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BeamMeUp
02-23-2017, 07:39 AM
Released 2/23

Norwegian Air will fly you to Europe for $65 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-air-fly-europe-65-dollars-2017-2)

The $65 ticket to Europe is finally here — and Norwegian Air says it will please Donald Trump

Boeing 737Max NorwegianNorwegian Air Boeing 737MAX 8.Boeing

The era of cheap flights to Europe is officially upon us.

On February 23, Norwegian Air announced that it will launch flights from the Northeast of the United States to Europe for as low as $65.

Norwegian's announcement comes a month after Icelandic low cost airline WOW Air launched a $69.99 fare sale from the West Coast of the US to Europe with a stop over in Reykjavík.

Starting in June, the Norwegian low-cost carrier will operate flights from its bases in Newburgh, New York; Hartford, Connecticut; and Providence, Rhode Island to destinations in Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Scotland using the airline's new Boeing 737MAX 8 airplanes.

"We are pleased to announce our new highly-anticipated transatlantic routes. Our new, non-stop service will enable tens of thousands of new travelers to fly between the continents much more comfortably and affordably," Norwegian Air CEO Bjørn Kjos said in a statement.

"Norwegian's latest transatlantic offering is not only great news for the traveling public, but also for the local U.S. economies as we will bring more tourists that will increase spending, consequently creating thousands of new local jobs."

Boeing 737 Norwegian InteriorNorwegian Air Boeing 737 interior.Boeing

According to Norwegian, the $65 tickets are part of an introductory sale. However, if you aren't one of the several thousand travelers lucky enough to get their hands on these tickets, you'll be glad to know that the normal starting price is just $99, Norwegian Air senior vice president of sales, Lars Sande, told Business Insider in an interview.

The newly announced flights to Ireland will be operated by NAI, Norwegian's Irish subsidiary, that finally gained Department of Transportation approval to fly into the US in December after two years of delays.

The airline's Norway-registered operation has been flying into the US since 2013 using its fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliner widebody jets and will operate the new routes to Scotland.

Norwegian's Irish operation has been a great point of controversy over the past few years. NAI is one of several subsidiaries operating under the Norwegian banner. Unlike the rest of Norwegian, NAI is based in Dublin, instead of in Norway. Critics, led by US airlines and their unions, believes this allows NAI to take advantage of Ireland's employment laws, which are significantly less stringent than Norway's. As a result, they say, NAI could hire pilots and cabin crew members from Asia at lower wages to fly transatlantic routes. Norwegian Air flight attendant cabin crewNorwegian Air cabin crew.Norwegian

"What the other airlines and unions are saying are alternative facts and fake news," Sande said. "We are doing exactly what Trump wants to do. We are flying American aircraft, hiring American employees, and we paying local salaries while following local regulations."

In a press conference earlier this month, White House press secretary Sean Spicer seemingly agreed with Norwegian's stance saying the airline's agreement to hire US crew and place orders for Boeing jets represent "huge economic interests" for America.

According Sande, the new bases will start up with 150 crew members while the airline has another 500 crew members based in New York and Fort Lauderdale, Florida to operate its Dreamliners. In addition, Norwegian currently operates an all-Boeing fleet consisting of more than 110 Dreamliners and 737s with another 100-plus Boeing jets on order.


Flyby1206
02-23-2017, 07:41 AM
The 737 routes so far:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2usefdl.jpg

Apokleros
02-23-2017, 08:54 AM
I wonder how many have applied....


Apokleros
02-23-2017, 08:58 AM
We all need to take a stand and refrain from helping them out! In any way. Don't apply!

ShyGuy
02-23-2017, 09:02 AM
Sweeeeet!!!!! Sign me uppp!!!!!!

CAirBear
02-23-2017, 09:17 AM
Somebody made a hell of a good point on another thread. That is:

What is stopping AA, Delta and United from essentially running 75s on the exact same routes for even less? Sure they would lose money, but given their overall profits the last few years they would be fine.

I wonder how long it would take to dismantle them? Very interesting and I sure as hell hope to see it.

NEDude
02-23-2017, 09:50 AM
I wonder how many have applied....

Heard second hand information that they had over 400 applications for the 787 base in FLL, for a base that is supposed to have around 35-40 pilots. That is on top of the supposedly numerous European pilots who have dual US nationality or somehow have the ability to get the right to work in the States and want to go to FLL. No idea about the SWF or PVD bases for the 737 though.

2isclear
02-23-2017, 09:52 AM
Are these fares similar to the 'bare fare' offered by spirit? Do they charge for every little thing like seat assignment?

kansas
02-23-2017, 09:52 AM
No need to compete on the exact same routes when massive feed is already set up into BOS, NYC...just compete out of our fortresses I say.

David Puddy
02-23-2017, 10:04 AM
I hear Ryanair is slated to provide Euro feed from Dublin and EDI - not that they will need it. I am predicting very high load factors in both directions. Weekend in Dublin anyone?

full of luv
02-23-2017, 10:22 AM
I hear Ryanair is slated to provide Euro feed from Dublin and EDI - not that they will need it. I am predicting very high load factors in both directions. Weekend in Dublin anyone?

Sorta a painful weekend if you ask me to endure a 737 both ways across the Atlantic.

robthree
02-23-2017, 10:29 AM
Sorta a painful weekend if you ask me to endure a 737 both ways across the Atlantic.

A coach seat is a coach seat. 6 hours in a 737 across the pond is no different than a 6 hour transcon in a 757. Or a 767. No matter how much we'd like to think it is. An infrequent traveler can't tell the difference. And if the choice is between a miserable seat on NAI and not going, people who don't regularly fly are going to complain about how bad the seat was.

trip
02-23-2017, 11:07 AM
I made a couple searches and it was 400$, guess the low fares are gone.

OneEyedMonster
02-23-2017, 11:21 AM
A coach seat is a coach seat. 6 hours in a 737 across the pond is no different than a 6 hour transcon in a 757. Or a 767. No matter how much we'd like to think it is. An infrequent traveler can't tell the difference. And if the choice is between a miserable seat on NAI and not going, people who don't regularly fly are going to complain about how bad the seat was.

So true. How does a 6 hour United flight in a 737 from SFO to HNL feel more comfortable than a 737 from NAI, crossing a different body of water? Coach international travel on any US legacy carrier is not an enjoyable trip. So why wouldnt people pay less for essentially the same miserable experience?

NAI is a new competitor and Legacy carriers (management) needs to adapt or suffer from it. Like mentioned before, match their flights and undercut them. Blink and they may look back in 10 years and say "wish we would have gone after them when they were just starting out"

NMuir
02-23-2017, 11:30 AM
Awesome, competition in the marketplace is always healthy!

full of luv
02-23-2017, 11:58 AM
Awesome, competition in the marketplace is always healthy!

In this case, a healthy downward anchor on overall pilot compensation in the US. At the end of the day, all pilots are offering their services in the same market.

Duesenflieger
02-23-2017, 12:25 PM
In this case, a healthy downward anchor on overall pilot compensation in the US. At the end of the day, all pilots are offering their services in the same market.

Unfortunately the non-pilot public (newly minted term) does not care for pilot compensation. Until there is an accident that is.

NMuir
02-23-2017, 12:48 PM
In this case, a healthy downward anchor on overall pilot compensation in the US. At the end of the day, all pilots are offering their services in the same market.

We're quite safe actually... the amount of money we get paid is a very small fraction of the actual cost of a ticket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oe8T3AvydU&t=132s

blockplus
02-23-2017, 02:28 PM
The amount you get paid is a small fraction of alot of things.

David Puddy
02-23-2017, 03:01 PM
I made a couple searches and it was 400$, guess the low fares are gone.

It's called yield management. Only the first 10-20 seats of any flight are sold at the cheapest price and they escalate in pricing tiers until the final seats are roughly $400. Sounds like those early flights are selling out.

Valar Morghulis
02-23-2017, 04:12 PM
We're quite safe actually... the amount of money we get paid is a very small fraction of the actual cost of a ticket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oe8T3AvydU&t=132s

OK sport, what does flying a 73Max Capt at NAI get paid? F/O? Hope it's enough to buy a ticket to work or it's provided by the company because you won't be jump seating.

untied
02-23-2017, 04:30 PM
OK sport, what does flying a 73Max Capt at NAI get paid? F/O? Hope it's enough to buy a ticket to work or it's provided by the company because you won't be jump seating.

I usually think it's a bad idea to use the jump seat as a weapon.

In this case....I agree with you.

Those guys better live in base. No way they're getting on my jump seat.

iceman49
02-23-2017, 04:59 PM
Cheap flights to Europe are the real deal — but is that $65 Norwegian Air fare the actual price?

Christy Rakoczy's avatar image By Christy Rakoczy
February 23, 2017

If you love to travel, getting a good deal (like awesome prices on flights to Europe) makes life even sweeter. So you might have been excited to read Norwegian Air's big announcement about $65 nonstop one-way airfares from a few small Northeastern airports in the U.S. to European cities — including Edinburgh, Scotland and Dublin, Ireland.

Europe for $65? You've got the luck of the Irish already and you haven't even been there. Right?

Well... maybe. While the deal is still a pretty good one, added costs like overseas taxes and in-flight perks (like the luxury of actually bringing luggage) means your flight could cost you more than these $65 fares suggest.

What's the real deal with the Norwegian Air flights?
Norwegian's marketers have clearly kissed the Blarney Stone and been granted the gift of persuasion, because their description of the flight deals sounds downright enticing: The airline claims the $65 tickets include taxes, and says it will launch 10 new routes in summer 2017.

The new flights allow travel starting in June at the $65 price: Travelers can fly direct to Scotland, Ireland or Northern Ireland, including the cities of Edinburgh and Belfast, or Dublin and Shannon, from Providence, Rhode Island, or Newburgh, New York. Those flying from Providence can also visit Cork, Ireland. From Bradley in Hartford, Connecticut, tickets are available to Edinburgh.

Assuming you want to come back someday, USA Today reports that return airfares could come in at around $100 to $150 from Ireland and around $225 from Scotland. This means roundtrip could still be less than $300 if you move fast.

And once the introductory $65 ticket offer expires, USA Today writes, regular fares on these routes will start at around $99. Still a pretty good price.

What is the catch — or fine print?
If you're getting out your credit card to book the flight, hold up a second. You're probably going to be cutting into your Guinness budget by spending a few more dollars than the Norwegian ad suggests.

According to USA Today, "overseas taxes can add the equivalent of up to $200 on Norwegian’s U.S.-bound flights."

But wait, Norwegian said taxes were included, didn't they?

Yup... but the included taxes were on the flights to Scotland or Ireland. On your return to the U.S., the taxman cometh for you — and he wants your $200.

And while taxes aren't optional, some additional choices you might make could end up adding even more costs. USA Today went through the process of actually trying to book one of these $65 fares.


They reported some additional expenses you might rack up including:

— $45 to check a bag. Sure, Norweigan doesn't charge for carry-ons but you're limited to only items that fit under the seat in front of you. This means packing pretty lightly for a Europe trip.

— $30 for a meal. The flight is six hours long, so you may get hungry. If you decline the $30 expense for a proper meal, you can buy snacks on flight. Or wait to get to Scotland and enjoy some haggis. (Googles: "What is haggis?" then books in-flight meal.)

— $30 for a little space: if you want to reserve a spot at the bulkhead in the front of the aircraft, which provides extra leg room.

Sign up for The Payoff — your weekly crash course on how to live your best financial life. Additionally, for all your burning money questions, check out Mic’s credit, savings, career, investing and health care hubs for more information — that pays off.
Christy Rakoczy is a graduate of UCLA School of Law and the University of Rochester. She is a full-time writer based in Florida and Pennsylvania.

Sluggo_63
02-24-2017, 12:31 AM
I just bought a roundtrip ticket for my wife on United (coach) from FRA-EWR-FRA. Total cost was $539. The fare was $90 (roundtrip), taxes and fees were the rest.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35672132/FRA%20Fare.jpg

jcountry
02-24-2017, 03:38 AM
I usually think it's a bad idea to use the jump seat as a weapon.

In this case....I agree with you.

Those guys better live in base. No way they're getting on my jump seat.


Mine neither.

I will **** them every single way I can possibly imagine......

"Hey, tower..... Looks like NAI there might be dripping something from his wing.... Might wanna get that looked at."

jcountry
02-24-2017, 03:38 AM
And ****ing Trump......

What a lying sack of turds. "America first" my ass!

Mover
02-24-2017, 03:50 AM
And ****ing Trump......

What a lying sack of turds. "America first" my ass!

You have issues, dude.

prex8390
02-24-2017, 04:30 AM
I usually think it's a bad idea to use the jump seat as a weapon.

In this case....I agree with you.

Those guys better live in base. No way they're getting on my jump seat.

It's not really a weapon when I believe they aren't even a Cass approved airline. Unless you live in base people will be crawling back to their regionals and cfi jobs real quick when their measly pay checks are blown on Amtrak tickets.

teddyballgame
02-24-2017, 05:00 AM
Mine neither.

I will **** them every single way I can possibly imagine......

"Hey, tower..... Looks like NAI there might be dripping something from his wing.... Might wanna get that looked at."


We used to do the same thing to PeoplExpress.

And New York Air.

NMuir
02-24-2017, 12:56 PM
It's not really a weapon when I believe they aren't even a Cass approved airline. Unless you live in base people will be crawling back to their regionals and cfi jobs real quick when their measly pay checks are blown on Amtrak tickets.

Thus they will have to raise their wages

Csy Mon
02-24-2017, 01:09 PM
. Thus they will have to raise their wages

And their ticket prices: The $65 fare across the pond was just to get headlines and attention.
NAI is bleeding money, they are losing $13.44 on average for every ticket they sell and have accumulated massive debt.
They also have a problem recruiting pilots for their bases in Spain and other places in Europe: Some of the candidates being pushed through the B-737 simulators have as little as 180 hrs TT and are unable to land the plane.
Pay-to-play does not attract the best and the brightest I guess.

WHACKMASTER
02-24-2017, 01:37 PM
And their ticket prices: The $65 fare across the pond was just to get headlines and attention.
NAI is bleeding money, they are losing $13.44 on average for every ticket they sell and have accumulated massive debt.
They also have a problem recruiting pilots for their bases in Spain and other places in Europe: Some of the candidates being pushed through the B-737 simulators have as little as 180 hrs TT and are unable to land the plane.
Pay-to-play does not attract the best and the brightest I guess.

Excellent! Where did you source such good news?

GogglesPisano
02-24-2017, 02:01 PM
Yeah, because there's never been low-cost airlines flying across the pond before :rolleyes:

Anyone remember what happened to Laker? How about People Express?

Csy Mon
02-24-2017, 02:21 PM
Excellent! Where did you source such good news?

I am from Norway, I read the newspapers over there and know pilots and instructors for the real Norwegian. (The original Norwegian Airlines, based in Norway have decent pay and work rules, the shell companies with other bases and pay-2-fly schemes not so much, but same owner and same paint job, AND no scope-clause :rolleyes:)

I believe NAI's business model did not count on a real pilot shortage.
They have tons of airplanes on order and short of crews. The compensation package will have to go up, otherwise many pilots will quit and go to China or Japan once their contract is up and for 3 X the pay, or just go to the majors like KLM, SAS, BA, Iberia, etc.

As for the US bases: I doubt too many Americans wants to go through the hassle of getting EU tickets for mediocre compensation.
Been down that road before: I went to Japan and the Middle East to fly for the locals and had to sit for numerous exams and do several pain in the arse check rides, because the pay was a good it was worth the hassle.

Typically pay and benefits will go up to attract quality candidates, not too concerned that NAI will tear down the industry and make us all work for peanuts. Supply and demand..:cool:

WHACKMASTER
02-24-2017, 02:39 PM
There's a lot of us that hope you're right but it seems they'd have a healthy supply of Regional pilots here that would consider it a step up (however shortsighted that might be).

Csy Mon
02-24-2017, 03:12 PM
There's a lot of us that hope you're right but it seems they'd have a healthy supply of Regional pilots here that would consider it a step up (however shortsighted that might be).

The regional pilots signing up for this deal may be stepping on their own d!cks if SWA, JetBlue or UPS call them for an interview while they are locked into a 3 year contract with NAI :eek:

Duesenflieger
02-24-2017, 03:53 PM
I would do it out of sheer desperation only if in the event that no one else would be calling and I would have to remain a regional lifer forever. Especially with the FLL base.

Csy Mon
02-24-2017, 04:33 PM
I would do it out of sheer desperation only if in the event that no one else would be calling and I would have to remain a regional lifer forever. Especially with the FLL base.

Looks like everybody and his grandmother is hiring pilots so you should get the call from better airlines.
I am done now, turned 60 and quit flying, but if I was going to do this dance all over again, I would not waste time on something like this: You are a contractor in your own country, like an expat. You could be gone anytime, no seniority number on the books, no recourse.
Take a quick look at scheduled retirements and apply first to those who will have most immediate retirements, AA perhaps, then apply to everybody on a sliding scale towards fewer retirements. Get guys below you and get some job security. Then enjoy life with a unionized carrier.
Contract jobs used to be emergency jobs, nobody was hiring so you went overseas to put food on the table. Been there, done that.

NEDude
02-24-2017, 10:56 PM
And their ticket prices: The $65 fare across the pond was just to get headlines and attention.
NAI is bleeding money, they are losing $13.44 on average for every ticket they sell and have accumulated massive debt.
They also have a problem recruiting pilots for their bases in Spain and other places in Europe: Some of the candidates being pushed through the B-737 simulators have as little as 180 hrs TT and are unable to land the plane.
Pay-to-play does not attract the best and the brightest I guess.

The NAI subsidiary may be losing money, but the parent company, Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA, had a net profit of $135 million USD (1.135 Billion NOK) in 2016, and a net profit of $29 million USD (246 Million NOK) in 2015. The company has had a net overall profit in 10 of the last 12 years.

Sources:
Norwegian reports record result ? Air Cargo News (http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airlines/single-view/news/norwegian-reports-record-result.html)

https://www.norwegian.com/globalassets/documents/annual-report/nas_annualreport_2015.pdf

Csy Mon
02-25-2017, 05:03 AM
The NAI subsidiary may be losing money, but the parent company, Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA, had a net profit of $135 million USD (1.135 Billion NOK) in 2016, and a net profit of $29 million USD (246 Million NOK) in 2015. The company has had a net overall profit in 10 of the last 12 years.

Sources:
Norwegian reports record result ? Air Cargo News (http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airlines/single-view/news/norwegian-reports-record-result.html)

https://www.norwegian.com/globalassets/documents/annual-report/nas_annualreport_2015.pdf

They are losing money based on every ticket sold, but making up for it selling food, drinks, ear phones, blankets, etc.

PotatoChip
02-25-2017, 06:41 AM
They are losing money based on every ticket sold, but making up for it selling food, drinks, ear phones, blankets, etc.

If they are "making up for it" than they aren't losing money.

Csy Mon
02-25-2017, 08:02 AM
If they are "making up for it" than they aren't losing money.

True, as long as they can sell the extras onboard, and charge for stuff like assigned seat, fast track through security, they are doing ok I guess.
I said earlier, Norwegian Air is loosing money, that was old information: They turned the corner a few years ago and went from red to black on the bottom line.
Now they have massive debts however and if they have to pay industry standards for crews, I can't see how they can keep selling cheap tickets forever. Airplanes cost more or less the same, so does fuel. Investors wants return on the money, etc..:rolleyes:

mainlineAF
02-25-2017, 12:08 PM
True, as long as they can sell the extras onboard, and charge for stuff like assigned seat, fast track through security, they are doing ok I guess.

I said earlier, Norwegian Air is loosing money, that was old information: They turned the corner a few years ago and went from red to black on the bottom line.

Now they have massive debts however and if they have to pay industry standards for crews, I can't see how they can keep selling cheap tickets forever. Airplanes cost more or less the same, so does fuel. Investors wants return on the money, etc..:rolleyes:



AA has massive debt as well. Doesn't stop them from making money.

Csy Mon
02-25-2017, 12:44 PM
AA has massive debt as well. Doesn't stop them from making money.

Yeah and AA pays industry wages and benefits.
What if NAI have to do the same to attract candidates?
No more $99 tickets across the pond.

mainlineAF
02-25-2017, 04:56 PM
Yeah and AA pays industry wages and benefits.

What if NAI have to do the same to attract candidates?

No more $99 tickets across the pond.


Well I wouldn't say AA has industry standard wages and benefits lol.

And plus pilot labor cost is a very small expense in the grand scheme of things.

Csy Mon
02-25-2017, 05:39 PM
Well I wouldn't say AA has industry standard wages and benefits lol.

And plus pilot labor cost is a very small expense in the grand scheme of things.

I didn't say industry leading, I said industry standard: In pattern bargaining there is always somebody with better deals. Last time I checked AA paid more that $300 an hour for a senior Captain's seat.

Pilot labor cost is a very small expense? Sure, another reason NAI should pay industry standard rates instead of flagging out and try to get guys to sign a contract for half price.
It is a free country, if you want to work there, knock yourself out.:rolleyes:

mainlineAF
02-25-2017, 06:09 PM
I didn't say industry leading, I said industry standard: In pattern bargaining there is always somebody with better deals. Last time I checked AA paid more that $300 an hour for a senior Captain's seat.



Pilot labor cost is a very small expense? Sure, another reason NAI should pay industry standard rates instead of flagging out and try to get guys to sign a contract for half price.

It is a free country, if you want to work there, knock yourself out.:rolleyes:



Dude I work for AA. $300/hr for less than 10% of the pilots. Still no work rules or profit sharing.

I'm just pointing out what NAI is doing is legal under the US-EU open skies treaty that Bush 2 signed. It's crap but it is what it is. Better hope the legacies take it serious and compete accordingly.

Csy Mon
02-26-2017, 12:20 AM
More on the $69 fares:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/25/norwegians-low-cost-long-haul-transatlantic-fares-take-off-quickly?CMP=fb_gu

Dude I work for AA. $300/hr for less than 10% of the pilots. Still no work rules or profit sharing.

You brought up AA, I didn't. :rolleyes:

NEDude
02-26-2017, 04:56 AM
I'm just pointing out what NAI is doing is legal under the US-EU open skies treaty that Bush 2 signed. It's crap but it is what it is. Better hope the legacies take it serious and compete accordingly.

This brings up a question I have asked numerous times yet nobody has answered that I have seen.

Everything NAI is doing is 100% legal and in compliance with all treaties. Even the DOT attorneys investigating the matter have said there is no legal basis for denying NAI.

So my question(s) is/are - what is the end game here? Do you think this will be a simple case of the U.S. revoking a legally issued permit on zero legal grounds? Do you think there will be no repercussions, that the E.U. will simply roll over and say that it is okay for the U.S. to arbitrarily deny European airlines without legal justification? Who do you think will benefit from an E.U. - U.S. airline trade war? Will pilots benefit if the "Open Skies" treaty is revoked?

Anyone care to answer?

ItnStln
02-26-2017, 06:14 AM
This brings up a question I have asked numerous times yet nobody has answered that I have seen.

Everything NAI is doing is 100% legal and in compliance with all treaties. Even the DOT attorneys investigating the matter have said there is no legal basis for denying NAI.

So my question(s) is/are - what is the end game here? Do you think this will be a simple case of the U.S. revoking a legally issued permit on zero legal grounds? Do you think there will be no repercussions, that the E.U. will simply roll over and say that it is okay for the U.S. to arbitrarily deny European airlines without legal justification? Who do you think will benefit from an E.U. - U.S. airline trade war? Will pilots benefit if the "Open Skies" treaty is revoked?

Anyone care to answer?
I'm curious as well.

PotatoChip
02-26-2017, 07:56 AM
I'm curious as well.

I've been saying it all along, DenyNAI is horribly misguided. And even more so is all the hate speech and threats on this forum.

If anyone actually cares, they should be directing their ire and efforts at the US government via their elected officials to amend the agreements and treaties that allow this to happen. I have no ill will towards a business operating completely legally, I will just choose not to work there.
Take Allegiant for example. No ill will from me, I just choose not to work there. So did lots of other people. No they have a better contract.

Attack the source of the problem, not the results.

NEDude
02-27-2017, 03:17 AM
So it has been over 24 hours since I asked my question. This thread and any threads dealing with NAI have been pretty active. Should the silence be interpreted to mean when faced with the real potential outcomes and consequences that most of you have not really thought too much about it?

Half wing
02-27-2017, 05:47 AM
This brings up a question I have asked numerous times yet nobody has answered that I have seen.

Everything NAI is doing is 100% legal and in compliance with all treaties. Even the DOT attorneys investigating the matter have said there is no legal basis for denying NAI.

So my question(s) is/are - what is the end game here? Do you think this will be a simple case of the U.S. revoking a legally issued permit on zero legal grounds? No. Do you think there will be no repercussions, that the E.U. will simply roll over and say that it is okay for the U.S. to arbitrarily deny European airlines without legal justification? No. Who do you think will benefit from an E.U. - U.S. airline trade war? Not pilots on either side of the ocean. Will pilots benefit if the "Open Skies" treaty is revoked? Agai,n no.

Anyone care to answer?

Even though I think you would steal from a baby, Ill bite.

I think we are all going to have to make room for international ULCC's. They will have their niche as will the big 3 legacies in the US. The best pay and QOL will always be at the big 3. Companies like WOW will come and go like flies on *******. Pilots at US regionals will be far more likely to get on with a Legacy as opposed to someone who chose to work for NAI or the likes. NAI just puts downward pressure on all pilot pay, including yours NEDude. You claim you don't support NAI and that you just want objective facts but you are supporting them. Why? What is in it for you? Do you just want other pilots to make less than you so you can feel better about yourself? Or so you can feel better about the fact that you sold out and in doing so, you hurt your family? After all, now it will be a lot harder for you to come back and work in the US and make a descent living. Knowing how you support lower pay for all pilots, I sure wouldn't hire you.

NEDude
02-27-2017, 07:28 AM
Even though I think you would steal from a baby, Ill bite.

I think we are all going to have to make room for international ULCC's. They will have their niche as will the big 3 legacies in the US. The best pay and QOL will always be at the big 3. Companies like WOW will come and go like flies on *******. Pilots at US regionals will be far more likely to get on with a Legacy as opposed to someone who chose to work for NAI or the likes. NAI just puts downward pressure on all pilot pay, including yours NEDude. You claim you don't support NAI and that you just want objective facts but you are supporting them. Why? What is in it for you? Do you just want other pilots to make less than you so you can feel better about yourself? Or so you can feel better about the fact that you sold out and in doing so, you hurt your family? After all, now it will be a lot harder for you to come back and work in the US and make a descent living. Knowing how you support lower pay for all pilots, I sure wouldn't hire you.

Clearly you need to do some reading, I have stated numerous times why I am in support of Norwegian and its subsidiaries. Their presence and growth has caused upward pressure on salaries here in Europe, not downward as many are led to believe. The more healthy airlines there are, the more pilot jobs there are. The more pilot jobs there are, the more demand for qualified pilots, which thus increases pay. So your allegation that I support lower pay for pilots is false. Clearly you fail to understand the principles of supply and demand.

As for returning to the States to work, I really don't care if you would hire me as I have EU nationality and am fully established on this side of the Atlantic. I have zero desire to move back to the States for a wide variety of reasons. So you have to try something else if your goal is to somehow make me bad.

WHACKMASTER
02-27-2017, 07:45 AM
So it has been over 24 hours since I asked my question. This thread and any threads dealing with NAI have been pretty active. Should the silence be interpreted to mean when faced with the real potential outcomes and consequences that most of you have not really thought too much about it?

We've thought plenty about the REAL potential outcomes of NAI. Why do you think there's such an uproar. You should be ashamed to continuously defend a carrier that's as much of a cancer to the airline piloting profession as this one. Then again WOW's almost as much of downward pressure with the T&C they have.

What part of "We're going to defend our careers and the future careers of those up and coming" don't you get?

WHACKMASTER
02-27-2017, 07:47 AM
I've been saying it all along, DenyNAI is horribly misguided. And even more so is all the hate speech and threats on this forum.

If anyone actually cares, they should be directing their ire and efforts at the US government via their elected officials to amend the agreements and treaties that allow this to happen. I have no ill will towards a business operating completely legally, I will just choose not to work there.
Take Allegiant for example. No ill will from me, I just choose not to work there. So did lots of other people. No they have a better contract.

Attack the source of the problem, not the results.

Allegiant is not using the flag of several different countries to skirt running a respectable operation.

PotatoChip
02-27-2017, 08:59 AM
Allegiant is not using the flag of several different countries to skirt running a respectable operation.

No, they're doing just fine running shoddy maintenance, disrespected CP's and VP's, and firing pilots for doing their jobs.

Everything NAI is doing is legal. I understand that people don't like it. Rewriting Open Skies or instead creating bilateral agreements with individual countries instead of all of the EU would stop the current model by NAI.

Do that.

ItnStln
02-27-2017, 09:08 AM
Everything NAI is doing is legal. I understand that people don't like it. Rewriting Open Skies or instead creating bilateral agreements with individual countries instead of all of the EU would stop the current model by NAI.

Exactly, don't hate the player, hate the game!

NEDude
02-27-2017, 09:53 AM
We've thought plenty about the REAL potential outcomes of NAI. Why do you think there's such an uproar. You should be ashamed to continuously defend a carrier that's as much of a cancer to the airline piloting profession as this one. Then again WOW's almost as much of downward pressure with the T&C they have.

What part of "We're going to defend our careers and the future careers of those up and coming" don't you get?

People on pilot forums said Virgin America was going to drag down pilot pay as well. Do you care to tell me what has happened to pilot pay at the legacy airlines in the nearly ten years Virgin America has been in operation? People said Allegiant would put downward pressure on pilot pay as well. Again, what has happened to pilot pay as Allegiant has grown in size? Please tell me how these airlines existence have fulfilled the ‘sky is falling’ predictions that was regularly predicted on this and other forums.

I totally get "We're going to defend our careers and the future careers of those up and coming". What I don't understand is how you think persuading the administration to revoke a legally issued permit will accomplish that goal when there will be negative repercussions to doing so.

Half wing
02-27-2017, 11:36 AM
Clearly you need to do some reading, I have stated numerous times why I am in support of Norwegian and its subsidiaries. Their presence and growth has caused upward pressure on salaries here in Europe, not downward as many are led to believe. The more healthy airlines there are, the more pilot jobs there are. The more pilot jobs there are, the more demand for qualified pilots, which thus increases pay. So your allegation that I support lower pay for pilots is false. Clearly you fail to understand the principles of supply and demand.


More supply equals less demand. More supply will not create more demand. Perhaps it is you that fail to understand the principles of supply and demand.

Half wing
02-27-2017, 11:38 AM
People on pilot forums said Virgin America was going to drag down pilot pay as well. Do you care to tell me what has happened to pilot pay at the legacy airlines in the nearly ten years Virgin America has been in operation? People said Allegiant would put downward pressure on pilot pay as well. Again, what has happened to pilot pay as Allegiant has grown in size? Please tell me how these airlines existence have fulfilled the ‘sky is falling’ predictions that was regularly predicted on this and other forums.

I totally get "We're going to defend our careers and the future careers of those up and coming". What I don't understand is how you think persuading the administration to revoke a legally issued permit will accomplish that goal when there will be negative repercussions to doing so.

What exactly are the negative repercussions for pilots to revoking the permit?

NEDude
02-27-2017, 11:47 AM
More supply equals less demand. More supply will not create more demand. Perhaps it is you that fail to understand the principles of supply and demand.

So it is your contention that having less jobs compared to pilots equals more pay?

Okay, got it...the Half Wing theory of supply and demand.

NEDude
02-27-2017, 11:48 AM
What exactly are the negative repercussions for pilots to revoking the permit?

The EU retaliating and limiting opportunities for US airlines.

PotatoChip
02-27-2017, 12:12 PM
What exactly are the negative repercussions for pilots to revoking the permit?

Fewer jobs.

Half wing
02-27-2017, 01:08 PM
So it is your contention that having less jobs compared to pilots equals more pay?

Okay, got it...the Half Wing theory of supply and demand.

More pilots willing to work for peanuts devalues all pilots.

Half wing
02-27-2017, 01:24 PM
The EU retaliating and limiting opportunities for US airlines.

Haha, that's funny. The US is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Plus, it's all a moot point. NAI will be allowed to put their business model to the test. Crappy pilots with no self respect flying the T-shirt and beanie crowd around on a overly crowded airplane. Horrible service, no connections, no business travelers. Pretty much the lowest class airline one can fly on. Luckily, there are still respectable airlines out there that my family would be safe riding on...

Typhoonpilot
02-27-2017, 02:09 PM
Haha, that's funny. The US is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Plus, it's all a moot point. NAI will be allowed to put their business model to the test. Crappy pilots with no self respect flying the T-shirt and beanie crowd around on a overly crowded airplane. Horrible service, no connections, no business travelers. Pretty much the lowest class airline one can fly on. Luckily, there are still respectable airlines out there that my family would be safe riding on...


Just a point of order here. The arrogance of the bolded part is really quite astonishing when you know the training requirements and qualifications of many pilots that fly for foreign airlines.

The number of U.S. major airline pilots that have failed training at foreign airlines is actually very long.

galaxy flyer
02-27-2017, 05:15 PM
Tyhoonpilot,

Would you expect any less here?

GF

NEDude
02-27-2017, 09:15 PM
Haha, that's funny. The US is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Plus, it's all a moot point. NAI will be allowed to put their business model to the test. Crappy pilots with no self respect flying the T-shirt and beanie crowd around on a overly crowded airplane. Horrible service, no connections, no business travelers. Pretty much the lowest class airline one can fly on. Luckily, there are still respectable airlines out there that my family would be safe riding on...

Yeah, the US has never caved when faced with a trade dispute...

Learn your history.

Have you ever flown on Norwegian? Do you have any idea what the service is like? Do you know first hand how it compares to the legacy airlines?

DALFA
02-27-2017, 09:27 PM
They are losing money based on every ticket sold, but making up for it selling food, drinks, ear phones, blankets, etc.

Who cares what makes money and what doesn't. You can't say that Norwegian isn't profitable and that they're losing money and then say they're losing money on their tickets but making up for it with other charges...it's all part of their business plan. They offer those cheap fares because they make up for it with baggage fees etc.

Csy Mon
02-28-2017, 04:44 AM
Who cares what makes money and what doesn't. You can't say that Norwegian isn't profitable and that they're losing money and then say they're losing money on their tickets but making up for it with other charges...it's all part of their business plan. They offer those cheap fares because they make up for it with baggage fees etc.

My bad, I used old information: They were in the red a few years ago.
Profitable now.

ugleeual
02-28-2017, 04:46 AM
They will grow like a wildfire in a few years... same business model as Ryan Air in Ireland/UK. They will start out with these sub $100 fares on every seat and on every route that lets them brake even or lose a little... then they will slowly wean out most of these deep discount fares as customer base and destinations grow. After about 3-4 years they will start making a very modest profit and control ticket prices on the routes they fly.

Most leisure travelers are looking for the cheapest ticket... even if it comes out to be more after the nickel and dime charges at the airport... they are oblivious.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 05:10 AM
They will grow like a wildfire in a few years... same business model as Ryan Air in Ireland/UK. They will start out with these sub $100 fares on every seat and on every route that lets them brake even or lose a little... then they will slowly wean out most of these deep discount fares as customer base and destinations grow. After about 3-4 years they will start making a very modest profit and control ticket prices on the routes they fly.

Most leisure travelers are looking for the cheapest ticket... even if it comes out to be more after the nickel and dime charges at the airport... they are oblivious.

The problem with that argument is that in Europe, every airline has started to nickel and dime you for everything, even the legacies. Reserving seats costs extra, checking bags costs extra, anything other than coffee or tea costs extra. Actually, in case you haven't noticed, the U.S. legacies are doing the same thing. On my last trip to the States a few months ago, bags, seat reservations and food all cost extra on United on the domestic US legs.

When all the costs are figured in, Norwegian, Ryanair and easyJet are all almost always significantly less expensive than the European legacy airlines.

Packrat
02-28-2017, 06:46 AM
Who cares what makes money and what doesn't. You can't say that Norwegian isn't profitable and that they're losing money and then say they're losing money on their tickets but making up for it with other charges...it's all part of their business plan. They offer those cheap fares because they make up for it with baggage fees etc.

Exactly why U.S. airlines are charging baggage fees and selling food/liquor on the planes these days.

Half wing
02-28-2017, 07:07 AM
Fewer jobs.

Nope. Same jobs. 1 for 1 replacement of good jobs for crappy jobs. If NAI displaces Delta or UA off a similar route then it is 1 for 1. NAI Devalues pilots and erode future pilot pay and QOL.

adebord
02-28-2017, 07:11 AM
The problem with that argument is that in Europe, every airline has started to nickel and dime you for everything, even the legacies. Reserving seats costs extra, checking bags costs extra, anything other than coffee or tea costs extra. Actually, in case you haven't noticed, the U.S. legacies are doing the same thing. On my last trip to the States a few months ago, bags, seat reservations and food all cost extra on United on the domestic US legs.

When all the costs are figured in, Norwegian, Ryanair and easyJet are all almost always significantly less expensive than the European legacy airlines.

Bags aren't extra on an international itinerary in the U.S. Even the domestic legs.

Half wing
02-28-2017, 07:12 AM
The problem with that argument is that in Europe, every airline has started to nickel and dime you for everything, even the legacies. Reserving seats costs extra, checking bags costs extra, anything other than coffee or tea costs extra. Actually, in case you haven't noticed, the U.S. legacies are doing the same thing. On my last trip to the States a few months ago, bags, seat reservations and food all cost extra on United on the domestic US legs.

When all the costs are figured in, Norwegian, Ryanair and easyJet are all almost always significantly less expensive than the European legacy airlines.

You get what you pay for.

Half wing
02-28-2017, 07:13 AM
Just a point of order here. The arrogance of the bolded part is really quite astonishing when you know the training requirements and qualifications of many pilots that fly for foreign airlines.

The number of U.S. major airline pilots that have failed training at foreign airlines is actually very long.

What were the requirements to work at NAI as a captain again? Oh yeah, that's right...:rolleyes:

Half wing
02-28-2017, 07:17 AM
Yeah, the US has never caved when faced with a trade dispute...

Learn your history.

Have you ever flown on Norwegian? Do you have any idea what the service is like? Do you know first hand how it compares to the legacy airlines?

How many seats in the NAI 787-9 again? Answer:344 vs. UA 787-9 252. I don't have to fly on them to know what kind of **** they are selling.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 07:23 AM
Bags aren't extra on an international itinerary in the U.S. Even the domestic legs.

But they are on a domestic itinerary.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 07:34 AM
How many seats in the NAI 787-9 again? Answer:344 vs. UA 787-9 252. I don't have to fly on them to know what kind of **** they are selling.


Your arguments are so full of holes it is downright silly.

Norwegian does not have a first/business/"Polaris" class section, meaning more economy seats and thus a higher number of seats overall. Seatguru.com shows the United economy seats at 32 inch pitch and 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. They show Norwegian economy at 31/32 inch pitch in 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. I challenge you to notice any difference sitting in economy on a Norwegian flight vs a United flight. If you want to go up one service level, on United you get 35 inch pitch, with a 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. Going up one class of service in Norwegian you get 46 inch pitch, 19 inch width and 2/3/2 configuration. I guarantee you will notice a difference between Norwegian's Premium Economy vs Economy Plus on United, and it will not be kind to United.

I can speak from personal experience on the 787s for both airlines, there is ZERO difference in economy section. Can you speak from personal experience?

ItnStln
02-28-2017, 07:41 AM
Bags aren't extra on an international itinerary in the U.S. Even the domestic legs.
It must depend on what the airline considers "international," because I paid for bags going to the Caribbean.

Half wing
02-28-2017, 08:10 AM
Your arguments are so full of holes it is downright silly.

Norwegian does not have a first/business/"Polaris" class section, meaning more economy seats and thus a higher number of seats overall. Seatguru.com shows the United economy seats at 32 inch pitch and 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. They show Norwegian economy at 31/32 inch pitch in 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. I challenge you to notice any difference sitting in economy on a Norwegian flight vs a United flight. If you want to go up one service level, on United you get 35 inch pitch, with a 17.3 inch width in a 3/3/3 configuration. Going up one class of service in Norwegian you get 46 inch pitch, 19 inch width and 2/3/2 configuration. I guarantee you will notice a difference between Norwegian's Premium Economy vs Economy Plus on United, and it will not be kind to United.

I can speak from personal experience on the 787s for both airlines, there is ZERO difference in economy section. Can you speak from personal experience?

From the other thread,
"A friend of mine just posted their experience on Norwegian. I'm paraphrasing but, the seats were cramped and uncomfortable (more than normal coach seats) and they weighed everything they had i.e. Wallet, neck pillow, backpack, cellphone, if all carry on items are over 7 kilos you are charged extra. I think they will have some success but the out of the way departure locations, the bad accommodations and the extra charges will limit their appeal. We need to continue to be a quality experience"

I would never fly on NAI but I don't need to to know they are just like any other ULCC. I'm not saying beyond that. It is what it is. They have their place in the market. Some on here seem to accept lower QOL and pay as the new norm. It sad to see the erosion of our profession. Nedude, you seem to take pleasure in it. Enjoy your misery. Now, what should I spend my 18k bonus on?:D

PotatoChip
02-28-2017, 09:11 AM
Nope. Same jobs. 1 for 1 replacement of good jobs for crappy jobs. If NAI displaces Delta or UA off a similar route then it is 1 for 1. NAI Devalues pilots and erode future pilot pay and QOL.

This has nothing to do with one for one.
It has to do with a much larger picture. Denying airlines their legal rights by treaties we are a party to may very well have ramifications that includes fewer jobs.

intrepidcv11
02-28-2017, 09:27 AM
But they are on a domestic itinerary.

If you flew United Domestically in last few months the only reason you had to pay for seat selection was if you wanted Economy Plus. Outside of new basic economy fare you do not have to pay for selecting a normal coach seat on United.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 09:37 AM
From the other thread,
"A friend of mine just posted their experience on Norwegian. I'm paraphrasing but, the seats were cramped and uncomfortable (more than normal coach seats) and they weighed everything they had i.e. Wallet, neck pillow, backpack, cellphone, if all carry on items are over 7 kilos you are charged extra. I think they will have some success but the out of the way departure locations, the bad accommodations and the extra charges will limit their appeal. We need to continue to be a quality experience"

I would never fly on NAI but I don't need to to know they are just like any other ULCC. I'm not saying beyond that. It is what it is. They have their place in the market. Some on here seem to accept lower QOL and pay as the new norm. It sad to see the erosion of our profession. Nedude, you seem to take pleasure in it. Enjoy your misery. Now, what should I spend my 18k bonus on?:D

BS. I have ridden Norwegian 8 round trips in the past year, including twice to the States. Not once, EVER, were carry on bags weighed. Norwegian has a very large operation at my home airport and I have NEVER, ever, seen them weighing carry on items. My experience on Norwegian on the long haul operation is comparable to the legacy airlines. Within Europe their product is similar to the European legacy airlines and FAR outclasses the US domestic products. Come back when you can speak from personal experience.

And sorry to disappoint you, but I am quite happy.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 09:39 AM
If you flew United Domestically in last few months the only reason you had to pay for seat selection was if you wanted Economy Plus. Outside of new basic economy fare you do not have to pay for selecting a normal coach seat on United.

Correction, I used some points from SAS for my most recent flights in the States on United. The year before I had to pay for seat assignments.

NEDude
02-28-2017, 10:15 AM
Half Wing, I have to ask you this - do you even read what you write? I mean seriously, none of it makes any sense.

Examples - You talk about "the erosion of our profession" despite the fact that pay has been steadily increasing over the past five years. Two sentences after you talk about the erosion of the industry, you brag about your $18k bonus. Regional airlines are offering huge bonuses and flow through agreements. So which is it? Is the industry eroding or is pay increasing and you are collecting $18k bonuses?

Another example - You claim Norwegian has cramped seats when the data shows their seat pitch and width is the same as it is on United (and higher than on American...).

You say that you "don't have to fly on them to know what kind of ***** they are selling". How do you know? Do you really think you have more knowledge about what it is like to fly on them than I do?

You seem to be of the belief that supply and demand means that low demand (less pilot jobs) compared to supply (pilots) is somehow beneficial to the supply (pilots). You also claim that NAI is dragging down salaries yet offer no examples of lower paying airlines dragging down pay at other airlines.

You also seem to think I am the unhappy one when you are the one on here complaining.

I mean seriously dude. If you are making a lot of money and raking in $18k bonuses every year, enjoy your life. Stop worrying so much about something that has ZERO evidence of actually happening (eroding the profession).

ItnStln
02-28-2017, 12:48 PM
BS. I have ridden Norwegian 8 round trips in the past year, including twice to the States. Not once, EVER, were carry on bags weighed. Norwegian has a very large operation at my home airport and I have NEVER, ever, seen them weighing carry on items. My experience on Norwegian on the long haul operation is comparable to the legacy airlines. Within Europe their product is similar to the European legacy airlines and FAR outclasses the US domestic products. Come back when you can speak from personal experience.

And sorry to disappoint you, but I am quite happy.
I'm glad to hear from someone who's actually flown on Norwegian instead of just reading what people have heard.

intrepidcv11
02-28-2017, 06:19 PM
Correction, I used some points from SAS for my most recent flights in the States on United. The year before I had to pay for seat assignments.

Correction you did not pay for economy seat selection on UAL in 2015 unless you selected an economy plus seat. UAL has never charged for Econ seat selection before the introduction of basic economy this month. If you paid otherwise you got played.

adebord
02-28-2017, 07:06 PM
Correction you did not pay for economy seat selection on UAL in 2015 unless you selected an economy plus seat. UAL has never charged for Econ seat selection before the introduction of basic economy this month. If you paid otherwise you got played.

Half of what NEDude writes doesn't check out.


Probably an NAI mgmt troll.

e6bpilot
02-28-2017, 07:18 PM
Nobody here has flown NAI...nobody. It is their 737 Max operation that hasn't flown a single leg yet. So maybe everyone should shut their trap until its actually a thing.
We will see what the future holds, but I personally think that without a US network to tap in to, they are going to be contained and extremely limited.

NEDude
03-01-2017, 07:48 AM
Nobody here has flown NAI...nobody. It is their 737 Max operation that hasn't flown a single leg yet. So maybe everyone should shut their trap until its actually a thing.
We will see what the future holds, but I personally think that without a US network to tap in to, they are going to be contained and extremely limited.

I have flown NAI, most of the flights in and out of LGW are "Operated by Norwegian Air International". At least that is what the sticker by the door says.

(I flew Norwegian several times to LGW to sit the EASA exams at the UK CAA building right next to LGW)

NEDude
03-01-2017, 07:50 AM
Correction you did not pay for economy seat selection on UAL in 2015 unless you selected an economy plus seat. UAL has never charged for Econ seat selection before the introduction of basic economy this month. If you paid otherwise you got played.

Just rechecked my receipt for the flight, the receipt was direct from United, not booked through a third party. There is a charge for seat selection.

Grumble
03-01-2017, 01:15 PM
Just rechecked my receipt for the flight, the receipt was direct from United, not booked through a third party. There is a charge for seat selection.

BS. Youre flat out lying.

Filler.

iceman49
03-01-2017, 03:45 PM
Just rechecked my receipt for the flight, the receipt was direct from United, not booked through a third party. There is a charge for seat selection.

Did you select your seat via computer, or talking to res?

intrepidcv11
03-01-2017, 07:36 PM
Just rechecked my receipt for the flight, the receipt was direct from United, not booked through a third party. There is a charge for seat selection.

Give it up fella. Notice the date on the article.

"STEP 6
Wait for the seat map to load. You may select any seat that isn't grey. White seats have no extra charge, but blue and orange seats will cost extra. If you hover your cursor over the seats, a box will come up to show you the seat number and any additional fees for that seat. Choose the seat for the first passenger by clicking on a seat."

How to Reserve a Seat on a United Airlines Flight | USA Today (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/reserve-seat-united-airlines-flight-107115.html)

NEDude
03-01-2017, 08:40 PM
Give it up fella. Notice the date on the article.

"STEP 6
Wait for the seat map to load. You may select any seat that isn't grey. White seats have no extra charge, but blue and orange seats will cost extra. If you hover your cursor over the seats, a box will come up to show you the seat number and any additional fees for that seat. Choose the seat for the first passenger by clicking on a seat."

How to Reserve a Seat on a United Airlines Flight | USA Today (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/reserve-seat-united-airlines-flight-107115.html)

Perhaps it was a blue or orange seat. Don't recall as it was nearly two years ago that I made the purchase. But the charge is there.

Roundup
03-02-2017, 09:25 AM
Why not? Their doing the same thing Southwest does domestically.

e6bpilot
03-02-2017, 09:33 AM
Why not? Their doing the same thing Southwest does domestically.



Not even close.

mainlineAF
03-02-2017, 09:51 AM
Nobody here has flown NAI...nobody. It is their 737 Max operation that hasn't flown a single leg yet. So maybe everyone should shut their trap until its actually a thing.
We will see what the future holds, but I personally think that without a US network to tap in to, they are going to be contained and extremely limited.



Agreed. Now if cabotage restrictions go away then it's time to worry. Until then nothing we can really do about it.

Grumble
03-02-2017, 12:14 PM
Perhaps it was a blue or orange seat. Don't recall as it was nearly two years ago that I made the purchase. But the charge is there.

Then you upgraded. You didn't get charged to pick your seat and your assertstion is still wrong.

NEDude
03-03-2017, 03:11 AM
Then you upgraded. You didn't get charged to pick your seat and your assertstion is still wrong.

The point that in economy sections there is negligible difference between airlines is not wrong. They still charge for bags, they still charge for most drinks and food, MOST charge at least partially for assigned seats and overall the seat width and pitch is similar. Norwegian has a seat pitch of 31-32 inches in economy on the 788, United shows 32 inch pitch, Air Canada, American and British Airways all show 31 inches. On narrow body flights the Norwegian 737 seats are listed at 29-31 inch pitch, typical of most LCCs and not much different than the 30-31 inch pitch listed on Delta 737s or most European legacy airlines that operate the 737 (SAS shows 30-32 inch pitch and KLM shows 30 inch pitch).

THAT was the point, and it is still very much valid.

So here is the question you and everyone else must answer honestly-

JFK-CDG, departing Monday, April 24 and returning Friday April 28. Delta (really Air France) is showing the cheapest option is $2,596 in economy, round trip. On Norwegian, the same days, they are showing a round trip in low fare+, which includes a checked bag, free seat selection, inflight meals, and the standard inflight entertainment (seatback screens with selection of movies and television shows), for $713.70. If you are paying for the ticket, which are you going to choose when the seat and everything else is equal? Be honest...

adebord
03-03-2017, 01:39 PM
The point that in economy sections there is negligible difference between airlines is not wrong. They still charge for bags, they still charge for most drinks and food, MOST charge at least partially for assigned seats and overall the seat width and pitch is similar. Norwegian has a seat pitch of 31-32 inches in economy on the 788, United shows 32 inch pitch, Air Canada, American and British Airways all show 31 inches. On narrow body flights the Norwegian 737 seats are listed at 29-31 inch pitch, typical of most LCCs and not much different than the 30-31 inch pitch listed on Delta 737s or most European legacy airlines that operate the 737 (SAS shows 30-32 inch pitch and KLM shows 30 inch pitch).

THAT was the point, and it is still very much valid.

So here is the question you and everyone else must answer honestly-

JFK-CDG, departing Monday, April 24 and returning Friday April 28. Delta (really Air France) is showing the cheapest option is $2,596 in economy, round trip. On Norwegian, the same days, they are showing a round trip in low fare+, which includes a checked bag, free seat selection, inflight meals, and the standard inflight entertainment (seatback screens with selection of movies and television shows), for $713.70. If you are paying for the ticket, which are you going to choose when the seat and everything else is equal? Be honest...


We can discuss hypothetical fantasies all day long. They mean nothing.

Reality: Am I passenger or a pilot?

Last time I looked this a board for airline pilots.

Reality: Would I prefer to be some broke euro peasant competing with people all over the world to sign a 3 year bill of indentured servitude or have a respectable career that supports my family?


Tough choice man, idk.

btw, good job weaseling out of the lie on paying for a seat and baggage on UA.

intrepidcv11
03-03-2017, 07:16 PM
blah blah blah

You were incorrect and it was pointed out. You could of said 'my bad,' but you figured a diatribe was the better course. You were wrong. Deal with it next time instead of dwelling on inches.

NEDude
03-03-2017, 09:11 PM
You were incorrect and it was pointed out. You could of said 'my bad,' but you figured a diatribe was the better course. You were wrong. Deal with it next time instead of dwelling on inches.

I was wrong.

My point was correct. You could have acknowledged that, but you figured pointing out the error about why I had to pay for a seat assignment was the better course because you could not argue the point itself. Deal with the point of the argument next time instead of a minor error that does not change the overall context.

NEDude
03-03-2017, 09:40 PM
We can discuss hypothetical fantasies all day long. They mean nothing.

Reality: Am I passenger or a pilot?

Last time I looked this a board for airline pilots.

Reality: Would I prefer to be some broke euro peasant competing with people all over the world to sign a 3 year bill of indentured servitude or have a respectable career that supports my family?


Tough choice man, idk.

btw, good job weaseling out of the lie on paying for a seat and baggage on UA.

It was not a lie, it was a mistake about why I had to pay for the seat assignment. And if you can read, it actually was acknowledged by my comment "perhaps it was a blue or orange seat", or perhaps you missed that point. And yes, I have now acknowledged I was wrong on that point as it relates to United. But please acknowledge the correctness of the overall point, that the economy product on legacy airlines differs little, if at all, than the product offered on most LCCs. If you cannot see past my acknowledged mistake about my specific experience with a seat assignment on United two years ago, and see the overall point that was being made, then you really need some help with critical thinking and reasoning. That or you are using the mistake I made about why I had to purchase a seat to distract from the fact that my point was correct and you are afraid to acknowledge that.

But since the entire fear of NAI is based on hypotheticals, discussing hypothetical fantasies has been the whole point of all the Norwegian discussion.

Don't try using the argument that one can look at the history of the shipping industry as an example of the dangers of a "flag of convenience scheme" to apply to NAI. "Flag of Convenience" schemes were established to avoid labour laws, safety regulations and (in modern times) environmental regulations. Norway, as part of the EEA, is subject to all EU laws and regulations with the exception of agriculture and fishing. So NAI does not allow Norwegian to avoid EU labour, safety or environmental laws and regulations. Therefore it does not meet the established "flag of convenience" practices as used in the maritime industry. So any arguments comparing the two, but ignoring the very prominent role of the EU/EEA in the entire NAI matter, are strictly hypothetical.

PS - Reality: Do you shop at Wal Mart or do you go to more expensive stores?

intrepidcv11
03-05-2017, 07:01 PM
I was wrong.

No worries mate...

For some reason there's a term for people from NE who insist they are always correct. It starts with mass and ends in hole.

DALFA
03-06-2017, 09:02 AM
So true. How does a 6 hour United flight in a 737 from SFO to HNL feel more comfortable than a 737 from NAI, crossing a different body of water? Coach international travel on any US legacy carrier is not an enjoyable trip. So why wouldnt people pay less for essentially the same miserable experience?

NAI is a new competitor and Legacy carriers (management) needs to adapt or suffer from it. Like mentioned before, match their flights and undercut them. Blink and they may look back in 10 years and say "wish we would have gone after them when they were just starting out"

NAI 737 seat pitch = 29-31 inches

Delta 737 seat pitch = 31-32 inches (34 inches in comfort plus)

You don't think up to 5 inches of more legroom depending on the seat makes a difference?

Extenda
03-06-2017, 02:28 PM
I asked this in another NAI thread, just curious if anyone had any different thoughts. The legacies are making a ton of money, so why not just temporarily start competing service on the NAI routes with 757/767 for a lower cost ticket and eat the minimal loss? I am sure they can take the hit for a few months. Is that legal? feasible? why or why not?

mainlineAF
03-06-2017, 04:15 PM
I asked this in another NAI thread, just curious if anyone had any different thoughts. The legacies are making a ton of money, so why not just temporarily start competing service on the NAI routes with 757/767 for a lower cost ticket and eat the minimal loss? I am sure they can take the hit for a few months. Is that legal? feasible? why or why not?



Well for one the AA CEO and higher level execs are paid mostly in stock and their responsibility is to the shareholders. Dumping seats into a market would make the stock price decline and they'd make less money in the short term. Most of these management teams are short-sighted and not interested in taking a loss now to maybe pay off in the future.

Sucks for us who have 35 years left. I think we can check the international ULCCs as long as we don't lose cabotage protections.

tomgoodman
03-06-2017, 05:11 PM
Well for one the AA CEO and higher level execs are paid mostly in stock and their responsibility is to the shareholders. Dumping seats into a market would make the stock price decline and they'd make less money in the short term. Most of these management teams are short-sighted and not interested in taking a loss now to maybe pay off in the future. .

That is very true, and it does have one good effect: managers will not spend the vast sums necessary to replace even one pilot with a robot or remote link. The break-even point would not arrive until years later.

Half wing
03-06-2017, 08:12 PM
Nedude, are you a scab?

NEDude
03-06-2017, 09:36 PM
Nedude, are you a scab?

Umm no. Never crossed a picket line. Are you a scab?

mainlineAF
03-07-2017, 04:17 AM
Why do yal bash NEDude? As a pilot at a US legacy I value his input. He's not advocating for us to lose our jobs, he's just giving us his perspective of how NAI has effected the our European counterparts.

He is also just pointing out that the NAI setup is legal under the open skies treaty brought to you by Bush 2.

The same guys mad at NEDude are probably republican voting union members. Lol but my guns!!!!!!

hockeypilot44
03-07-2017, 04:21 AM
Heard second hand information that they had over 400 applications for the 787 base in FLL, for a base that is supposed to have around 35-40 pilots. That is on top of the supposedly numerous European pilots who have dual US nationality or somehow have the ability to get the right to work in the States and want to go to FLL. No idea about the SWF or PVD bases for the 737 though.

I wonder how many of the 400 actually are qualified to do the job.

NEDude
03-07-2017, 06:00 AM
Why do yal bash NEDude? As a pilot at a US legacy I value his input. He's not advocating for us to lose our jobs, he's just giving us his perspective of how NAI has effected the our European counterparts.

He is also just pointing out that the NAI setup is legal under the open skies treaty brought to you by Bush 2.

The same guys mad at NEDude are probably republican voting union members. Lol but my guns!!!!!!

Or like the gun nuts on Facebook who post stuff saying "I believe the Constitution should be followed exactly as originally written. Like and share if you agree", while forgetting their guns are protected by the second AMENDMENT.

Half wing
03-07-2017, 07:36 AM
Umm no. Never crossed a picket line. Are you a scab?

Hell no! I just figured you walk like a duck, quack like a duck so...

NEDude
03-07-2017, 07:45 AM
Hell no! I just figured you walk like a duck, quack like a duck so...

Interesting.

Let me know when you come back to planet earth :rolleyes:



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