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View Full Version : NAI and outcomes


jstanotherpilot
02-16-2017, 01:05 PM
Hello everybody,

I recently read through a lot of the posts on NAI and I wanted to start a different discussion on the subject. I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.

Now before ya'll start blowing steam I'd like to say I'm not directly taking a stance on being opposed or in favor of all that's going on. I just want to get a better understanding of certain topics and discuss it all without insulting each other.

I think this whole NAI thing is going to happen whether we like it or not, and instead of all of us just arguing and complaining about it on the internet we should look into finding ways for NAI or for our industry, if it opposes completely every pilot's vision on respectful airmen work, to change for a positive outcome rather than boycotting and blacklisting people who choose to work there.

In the end, I believe we're all in the same game and going against a group of pilots operating here, in our territory, just because we dislike their parent companies, is just unprofessional.

So, most of what I read has to do with everyone feeling NAI pilot's would be undercutting/throwing others under the bus here in the U.S. Why is that exactly?

Is it because NAI pilots would be working at an airline that pays them less compared to wages at UAL/AA/Delta for the same type of aircrafts being flown?

Is it because NAI isn't going to have union representation?

What says or determines that NAI won't ever have worker's representation here in the U.S. or that their salaries won't ever be comparable to those at mainline?

If NAI's rates for international or domestic flights competes and raises eyebrows with U.S. carriers, why is that so bad? why wouldn't U.S. carriers be able to compete and offer or make competitive decisions to uphold the changes in the industry?

This question, specifically taken from the thread about blacklisting NAI's future pilot's, why does everyone think it would be a good decision to blacklist an entire pilot's group? Is this really what we've become? Just because we don't agree with something or someone we blacklist them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume NAI's U.S. based pilot's would be governed by all FAA regulations as well as DOT standards. Right? Wouldn't they have the same 117 rules applied to them? and wouldn't they also become CASS participants in the U.S.?

How is NAI "killing american jobs" if they're hiring U.S. citizens for U.S. based jobs?

Again, I'm just trying to take things from a neutral side. This NAI thing is gonna happen and they're going to have pilots working for them. I only see it as detrimental for aviation as a whole if pilot's are actively trying to shut down other pilots.


WHACKMASTER
02-16-2017, 01:09 PM
Your post reeks of seeking affirmation to apply there. I see right through you.

Half wing
02-16-2017, 01:28 PM
You will have higher pay and better QOL at your regional than NAI. NAI is putting downward pressure on all pilot pay everywhere. People going to NAI are essentially taking money away from your future self at a major. In my eyes their is no justification for anyone who chooses to go there. Just another pilot, please review the flag of convenience scheme again.


Qotsaautopilot
02-16-2017, 01:38 PM
FLAG OF CONVENIENCE!!!! Google it!

Also it's not necessarily US citizens, it's US based crews.

No CASS and no 117. You would work for an EU airline that doesn't even visit its flag country.

It's not about NAI it's about what NAI represents. It could be the beginning of a massive techtonic shift in how airlines are run. It's purely a way to escape taxes, skirt regulatory oversight, and do whatever you want to labor. Why do you think everyone on a cruise ship works 16hrs s day 7 days a week? For them it comes out to about $1.50/hr and their happy to do it because in the third world they wouldn't have a job at all. Most of those cruise companies are American companies yet they flag their ships in the Bahamas or Panama or Malta. Ever wonder why they do that? And they laugh all the way to the bank.

Just wait until China's training pipeline gets sorted out and the worlds flag of convenience carriers start recruiting from there instead of here or Europe. This career will turn into being a subway operator and it will be because guys like you didn't get it!

mainlineAF
02-16-2017, 03:21 PM
He's obviously already applied.

And if you've done so much research and don't realize the issue is Flag of Convenience then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not that they have low pay. Even though that sucks it's not the issue.

kevbo
02-16-2017, 03:31 PM
They have already "globalized" aircraft manufacturing and maintenance with complete success. I don't know how the operation side will escape a similar fate. It looks like flying will homogenize into an average middle class job. By that time the US, EU, and third world will reach parity. People will do it for love rather than money. All the frat boys will have to chase status somewhere else.

GogglesPisano
02-16-2017, 03:40 PM
They have already "globalized" aircraft manufacturing and maintenance with complete success. I don't know how the operation side will escape a similar fate. It looks like flying will homogenize into an average middle class job. People will do it for love rather than money. All the frat boys will have to chase status somewhere else.

Yep. The model used by the rest of the world (except the European/Pacific Rim legacies) will be allowed to wreak havoc here.

Short-term contracts with temp agencies. No unionization. DEC's. Training bonds (indentured servitude.) No loyalty in either direction (aka ME3.) No career positions.

And guys will justify it because a legacy hasn't called them yet.

TSioux55
02-16-2017, 04:47 PM
Hello everybody,

I recently read through a lot of the posts on NAI and I wanted to start a different discussion on the subject. I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.

Now before ya'll start blowing steam I'd like to say I'm not directly taking a stance on being opposed or in favor of all that's going on. I just want to get a better understanding of certain topics and discuss it all without insulting each other.

I think this whole NAI thing is going to happen whether we like it or not, and instead of all of us just arguing and complaining about it on the internet we should look into finding ways for NAI or for our industry, if it opposes completely every pilot's vision on respectful airmen work, to change for a positive outcome rather than boycotting and blacklisting people who choose to work there.

In the end, I believe we're all in the same game and going against a group of pilots operating here, in our territory, just because we dislike their parent companies, is just unprofessional.

So, most of what I read has to do with everyone feeling NAI pilot's would be undercutting/throwing others under the bus here in the U.S. Why is that exactly?

Is it because NAI pilots would be working at an airline that pays them less compared to wages at UAL/AA/Delta for the same type of aircrafts being flown?

Is it because NAI isn't going to have union representation?

What says or determines that NAI won't ever have worker's representation here in the U.S. or that their salaries won't ever be comparable to those at mainline?

If NAI's rates for international or domestic flights competes and raises eyebrows with U.S. carriers, why is that so bad? why wouldn't U.S. carriers be able to compete and offer or make competitive decisions to uphold the changes in the industry?

This question, specifically taken from the thread about blacklisting NAI's future pilot's, why does everyone think it would be a good decision to blacklist an entire pilot's group? Is this really what we've become? Just because we don't agree with something or someone we blacklist them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume NAI's U.S. based pilot's would be governed by all FAA regulations as well as DOT standards. Right? Wouldn't they have the same 117 rules applied to them? and wouldn't they also become CASS participants in the U.S.?

How is NAI "killing american jobs" if they're hiring U.S. citizens for U.S. based jobs?

Again, I'm just trying to take things from a neutral side. This NAI thing is gonna happen and they're going to have pilots working for them. I only see it as detrimental for aviation as a whole if pilot's are actively trying to shut down other pilots.



By severely undercutting the Legacy carriers!!! Yeah so they hire American citizens...big whoop. They are gonna be paid garbage wages to fly across the Atlantic. Probably all of their employees are going to be paid horrible wages, hence why they can charge fares that will be compareable to Greyhound or Amtrak, or less.

Most of the flying public looks for the cheapest fare. So they'll fly on NAI if they can. Don't you see how that will be tough for the American carriers to compete against??

awax
02-16-2017, 05:00 PM
I myself have been at a regional for a while and at first I saw NAI as an opportunity here in the U.S.; so have many other pilot's I've talked to and discussed about as well.


Question for you, how can you be at a regional airline "for a while" and be so completely clueless about NAI and similar FOC schemes? There's NO shortage of education out there.

mainlineAF
02-16-2017, 05:35 PM
Yep. The model used by the rest of the world (except the European/Pacific Rim legacies) will be allowed to wreak havoc here.



Short-term contracts with temp agencies. No unionization. DEC's. Training bonds (indentured servitude.) No loyalty in either direction (aka ME3.) No career positions.



And guys will justify it because a legacy hasn't called them yet.



Agreed. Once cabotage goes away and there's universal open skies I expect the US airlines, or whatever airlines dominate the US, to operate like the majority of European airlines. Short term contracts. 120k narrow body captains, maybe 150k for widebodies.

Hopefully some higher paying US jobs stay around like the European and Japanese legacies you mentioned.

Beretta01
02-16-2017, 06:11 PM
You little weasel, you must have the foresight of a potato to want to go work at NAI.

You were one of those Gulfstream Int'l pay2play guys too, weren't ya!?

CousinEddie
02-16-2017, 06:13 PM
The original poster asked about CASS. One way or another, commuting by air will not be an option to an NAI gig. So as you fill out that Out Source Me application, start researching where to move that is very close to whatever base you end up at. I'm sure NAI would want you very near the airport at all times for immediate availability on short notice, as this will best fit their business model. With such limited days off and shuffling of the deck to suit their needs, commuting would be problematic anyway. Good luck.

crflyer
02-16-2017, 10:11 PM
Question for you, how can you be at a regional airline "for a while" and be so completely clueless about NAI and similar FOC schemes? There's NO shortage of education out there.

Maybe the same reason he thinks "pilots" has an apostrophe.

shreddykreuger
02-16-2017, 11:13 PM
How would you feel if a foreign based regional airline used sketchy tax exemption methods to gain an unfair advantage and undercut your current regional? They get all of the feed and now your company is putting pressure on you to take pay cuts/caps/lose vacation etc because they're shrinking and need to cut costs. What if someone junior to you left your regional and went to work at this new regional?

NEDude
02-16-2017, 11:26 PM
FLAG OF CONVENIENCE!!!! Google it!

Also it's not necessarily US citizens, it's US based crews.

No CASS and no 117. You would work for an EU airline that doesn't even visit its flag country.

It's not about NAI it's about what NAI represents. It could be the beginning of a massive techtonic shift in how airlines are run. It's purely a way to escape taxes, skirt regulatory oversight, and do whatever you want to labor. Why do you think everyone on a cruise ship works 16hrs s day 7 days a week? For them it comes out to about $1.50/hr and their happy to do it because in the third world they wouldn't have a job at all. Most of those cruise companies are American companies yet they flag their ships in the Bahamas or Panama or Malta. Ever wonder why they do that? And they laugh all the way to the bank.

Just wait until China's training pipeline gets sorted out and the worlds flag of convenience carriers start recruiting from there instead of here or Europe. This career will turn into being a subway operator and it will be because guys like you didn't get it!

The European Union and European Economic Area is considered a single market for businesses. Therefore it is a bit hard to argue that NAI is a true "flag of convenience" in the historical sense of the phrase. The model began in the shipping industry by flagging vessels in nations outside of the regulatory control of their home nations. A Norwegian airline starting a subsidiary in another nation within the EU or EEA does not allow Norwegian to escape EU/EEA rules and regulations. Had Norwegian set up a subsidiary in a place like Liberia you would have an argument, but Ireland is a full EU member and complies with all applicable EU labour laws. On top of that both Norway and Ireland are EASA members, so there is no escaping EASA regulations in the way they could if they had a true "flag of convenience" model in place.

U.S. based crews must either be U.S. citizens or otherwise have the legal right to live and work in the U.S. No different than any other U.S. airline.

Obviously NAI crews will be governed by EASA regulations, not FAA regulations. And obviously this means no CASS as well. NAI, which is flagged in Ireland, most definitely visits its home country, with flights from Dublin to London, Copenhagen, Helsinki and Oslo (yes - Oslo, NORWAY).

Regarding regulatory oversight - EASA members have the full ability to conduct inspections and issue violations/citations/etc to any EASA airline. NAI would be unable to escape regulatory oversight for numerous reasons: A Spanish, French, or Swedish EASA inspector can conduct a full inspection on an NAI aircraft. NAI headquarters being in Dublin, in under the full authority of the IAA and the IAA can conduct full audits of their operations and paperwork. An IAA inspector can go out anywhere in the system and conduct full inspections. The idea that NAI can escape any regulatory oversight is just downright silly, especially given that it is operating under the bureaucratic mess that is EASA.

If you are going to dislike NAI, do so for legitimate reasons.

That being said, if you wanted to spend the rest of my life and career in the States, I would recommend steering away from Norwegian. Clearly there is enough bad blood that it may very well hurt your future career if NAI is not a long term option. However if you looking to find a way into Europe, and have a way to get an EU/EEA passport or the right to live and work in Europe, NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies.

The Dominican
02-17-2017, 01:57 AM
How would you feel if a foreign based mainlineairline used sketchy tax exemption methods to gain an unfair advantage and undercut your current mainlineairline carrier? They get all of the feed and now your company is putting pressure on you to take pay cuts/caps/lose vacation etc because they're shrinking and need to cut costs. What if someone junior to you left your regional and went to work at this new regional?

I give you COPA, Aeromexico, GOL and all other carriers growing with mainline carriers investments taking advantage of all of those points you mentioned with salary rates that make NAI look like a great deal:rolleyes:

Follow the laser pointer and keep patching the inflatable rat boyz and gals:D

Qotsaautopilot
02-17-2017, 07:45 AM
The European Union and European Economic Area is considered a single market for businesses. Therefore it is a bit hard to argue that NAI is a true "flag of convenience" in the historical sense of the phrase. The model began in the shipping industry by flagging vessels in nations outside of the regulatory control of their home nations. A Norwegian airline starting a subsidiary in another nation within the EU or EEA does not allow Norwegian to escape EU/EEA rules and regulations. Had Norwegian set up a subsidiary in a place like Liberia you would have an argument, but Ireland is a full EU member and complies with all applicable EU labour laws. On top of that both Norway and Ireland are EASA members, so there is no escaping EASA regulations in the way they could if they had a true "flag of convenience" model in place.

U.S. based crews must either be U.S. citizens or otherwise have the legal right to live and work in the U.S. No different than any other U.S. airline.

Obviously NAI crews will be governed by EASA regulations, not FAA regulations. And obviously this means no CASS as well. NAI, which is flagged in Ireland, most definitely visits its home country, with flights from Dublin to London, Copenhagen, Helsinki and Oslo (yes - Oslo, NORWAY).

Regarding regulatory oversight - EASA members have the full ability to conduct inspections and issue violations/citations/etc to any EASA airline. NAI would be unable to escape regulatory oversight for numerous reasons: A Spanish, French, or Swedish EASA inspector can conduct a full inspection on an NAI aircraft. NAI headquarters being in Dublin, in under the full authority of the IAA and the IAA can conduct full audits of their operations and paperwork. An IAA inspector can go out anywhere in the system and conduct full inspections. The idea that NAI can escape any regulatory oversight is just downright silly, especially given that it is operating under the bureaucratic mess that is EASA.

If you are going to dislike NAI, do so for legitimate reasons.

That being said, if you wanted to spend the rest of my life and career in the States, I would recommend steering away from Norwegian. Clearly there is enough bad blood that it may very well hurt your future career if NAI is not a long term option. However if you looking to find a way into Europe, and have a way to get an EU/EEA passport or the right to live and work in Europe, NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies.

Once again, it's not so much NAI it's what NAI represents and the damage it will do to the earning potential in this career. Flying an airliner is not entry level, especially transatlantic. Would you want your family flown by an entry level crew? Attracting the best and the brightest requires money and it's clear NAI doesn't care about that. And by design their model is going to pressure every other airline to conform just like has already happened in Europe. This is not a career there, it's an ok job. It's infuriating.

50SeatsofGrey
02-17-2017, 09:47 AM
You should apply, you'll love it there.

jcountry
02-17-2017, 09:47 AM
He's obviously already applied.

And if you've done so much research and don't realize the issue is Flag of Convenience then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not that they have low pay. Even though that sucks it's not the issue.

100% true.

jcountry
02-17-2017, 09:49 AM
To the OP.....

Go ahead an apply. I wish you the very best.

Just don't ever ask for any kind of favor from any of us.

Hope you are OK with that money, no work rules, no rest regs-cause it's the best you will ever do.

Beretta01
02-17-2017, 10:59 AM
I can see it now:

"Hi, I work for OSM Aviation, I'm going to be in your jumpseat today."

Bye, Felicia.

NEDude
02-17-2017, 11:05 AM
Once again, it's not so much NAI it's what NAI represents and the damage it will do to the earning potential in this career. Flying an airliner is not entry level, especially transatlantic. Would you want your family flown by an entry level crew? Attracting the best and the brightest requires money and it's clear NAI doesn't care about that. And by design their model is going to pressure every other airline to conform just like has already happened in Europe. This is not a career there, it's an ok job. It's infuriating.

But if you look at their requirements, they are not entry level. Captains need at least 4,000 hours, 2,000 hours of jet PIC. First officers require 1,500 hours which is is no where near entry level in Europe. Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours.

FlyingJman
02-17-2017, 03:46 PM
But if you look at their requirements, they are not entry level. Captains need at least 4,000 hours, 2,000 hours of jet PIC. First officers require 1,500 hours which is is no where near entry level in Europe. Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours.

"..Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours..."

This is what I'll use to scare my friends and family away from this ridiculousness.

Qotsaautopilot
02-17-2017, 03:59 PM
But if you look at their requirements, they are not entry level. Captains need at least 4,000 hours, 2,000 hours of jet PIC. First officers require 1,500 hours which is is no where near entry level in Europe. Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours.

I'm using your own words. You said it was entry level in post #15

"NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies."

And let's not get caught up in semantics. This thing is a **** show and you know it. Being an airline pilot in Europe has been a dead end for some time now. This NAI flag of convenience is the first chance to spread the European brand of career distruction to a career that has just recently become great again. If it's successful it will proliferate to the point where we are all quitting or just happy to be getting by like you are.

Doctors don't get into the profession to just get by they want to be a top earner.

I'm not a doctor but most pilots get into this career for the same reason. I want to afford to live in a nice waterfront home in a good school district, not have my wife work so she can be home for the kids, send my kids to college, fund a fruitful retirement, pay for my daughters wedding, drive a nice car, have a yellowfin parked out back, see the world with my family on vacation, take them skiing, summer boat trips to the Bahamas, and insure my life so my family is secure in case of my untimely death.

This is now possible in the US and NAI is a big threat to us all just descending into mediocrity just like pilots live in Europe and most Americans are living check to check and will never retire.

SCREW THAT!

mainlineAF
02-17-2017, 05:25 PM
I'm using your own words. You said it was entry level in post #15

"NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies."

And let's not get caught up in semantics. This thing is a **** show and you know it. Being an airline pilot in Europe has been a dead end for some time now. This NAI flag of convenience is the first chance to spread the European brand of career distruction to a career that has just recently become great again. If it's successful it will proliferate to the point where we are all quitting or just happy to be getting by like you are.

Doctors don't get into the profession to just get by they want to be a top earner.

I'm not a doctor but most pilots get into this career for the same reason. I want to afford to live in a nice waterfront home in a good school district, not have my wife work so she can be home for the kids, send my kids to college, fund a fruitful retirement, pay for my daughters wedding, drive a nice car, have a yellowfin parked out back, see the world with my family on vacation, take them skiing, summer boat trips to the Bahamas, and insure my life so my family is secure in case of my untimely death.

This is now possible in the US and NAI is a big threat to us all just descending into mediocrity just like pilots live in Europe and most Americans are living check to check and will never retire.

SCREW THAT!



Yea, but, free markets and cheap tickets!!

CousinEddie
02-17-2017, 05:52 PM
But if you look at their requirements, they are not entry level. Captains need at least 4,000 hours, 2,000 hours of jet PIC. First officers require 1,500 hours which is is no where near entry level in Europe. Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours.

I'd seriously consider peeing in a bottle, while in the left seat, if I were you.

AirAsia Flight 8501: Less-Experienced Co-Pilot Was In Control Before Plane Climbed Too Fast, Reports Say (http://www.ibtimes.com/airasia-flight-8501-less-experienced-co-pilot-was-control-plane-climbed-too-fast-1798636)

Andreas Lubitz and the Global Pilot Scam Threatening Your Safety - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/24/andreas-lubitz-and-the-global-pilot-scam-threatening-your-safety.html)

jcountry
02-17-2017, 05:53 PM
I'm using your own words. You said it was entry level in post #15

"NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies."

And let's not get caught up in semantics. This thing is a **** show and you know it. Being an airline pilot in Europe has been a dead end for some time now. This NAI flag of convenience is the first chance to spread the European brand of career distruction to a career that has just recently become great again. If it's successful it will proliferate to the point where we are all quitting or just happy to be getting by like you are.

Doctors don't get into the profession to just get by they want to be a top earner.

I'm not a doctor but most pilots get into this career for the same reason. I want to afford to live in a nice waterfront home in a good school district, not have my wife work so she can be home for the kids, send my kids to college, fund a fruitful retirement, pay for my daughters wedding, drive a nice car, have a yellowfin parked out back, see the world with my family on vacation, take them skiing, summer boat trips to the Bahamas, and insure my life so my family is secure in case of my untimely death.

This is now possible in the US and NAI is a big threat to us all just descending into mediocrity just like pilots live in Europe and most Americans are living check to check and will never retire.

SCREW THAT!

Well said.

The price of entry into professional aviation is very high. People need to consider what they are getting into.

Pilots considering flying for NAI should really stop and think about the very high probability that no decent carrier would ever hire them.

Pilots are involved with hiring at all the major airlines. I think even management pilots know the score on NAI.

People should head to a decent regional, LCC or elsewhere if they want a good job at a legacy one day. The whole NAI thing could (and should) be a career-killer to anyone in the US.

NEDude
02-18-2017, 02:20 AM
I'm using your own words. You said it was entry level in post #15

"NAI might not be a bad foot in the door. Norwegian, like Ryanair, easyJet and WizzAir, is often an entry level job for young European pilots, and about a mid-level job for a more experienced pilot who may be too old for the European legacies."

And let's not get caught up in semantics. This thing is a **** show and you know it. Being an airline pilot in Europe has been a dead end for some time now. This NAI flag of convenience is the first chance to spread the European brand of career distruction to a career that has just recently become great again. If it's successful it will proliferate to the point where we are all quitting or just happy to be getting by like you are.

Doctors don't get into the profession to just get by they want to be a top earner.

I'm not a doctor but most pilots get into this career for the same reason. I want to afford to live in a nice waterfront home in a good school district, not have my wife work so she can be home for the kids, send my kids to college, fund a fruitful retirement, pay for my daughters wedding, drive a nice car, have a yellowfin parked out back, see the world with my family on vacation, take them skiing, summer boat trips to the Bahamas, and insure my life so my family is secure in case of my untimely death.

This is now possible in the US and NAI is a big threat to us all just descending into mediocrity just like pilots live in Europe and most Americans are living check to check and will never retire.

SCREW THAT!

Norwegian has hired cadet pilots in the past. Just because the USA job opening requires 1,500 hours, does not mean cadets have not been a part of the Norwegian hiring plans in Europe in the past. You are jumping to false conclusions there my friend.

Also, very curious as to where you get your information that aviation is a dead end job in Europe. Certainly does not appear that way to me, or to any of the dozens of other pilots I know over on this side of the pond.

NEDude
02-18-2017, 02:35 AM
I'd seriously consider peeing in a bottle, while in the left seat, if I were you.

AirAsia Flight 8501: Less-Experienced Co-Pilot Was In Control Before Plane Climbed Too Fast, Reports Say (http://www.ibtimes.com/airasia-flight-8501-less-experienced-co-pilot-was-control-plane-climbed-too-fast-1798636)

Andreas Lubitz and the Global Pilot Scam Threatening Your Safety - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/24/andreas-lubitz-and-the-global-pilot-scam-threatening-your-safety.html)

Given that European aviation accident rates are very close to North American accident rates, and that both regions have extremely high safety standards, there is no reason to feel insecure.

adebord
02-18-2017, 07:58 AM
Given that European aviation accident rates are very close to North American accident rates, and that both regions have extremely high safety standards, there is no reason to feel insecure.

Depends on what you consider a European accident.

QZ 8501, FZ 981 and AF 447 all had Euro's at the controls.

WHACKMASTER
02-18-2017, 08:44 AM
Given that European aviation accident rates are very close to North American accident rates, and that both regions have extremely high safety standards, there is no reason to feel insecure.

Nevermind feeling insecure about the safety aspect of inexperienced RJ pilots operating widebodies on long-haul routes. How about feeling insecure about our well paying jobs on this side of the pond going bye bye forever thanks to this FOC NAI scam.

I don't think you get it. We don't want what you're selling and we WILL do what we can to get rid of this cancer if at all possible in order to protect the types of jobs that young entrants into this profession can aspire to.

Making in the low 100s as an Airbus Cptn while working 18 days a month is NOT that kind of job. Good for you if you're content with it but you can keep it. Your NAI cheerleading and justifying is falling on deaf ears.

Sniper66
02-18-2017, 07:06 PM
Nevermind feeling insecure about the safety aspect of inexperienced RJ pilots operating widebodies on long-haul routes. How about feeling insecure about our well paying jobs on this side of the pond going bye bye forever thanks to this FOC NAI scam.

I don't think you get it. We don't want what you're selling and we WILL do what we can to get rid of this cancer if at all possible in order to protect the types of jobs that young entrants into this profession can aspire to.

Making in the low 100s as an Airbus Cptn while working 18 days a month is NOT that kind of job. Good for you if you're content with it but you can keep it. Your NAI cheerleading and justifying is falling on deaf ears.




As far as NEdude

Ignore Him is the best thing you can do
He is the biggest tool on this forum

Qotsaautopilot
02-18-2017, 07:24 PM
Norwegian has hired cadet pilots in the past. Just because the USA job opening requires 1,500 hours, does not mean cadets have not been a part of the Norwegian hiring plans in Europe in the past. You are jumping to false conclusions there my friend.

Also, very curious as to where you get your information that aviation is a dead end job in Europe. Certainly does not appear that way to me, or to any of the dozens of other pilots I know over on this side of the pond.

Is it possible to live the life I described as an airline pilot in Europe? My understanding is that most US FOs make more than European captains. The life I described requires making $300k/yr with 16% on top of that being dropped into your retirement account and having the time off to enjoy that income. This is becoming pretty standard for 12 yr+ captains in the US.

Sure I like flying but I got in to this career to get rich. Maybe not filthy rich to where I have no clue how much money I actually have and pay people to wipe my own ass but rich enough to be able to buy most things and not worry about. If this career cannot provide that why not do something else and fly as a hobby. You think a gynecologist likes looking at roughed up muff day in and day out? He does it because he gets rich from it.

$100-150k is sadly a decent living in most parts of the US because most companies have put so much pressure on wages. With that money you're getting by but still have to budget and stick pretty close to it if you have a family of four or more. It's possible to be content I suppose so I see your point. FOs making half that have to have a second income coming into the family. That puts ridiculous stress on the marriage if you're gone 18-20 days a month. Frankly it doesn't even come close to making the job worth it. It's for a kid in his early 20s with no family. That's a job not a career and if your job cannot become a career it's a dead end job.

Last point being that so many jobs are so volatile that eventually you will find yourself without one and if you weren't making enough money in the good times to be stashing away some serious rainy day money then you are going to be in a world of hurt. In 2016 making $100-150k with a family in most major domicile does not allow you to do that

Jaded N Cynical
02-19-2017, 09:35 AM
Anyone consider that NAI is hiring US pilots to get the operation going? To quell the opposition by hiring US pilots. 3 years down the road they can fire or NOT renew the contracts of those "expensive" US pilots and shift the pilot labor to Asian contracts?

Anyone applying is fooling themselves thinking this will be a career. Don't sell yourselves short.

bay982
02-19-2017, 03:21 PM
As far as NEdude

Ignore Him is the best thing you can do
He is the biggest tool on this forum

NEdude provides an opinion, along with facts to support his argument. His discussion is incomparably superior to that of someone who calls people a 'tool'

iceman49
02-19-2017, 04:29 PM
But if you look at their requirements, they are not entry level. Captains need at least 4,000 hours, 2,000 hours of jet PIC. First officers require 1,500 hours which is is no where near entry level in Europe. Cadet pilots are regularly at the controls of a 737 or A320 with less than 500 hours in Europe. I flew with a first officer last month who had less than 400 total hours.

Exactly, they are not entry level requirements, but they want to pay substantially below what that aircraft should pay. Sorry 400 hours don't cut it.

Beretta01
02-19-2017, 04:45 PM
Anyone consider that NAI is hiring US pilots to get the operation going? To quell the opposition by hiring US pilots. 3 years down the road they can fire or NOT renew the contracts of those "expensive" US pilots and shift the pilot labor to Asian contracts?

Anyone applying is fooling themselves thinking this will be a career. Don't sell yourselves short.

My thoughts exactly. I love all of the pro-NAI guys in here that are all gung-ho about working for "NAI".....you're not working for NAI, you're working for OSM Aviation, you *******ing sellouts.

jcountry
02-19-2017, 04:50 PM
Given that European aviation accident rates are very close to North American accident rates, and that both regions have extremely high safety standards, there is no reason to feel insecure.



Tell that to the families of the Helios victims and the Air France 447 victims, etc.

Incompetent pilots killed every one on those planes.

NEDude
02-19-2017, 08:38 PM
Tell that to the families of the Helios victims and the Air France 447 victims, etc.

Incompetent pilots killed every one on those planes.

I would be happy to tell them that because it is a fact. The accident rate is not zero, not even in the U.S.

NEDude
02-19-2017, 09:02 PM
As far as NEdude

Ignore Him is the best thing you can do
He is the biggest tool on this forum

Just a quick summary:

NAI is not a true 'flag of convenience' scheme because Ireland is a part of the European Union, meaning Norwegian is unable to skirt EU/EEA laws by starting a subsidiary in Ireland. Calling it a 'flag of convenience' also ignores the fact that pilots are also covered under the laws of the nation of their contract (which is Norway or the UK - NOT Singapore as ALPA claims), the nation where they are based, and the nation where the aircraft they are on is registered (ALL Norwegian aircraft are registered in Norway or the EU).

Starting or owning a subsidiary airline in another EU/EEA nation is not new and is not unique to Norwegian. Lufthansa, IAG (British Airways-Iberia), easyJet, and Thomas Cook, to name a few, own and operate subsidiary airlines in nations outside of where their main headquarters is. Most of the subsidiary airlines hold US DOT approval.

The use of contract employees is not new or unique to Norwegian and it is a common practice in many parts of the world. Brussels Airlines, WOW Air, Korean Air, Air China and many others make use of contract pilots and also hold US DOT approval.

Norwegian is an average paying job for the European market. Eurowings, a Lufthansa alter-ego airline which flies to 3 US destinations, pays 15% less for wide body pilots than Norwegian. Where is the ALPA outrage over that - an alter-ego airline significantly undercutting even the LCCs and competing against ALPA carriers?

Legal experts for the authorities on both sides of the Atlantic have examined the 'Open Skies' treaty as it relates to NAI and ALL OF THEM have concluded there is no legal basis for denying, or as the case is now, revoking the operating certificate of NAI. Revoking a legally issued operating certificate on zero legal grounds would only serve to start an aviation trade war between the nations of the Open Skies treaty. Who do you think would benefit from that? You are a fool if you think such a dispute would be beneficial to the careers of U.S. pilots.

If pointing out those facts makes me a tool, then so be it. But ignoring those facts and blindly following the ALPA propaganda makes the rest of you fools.

Qotsaautopilot
02-20-2017, 05:03 AM
Norway is not in the EU and is starting NAI to gain access to EU open skies. That is a Flag of Convenience.

Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.

You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.

Beretta01
02-20-2017, 05:03 AM
Just a quick summary:

NAI is not a true 'flag of convenience' scheme because Ireland is a part of the European Union, meaning Norwegian is unable to skirt EU/EEA laws by starting a subsidiary in Ireland. Calling it a 'flag of convenience' also ignores the fact that pilots are also covered under the laws of the nation of their contract (which is Norway or the UK - NOT Singapore as ALPA claims), the nation where they are based, and the nation where the aircraft they are on is registered (ALL Norwegian aircraft are registered in Norway or the EU).

Starting or owning a subsidiary airline in another EU/EEA nation is not new and is not unique to Norwegian. Lufthansa, IAG (British Airways-Iberia), easyJet, and Thomas Cook, to name a few, own and operate subsidiary airlines in nations outside of where their main headquarters is. Most of the subsidiary airlines hold US DOT approval.

The use of contract employees is not new or unique to Norwegian and it is a common practice in many parts of the world. Brussels Airlines, WOW Air, Korean Air, Air China and many others make use of contract pilots and also hold US DOT approval.

Norwegian is an average paying job for the European market. Eurowings, a Lufthansa alter-ego airline which flies to 3 US destinations, pays 15% less for wide body pilots than Norwegian. Where is the ALPA outrage over that - an alter-ego airline significantly undercutting even the LCCs and competing against ALPA carriers?

Legal experts for the authorities on both sides of the Atlantic have examined the 'Open Skies' treaty as it relates to NAI and ALL OF THEM have concluded there is no legal basis for denying, or as the case is now, revoking the operating certificate of NAI. Revoking a legally issued operating certificate on zero legal grounds would only serve to start an aviation trade war between the nations of the Open Skies treaty. Who do you think would benefit from that? You are a fool if you think such a dispute would be beneficial to the careers of U.S. pilots.

If pointing out those facts makes me a tool, then so be it. But ignoring those facts and blindly following the ALPA propaganda makes the rest of you fools.

Might I ask: is employment at OSM/NAI worth being pseudo-blacklisted from every U.S. 121 air carrier minus Mesa/Go-Jet?

jcountry
02-20-2017, 05:49 AM
Might I ask: is employment at OSM/NAI worth being pseudo-blacklisted from every U.S. 121 air carrier minus Mesa/Go-Jet?


Probably not at regionals. I'd be very surprised if any NAI people ever get hired at legacies.

-If a list is published, I know people who would carry it around-just like an Eastern list. No one wants that following them around for the rest of their career.

galaxy flyer
02-20-2017, 05:51 AM
They said the same about the striking CO pilots--they're all ALPA now. Yes, hiring different and Chief Pilots have a say, but if they need pilots, ex-NAI will hired. Maybe last priority, tho.

GF

NEDude
02-20-2017, 06:29 AM
Norway is not in the EU and is starting NAI to gain access to EU open skies. That is a Flag of Convenience.

Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.

You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.

Norway is in the EEA and as such has access to the European single market just like an EU member. The establishment of its AOC in Ireland does not affect the access of the Norwegian brand to the United States as both Norway and Ireland are covered under the 'Open Skies' treaty. So it sounds like you are now arguing that the US DOT, US airlines and ALPA should have the right to intervene in intra- European agreements and aviation agreements between the EU and other parts of the world.

Not sure if any of the above mentioned airlines have US based crews. But the opposition to NAI originated long before their stated desire to establish US bases. Do any US airlines have foreign based crews still? They have in the not too distant past.

While I am not privy to the upper end of salaries of European legacy pilots, from what I saw in my job search, pilot salaries in general are lower in Europe. But as I have stated before, I live quite comfortably and I have yet to meet a pilot in Europe who is not living comfortably, whether they fly for SAS, Jet Time, Norwegian, easyJet, Avion Express, WOW Air, Cimber, Aer Lingus or Thomas Cook, and regardless whether they live in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Spain, Italy, Lithuania, Belgium or Ireland.

Qotsaautopilot
02-20-2017, 09:22 AM
Norway is in the EEA and as such has access to the European single market just like an EU member. The establishment of its AOC in Ireland does not affect the access of the Norwegian brand to the United States as both Norway and Ireland are covered under the 'Open Skies' treaty. So it sounds like you are now arguing that the US DOT, US airlines and ALPA should have the right to intervene in intra- European agreements and aviation agreements between the EU and other parts of the world.

Not sure if any of the above mentioned airlines have US based crews. But the opposition to NAI originated long before their stated desire to establish US bases. Do any US airlines have foreign based crews still? They have in the not too distant past.

While I am not privy to the upper end of salaries of European legacy pilots, from what I saw in my job search, pilot salaries in general are lower in Europe. But as I have stated before, I live quite comfortably and I have yet to meet a pilot in Europe who is not living comfortably, whether they fly for SAS, Jet Time, Norwegian, easyJet, Avion Express, WOW Air, Cimber, Aer Lingus or Thomas Cook, and regardless whether they live in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Spain, Italy, Lithuania, Belgium or Ireland.

Are you telling me a 787 FO making $5k a month pretax is living comfortably. That's impossible with a family.

I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.

If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.

WHACKMASTER
02-20-2017, 10:14 AM
Exactly ^^^^^. Our profession requires too much training, sacrifice and most importantly....RESPONSIBILITY to just "live comfortably". Electricians should live comfortably. Doctors, pilots, etc., should live well and be able to have financial peace of mind.

What other profession is given the "keys" to a 50-300 million dollar machine and the corresponding 50-450 lives that come with it? If you think that a narrowbody captain making in the low 100s with 12 days off a month is acceptable, then there really is something glaringly wrong with your sense of self-worth and you need to seek help.

MDdoc
02-20-2017, 12:51 PM
Are you telling me a 787 FO making $5k a month pretax is living comfortably. That's impossible with a family.

I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.

If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.

As mentioned before, the 787's aren't on the NAI certificate and the FO's make a bit more than that..believe I saw $7500 a month. Not great by any comparison, but if we are to complain lets use facts and not fiction.

hindsight2020
02-20-2017, 01:19 PM
Are you telling me a 787 FO making $5k a month pretax is living comfortably. That's impossible with a family.

I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.

If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.

I hear ya man, but your position is on the wrong end of the traveling public, which outvotes you. You need to tone down the money umbrage. To paraphrase A Few Good Men: "It's doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove". In this case, what you can leverage and negotiate for.

The assertion comes off as disconnected and entitled, in a country of 320 Million people with a household income median of 60K and DECREASING not even as a function of inflation adjustment, but decreasing in gross value. Getting in front of the street and wanking about the loss of 300K income bracket attainment is not gonna get you anywhere. Society will call your bluff and right ricky tick. "Bye Felicia" kind of thing.

I would keep the income motivation canard to myself if I was advocating for US domestic pilot jobs. Use the safety and carnage angle, because if you go for the "income necessary to keep me interested", a Country chock full of poor people will call your bluff every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They buy that from healthcare providers, they'll never see you in the same light. Don't shoot the messenger, and I happen to agree with you that the math doesn't pencil out for 120k top out as a NB CA. That money is not worth it to me either for an onerously-traveling occupation. Sim building work maybe, but not with the kind of round-the-clock TAFB generally associated with airline work.

galaxy flyer
02-20-2017, 02:08 PM
NAI will hire pilots w/o problem for the simple reason there are far more pilots than the really good legacies need or will need. It has always been such and will be such despite retirements. Loads of guys with marginal backgrounds or credentials Wong attract major US legacies hiring teams, they will go to fly the shiny new jet that pays something more than they have now. I spent a good potion of my career with some of them, especially EA replacement pilots. This's types will go and be proud of it. I guarantee!

GF

The Dominican
02-20-2017, 04:35 PM
NAI will hire pilots w/o problem for the simple reason there are far more pilots than the really good legacies need or will need. It has always been such and will be such despite retirements. Loads of guys with marginal backgrounds or credentials Wong attract major US legacies hiring teams, they will go to fly the shiny new jet that pays something more than they have now. I spent a good potion of my career with some of them, especially EA replacement pilots. This's types will go and be proud of it. I guarantee!

GF

It's my feeling that they'll get all types......., After all..., I'm old enough to remember all the bad talk about the FedEx pilots back in the day they were flying the old Falcon 20's:rolleyes:

Wingdeagle
02-20-2017, 05:07 PM
Tell that to the families of the Helios victims and the Air France 447 victims, etc.

Incompetent pilots killed every one on those planes.

jcountry, AF447 was primarily the result of lack of upset recovery training and should be blamed on both Airbus and Air France in first place. The pilots were in the unfortunate situation of not knowing how to identify and deal with a situation they were never really trained for. Ever since AF447 we all have to go through upset recovery training and there is a reason for that.

I would caution any US pilot to start playing armchair quarterback and pointing fingers at various accidents in Europe and world wide. We in the US had plenty of pilot error accidents of our own leading to CFIT's, runway excursions etc. resulting in loss of lives. In most cases these crews had a total of over 20000 flight hours on the flight deck. (If you want specifics, it would take me 5 minutes to put together a list and pm you).

Now back to NAI pros and cons (and some bashing is good ;-) ).

Cheers :-)

adebord
02-20-2017, 05:18 PM
jcountry, AF447 was primarily the result of lack of upset recovery training and should be blamed on both Airbus and Air France in first place. The pilots were in the unfortunate situation of not knowing how to identify and deal with a situation they were never really trained for. Ever since AF447 we all have to go through upset recovery training and there is a reason for that.

I would caution any US pilot to start playing armchair quarterback and pointing fingers at various accidents in Europe and world wide. We in the US had plenty of pilot error accidents of our own leading to CFIT's, runway excursions etc. resulting in loss of lives. In most cases these crews had a total of over 20000 flight hours on the flight deck. (If you want specifics, it would take me 5 minutes to put together a list and pm you).

Now back to NAI pros and cons (and some bashing is good ;-) ).

Cheers :-)

Go ahead and make a list. My European one will be twice as long. Air France alone has been responsible for 1,591 passenger fatalities, more than any airline in history not named Aeroflot.

galaxy flyer
02-20-2017, 05:27 PM
So, am I, Dominican!

GF

Qotsaautopilot
02-20-2017, 05:36 PM
I hear ya man, but your position is on the wrong end of the traveling public, which outvotes you. You need to tone down the money umbrage. To paraphrase A Few Good Men: "It's doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove". In this case, what you can leverage and negotiate for.

The assertion comes off as disconnected and entitled, in a country of 320 Million people with a household income median of 60K and DECREASING not even as a function of inflation adjustment, but decreasing in gross value. Getting in front of the street and wanking about the loss of 300K income bracket attainment is not gonna get you anywhere. Society will call your bluff and right ricky tick. "Bye Felicia" kind of thing.

I would keep the income motivation canard to myself if I was advocating for US domestic pilot jobs. Use the safety and carnage angle, because if you go for the "income necessary to keep me interested", a Country chock full of poor people will call your bluff every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They buy that from healthcare providers, they'll never see you in the same light. Don't shoot the messenger, and I happen to agree with you that the math doesn't pencil out for 120k top out as a NB CA. That money is not worth it to me either for an onerously-traveling occupation. Sim building work maybe, but not with the kind of round-the-clock TAFB generally associated with airline work.

I hear you, and it certainly wouldn't be my campaign to win hearts and minds. I'm simply making a point to a fellow European pilot trying to justify the compensation. I'm trying to illustrate that there is no justification and that the NAI business model is the thing that separates it from other horrible paying pilot jobs in this country and it's a massive threat to our earning potential.

Further, since everyone in this country is making less and less money they want things for cheaper and cheaper. This causes uninnovative management teams at corporations to go to the easiest place to save money so they can sell things for cheaper and still maintain their massive profits- labor. Now you have more people that are making less so they want things for cheaper and the cycle continues. Before you know it there will be no body left to buy the products. Looks like we are getting sucked into the vortex. Something is going to have to happen because there is so much wealth being created all over the world yet the middle class is shrinking rapidly.

Wingdeagle
02-20-2017, 05:46 PM
Go ahead and make a list. My European one will be twice as long. Air France alone has been responsible for 1,591 passenger fatalities, more than any airline in history not named Aeroflot.

Russian aviation is in a world of it's on, adebord. AA 1465 fatalities, UAL 1174 fatalities. AF447 will not make AA 965 or AA 1420 go away. It's not about who's list is longer (I do not keep one btw.) it's about the fact that NO ONE is immune to mishaps caused by human error or poor training. Somehow I did managed to stay awake in my last CRM class :-).

David Puddy
02-20-2017, 06:50 PM
Why does anyone expect that NAI pilots will be paid anything competitive considering the ultra low-cost model they use? Are Spirit pilots paid as well as Delta pilots? Not by a long shot even though they should be paid a lot better...

So, if NAI uses 737 MAX airplanes out of SWF and PVD and charges $69-159 each way to Ireland and Scotland, what would you EXPECT pilot pay to be?

Extenda
02-21-2017, 09:14 AM
I'm not an economist or a lawyer, but what stops delta/AA/UA from seeing this new PVD-LHR or BDL-Scotland route and eating the cost of flying a 757 on the same route with a similar schedule and cheaper ticket price until NAI disappears? Is that illegal? Price gouging? The majors could easily take the hit for a few months.

Beretta01
02-21-2017, 09:18 AM
I'm not an economist or a lawyer, but what stops delta/AA/UA from seeing this new PVD-LHR or BDL-Scotland route and eating the cost of flying a 757 on the same route with a similar schedule and cheaper ticket price until NAI disappears? Is that illegal? Price gouging? The majors could easily take the hit for a few months.

Oh man, that would be classic.

GogglesPisano
02-21-2017, 09:24 AM
I'm not an economist or a lawyer, but what stops delta/AA/UA from seeing this new PVD-LHR or BDL-Scotland route and eating the cost of flying a 757 on the same route with a similar schedule and cheaper ticket price until NAI disappears? Is that illegal? Price gouging? The majors could easily take the hit for a few months.

That's how they took care of Laker. And they're even meaner and leaner now. Expect it.

Qotsaautopilot
02-21-2017, 09:59 AM
Why does anyone expect that NAI pilots will be paid anything competitive considering the ultra low-cost model they use? Are Spirit pilots paid as well as Delta pilots? Not by a long shot even though they should be paid a lot better...

So, if NAI uses 737 MAX airplanes out of SWF and PVD and charges $69-159 each way to Ireland and Scotland, what would you EXPECT pilot pay to be?

A lot more goes into the cost of running an airline than pilot costs. You can still have industry leading pay and be an ULCC. Our contract at spirit is 6.5 years old and when it was signed it was industry standard in many ways and industry leading in some sections. We are negotiating and I fully expect us to return to that. ALPA and our NC's financial analysis has proven spirit can afford an industry leading narrowbody contract and still be wildly profitable as an ULCC.

NAI pilots have zero leverage and no way to negotiate higher wages.

galaxy flyer
02-21-2017, 11:43 AM
Actually, they have quite a bit of leverage in today's times. Turnover is an expensive problem more easily solved with pay that recruiting non-stop. Corporate pay in the NE is growing rapidly in the face of turnover, for example. We've added 20% in the last 18 months and isnt enough

As to Spirit and NAI, it is CASM that makes a ULCC, not pilot pay rates, but unit pilot costs per ASM at Spirit are still way under that of the legacies. Who's getting paid better?

GF

GogglesPisano
02-21-2017, 12:21 PM
NAI pilots have zero leverage and no way to negotiate higher wages.

Not with a training bond they don't.

galaxy flyer
02-21-2017, 12:40 PM
I've been a chief pilot and I'm still not impressed with training bonds. Aviation is the most mobile of careers--just move and force them to find you, then serve you, then collect. Mind you, I don't think it's honorable, but reality is they can be hard to rnforce, IF you sign in the first place. They may find it tough to get enough pilots to sign on, let alone enforce it. B787 guys are in demand, enforcing a bond in China would be very difficult.

GF

NEDude
02-22-2017, 05:22 AM
Not with a training bond they don't.

The training bond, if you are required to have one (not all are required - specifically 777/787 guys), is three years. After that you are in the clear and free to move along.

The problem for Norwegian, and any other airline dealing with high turnover, is the availability of training slots. If a guy leaves Norwegian at the end of his three years, it may take Norwegian 6-12 months to screen and train his replacement simply due to lack of training capacity. Not sure of the situation in the States right now, but European airlines are struggling with finding enough sim time and instructors.

Not sure of the airline pilot specifics, but a quick Google search shows that it seems to be generally accepted that it costs about twice as to recruit and train a new employee as is does to retain one.

NEDude
02-22-2017, 05:25 AM
I've been a chief pilot and I'm still not impressed with training bonds. Aviation is the most mobile of careers--just move and force them to find you, then serve you, then collect. Mind you, I don't think it's honorable, but reality is they can be hard to rnforce, IF you sign in the first place. They may find it tough to get enough pilots to sign on, let alone enforce it. B787 guys are in demand, enforcing a bond in China would be very difficult.

GF

From what I saw of the training bond issue when I looked at Norwegian you are required to deposit the money into a Norwegian account, or secure a bank guarantee. If you duck out, either Norwegian holds on to the money or you have to deal with your bank. If you did the bank guarantee, it may be hard to come after you while you are in China, but you will have to deal with the credit issues of a defaulted loan when you return home.

Jaded N Cynical
02-22-2017, 08:56 AM
From what I saw of the training bond issue when I looked at Norwegian you are required to deposit the money into a Norwegian account, or secure a bank guarantee. If you duck out, either Norwegian holds on to the money or you have to deal with your bank. If you did the bank guarantee, it may be hard to come after you while you are in China, but you will have to deal with the credit issues of a defaulted loan when you return home.


All for the opportunity to fly for substandard US wages. What a farce. I'd sooner quit aviation than sell myself out for that.

Macjet
02-22-2017, 02:51 PM
Once again, it's not so much NAI it's what NAI represents and the damage it will do to the earning potential in this career. Flying an airliner is not entry level, especially transatlantic. Would you want your family flown by an entry level crew? Attracting the best and the brightest requires money and it's clear NAI doesn't care about that. And by design their model is going to pressure every other airline to conform just like has already happened in Europe. This is not a career there, it's an ok job. It's infuriating.

Disregard: I found the answer.

Windshear
03-27-2017, 06:50 AM
Considering the bad press surrounding NAI's expansion, I wonder if the US pilots taking these jobs would be limiting their future career choices? Would an ALPA carrier hire them in the future, after making a choice like that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NEDude
03-27-2017, 08:57 AM
Considering the bad press surrounding NAI's expansion, I wonder if the US pilots taking these jobs would be limiting their future career choices? Would an ALPA carrier hire them in the future, after making a choice like that?


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I think they would be blacklisted in the same way pilots for Freedom Air were blacklisted, or pilots for GoJets were blacklisted. In other words they will most likely not ever have issues.

Jaded N Cynical
03-27-2017, 09:40 AM
Considering the bad press surrounding NAI's expansion, I wonder if the US pilots taking these jobs would be limiting their future career choices? Would an ALPA carrier hire them in the future, after making a choice like that?


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Pilot's applying at NAI don't worry about this. They already know they can't get hired at US major. It's how they justify settling for less pay.

DarkSideMoon
03-27-2017, 09:52 AM
The training bond, if you are required to have one (not all are required - specifically 777/787 guys), is three years. After that you are in the clear and free to move along.

The problem for Norwegian, and any other airline dealing with high turnover, is the availability of training slots. If a guy leaves Norwegian at the end of his three years, it may take Norwegian 6-12 months to screen and train his replacement simply due to lack of training capacity. Not sure of the situation in the States right now, but European airlines are struggling with finding enough sim time and instructors.

Not sure of the airline pilot specifics, but a quick Google search shows that it seems to be generally accepted that it costs about twice as to recruit and train a new employee as is does to retain one.
Maybe if they paid more they'd have more sim instructors and sim time.

NEDude
03-28-2017, 12:34 AM
Maybe if they paid more they'd have more sim instructors and sim time.

Norwegian is paying competitive rates for European LCCs. And their pay rates will not solve the issue of not enough simulators.

DarkSideMoon
03-28-2017, 01:26 AM
Norwegian is paying competitive rates for European LCCs. And their pay rates will not solve the issue of not enough simulators.

Clearly not competitive enough if they can't hang on to enough sim instructors to keep up with turnover.

The Dominican
03-28-2017, 03:22 AM
Clearly not competitive enough if they can't hang on to enough sim instructors to keep up with turnover.

JAL and ANA are two of the highest paying airlines on the planet and they are having trouble with the level of attrition and growth:rolleyes:

The Dominican
03-28-2017, 03:28 AM
Considering the bad press surrounding NAI's expansion, I wonder if the US pilots taking these jobs would be limiting their future career choices? Would an ALPA carrier hire them in the future, after making a choice like that?k

There are pilots that were scabs and they are working at some of these very ALPA carriers:rolleyes:

As soon as the laser pointer is directed somewhere else, this will blow over just like every "the new thing to blame" that has come before this.

NEDude
03-28-2017, 08:27 AM
Clearly not competitive enough if they can't hang on to enough sim instructors to keep up with turnover.

Even if they paid more than any other airline on the planet, it would still not solve the issue of sim availability.

DarkSideMoon
03-28-2017, 08:34 AM
Even if they paid more than any other airline on the planet, it would still not solve the issue of sim availability.

If only someone out there would trade full motion simulators in exchange for money.

NEDude
03-28-2017, 08:21 PM
If only someone out there would trade full motion simulators in exchange for money.

Wow, what an interesting concept. Wonder why every airline in the world that is having the same issue doesn't just buy more simulators? Perhaps because business decisions are not quite as simple in the real world.

You see in the real world the airline industry is extremely volatile. While things may be looking great right now, if history is any indication, things will not be looking as good five years from now. While you can furlough pilots, cabin crew and other employees, you cannot furlough those multi million dollar simulators. Training providers like CAE cannot just shutdown the simulators and have all the costs disappear. Unlike the United States, most of the rest of the world does not have bankruptcy laws which allow a company to remain in business while debts are reorganised or eliminated. In other words if you invest in a simulator, you had better have a way to pay for it, even when the industry is not doing well. Which is why most of the European airlines, with the exception of some very large legacy airlines like BA, KLM and Lufthansa (which are struggling with training capacity as well), do not have their own simulator centres. Even companies like SAS have to partner with CAE to share the risk.

David Puddy
03-29-2017, 08:56 AM
Considering the bad press surrounding NAI's expansion, I wonder if the US pilots taking these jobs would be limiting their future career choices? Would an ALPA carrier hire them in the future, after making a choice like that?


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Plenty of previously "banned" GoJet pilots working in the majors now....

Typhoonpilot
03-29-2017, 11:34 PM
Meanwhile back at the ranch DAL keeps code sharing away all of their future international growth prospects:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-29/delta-korean-air-to-form-joint-venture-to-share-costs-revenue

ALPA leadership are so stupid it's not even funny. Their airline management have them chasing their tails with Norwegian and the ME3 all while the real threat to their future is taking place right in front of their eyes without them realizing it.

badflaps
03-30-2017, 04:33 AM
Meanwhile back at the ranch DAL keeps code sharing away all of their future international growth prospects:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-29/delta-korean-air-to-form-joint-venture-to-share-costs-revenue

ALPA leadership are so stupid it's not even funny. Their airline management have them chasing their tails with Norwegian and the ME3 all while the real threat to their future is taking place right in front of their eyes without them realizing it.

Bingo! You broke the code. Look at DAL's aircraft buying pattern. Ya, Ya, 787's, 350's, tri 7's.... see any?

iceman49
04-03-2017, 05:50 PM
Would think the majors would consider the NAI pilots, if nothing more than to disrupt their pilot supply and to cost more in training.

captjns
04-04-2017, 03:50 AM
Would think the majors would consider the NAI pilots, if nothing more than to disrupt their pilot supply and to cost more in training.

Not all that apply to the "majors" are fortunate to make through the selection process. Thus there may be a chance to get on with a carrier to gain experience on large transport aircraft. Then there may be hopes of being hired with a major carrier upon reapplication. At the end of the day, for the foreseeable future, there won't be a "supply disruption" on either side of the fense.

Makanakis
04-11-2017, 02:54 AM
Analyst thinks Norwegian can soar where Laker failed (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/analyst-thinks-norwegian-can-soar-laker-failed/)

HVYMETALDRVR
04-12-2017, 06:27 AM
Got a cold call a few weeks ago from a recruiter named Tamara in the UK. Didn't know what it was about until she told me they were recruiting for NAI on the 737MAX.

Maybe they are struggling to find people? For the record, I've never applied there and don't have any interest in being involved in that outfit... Sounds like they resurrected my resume from a few years ago. Come to think of it my resume was floating around PARC and Rishworth back when I was interested in flying in China. That's the only place I can think of that might have it.

Please don't flame me, just passing along information.

Das Auto
05-14-2017, 01:09 PM
Go ahead and make a list. My European one will be twice as long. Air France alone has been responsible for 1,591 passenger fatalities, more than any airline in history not named Aeroflot.

Concorde crashed because it blew a tire which subsequently cause the fuel tank to rupture after it ran over a piece of F.O.D. deposited on the runway by a Continental Airlines DC 10.
If it had been a British Airways Concorde the outcome would have been identical.

There are enough "alternative facts" out there as it is. No need to add to the garbage pile.

Das Auto
05-14-2017, 01:22 PM
Its true that pilots in the U.S. have much more time than their European counterparts when they're starting out, especially since the 1,500 hour ATP rule but the EASA ATPL consists of 14 separate written exams, mandatory classroom hours and multi crew cooperation training in a full motion simulator.

The First Officers over there maybe less experienced but they are very well trained. The FAA ATP written is a joke in comparison.

contrails
05-14-2017, 02:49 PM
Its true that pilots in the U.S. have much more time than their European counterparts when they're starting out, especially since the 1,500 hour ATP rule but the EASA ATPL consists of 14 separate written exams, mandatory classroom hours and multi crew cooperation training in a full motion simulator.

The First Officers over there maybe less experienced but they are very well trained. The FAA ATP written is a joke in comparison.

How did the classroom hours and 14 written exams fair when the chips were down on an A330 over the Atlantic with unreliable airspeed?

Did one of the exams cover what to do when you have +/-10KIAS buffer at FL370?

Continuous full aft sidestick input is the answer, right?

Typhoonpilot
05-14-2017, 07:36 PM
Its true that pilots in the U.S. have much more time than their European counterparts when they're starting out, especially since the 1,500 hour ATP rule but the EASA ATPL consists of 14 separate written exams, mandatory classroom hours and multi crew cooperation training in a full motion simulator.

The First Officers over there maybe less experienced but they are very well trained. The FAA ATP written is a joke in comparison.

A European trolling that the those 14 exams have anything to do with competent pilot skills is funny. I have trained pilots from all over the world for well over two decades and I can very comfortably say that the obsolete theoretical knowledge needed to pass those 14 written exams does not translate to a European pilot being any better than an American who passed the FAA ATP written.

NEDude
05-14-2017, 07:51 PM
How did the classroom hours and 14 written exams fair when the chips were down on an A330 over the Atlantic with unreliable airspeed?

Did one of the exams cover what to do when you have +/-10KIAS buffer at FL370?

Continuous full aft sidestick input is the answer, right?

Did tons of experience prevent that American Airlines pilot from overreacting to wake turbulence and causing structural failure to his aircraft and the loss of 265 lives?

Rapid and full rudder deflection is the answer to wake turbulence, right?

Typhoonpilot
05-14-2017, 08:14 PM
Did tons of experience prevent that American Airlines pilot from overreacting to wake turbulence and causing structural failure to his aircraft and the loss of 265 lives?

Rapid and full rudder deflection is the answer to wake turbulence, right?


That's actually a bad counter-argument NE. The AA pilot had gone through AA's AAMP program. He did what he thought he was trained to do. The AF F.O. did something that no pilot with any common sense would do. Vastly different example.

NEDude
05-14-2017, 08:39 PM
That's actually a bad counter-argument NE. The AA pilot had gone through AA's AAMP program. He did what he thought he was trained to do. The AF F.O. did something that no pilot with any common sense would do. Vastly different example.

Okay...

how about an FAA ATP taking off on a wrong runway? How about an FAA ATP stalling his airplane on final approach?

On a different note, how about referring to United Airlines presentation at the North American Airbus Operators Conference in 2011 (might have been 2012) where they shared the results of putting some of their pilots into an Air France scenario in the A320 simulator? Care to take a guess at what percentage of participants, all FAA ATPs, did exactly what the Air France FO did?

Typhoonpilot
05-15-2017, 03:05 AM
We could do this all day:

Accident: Jet2.com B752 at Alicante on Apr 10th 2017, tail strike on landing


By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Apr 17th 2017 21:37Z, last updated Tuesday, Apr 18th 2017 12:57Z

A Jet2.com Boeing 757-200, registration G-LSAI performing flight LS-271 from Leeds,EN (UK) to Alicante,SP (Spain) with 230 passengers and 8 crew, landed on Alicante's runway 10 at 12:39L (10:39Z) but bounced on landing prompting the captain to take control of the aircraft, however, the tail of the aircraft struck the runway surface on bounce recovery. The aircraft rolled out without further incident. There were no injuries, the aircraft sustained substantial damage however.

Accident: HiFly A332 at Cologne on Sep 18th 2016, touched down short of runway


By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Sep 30th 2016 13:25Z, last updated Wednesday, Mar 15th 2017 18:23Z

A HiFly Airbus A330-200 on behalf of WOW Air, registration CS-TQW performing flight WW-752 (dep Sep 17th) from Keflavik (Iceland) to Cologne/Bonn (Germany) with 163 passengers and 11 crew, landed on Cologne's shorter runway 32L at 00:36L (22:36Z Sep 17th), but touched down ahead of the runway threshold. The aircraft rolled out without further incident, vacated the runway at the last exit and taxied to the terminal.

The aircraft remained on the ground in Cologne for 43 hours, then positioned to Beja (Portugal) as flight WW-752P for a safe landing there, but has not resumed service since, 12 days after the landing in Cologne.


Accident: Jet2.com B738 at Funchal on Feb 17th 2014, tail strike on landing


By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Feb 17th 2014 17:25Z, last updated Friday, Feb 3rd 2017 15:57Z

A Jet2.com Boeing 737-800, registration G-GDFC performing flight LS-389 from Leeds,EN (UK) to Funchal (Portugal) with 176 passengers and 6 crew, landed on Funchal's runway 05 in gusting crosswind conditions, however the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway surface producing visible sparks. The aircraft rolled out without further incident and taxied to the apron. The aircraft received substantial damage.

NEDude
05-15-2017, 04:33 AM
We could do this all day:

Accident: Jet2.com B752 at Alicante on Apr 10th 2017, tail strike on landing


By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Apr 17th 2017 21:37Z, last updated Tuesday, Apr 18th 2017 12:57Z

A Jet2.com Boeing 757-200, registration G-LSAI performing flight LS-271 from Leeds,EN (UK) to Alicante,SP (Spain) with 230 passengers and 8 crew, landed on Alicante's runway 10 at 12:39L (10:39Z) but bounced on landing prompting the captain to take control of the aircraft, however, the tail of the aircraft struck the runway surface on bounce recovery. The aircraft rolled out without further incident. There were no injuries, the aircraft sustained substantial damage however.

Accident: HiFly A332 at Cologne on Sep 18th 2016, touched down short of runway


By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Sep 30th 2016 13:25Z, last updated Wednesday, Mar 15th 2017 18:23Z

A HiFly Airbus A330-200 on behalf of WOW Air, registration CS-TQW performing flight WW-752 (dep Sep 17th) from Keflavik (Iceland) to Cologne/Bonn (Germany) with 163 passengers and 11 crew, landed on Cologne's shorter runway 32L at 00:36L (22:36Z Sep 17th), but touched down ahead of the runway threshold. The aircraft rolled out without further incident, vacated the runway at the last exit and taxied to the terminal.

The aircraft remained on the ground in Cologne for 43 hours, then positioned to Beja (Portugal) as flight WW-752P for a safe landing there, but has not resumed service since, 12 days after the landing in Cologne.


Accident: Jet2.com B738 at Funchal on Feb 17th 2014, tail strike on landing


By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Feb 17th 2014 17:25Z, last updated Friday, Feb 3rd 2017 15:57Z

A Jet2.com Boeing 737-800, registration G-GDFC performing flight LS-389 from Leeds,EN (UK) to Funchal (Portugal) with 176 passengers and 6 crew, landed on Funchal's runway 05 in gusting crosswind conditions, however the tail of the aircraft contacted the runway surface producing visible sparks. The aircraft rolled out without further incident and taxied to the apron. The aircraft received substantial damage.

Yes, you could do it all day and that is the point, this is a ridiculous exercise. The data from the major international aviation and airline organisations is clear, there is very little difference in safety between European and North American airlines. The licensing procedure and requirements of the FAA and EASA yields similar results despite the differences.

Das Auto
05-15-2017, 06:13 AM
[QUOTE=Typhoonpilot;2363828]A European trolling that the those 14 exams have anything to do with competent pilot skills is funny. I have trained pilots from all over the world for well over two decades and I can very comfortably say that the obsolete theoretical knowledge needed to pass those 14 written exams does not translate to a European pilot being any better than an American who passed the FAA ATP written.[/Quotes ]

A European trolling? What an Arrogant statement from an Ignorant American.

Europe. Written and practical exam to obtain the Radio license.

U.S.A. Send a check to the FCC and you're good.

ItnStln
05-15-2017, 07:04 AM
A European trolling? What an Arrogant statement from an Ignorant American.

Prejudiced much?

Das Auto
05-15-2017, 07:46 AM
Prejudiced much?

I'm a U.S. citizen. Some people get all butt hurt if anyone suggests that not everything is the biggest and best in America.

contrails
05-15-2017, 10:09 AM
On a different note, how about referring to United Airlines presentation at the North American Airbus Operators Conference in 2011 (might have been 2012) where they shared the results of putting some of their pilots into an Air France scenario in the A320 simulator? Care to take a guess at what percentage of participants, all FAA ATPs, did exactly what the Air France FO did?

Northwest had it happen in an A-330 for real in Asia not long before AF did their thing. NWA guys set a pitch and held to it and flew out of it a couple minutes later.

That's what pilots do.

People with 90% classroom time and relief pilot hours may react differently.

NEDude
05-15-2017, 11:07 AM
Northwest had it happen in an A-330 for real in Asia not long before AF did their thing. NWA guys set a pitch and held to it and flew out of it a couple minutes later.

That's what pilots do.

People with 90% classroom time and relief pilot hours may react differently.

There is a reason why stall training was changed after the Air France accident, and it wasn't just because of that one accident. It was because when conducting research into pilot reactions to similar scenarios, a large percentage of pilots did the same thing the Air France FO did. And yes, that included the American pilots too.

adebord
05-16-2017, 07:29 AM
Okay...

how about an FAA ATP taking off on a wrong runway? How about an FAA ATP stalling his airplane on final approach?

On a different note, how about referring to United Airlines presentation at the North American Airbus Operators Conference in 2011 (might have been 2012) where they shared the results of putting some of their pilots into an Air France scenario in the A320 simulator? Care to take a guess at what percentage of participants, all FAA ATPs, did exactly what the Air France FO did?

UA had a 757 approaching Ireland in 2011 experience the same unreliable airspeed.

Initiated two proper stall recoveries before flying pitch and power.

European pilots lack applied decision making experience as a product of their 'accelerated' training. It's not their fault EASA is in a magenta line mentality but it will manifest itself when shtf.

NEDude
05-16-2017, 07:35 AM
UA had a 757 approaching Ireland in 2011 experience the same unreliable airspeed.

Initiated two proper stall recoveries before flying pitch and power.

European pilots lack applied decision making experience as a product of their 'accelerated' training. It's not their fault EASA is in a magenta line mentality but it will manifest itself when shtf.

I am certainly glad you do not engage in gross generalisations...

BTW - Referring to my early comment. United stated, at the 2012 North American Airbus Operators Conference, that 40% of their pilots did the same thing the Air France FO did when put into a similar situation in the A320 sim.

And again...the hard data from ICAO and IATA do not back up your comments.

ItnStln
05-16-2017, 09:39 AM
Northwest had it happen in an A-330 for real in Asia not long before AF did their thing. NWA guys set a pitch and held to it and flew out of it a couple minutes later.

That's what pilots do.

People with 90% classroom time and relief pilot hours may react differently.
Do you have any details on this? I'm only asking because I'd like to look at the differences between the two.

captjns
05-16-2017, 01:15 PM
UA had a 757 approaching Ireland in 2011 experience the same unreliable airspeed.

Initiated two proper stall recoveries before flying pitch and power.

European pilots lack applied decision making experience as a product of their 'accelerated' training. It's not their fault EASA is in a magenta line mentality but it will manifest itself when shtf.

I'm sure you have the statistics to back up your claim?:rolleyes:

I've been an expat since 1992, conducting line training well before that. I've flown with some great sticks from all over the world and some not so great sticks too. And yes adebord, even from the U.S. It is true that a 250 hour pilot with a frozen ATPL a Boeing/Airbus pilot does not make. It boils down the continued instruction and training they receive when embarking on their career paths from the onset.

Typhoonpilot
05-16-2017, 02:23 PM
A European trolling? What an Arrogant statement from an Ignorant American.

Europe. Written and practical exam to obtain the Radio license.

U.S.A. Send a check to the FCC and you're good.


Hmmm, not that I need to defend myself here, but I have lived and worked in 5 different countries and speak more than one language fluently. As stated before, I have trained and checked numerous EASA license holders over a significant length of time. They are no better than Americans by any measure, no matter how much theory they think they know over and above what a U.S. licensed pilot has learned via practical training :)

Also I do not claim that Americans are the best pilots in the world. As some may recall if they visit another pilot forum I got into a lengthy discussion on the topic because quite a few Americans were upset that I placed them below number 1 on the list. It's my personal opinion only based on numerous years of training and checking, but I place a couple of other nationalities above Americans as the best overall pilots from a skill and knowledge standpoint as well as being really good guys to fly with. This, of course, is on average. There will always be outliers on either end of the spectrum from all groups.

B757
05-16-2017, 04:04 PM
..I´ve worked and hold licenses from 3 different continents..When I flew in the US, the pilots there were the best..When I flew in Europe, the pilots there were the best..Now, flying in Asia, the pilots here are the best..As you can see, things keep continuously improving..So what´s next..Africa, maybe ??..

Fly safe,
B757

trip
05-16-2017, 08:01 PM
Do you have any details on this? I'm only asking because I'd like to look at the differences between the two.


Google>>Incident: Northwest A333 over East China Sea on Jun 23rd 2009, unreliable airspeed (http://avherald.com/h?article=41bb9740)

NEDude
05-16-2017, 08:03 PM
Do you have any details on this? I'm only asking because I'd like to look at the differences between the two.

I remember hearing about it, but the only detail I can recall is that both NWA and Air France had the optional Thales pitot tubes installed as opposed to the standard Goodrich pitot tubes. I think EASA recommended or required all A330/A340 operators replace the Thales system with the Goodrich system.

captjns
05-17-2017, 02:44 AM
I remember hearing about it, but the only detail I can recall is that both NWA and Air France had the optional Thales pitot tubes installed as opposed to the standard Goodrich pitot tubes. I think EASA recommended or required all A330/A340 operators replace the Thales system with the Goodrich system.

Below is the AD issued by EASA


https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_ad_2009_0195.pdf/AD_2009-0195_1




For aeroplanes with Thales Avionics P/N C16195BA pitot probes installed at positions 1 and 3: Remove the P/N C16195BA pitot probes from positions 1 and 3, and install Goodrich P/N 0851HL pitot probes at positions 1 and 3, in accordance with the instructions of Airbus SB A330-34-3231, or Airbus SB A340-34-4238, or Airbus SB A340-34-5071, as applicable to aeroplane model.

ItnStln
05-17-2017, 04:25 AM
Google>>Incident: Northwest A333 over East China Sea on Jun 23rd 2009, unreliable airspeed (http://avherald.com/h?article=41bb9740)
Thanks, I'll check it out.

ItnStln
05-17-2017, 04:27 AM
I remember hearing about it, but the only detail I can recall is that both NWA and Air France had the optional Thales pitot tubes installed as opposed to the standard Goodrich pitot tubes. I think EASA recommended or required all A330/A340 operators replace the Thales system with the Goodrich system.
That makes sense if there's a common denominator between the two. Thanks!



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