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-   -   Time from New Hire to the Wide-body's (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/99772-time-new-hire-wide-bodys.html)

lear4085 02-01-2017 08:42 PM

Time from New Hire to the Wide-body's
 
How long would it take at AA approximately to go from new hire to flying the 767, 777 or 787? What is the quickest way to get there or what do experienced airline captains recommend to do?

C130driver 02-01-2017 10:18 PM

Volunteer to plan the Christmas party, be the exec, fly as little as possible, volunteer for a 365, be the POC for woman's history month..

Oh wait that's the Air Force, disregard!

A buddy of mine could bid 76s in MIA 7 months after INDOC FWIW

aa73 02-02-2017 03:11 AM

They were hiring right into MIA 75/76 for a while a couple years ago. It goes in cycles. But I'd say you can hold MIA 75/76 within 6 months to 1 year from new hire. LGA 75/76 goes a little more senior but still within a couple years. DFW, ORD, LAX are all a lot more senior and it would take a few years. But keep in mind, with the 75/76 draw down this is all subject to change.

This is just for 75/76 (group 3.) 777/787 (group 4 flying) is a whole different animal and takes much longer, several years.

LuckyNow 02-02-2017 05:16 AM

The 777/787 are a pretty long wait right now, in fact, most (not all) of the junior FOs on those fleets could hold narrow body CA in one place or another, and some of the senior FOs on widebody fleets could also hold CA on those same fleets . The most junior 777 FO that I'm seeing is just below 11,000 in the company, so 4000ish numbers from the bottom. That will obviously start to trend down as retirements start to increase. The 787 is more senior than the 777.

The 767 is much more junior, in MIA we sent new hires into it for a good chunk of 2014. It's still fairly junior, but not new hire junior these days, some mid-2015 hires are on it in MIA and some mid-late 2014 hires in PHL.

LuckyNow 02-02-2017 05:28 AM

The 330 in CLT seems to be every bit as senior as the 777 with the junior man pushing 11,000, and in PHL it's just below 12,000.

The upside of the long haul widebody fleets being pretty senior is that it pushes group 2 CA slots more junior.

billyho 02-02-2017 06:49 AM

Makes you wonder if American Paid on Years of Service like Lufthansa and a few others. Would senior guys would job off of them? Time Zones changes kick my butt. You folks have at it.

viper548 02-02-2017 07:04 AM

We park 9 767s and 17 757s this year. It might take a while to get on the 767. 777 goes to about 10,600. Based off of projected retirements a new hire would get there in a little over 6 years. We have more 787s coming and the A350 as well. We have 112 group 4 planes right now and that goes up to 125 this year, 126 in 2018, 131 in 2019, 136 in 2020, 141 in 2021, 146 in 2022. I think it's overly optimistic to assume they will all come as scheduled. They've already deferred deliveries because they aren't ready for more large airplanes right now.
PBS is coming to the bigger bases and as people realize how bad it is for those on the bottom and how good it is for those on top, I think more people will choose to stay senior on smaller planes, making those junior group 4 FO spots go more junior.

All things considered, I'd guess someone hired now could get group 4 in 5-6 years.

EMBFlyer 02-02-2017 07:11 AM


Originally Posted by LuckyNow (Post 2293114)
The 330 in CLT seems to be every bit as senior as the 777 with the junior man pushing 11,000, and in PHL it's just below 12,000.

The upside of the long haul widebody fleets being pretty senior is that it pushes group 2 CA slots more junior.

The 330 numbers are slightly skewed. Prior to the merger, we had fairly new guys able to bid onto the 330 (I'm a Jan 2013 hire and would have been 4 from the bottom on it). They got bumped off a couple of bid cycles later. They now have reinstatement rights to it.

aa73 02-02-2017 07:56 AM

If we had LOS for pay, I think those WB jobs would go very junior. Why would anyone beat the crap out of their body for the same pay as just flying easy domestic NB stuff?

Sure it's 9 on/21 off but ya gotta remember, the first couple of days off are spent just recuperating and getting back on your time zone sleep schedule.

I'm with ya, I tried intl for 4 years and it absolutely trashed me. Once I switched back to NB domestic I was never even remotely as tired as I was doing the Europe/SA stuff.

Intl should really should be done at a younger age. Once you hit your 40s you should ideally start ratcheting down the long haul flying to where you're only flying easy domestic turns your last few years prior to retirement.

mainlineAF 02-02-2017 07:59 AM


Originally Posted by EMBFlyer (Post 2293181)
The 330 numbers are slightly skewed. Prior to the merger, we had fairly new guys able to bid onto the 330 (I'm a Jan 2013 hire and would have been 4 from the bottom on it). They got bumped off a couple of bid cycles later. They now have reinstatement rights to it.



Yep and the guys who got bumped to 190 captain have been getting group 4 fo pay for over 2 years now.

I'm still kicking myself for not bidding it back then. Best deal out. And those guys won't be able to hold G4 fo again for a while so they will be keeping the pay until they can.

UpChuckYeager 02-02-2017 09:13 AM

Get comfortable and wait a year.

QuagmireGiggity 02-02-2017 04:03 PM

Some of these things are nearly impossible to predict.
Most junior guy on 767 MIA is 14049. Probably one that got it as a new hire a couple years ago. Many of those people bid off of it to narrowbody for a slightly better life or no commute ect. Like said above it's shrinking so probably won't see any openings for a while.

TheRaven 02-02-2017 05:19 PM

I held the 75/76 as a New Hire in MIA, but got displaced to JFK.....they go from threatening displacements to posting vacancies....and anything that's correct now won't be in 6 months....luck of the draw really.

mainlineAF 02-02-2017 05:23 PM

Yea 76 is hard to predict. First they're parking a bunch, then they aren't, then they are. Prob only a good deal if you're local bc you will be perma-junior.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BOGSAT 02-03-2017 09:01 AM

The A350 sim is up and running correct? I mean sitting idle. Are we getting another?

BOGSAT 02-03-2017 09:05 AM

Per DFW crew news a few weeks ago:

JFK/PHL/MIA will be the only 75/76 bases in the future.

LuckyNow 02-03-2017 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by BOGSAT (Post 2294078)
The A350 sim is up and running correct? I mean sitting idle. Are we getting another?

I saw guys in it last week.

Name User 02-03-2017 10:21 AM

I thought we were selling our A350's to Delta.

I like the Airbus product. I would've really liked to see a consistent fleet. A319/20/21 and A330/A350. Instead we have all the expense of this hodgepodge of a fleet, pretty ridiculous.

mainlineAF 02-03-2017 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by Name User (Post 2294125)
I thought we were selling our A350's to Delta.

I like the Airbus product. I would've really liked to see a consistent fleet. A319/20/21 and A330/A350. Instead we have all the expense of this hodgepodge of a fleet, pretty ridiculous.



Works for delta. Too bad we don't have their management.

LuckyNow 02-03-2017 12:50 PM


Originally Posted by mainlineAF (Post 2294150)
Works for delta. Too bad we don't have their management.

Too bad we don't have their number of group 3 aircraft (while still having our group 4 numbers).

Vma214 02-03-2017 01:05 PM


Originally Posted by aa73 (Post 2293213)
If we had LOS for pay, I think those WB jobs would go very junior. Why would anyone beat the crap out of their body for the same pay as just flying easy domestic NB stuff?

Sure it's 9 on/21 off but ya gotta remember, the first couple of days off are spent just recuperating and getting back on your time zone sleep schedule.

I'm with ya, I tried intl for 4 years and it absolutely trashed me. Once I switched back to NB domestic I was never even remotely as tired as I was doing the Europe/SA stuff.

Intl should really should be done at a younger age. Once you hit your 40s you should ideally start ratcheting down the long haul flying to where you're only flying easy domestic turns your last few years prior to retirement.

I am just the opposite. Been flying mostly across the pond for the last 5 years. Did a couple 3 day Caribbean trips in December. I was absolutely exhausted flying 2 and 3 legs a day, most of it in and out of MIA. YOU CAN HAVE IT! I'll take 5 and 6 time zone 1 leg days, with a 2 hour snooze, any day.

flysooner9 02-03-2017 03:11 PM

what the average days off a month for international wide body line holders?

mainlineAF 02-03-2017 05:33 PM


Originally Posted by flysooner9 (Post 2294323)
what the average days off a month for international wide body line holders?



Well the Asia stuff pays enough to where some guys can do 3 3 days a month I think. Here's a screenshot of some of the originating pairings for DFW 787 FO in February.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...58ac80cb3d.jpg

So it really depends if you're doing Asia, Europe or SA. Also depends what base you're flying out of. For ex PHL 330 intl doesn't have nearly the high time trips.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d6ca6303ad.jpg

When PBS comes to all the bases it will mix things up as well.

QuagmireGiggity 02-03-2017 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by Vma214 (Post 2294252)
I am just the opposite. Been flying mostly across the pond for the last 5 years. Did a couple 3 day Caribbean trips in December. I was absolutely exhausted flying 2 and 3 legs a day, most of it in and out of MIA. YOU CAN HAVE IT! I'll take 5 and 6 time zone 1 leg days, with a 2 hour snooze, any day.

Furthermore there are so many Red eyes in MIA and LAX might as well do long hauls. I've never been so tired and/or called in fatigue so much in my life. MIA 737.

Gilligan13 02-05-2017 12:03 PM

Do they have 7-10 day trips?

mainlineAF 02-05-2017 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by Gilligan13 (Post 2295479)
Do they have 7-10 day trips?



No. Not that I know of. Maybe some 5 or 6 day trips.

C130driver 02-05-2017 12:26 PM

Is most WB international flying just out and backs? Any round robin/hub-and-spoke type of long trips?

mainlineAF 02-05-2017 01:56 PM


Originally Posted by C130driver (Post 2295497)
Is most WB international flying just out and backs? Any round robin/hub-and-spoke type of long trips?



Yea mostly out and back.

Only multi leg stuff is ORD-LHR-RDU-LHR-ORD and maybe a few other like it.

LuckyNow 02-05-2017 06:37 PM

The fact that wide-bodies is apostrophed in this title really bugs me, and I went to a state university.

Through these doors walk the world's most grammatically correct pilots.

Okay, fine, maybe I had a few drinks during the super bowl.

Al Czervik 02-05-2017 06:44 PM


Originally Posted by LuckyNow (Post 2295673)
The fact that wide-bodies is apostrophed in this title really bugs me, and I went to a state university.

Through these doors walk the world's most grammatically correct pilots.

Okay, fine, maybe I had a few drinks during the super bowl.

Your a looser. ;)

LIOG41 02-05-2017 08:50 PM

Things will be moving fast here soon. I predict Group 4 anywhere will be down to 12,000 by the fall. Lots of movement finally at AA.

H8Flying1 02-06-2017 05:37 AM


Originally Posted by LIOG41 (Post 2295737)
Things will be moving fast here soon. I predict Group 4 anywhere will be down to 12,000 by the fall. Lots of movement finally at AA.

Eh. Not for everybody. I haven't budged from Nov-April in CLT (LUS A/B Capt) as LAA/LAW pile in on top of me either thru bidding vacancies or base exchange. I expect my stagnation to continue for quite a while:(.

H8

WhenPigsFLy 02-06-2017 06:38 AM

I predict that a recession and NAI will dampen this. We have not had a decade in aviation since dereg that have not put us back a few years. I hope not, but history has a way of repeating itself.

Arado 234 02-06-2017 04:28 PM

I hate to bring up an old topic, but can someone please repost the combined retirement numbers please?

PRS Guitars 02-06-2017 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by Arado 234 (Post 2296243)
I hate to bring up an old topic, but can someone please repost the combined retirement numbers please?


Personal - Projected Future Retirements - Next 20 Years
Projected Retirements for 2017 - 2037
(Projections based on active pilots turning 65 in the given year.)
Roster Data Updated on: 2/5/2017
Year Total
2/6/2017 - 12/31/2017 409
01/01/2018 - 12/31/2018 545
01/01/2019 - 12/31/2019 656
01/01/2020 - 12/31/2020 782
01/01/2021 - 12/31/2021 853
01/01/2022 - 12/31/2022 874
01/01/2023 - 12/31/2023 960
01/01/2024 - 12/31/2024 932
01/01/2025 - 12/31/2025 956
01/01/2026 - 12/31/2026 903
01/01/2027 - 12/31/2027 771
01/01/2028 - 12/31/2028 668
01/01/2029 - 12/31/2029 634
01/01/2030 - 12/31/2030 549
01/01/2031 - 12/31/2031 568
01/01/2032 - 12/31/2032 493
01/01/2033 - 12/31/2033 465
01/01/2034 - 12/31/2034 390
01/01/2035 - 12/31/2035 324
01/01/2036 - 12/31/2036 248
01/01/2037 - 12/31/2037 195

This chart lives at Aapilots, click on "profile" in the upper right hand

Under helpful links click on "projected future retirements"


For your personal seniority number as of Dec 31st every year until retirement click on "seniority calculator" under helpful links.

Cookie Puss 02-06-2017 06:37 PM


Originally Posted by aa73 (Post 2293213)
If we had LOS for pay, I think those WB jobs would go very junior. Why would anyone beat the crap out of their body for the same pay as just flying easy domestic NB stuff?

Sure it's 9 on/21 off but ya gotta remember, the first couple of days off are spent just recuperating and getting back on your time zone sleep schedule.

I'm with ya, I tried intl for 4 years and it absolutely trashed me. Once I switched back to NB domestic I was never even remotely as tired as I was doing the Europe/SA stuff.

Intl should really should be done at a younger age. Once you hit your 40s you should ideally start ratcheting down the long haul flying to where you're only flying easy domestic turns your last few years prior to retirement.

Ideal Int'l/widebody flying is with an augmented crew of 4 based on my experience. Now if an airline could make up a crew compliment of 2 American based and 2 Asian based pilots, that would create the optimum rest to all.

teddyballgame 02-07-2017 04:53 AM


Originally Posted by aa73 (Post 2293213)
If we had LOS for pay, I think those WB jobs would go very junior. Why would anyone beat the crap out of their body for the same pay as just flying easy domestic NB stuff?

Sure it's 9 on/21 off but ya gotta remember, the first couple of days off are spent just recuperating and getting back on your time zone sleep schedule.

I'm with ya, I tried intl for 4 years and it absolutely trashed me. Once I switched back to NB domestic I was never even remotely as tired as I was doing the Europe/SA stuff.

Intl should really should be done at a younger age. Once you hit your 40s you should ideally start ratcheting down the long haul flying to where you're only flying easy domestic turns your last few years prior to retirement.


I believe BA has LOS pay.

That is why you see so many young captains on the 777's that come to the US.

The senior pilots are flying daytime turns out of LHR on the 320, and are home every night.

Laker24 02-07-2017 05:56 AM


Originally Posted by teddyballgame (Post 2296516)
I believe BA has LOS pay.

That is why you see so many young captains on the 777's that come to the US.

The senior pilots are flying daytime turns out of LHR on the 320, and are home every night.

Actually the 320 at BA is very junior. About 1 year to hold LGW 320 CA. The reason you see young 777 CAs at BA is because half the fleet is widebody aircraft and most pilots are hired in their early 20's. So that 45 year old 777 CA probably has over 20 years of service.

TOGAANG 02-07-2017 06:40 AM

Dumb question. What is LOS flying?

full of luv 02-07-2017 06:57 AM


Originally Posted by TOGAANG (Post 2296584)
Dumb question. What is LOS flying?

Like UPS (well UPS does do Capt/FO rates), you get paid purely based on your Length of Service (LOS), not what or where you fly.

Sort of like the way the military does it.

Consequently, pilots bid the type of flying / schedule they most enjoy without worry of leaving pay behind due to the size of their aircraft.


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