schedule ever shows. Short call reserve? That's an in base deal, period. That can be decent, if sitting around a crash pad is what you consider decent. Long call reserve, something any new hire commuter dreams of, is worse than in-base short call. Your off days are not your off days, they are moved regularly and back to back trips are not uncommon. Long Call guys have their off days moved before short call guys are even called. AYFKM? Pack for 4 and gone for 6! Have a line and want to move a trip? Get used to Red/Redder, that's the mantra! Fly what you bid folks, and with PBS, unless you're in the top 30, expect the fun to continue!
The nickel and dime antics of Doug are well documented. Nearly every single regional airline has superior contract reserve language compared to what American has. Don't expect the union to share your pain, 'Don't worry son, you'll be senior one day' isn't really a joke here, it's SOP. Only the real joke is on the senior guys that actually think they're special. Sure, come here and get a seniority number but if Delta or United calls in the first year or two, pack your bags and hit the road!
I'm posting this not to get a load off my chest, I'm still thankful I have this job and I generally come to work and do my thing without making any waves, I'm posting this because you need to know what you're getting in to. Sure, Delta is on top, and that can all change, but that fact of the matter is we're on the bottom now and the leadership at APA isn't going to bat for the members and certainly not the contract, Doug is steamrolling them. The implementation of our contract only falls under the 'what saves the company money now' column. Our contract still has 3.5 years left and we've given up any bargaining power. The next contract will cost dearly to get some of the QoL issues back and that will still leave us a distant 5th! So ah, ok, good luck!
The nickel and dime antics of Doug are well documented. Nearly every single regional airline has superior contract reserve language compared to what American has. Don't expect the union to share your pain, 'Don't worry son, you'll be senior one day' isn't really a joke here, it's SOP. Only the real joke is on the senior guys that actually think they're special. Sure, come here and get a seniority number but if Delta or United calls in the first year or two, pack your bags and hit the road!
I'm posting this not to get a load off my chest, I'm still thankful I have this job and I generally come to work and do my thing without making any waves, I'm posting this because you need to know what you're getting in to. Sure, Delta is on top, and that can all change, but that fact of the matter is we're on the bottom now and the leadership at APA isn't going to bat for the members and certainly not the contract, Doug is steamrolling them. The implementation of our contract only falls under the 'what saves the company money now' column. Our contract still has 3.5 years left and we've given up any bargaining power. The next contract will cost dearly to get some of the QoL issues back and that will still leave us a distant 5th! So ah, ok, good luck!
The drawback to negotiating the contract prior to SLI is that APA imploded QOL to try to influence the perception that East/West pilots benefitted disproportionately. Well, APA failed and ended up getting a fair outcome and in the end lowered the potential quality of the JCBA substantially.
Going forward APA has no incentive to be self-destructive. Be the change you want to see in the world my friend. New hires, take the first legacy airline job you can get.
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