Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




iahflyr
02-27-2017, 04:55 AM
Air Wisconsin Signs 5 Year CPA With United.
5 year CPA
65 CRJ-200's
Feb 2018 - Feb 2023
Hub's at ORD and IAD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Fellow Employees,

I am very pleased to announce that yesterday Air Wisconsin and United Airlines executed an exclusive five-year Capacity Purchase Agreement to operate up to 65 CRJ 200 aircraft through February of 2023, with a potential two-year extension. The aircraft will be inducted into United’s network commencing no later than February 2018. This exciting news creates a long term future for our company and provides security and opportunity for our employees as we expand and place our full fleet into service with United.

As many of you may know, for over 20 years through 2006, Air Wisconsin provided regional airline and ground handling services to United Airlines. Many of our current pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers and management employees were part of the team providing those services. We are very proud to be re-establishing our partnership with United and once again serving as a United Express carrier as part of United’s global network. We look forward to providing United’s customers with the safe, reliable and outstanding customer service that is the hallmark of both Air Wisconsin and United Airlines.

I am attaching a letter from Scott Kirby, President of United Airlines, welcoming us back to the United family and outlining the instrumental role of 50-seat aircraft in strengthening United’s network. United is keenly focused on connectivity within its system, and with competitive economics Air Wisconsin is poised to play an important role in that strategy.

We expect our geographic footprint within the United Express network will include hubs in Chicago (ORD) and Washington Dulles (IAD). We are working with United to minimize disruption to our employees and to retain as much of our existing physical infrastructure as possible - including our Milwaukee (MKE), Norfolk (ORF) and Columbia (CAE) maintenance facilities.

Importantly, Air Wisconsin pilots will become eligible to enroll in the United Airlines Career Pathway Program (CPP) which provides qualifying pilots with the opportunity to become pilots for United mainline. As we expand our service for United, our aggressive hiring plans will create fast upgrades for First Officers and the CPP program creates a direct professional pathway into United mainline for all eligible pilots. Our recently announced new hire/first year pay structure and our generous retention payments establishes Air Wisconsin as a premier regional airline for pilots and reflects United’s and our commitment to the long term future and growth of Air Wisconsin.

We will keep you informed and updated as we develop and finalize our plans to transition from our partnership with American into our new partnership with United. Air Wisconsin has had a great relationship over the past 12 years with US Airways/American – and I speak for all of us when I say that it has been a privilege to serve them. I know I can count on all of you in providing outstanding service for American as we complete the remaining term of our flying with them.

I personally want to thank each and every one of you for your loyalty and dedication to Air Wisconsin. I know that the last several months have not been easy for you in the absence of knowledge regarding our company’s future and the anxiety this may have created for you and your families. I along with our leadership team deeply appreciate your professionalism and commitment to proudly delivering an outstanding product each and every day. As we move forward in our new relationship with United Airlines, we will keep you updated on a regular basis and we look forward to working together with you as we embark on this exciting new phase in Air Wisconsin’s future. I am thrilled by the opportunity to announce a new chapter in Air Wisconsin’s proud history! Let’s go!

Sincerely,

Christine

Christine R. Deister

President and Chief Executive Officer


highflyer0685
02-27-2017, 05:03 AM
Good for them. A lot of the mid west guys at AWAC are ecstatic I'm sure. Good bunch of guys over there and I'm glad they can continue flying. Anyone know when the contract begins??

MantisToboggan
02-27-2017, 05:05 AM
Glad to hear. Any chance anyone can post the email?


iahflyr
02-27-2017, 05:16 AM
Does anyone have United's current fleet plan. I'm looking for how many regional jets (50/70/76 seaters) currently operate for UAX. I'm also looking for what scope maximums are. I wonder if these 65 CRJ-200's will be growth, or if they will come at the expense of another operator.

criticalaoa
02-27-2017, 05:20 AM
Yessssssssssss!!!!!!!!! I'm so happy for you guys. Very happy to hear you guys will continue flying be able to support your families. Great group of pilots over there. And welcome to ORD.

LAX2MSP
02-27-2017, 05:24 AM
Does anyone have United's current fleet plan. I'm looking for how many regional jets (50/70/76 seaters) currently operate for UAX. I'm also looking for what scope maximums are. I wonder if these 65 CRJ-200's will be growth, or if they will come at the expense of another operator.

They are coming at the expense of ExpressJet's loss of 145s

AZFlyer
02-27-2017, 05:26 AM
Congrats to you, AWAC pilots.

Squallrider
02-27-2017, 05:26 AM
Does anyone have United's current fleet plan. I'm looking for how many regional jets (50/70/76 seaters) currently operate for UAX. I'm also looking for what scope maximums are. I wonder if these 65 CRJ-200's will be growth, or if they will come at the expense of another operator.

Most likely from another carrier. Probably swapping 145s from expressjet for 200s or they are coking off SkyWest.

What is the united pathway? Is that flow or interview?

criticalaoa
02-27-2017, 05:31 AM
Most likely from another carrier. Probably swapping 145s from expressjet for 200s or they are coking off SkyWest.

What is the united pathway? Is that flow or interview?

It's an interview. Expressjet, commutair all have it.

Aviatormar
02-27-2017, 05:32 AM
It's an interview. Expressjet, commutair all have it.

Can anyone care to explain how it works? Is it just a straight interview? What's the pass rate?

ejpogo
02-27-2017, 05:56 AM
Can anyone care to explain how it works? Is it just a straight interview? What's the pass rate?

First you have to pass the Hogan, which is around 80%. Then you have the interview, and this all comes in seniority order. So it may take a while to get to a class date based on this. Overall, I think there was around a 60ish percent pass rate, but you get two shots at the CPP. You also have two shots at getting hired outside of the CPP.

sweetholyjesus
02-27-2017, 06:21 AM
I think you also need a degree, unlike the flow.

stillcantfly
02-27-2017, 06:22 AM
First you have to pass the Hogan, which is around 80%. Then you have the interview, and this all comes in seniority order. So it may take a while to get to a class date based on this. Overall, I think there was around a 60ish percent pass rate, but you get two shots at the CPP. You also have two shots at getting hired outside of the CPP.

Better then the endeavor SSP good for you guys congrats on the new flying!

Boeing Aviator
02-27-2017, 06:30 AM
Kirby letter to United Emoloyee's

Congrats to all Air Whiskey pilots!! After 32 years - 6 airlines and 2 mergers in this industry I understand the angst and stress you guys have been going through. Welcome to the United Family, hope to see you in the right seat flying with me someday soon!

Dear Team,

To be the best airline in the world, there are two "must haves": the best people and the best route network. There's no doubt in my mind that we have the best people. Since joining United I've been consistently impressed by your energy, your enthusiasm and especially your ambition to compete and win.

We have the greatest route network potential in the world, with hubs in the five airports with the highest passenger volumes in the U.S. strengthened by two fantastic hubs at IAH and DEN. But we haven't fully realized the potential of that network... yet.

Despite all of our advantages, what's happened over the past five or six years is United has been shrinking, while our competitors have been growing at our expense. In particular, while we maintained our industry-leading international network, we've been shrinking domestically. In the same time frame, the domestic U.S. market has gone from being a historic money loser to being the most profitable place to fly anywhere in the world - and because weve been shrinking, we haven't benefitted in the same manner as our competitors.

This must change. Now, we're going to continue on our journey to become the world's best airline by realizing the full potential of our network. The foundation of any airline is the route network, and we're going to start realizing our network potential in two ways: first, by improving connectivity through our hubs, and, second, by competing and winning in our local hub markets by offering products and flight times that appeal to customers, especially frequent business travelers.

Network connectivity

One of the most important things to make a hub successful is connectivity. The more connections we offer and the higher the percentage of connecting customers we have flying through the hub, the bigger our competitive advantage.

When we add a new route to a hub that brings in more connecting traffic, it brings more customers to all of our other flights at that hub. All of our other flights become more successful, and then we can upgauge flights or add destinations that wouldn't have been profitable before. Those upgauged flights and new destinations, in turn, bring more customers to flow back through the network so we can add a new round of destinations, frequencies and upgauges, and the cycle goes on and on. It's exponential, and it becomes an upward spiral.

As an example, DEN is our most profitable hub today, and thats largely because it's also our highest percentage domestic connecting hub, which has allowed us to continue to grow there over the past few years.

Another good competitive example of how connectivity helps us compete and win would be a flight from ORD to LAX, where we might have 60 percent of the people on that flight connecting from 35 other destinations. Even if American (AA) offers the same flight, at the same time, if we're bigger and they can only connect passengers from 25 other destinations versus our 35, we'd have an extra 10 to 15 customers for which AA can't compete. That's the difference between a flight that's really profitable for us and a flight that's break-even or loses money for them. And the competitive advantage is even stronger versus low-cost carriers that can only compete with us for local traffic.

Profitable growth is another important way well be adding connectivity to our hubs: For example, every flight we add at ORD results in up to 80 additional possible connections. Another way to add connectivity is to realign the banks of flights. We'll be realigning banks at several of our hubs, including ORD, IAH and EWR, to maximize the total number of connecting flights for our customers.

Competing and winning in our hubs

We also need to compete and win in our hubs by offering local business travelers the customer experience and convenient flight times that will make them loyal to United. This includes upgauging our flights in highly competitive business markets, like between one of our hubs and that of one of our competitors.

A decade ago, from EWR to ATL (Atlanta), we flew eight flights a day on Boeing 737s. Delta (DL) flew 11 flights a day on mainline equipment. ATL is a bigger hub with more connectivity, so its 11 flights versus our eight made sense, but we still had a competitive business schedule for customers that lived in EWR, and when our frequent flyers in EWR wanted to go to ATL, they chose us. By 2013, we were flying six regional jets a day. Guess what happened then? Many of our EWR customers switched to DL, because they didn't want to fly on regional jets and we didn't have the frequency to support their business needs. That didn't just happen in the EWR to ATL market, it also happened in markets from EWR to DTW (Detroit), MSP (Minneapolis), DFW (Dallas/Fort Worth), CLT (Charlotte, North Carolina), etc., and across the board in many of our competitive hub-to-hub markets.

We are going to fix that. By this summer, we'll return to flying eight mainline EWR-ATL flights each weekday at times that are convenient for business travelers. Additionally, summer over summer, we have increased frequencies between ORD and PHX (Phoenix) by three flights and between ORD and MIA (Miami) by two flights. This is something we need to do across the system in competitive markets. It's not going to happen overnight, but this is the path to our future success.

Using regional feed to support mainline growth

At the same time, regional jets play an incredibly important supporting role in our network, because they help us serve small destinations profitably and feed traffic we wouldn't otherwise have into our hubs. The key is using them in the right markets. For example, a regional route from ORD to Rochester, Minnesota (RST) isn't a big enough market to support a mainline aircraft, but our ability to serve that small city with the right size airplane allows us to feed thousands of additional passengers through ORD and beyond.

Regionals are critical to growing connectivity at our hubs, feeding more traffic to the mainline and using that to grow the mainline. Since our regional partners are flying with the United brand painted on the airplane, we have to hold them to the same high standards of reliability and customer service that we hold ourselves to at the mainline. Our current regional partners provide great, seamless service and reliability in feeding today's network. But we have to use them in the right markets, not places like EWR-ATL.

To ensure we have the regional lift to deliver the increase in connecting traffic we need, we are partnering with former United Express carrier, Air Wisconsin (ZW). We expect that ZW will start flying early next year and have approximately 50 regional jets for us by next summer, with the expectation of adding 15 more in the future. They currently fly these aircraft for AA, so this is a great addition for us in two ways: We get to add these additional aircraft feeding small-city traffic into our hubs, and AA loses lift that used to be feeding its hubs. We plan to use these aircraft in the right kind of markets - meaning we'll be adding more small cities - such as RST and COU (Columbia, Missouri) - that can feed additional profitable traffic into our hubs that in turn will help us grow the mainline.

It's important to note that we are not growing our fleet of 50-seat aircraft, but as other partners have upgauged some of our 50 seat aircraft to 70- and 76-seat aircraft, our new partnership with ZW will enable us to maintain a consistent level of flying across our domestic network as we also upgauge and grow the mainline.

What's next?

While United has spent several years shrinking and being a docile competitor, starting this summer, were going back on offense! We are going to compete and win across the board in our hubs. That game plan kicked off with a number of new domestic and international flights that went on sale Saturday for flying beginning this summer. In total, weve added service to 31 destinations across the U.S. and Europe, including the addition of four all-new destinations: CMI (Champaign, Illinois), COU, RST and STS.
Here's a map of the additional flying we're announcing for this summer:

Map displaying additional flight announcements for
this summer

And here's a breakdown by hub, including the fleet types we're using for each of these new routes:


New
Destinations
New
Markets
Seasonal
Extensions
Frequency
Additions
DEN
COU 1X CRJ
SBP 1X E75
KOA 1X 752
ABQ #5 E70
FLL #2 738
MCO #4 320
TPA #2 739
EWR

SMF 1X 319
SLC 1X 738
ATL #7,8 738
DTW #7 E75
PDX #2 320
IAD


FLL 1X 738
JAX #3 E75
PVD #4 CR7
PWM #3,4 CR7
ROA #3 DH2
IAH

SGF 2X ERJ

ATL #8 E75
CHS #3 E75
ORD
CMI 3X ERJ
RST 3X ERJ
COU 2X CRJ
GEG 1X 320
CHO 1X CRJ
RNO 1X 319
TUS 1X E75
FLL #3 739
RSW #2 738
SFO
STS 3X CRJ
GEG 2X E75
BDL 1X 319
CVG 1X 320
DTW 1X 319
MSY 1X 320
MUC 1X 788
FCA 1X CR7

Im excited that we are adding flying at almost all of our hubs this summer. While I wish we could realize all of our growth aspirations overnight, it will take several years and were prioritizing growth in competitive markets in the near term.
ORD is a great hub and a competitive battleground where were going to grow basically as fast as the city can get us gates. With the exception of LAX, all of our other hubs also get varying levels of growth with new destinations and frequencies. Remember the upward spiral: Growing our hubs makes all of our existing flying that much stronger.
We are not adding any additional flying at LAX at this time because we need more gates before we can embark on a growth journey there. We are committed to LAX for the long game - exemplified through our recently remodeled and reopened United Club -- and were working hard to secure additional facilities that will give us the ability to compete vigorously. I believe in the future of LAX and its critical role as one of our hubs, and, as we are able to get commitments for more gates, Im looking forward to growth in LAX.
In addition to our domestic growth, we're also introducing a seasonal SFO-MUC (Munich) flight for the first time. Our joint venture (JV) partnerships are important to United's success, and we need to work cooperatively with our partners to make all of us more competitive. Through these government-approved partnerships, we jointly coordinate our schedules, sales, marketing and customer service to offer our customers many more travel options than we would otherwise be able to provide by ourselves. By cooperating closely and sharing the economic benefits in these relationships, we provide much better access for all customers to the broader networks of both United and those of our important partners. I haven't been shy about telling you and our JV partners, however, that the relationships need to be balanced - both financially and in terms of the amount of flying each airline does. Historically, United has been shrinking while our JV partners have been growing. The addition of this SFO-MUC flight is a down payment on restoring the equity in flying JV routes we all want and deserve.
We have a lot of work ahead to transform our network into the best in the world, but this summer is a great start. In the meantime, as I travel around the system - and I am doing a lot of that - I have never seen a team of aviation professionals working harder, smarter and more collaboratively than all of you to make United the worlds best airline for you, our customers and everyone we serve.
Let's go!
Scott
p.s. I'm sorry for the really long note, but I'm just so excited about the future here at United that I couldn't help myself.

LongTimeListenr
02-27-2017, 06:42 AM
"our generous retention payments establishes Air Wisconsin as a premier regional airline for pilots"

Ummmmm, about that.

rickair7777
02-27-2017, 06:50 AM
Congrats. Glad it was them and not mesa.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 06:52 AM
Awesome news for AWAC. Congrats guys!!

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 07:11 AM
Kirby letter to United Emoloyee's

Congrats to all Air Whiskey pilots!! After 32 years - 6 airlines and 2 mergers in this industry I understand the angst and stress you guys have been going through. Welcome to the United Family, hope to see you in the right seat flying with me someday soon!

Dear Team,

To be the best airline in the world, there are two "must haves": the best people and the best route network. There's no doubt in my mind that we have the best people. Since joining United I've been consistently impressed by your energy, your enthusiasm and especially your ambition to compete and win.

We have the greatest route network potential in the world, with hubs in the five airports with the highest passenger volumes in the U.S. strengthened by two fantastic hubs at IAH and DEN. But we haven't fully realized the potential of that network... yet.

Despite all of our advantages, what's happened over the past five or six years is United has been shrinking, while our competitors have been growing at our expense. In particular, while we maintained our industry-leading international network, we've been shrinking domestically. In the same time frame, the domestic U.S. market has gone from being a historic money loser to being the most profitable place to fly anywhere in the world - and because weve been shrinking, we haven't benefitted in the same manner as our competitors.

This must change. Now, we're going to continue on our journey to become the world's best airline by realizing the full potential of our network. The foundation of any airline is the route network, and we're going to start realizing our network potential in two ways: first, by improving connectivity through our hubs, and, second, by competing and winning in our local hub markets by offering products and flight times that appeal to customers, especially frequent business travelers.

Network connectivity

One of the most important things to make a hub successful is connectivity. The more connections we offer and the higher the percentage of connecting customers we have flying through the hub, the bigger our competitive advantage.

When we add a new route to a hub that brings in more connecting traffic, it brings more customers to all of our other flights at that hub. All of our other flights become more successful, and then we can upgauge flights or add destinations that wouldn't have been profitable before. Those upgauged flights and new destinations, in turn, bring more customers to flow back through the network so we can add a new round of destinations, frequencies and upgauges, and the cycle goes on and on. It's exponential, and it becomes an upward spiral.

As an example, DEN is our most profitable hub today, and thats largely because it's also our highest percentage domestic connecting hub, which has allowed us to continue to grow there over the past few years.

Another good competitive example of how connectivity helps us compete and win would be a flight from ORD to LAX, where we might have 60 percent of the people on that flight connecting from 35 other destinations. Even if American (AA) offers the same flight, at the same time, if we're bigger and they can only connect passengers from 25 other destinations versus our 35, we'd have an extra 10 to 15 customers for which AA can't compete. That's the difference between a flight that's really profitable for us and a flight that's break-even or loses money for them. And the competitive advantage is even stronger versus low-cost carriers that can only compete with us for local traffic.

Profitable growth is another important way well be adding connectivity to our hubs: For example, every flight we add at ORD results in up to 80 additional possible connections. Another way to add connectivity is to realign the banks of flights. We'll be realigning banks at several of our hubs, including ORD, IAH and EWR, to maximize the total number of connecting flights for our customers.

Competing and winning in our hubs

We also need to compete and win in our hubs by offering local business travelers the customer experience and convenient flight times that will make them loyal to United. This includes upgauging our flights in highly competitive business markets, like between one of our hubs and that of one of our competitors.

A decade ago, from EWR to ATL (Atlanta), we flew eight flights a day on Boeing 737s. Delta (DL) flew 11 flights a day on mainline equipment. ATL is a bigger hub with more connectivity, so its 11 flights versus our eight made sense, but we still had a competitive business schedule for customers that lived in EWR, and when our frequent flyers in EWR wanted to go to ATL, they chose us. By 2013, we were flying six regional jets a day. Guess what happened then? Many of our EWR customers switched to DL, because they didn't want to fly on regional jets and we didn't have the frequency to support their business needs. That didn't just happen in the EWR to ATL market, it also happened in markets from EWR to DTW (Detroit), MSP (Minneapolis), DFW (Dallas/Fort Worth), CLT (Charlotte, North Carolina), etc., and across the board in many of our competitive hub-to-hub markets.

We are going to fix that. By this summer, we'll return to flying eight mainline EWR-ATL flights each weekday at times that are convenient for business travelers. Additionally, summer over summer, we have increased frequencies between ORD and PHX (Phoenix) by three flights and between ORD and MIA (Miami) by two flights. This is something we need to do across the system in competitive markets. It's not going to happen overnight, but this is the path to our future success.

Using regional feed to support mainline growth

At the same time, regional jets play an incredibly important supporting role in our network, because they help us serve small destinations profitably and feed traffic we wouldn't otherwise have into our hubs. The key is using them in the right markets. For example, a regional route from ORD to Rochester, Minnesota (RST) isn't a big enough market to support a mainline aircraft, but our ability to serve that small city with the right size airplane allows us to feed thousands of additional passengers through ORD and beyond.

Regionals are critical to growing connectivity at our hubs, feeding more traffic to the mainline and using that to grow the mainline. Since our regional partners are flying with the United brand painted on the airplane, we have to hold them to the same high standards of reliability and customer service that we hold ourselves to at the mainline. Our current regional partners provide great, seamless service and reliability in feeding today's network. But we have to use them in the right markets, not places like EWR-ATL.

To ensure we have the regional lift to deliver the increase in connecting traffic we need, we are partnering with former United Express carrier, Air Wisconsin (ZW). We expect that ZW will start flying early next year and have approximately 50 regional jets for us by next summer, with the expectation of adding 15 more in the future. They currently fly these aircraft for AA, so this is a great addition for us in two ways: We get to add these additional aircraft feeding small-city traffic into our hubs, and AA loses lift that used to be feeding its hubs. We plan to use these aircraft in the right kind of markets - meaning we'll be adding more small cities - such as RST and COU (Columbia, Missouri) - that can feed additional profitable traffic into our hubs that in turn will help us grow the mainline.

It's important to note that we are not growing our fleet of 50-seat aircraft, but as other partners have upgauged some of our 50 seat aircraft to 70- and 76-seat aircraft, our new partnership with ZW will enable us to maintain a consistent level of flying across our domestic network as we also upgauge and grow the mainline.

What's next?

While United has spent several years shrinking and being a docile competitor, starting this summer, were going back on offense! We are going to compete and win across the board in our hubs. That game plan kicked off with a number of new domestic and international flights that went on sale Saturday for flying beginning this summer. In total, weve added service to 31 destinations across the U.S. and Europe, including the addition of four all-new destinations: CMI (Champaign, Illinois), COU, RST and STS.
Here's a map of the additional flying we're announcing for this summer:

Map displaying additional flight announcements for
this summer

And here's a breakdown by hub, including the fleet types we're using for each of these new routes:


New
Destinations
New
Markets
Seasonal
Extensions
Frequency
Additions
DEN
COU 1X CRJ
SBP 1X E75
KOA 1X 752
ABQ #5 E70
FLL #2 738
MCO #4 320
TPA #2 739
EWR

SMF 1X 319
SLC 1X 738
ATL #7,8 738
DTW #7 E75
PDX #2 320
IAD


FLL 1X 738
JAX #3 E75
PVD #4 CR7
PWM #3,4 CR7
ROA #3 DH2
IAH

SGF 2X ERJ

ATL #8 E75
CHS #3 E75
ORD
CMI 3X ERJ
RST 3X ERJ
COU 2X CRJ
GEG 1X 320
CHO 1X CRJ
RNO 1X 319
TUS 1X E75
FLL #3 739
RSW #2 738
SFO
STS 3X CRJ
GEG 2X E75
BDL 1X 319
CVG 1X 320
DTW 1X 319
MSY 1X 320
MUC 1X 788
FCA 1X CR7

Im excited that we are adding flying at almost all of our hubs this summer. While I wish we could realize all of our growth aspirations overnight, it will take several years and were prioritizing growth in competitive markets in the near term.
ORD is a great hub and a competitive battleground where were going to grow basically as fast as the city can get us gates. With the exception of LAX, all of our other hubs also get varying levels of growth with new destinations and frequencies. Remember the upward spiral: Growing our hubs makes all of our existing flying that much stronger.
We are not adding any additional flying at LAX at this time because we need more gates before we can embark on a growth journey there. We are committed to LAX for the long game - exemplified through our recently remodeled and reopened United Club -- and were working hard to secure additional facilities that will give us the ability to compete vigorously. I believe in the future of LAX and its critical role as one of our hubs, and, as we are able to get commitments for more gates, Im looking forward to growth in LAX.
In addition to our domestic growth, we're also introducing a seasonal SFO-MUC (Munich) flight for the first time. Our joint venture (JV) partnerships are important to United's success, and we need to work cooperatively with our partners to make all of us more competitive. Through these government-approved partnerships, we jointly coordinate our schedules, sales, marketing and customer service to offer our customers many more travel options than we would otherwise be able to provide by ourselves. By cooperating closely and sharing the economic benefits in these relationships, we provide much better access for all customers to the broader networks of both United and those of our important partners. I haven't been shy about telling you and our JV partners, however, that the relationships need to be balanced - both financially and in terms of the amount of flying each airline does. Historically, United has been shrinking while our JV partners have been growing. The addition of this SFO-MUC flight is a down payment on restoring the equity in flying JV routes we all want and deserve.
We have a lot of work ahead to transform our network into the best in the world, but this summer is a great start. In the meantime, as I travel around the system - and I am doing a lot of that - I have never seen a team of aviation professionals working harder, smarter and more collaboratively than all of you to make United the worlds best airline for you, our customers and everyone we serve.
Let's go!
Scott
p.s. I'm sorry for the really long note, but I'm just so excited about the future here at United that I couldn't help myself.

Woah, this ole boy is petty good. Sounds like he's gonna have United mainline excited they lost flying to an RJ operator. Way to pump up a story about we're bringing in more contractors.
Congrats to AWAC pilots though!

sweetholyjesus
02-27-2017, 07:21 AM
Please stop quoting the entire damned email!

:)

msprj2
02-27-2017, 07:26 AM
So is this the same number of AC that AW currently fly or is there some
growth involved?

GrassLandings
02-27-2017, 07:28 AM
So is AWAC gonna have an ORD base then?
How does the CPP work?

Arliss
02-27-2017, 07:33 AM
"Since our regional partners are flying with the United brand painted on the airplane, we have to hold them to the same high standards of reliability and customer service that we hold ourselves to at the mainline. Our current regional partners provide great, seamless service and reliability in feeding today's network."

This is BS right here that makes me angry as a Xjet pilot. Both Xjet and RAH have whole pairings built just to cover what Commutair can't because they're such a disaster. Yet they grow and we shrink. UA only cares about cheap.

But AWAC is a good airline, so good for them. You're right, at least it's not Mesa.

sweetholyjesus
02-27-2017, 07:50 AM
If UAL only cares about cheap, why sign with a senior carrier like AW?

saxman66
02-27-2017, 07:50 AM
Where are these -200's coming from? Is AWAC keeping its current AA flying? From Expressjet, Skywest? Back from the desert? Kinda shows that -200 flying isn't going away. But congrats to the AWAC guys. Glad you can get back near your namesake state.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WhiskeyDelta
02-27-2017, 07:51 AM
Where are these -200's coming from? Is AWAC keeping its current AA flying? From Expressjet, Skywest? Back from the desert? Kinda shows that -200 flying isn't going away. But congrats to the AWAC guys. Glad you can get back near your namesake state.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AA flying will be over. 65 is the current fleet count for them so it's just a transfer of flying from AA to United.

airlinegypsy
02-27-2017, 07:51 AM
Great news for AWAC! Now that's even more NH slots at UAL that are spoken for, making it tougher for someone to get hired off the street.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Boeing Aviator
02-27-2017, 08:04 AM
Woah, this ole boy is petty good. Sounds like he's gonna have United mainline excited they lost flying to an RJ operator. Way to pump up a story about we're bringing in more contractors.
Congrats to AWAC pilots though!

Actually Kirby is very good. After the merger it was common knowledge at management teams at DAL, AA and others that a combined UAL - CAL had the best hubs and mainline network hands down. But as long as Smisek and his misfits were running the show nothing to worry about. They always said however if UAL ever got solid management they were a massive force to be reckoned with.

Well with Oscar Munoz, Scott Kirby we finally have great management. Others always bring up Kirby and RJ's. Well that's why you have a contact and scope section for and UAL's scope is the best in the industry. Yes we can always improve & tweak and I'm sure Kirby will be difficult to negotiate against.

That being said the UAL MEC was blown away by Kirby's briefing to them at the last MEC meeting and from what I am told that was unanimous from the entire MEC. Given any MEC especially ours that's no small accomplishment. Kirby wants to be number one and is very aggressive, Smisek wanted to be number three to cut expense and run a $hitty airline.

I'll take Kirby any day. Now that the big three all have very competent managements, mergers caused profitable entities & pattern bargaining has raised the bar that's great news for all pilots in the industry!

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 08:12 AM
If UAL only cares about cheap, why sign with a senior carrier like AW?

Because cheap is relative, Compass was paid handsomely for biddding on 20 E-jets for AA, and they have a junior pilot group. AWAC has their backs against the wall, so they could have been willing to negotiate.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 08:15 AM
Actually Kirby is very good. After the merger it was common knowledge at management teams at DAL, AA and others that a combined UAL - CAL had the best hubs and mainline network hands down. But as long as Smisek and his misfits were running the show nothing to worry about. They always said however if UAL ever got solid management they were a massive force to be reckoned with.

Well with Oscar Munoz, Scott Kirby we finally have great management. Others always bring up Kirby and RJ's. Well that's why you have a contact and scope section for and UAL's scope is the best in the industry. Yes we can always improve & tweak and I'm sure Kirby will be difficult to negotiate against.


That being said the UAL MEC was blown away by Kirby's briefing to them at the last MEC meeting and from what I am told that was unanimous from the entire MEC. Given any MEC especially ours that's no small accomplishment. Kirby wants to be number one and is very aggressive, Smisek wanted to be number three to cut expense and run a $hitty airline.

I'll take Kirby any day. Now that the big three all have very competent managements, mergers caused profitable entities & pattern bargaining has raised the bar that's great news for all pilots in the industry!

DON'T BE FOOLED! Kirby is a Navy guy who didn't fly... He DOES NOT like pilots, period. He loves outsourcing and cheap labor. Why do you think USAirways has so many regional carriers? He's not a dumb guy but he does not care about pilots just $$$.

No Lies
02-27-2017, 08:19 AM
This is BS right here that makes me angry as a Xjet pilot. Both Xjet and RAH have whole pairings built just to cover what Commutair can't because they're such a disaster. Yet they grow and we shrink. UA only cares about cheap.

The only reason XJT continues to shrink is due to the fact that Skywest will not let XJT into the contract negotiations. Skywest has the plan to shut down XJT and that is happening. You need to look at Skywest, not UA for the problems at XJT.

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 08:20 AM
Actually Kirby is very good. After the merger it was common knowledge at management teams at DAL, AA and others that a combined UAL - CAL had the best hubs and mainline network hands down. But as long as Smisek and his misfits were running the show nothing to worry about. They always said however if UAL ever got solid management they were a massive force to be reckoned with.

Well with Oscar Munoz, Scott Kirby we finally have great management. Others always bring up Kirby and RJ's. Well that's why you have a contact and scope section for and UAL's scope is the best in the industry. Yes we can always improve & tweak and I'm sure Kirby will be difficult to negotiate against.

That being said the UAL MEC was blown away by Kirby's briefing to them at the last MEC meeting and from what I am told that was unanimous from the entire MEC. Given any MEC especially ours that's no small accomplishment. Kirby wants to be number one and is very aggressive, Smisek wanted to be number three to cut expense and run a $hitty airline.

I'll take Kirby any day. Now that the big three all have very competent managements, mergers caused profitable entities & pattern bargaining has raised the bar that's great news for all pilots in the industry!

I was being facetious, Kirby is good for United. Getting paid well at a healthy company is always better than than an unhealthy one. Goes to show you the blessing of Oscar's two year extension to your contract. Last thing you would want right now is for Kirby to come onboard mid negotiations.

threeighteen
02-27-2017, 08:21 AM
Great news for AWAC! Now that's even more NH slots at UAL that are spoken for, making it tougher for someone to get hired off the street.


Don't you work for an airline that has flow (envoy)?

Is it not hypocritical to be complaining about another airline setting up a CPP that doesn't actually even set aside guaranteed spots for the people it is being offered to?

MasterOfPuppets
02-27-2017, 08:22 AM
DON'T BE FOOLED! Kirby is a Navy guy who didn't fly... He DOES NOT like pilots, period. He loves outsourcing and cheap labor. Why do you think USAirways has so many regional carriers? He's not a dumb guy but he does not care about pilots just $$$.

I couldn't care less if Kirby likes pilots or not. As long as he likes the airline the rest will fall into place.

An airline is more than its pilots.

Boeing Aviator
02-27-2017, 08:22 AM
DON'T BE FOOLED! Kirby is a Navy guy who didn't fly... He DOES NOT like pilots, period. He loves outsourcing and cheap labor. Why do you think USAirways has so many regional carriers? He's not a dumb guy but he does not care about pilots just $$$.

What kind of contract did USAirways have post bankruptcy? Wasn't It the bottom hands down worst industry wide, even compared to all other post bankruptcy contracts?

United and CAL (except Bethune & to a lesser extent Kellner) have had decades worth of terrible management. I'll take competent management anyday. Yes, ALPA has its work cut out negotiating against Kirby. Still I'll take that in a NY second vs. the sorry incompetent management's we've had in our history.

Boeing Aviator
02-27-2017, 08:24 AM
I couldn't care less if Kirby likes pilots or not. As long as he likes the airline the rest will fall into place.

An airline is more than its pilots.

Amen brother!

Boeing Aviator
02-27-2017, 08:27 AM
I was being facetious, Kirby is good for United. Getting paid well at a healthy company is always better than than an unhealthy one. Goes to show you the blessing of Oscar's two year extension to your contract. Last thing you would want right now is for Kirby to come onboard mid negotiations.

No worries, I agree!

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 08:28 AM
DON'T BE FOOLED! Kirby is a Navy guy who didn't fly... He DOES NOT like pilots, period. He loves outsourcing and cheap labor. Why do you think USAirways has so many regional carriers? He's not a dumb guy but he does not care about pilots just $$$.

Are you crazy? Scot and Doug saved 5,000 pilot jobs from liquidation. Those boys are making 300k going into retirement now. They got hosed by an arbitrator nothing else. Scot and Doug built AW, saved US Air, and substantially improved AA from the direction it was heading.

Arliss
02-27-2017, 08:44 AM
The only reason XJT continues to shrink is due to the fact that Skywest will not let XJT into the contract negotiations. Skywest has the plan to shut down XJT and that is happening. You need to look at Skywest, not UA for the problems at XJT.

Don't disagree, not sure who to blame more.

AboveMins
02-27-2017, 08:55 AM
"Since our regional partners are flying with the United brand painted on the airplane, we have to hold them to the same high standards of reliability and customer service that we hold ourselves to at the mainline. Our current regional partners provide great, seamless service and reliability in feeding today's network."

This is BS right here that makes me angry as a Xjet pilot. Both Xjet and RAH have whole pairings built just to cover what Commutair can't because they're such a disaster. Yet they grow and we shrink. UA only cares about cheap.

But AWAC is a good airline, so good for them. You're right, at least it's not Mesa.

Yeah, I agree- the first part of your post sounds like something I'd expect to hear on April Fool's. Apparently, he hasn't met some of the Mesa new hires. Aside from that, there's no need to get angry, just keep working to better your resume, and jump off this sinking ship as soon as possible. It's all we can do, since it's painfully evident that the puppets in Atlanta have zero intention of keeping us open. Give it a day or two, and the merry band of mental midgets from Hartsfield Center Parkway will roll out even more smoke and mirrors in an attempt to keep us from seeing the truth. So, I guess we're going to be scuttling the ORD base later this year?

... Also, congrats to the AWAC folks, it's about time you recieved some good news over there.

Arliss
02-27-2017, 09:09 AM
ORD is probably done for Xjet. The word I heard is that any base closure would be contingent upon whether AWAC got the rumored United deal, which has come true, and that it would be ORD, not EWR as some speculated.

trip
02-27-2017, 09:16 AM
An airline is more than its pilots.

And a car without an "engine" is just a bunch of parts.

sweetholyjesus
02-27-2017, 09:18 AM
And a car without an "engine" is just a bunch of parts.An engine without a car is a generator.

amcnd
02-27-2017, 09:39 AM
The only reason XJT continues to shrink is due to the fact that Skywest will not let XJT into the contract negotiations. Skywest has the plan to shut down XJT and that is happening. You need to look at Skywest, not UA for the problems at XJT.

I agree. This Wisconsin announcement is a BIG sign that L-XJT will keep shrinking..

Flying101
02-27-2017, 09:56 AM
Are you crazy? Scot and Doug saved 5,000 pilot jobs from liquidation. Those boys are making 300k going into retirement now. They got hosed by an arbitrator nothing else. Scot and Doug built AW, saved US Air, and substantially improved AA from the direction it was heading.

Who saved 5,000 pilots? Parker and Kirby? I'm assuming you're talking about USAirways and American West merger? If so you might want to read up on Bruce Lakefield and the merger (reverse takeover). I do agree with the "hosed by an arbitrator" part.

sidestep
02-27-2017, 10:10 AM
Happy for the AWAC pilots. Great group.

gojo
02-27-2017, 10:28 AM
Happy for the AWAC pilots. Great group.

Problem today is that what's good for one group is usually bad for another. I wouldn't say AW is better than anyone else. We all have the same desires when it comes to job stability and progression

avi8tor614
02-27-2017, 10:33 AM
Congrats. Glad it was them and not mesa.

What's that suppose to mean. I never spit on another bother's airline. I'm at mesa we have issues at our respective regionals. But so do you and anyone at ANY airline.

MKUltra
02-27-2017, 10:35 AM
Good for everyone! United just poached a whole pilot group from American.. the competition for pilots is going to heat up.. more money for all of us!

airlinegypsy
02-27-2017, 10:40 AM
Don't you work for an airline that has flow (envoy)?



Is it not hypocritical to be complaining about another airline setting up a CPP that doesn't actually even set aside guaranteed spots for the people it is being offered to?



Not what I was getting at at all. Just saying that those who aren't at a regional with a flow/hiring agreement are going to be left holding the bag when all of the new hire slots are spoken for.

Furthermore, this just puts more pressure on regionals like Mesa and Republic to give their pilots a more viable path to the majors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MKUltra
02-27-2017, 10:43 AM
Not what I was getting at at all. Just saying that those who aren't at a regional with a flow/hiring agreement are going tombe left holding the bag when all of the new hire slots are spoken for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aal is going to have more jobs available than the flow can provide.. scratch that.. they will have more jobs than all of the WOs have together...

Follow, no flow, your going to be just fine!

John Carr
02-27-2017, 10:51 AM
It's an interview. Expressjet, commutair all have it.

NOPE, NOT an interview. Simply a preferential selection process. Unlike the SSP with DAL. Which is an interview without the day 2 stuff. See below.

Can anyone care to explain how it works? Is it just a straight interview? What's the pass rate?

Nope, just means you'll get the hogan. Pass the Hogan, get an interview. It gets better, see below....

First you have to pass the Hogan, which is around 80%. Then you have the interview, and this all comes in seniority order. So it may take a while to get to a class date based on this. Overall, I think there was around a 60ish percent pass rate, but you get two shots at the CPP. You also have two shots at getting hired outside of the CPP.

Latest number from XJT's MEC was slightly above 50%.

And that's UP from what the June-August rate was. And there was a TON of good guys that interviewed in that time frame that weren't "accepted". NOT just the old senior guys with an entitled mentality, hadn't interviewed in 20+ years and didn't prep, what have you.

KCaviator
02-27-2017, 11:00 AM
What's that suppose to mean. I never spit on another bother's airline. I'm at mesa we have issues at our respective regionals. But so do you and anyone at ANY airline.

Probably the fact that you're working for dirt cheap and undercutting everyone else while doing so. Not the progression that the industry needs.

LongTimeListenr
02-27-2017, 11:01 AM
What's that suppose to mean. I never spit on another bother's airline. I'm at mesa we have issues at our respective regionals. But so do you and anyone at ANY airline.

Exactly what everyone knows it means.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 11:06 AM
Probably the fact that you're working for dirt cheap and undercutting everyone else while doing so. Not the progression that the industry needs.

Based on your profile (170 FO) it's safe to say you were in High School or maybe even middle school when the whole Mesa sh*t took place. I'm curious, who do you work for? Please tell me its not Republic.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 11:15 AM
Good for everyone! United just poached a whole pilot group from American.. the competition for pilots is going to heat up.. more money for all of us!

Competition for pilots? AA is 75% flow, >20% military, and <5% street hire. I'm pretty sure AA will not have a problem filling classes. Over the last 4 years AA had what, three or four AWAC pilots get hire? Yea def some poaching!

No Lies
02-27-2017, 11:43 AM
ORD is probably done for Xjet. The word I heard is that any base closure would be contingent upon whether AWAC got the rumored United deal, which has come true, and that it would be ORD, not EWR as some speculated.

EWR and ORD are done for XJT.

ORD will go to AWAC and EWR is going to CommutAir.

The XJT closures will be followed by IAH and CLE after ewr and ord.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 11:51 AM
EWR and ORD are done for XJT.

ORD will go to AWAC and EWR is going to CommutAir.

The XJT closures will be followed by IAH and CLE after ewr and ord.

Commuting to ORD will be a lot of fun.

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 11:59 AM
Amen brother!

What do you reckon is the DOH for pilots who were making more preBK than right now?

ClickClickBoom
02-27-2017, 12:14 PM
The only reason XJT continues to shrink is due to the fact that Skywest will not let XJT into the contract negotiations. Skywest has the plan to shut down XJT and that is happening. You need to look at Skywest, not UA for the problems at XJT.

I am anything but a company apologist, but, if you think that there is anybody other than UAL pulling on the puppet strings for "inc" you are delusional. I haven't seen the FY16 UAL numbers breakdown for hiring, but FY15 XJT guys had a very substantial new hire presence, good for them!
These deals were hammered out on golf courses all over the world and cemented in the finest strip clubs that shareholder money could provide. They are the land owners and we are the serfs.

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 12:31 PM
I think it was clearly not about pilot wages but airframes. AWAC owns half of their feet which have already been depreciated down to scrap value not on a contract, and the leases are up on the other half at the end of 17, offering opportunity to lower the lease rates. Part of XJT's money losing CPA with United is they don't have a good deal leasing the jets they're using.

WesternSkies
02-27-2017, 01:05 PM
That man knows how to write like a master of puppets.

No Lies
02-27-2017, 01:08 PM
Part of XJT's money losing CPA with United is they don't have a good deal leasing the jets they're using.
That CPA was negotiated by Skywest INC.

whoareyou311
02-27-2017, 01:09 PM
up to 65 AC..its going to be 50 at most bros

Happyflyer
02-27-2017, 01:17 PM
That CPA was negotiated by Skywest INC.

Well, looks like the end for them. Guess the most SKW will get out of that purchase is preventing another company from buying them filing BK and gutting the contract to make that abismal CPA profitable, putting down ward pressure on all RJ operators including their other operations. Guess if their other airline wasn't so profitable they could try a RAH and file BK to renegotiate the CPA and leases.

WesternSkies
02-27-2017, 01:24 PM
Is TSA at risk here with IAD?

No Lies
02-27-2017, 01:38 PM
Is TSA at risk here with IAD?

Yes. CommutAir is ramping up the ERJ's out of the IAD and now EWR bases

Milksheikh
02-27-2017, 01:48 PM
It's an interview. Expressjet, commutair all have it.

Don't forget about the ATCA! Their 1500 hr instructors should be joining newhire classes at United any day now if they haven't already! :rolleyes:

hslightnin
02-27-2017, 01:58 PM
Is TSA at risk here with IAD?

Either tsa or commutair.
This also probably just killed the 20 options at commutair.

Geardownflaps30
02-27-2017, 02:14 PM
Please stop quoting the entire damned email!

:)

Agreed. That's "wicked retarded" and unnecessary!

Arliss
02-27-2017, 02:58 PM
Latest propaganda from Xjet:

-The Awac deal doesn't affect our relationship with United (and he's right, they still intend to shrink us to shutdown. Nothing has changed in that respect).

-This now opens up new opportunities for American flying (yes, for the AAG WOs, not us).

It was a nice try, A for effort.

Future Cpt Kirk
02-27-2017, 04:15 PM
Congrats to AWAC. This is great news for you guys.

So now there will be four UAL Express carriers based at IAD... TSA, C5, Mesa, and now AWAC. How does that work? I can't imagine UAL will keep four based there.

AboveMins
02-27-2017, 04:25 PM
It was a nice try, A for effort.

Meh, I give them a D-. No one is buying their bull anymore.

el jefe
02-27-2017, 04:45 PM
I'm happy my company is not going out of business next year, but it sucks if our new flying is being taken away from another airline, especially XJT.

threeighteen
02-27-2017, 05:01 PM
Not what I was getting at at all. Just saying that those who aren't at a regional with a flow/hiring agreement are going to be left holding the bag when all of the new hire slots are spoken for.

Furthermore, this just puts more pressure on regionals like Mesa and Republic to give their pilots a more viable path to the majors.


https://media.tenor.co/images/2672a2395ef37486b779fa43cd10b16b/tenor.gif

You do know what flow and hiring agreements are for right?

The purpose of a flow/hiring agreement is not to staff the mainline, it's to keep the regional feed staffed.

The CPP that United offers is a trap to get people to go fly for their regional carriers so that they don't have to pay mainline wages to mainline pilots to fly the same routes.

The flow that American is offering to the WO carriers it has is exactly the same thing, just with stonger language.

The big three: United, Delta, American, will not have a problem filling classes for a long time, even if they have to start hiring at 1500hrs (not likely). But they are having issues getting their regional carriers to fill classes, and that problem is going to get worse. Hence the career path programs.

Personally, I think that those who are at a regional that does not offer a CPP/Flow/trap/retention-program are in a good spot right now, and it will likely get better and better for them. The only way it could be unfavorable to be at a regional that doesn't have CPP or Flow is if United decides to hire 75% of PDT's pilot group this year, 75% of PSA's pilot group next year, 40% of Envoy's pilot group the next year, and so on. But such an act wouldn't happen because then American would start siphoning away pilots from AWAC and SkyWest and an all-out war would begin between them.

Instead, a wise CFI with 1499.99 hours would expect there to be no-hire gentleman's agreements between the Legacy airlines in which they agree not to poach pilots from each other's feed, and he would therefore avoid any such airline that offers a CPP or flow type agreement.

Flying101
02-27-2017, 06:04 PM
https://media.tenor.co/images/2672a2395ef37486b779fa43cd10b16b/tenor.gif

You do know what flow and hiring agreements are for right?

The purpose of a flow/hiring agreement is not to staff the mainline, it's to keep the regional feed staffed.

The CPP that United offers is a trap to get people to go fly for their regional carriers so that they don't have to pay mainline wages to mainline pilots to fly the same routes.

The flow that American is offering to the WO carriers it has is exactly the same thing, just with stonger language.

The big three: United, Delta, American, will not have a problem filling classes for a long time, even if they have to start hiring at 1500hrs (not likely). But they are having issues getting their regional carriers to fill classes, and that problem is going to get worse. Hence the career path programs.

Personally, I think that those who are at a regional that does not offer a CPP/Flow/trap/retention-program are in a good spot right now, and it will likely get better and better for them. The only way it could be unfavorable to be at a regional that doesn't have CPP or Flow is if United decides to hire 75% of PDT's pilot group this year, 75% of PSA's pilot group next year, 40% of Envoy's pilot group the next year, and so on. But such an act wouldn't happen because then American would start siphoning away pilots from AWAC and SkyWest and an all-out war would begin between them.

Instead, a wise CFI with 1499.99 hours would expect there to be no-hire gentleman's agreements between the Legacy airlines in which they agree not to poach pilots from each other's feed, and he would therefore avoid any such airline that offers a CPP or flow type agreement.

BINGO! Well said man!!

msprj2
02-27-2017, 06:51 PM
https://media.tenor.co/images/2672a2395ef37486b779fa43cd10b16b/tenor.gif

You do know what flow and hiring agreements are for right?

The purpose of a flow/hiring agreement is not to staff the mainline, it's to keep the regional feed staffed.

The CPP that United offers is a trap to get people to go fly for their regional carriers so that they don't have to pay mainline wages to mainline pilots to fly the same routes.

The flow that American is offering to the WO carriers it has is exactly the same thing, just with stonger language.

The big three: United, Delta, American, will not have a problem filling classes for a long time, even if they have to start hiring at 1500hrs (not likely). But they are having issues getting their regional carriers to fill classes, and that problem is going to get worse. Hence the career path programs.

Personally, I think that those who are at a regional that does not offer a CPP/Flow/trap/retention-program are in a good spot right now, and it will likely get better and better for them. The only way it could be unfavorable to be at a regional that doesn't have CPP or Flow is if United decides to hire 75% of PDT's pilot group this year, 75% of PSA's pilot group next year, 40% of Envoy's pilot group the next year, and so on. But such an act wouldn't happen because then American would start siphoning away pilots from AWAC and SkyWest and an all-out war would begin between them.

Instead, a wise CFI with 1499.99 hours would expect there to be no-hire gentleman's agreements between the Legacy airlines in which they agree not to poach pilots from each other's feed, and he would therefore avoid any such airline that offers a CPP or flow type agreement.

WRONG
Previous poster was right.

sidestep
02-27-2017, 07:14 PM
Problem today is that what's good for one group is usually bad for another. I wouldn't say AW is better than anyone else. We all have the same desires when it comes to job stability and progression

I agree. Please don't take my compliment as an insult to any other group. I'm simply saying I've met & known many AW guys and always found them to be tremendously friendly & professional. Happy to see some good news come their way after a long stressful year.

CBreezy
02-27-2017, 07:17 PM
WRONG
Previous poster was right.

You're wrong.

flysooner9
02-27-2017, 07:24 PM
I'm happy my company is not going out of business next year, but it sucks if our new flying is being taken away from another airline, especially XJT.

Well its not like yall took concessions to gain the flying. Nothing to be ashamed of, thats just the regional business.

SpeedyVagabond
02-27-2017, 07:47 PM
Great news! I'm happy for you folks. I spent many years here at RA getting dh'ed to and from assignments in the back of your jets and you've always treated me very well.

airlinegypsy
02-27-2017, 09:20 PM
WRONG

Previous poster was right.



Thank you. Obviously the big 3 will not have any problem filling classes, but how many spots will be reserved for pilots from Mesa and the like? At least at American somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-75% of new hire slots are already spoken for. The rest goes to military and a handful of lucky pilots from across the industry.
AA, UAL and DAL have people lined up for miles to fly for them, but the shortage at their regionals is already here, hence the bonuses and hiring agreements. It will get worse, and when it does it's a logical step to make service at a regional of their choosing mandatory prior to sitting in the right seat of the mainline. Will it be 100%? Probably not, but pretty close to it in the future is my guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IFLYACRJ
02-28-2017, 03:33 AM
And a car without an "engine" is just a bunch of parts.



Actually a car without an engine is a good restoration project for me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Andytcsi
02-28-2017, 03:57 AM
you are wrong for saying I'm wrong when I tell someone else that they are wrong for something everyone doesn't get....

My crystal ball is better than yours because I bought mine at Spencer gifts and not only is it a crystal ball, if you plug it in it glows plasma arcs to the glass and will follow your touch... That makes me the king of all future knowledge and understanding!!!

LoitaHills
02-28-2017, 06:15 AM
Great news for AWAC. Glad to see this legacy regional pilot group with a new CPA.

The only thing in this news that raised my eyebrows was the continuation of operating the -200, an airframe that has been around since 1995. I was hoping to see the news mentioning a newer fleet of -700s or -900s, especially into 2023. Maybe that is in the fine print somewhere.

Again, nice to see this for the AWAC pilots and FAs.

LH

zondaracer
02-28-2017, 06:30 AM
Great news for AWAC. Glad to see this legacy regional pilot group with a new CPA.

The only thing in this news that raised my eyebrows was the continuation of operating the -200, an airframe that has been around since 1995. I was hoping to see the news mentioning a newer fleet of -700s or -900s, especially into 2023. Maybe that is in the fine print somewhere.

Again, nice to see this for the AWAC pilots and FAs.

LH
United is scoped out on 70/76 seaters. Someone would have to give lose planes for that to happen.

DL31082
02-28-2017, 06:37 AM
I'm not going to state that the XJT ERJs aren't going away, but you have to remember that United can fly as many 50 seaters as they want. Right now they are scoped out on 70/76 seaters. The only way to increase regional feed is to add 50 seaters or increase the NB mainline fleet.

msprj2
02-28-2017, 06:49 AM
you are wrong for saying I'm wrong when I tell someone else that they are wrong for something everyone doesn't get....

My crystal ball is better than yours because I bought mine at Spencer gifts and not only is it a crystal ball, if you plug it in it glows plasma arcs to the glass and will follow your touch... That makes me the king of all future knowledge and understanding!!!

Your argument states its better its better to not be wholly owned, not have
a flow or guaranteed interview and thus also lower paid. Let me guess who you work for a non
wholly owned. There may be some that it wont matter who they work for ie Military but for most there is no comparison. Your argument isn't based
on actual facts only speculation.

CBreezy
02-28-2017, 07:14 AM
Your argument states its better its better to not be wholly owned, not have
a flow or guaranteed interview and thus also lower paid. Let me guess who you work for a non
wholly owned. There may be some that it wont matter who they work for ie Military but for most there is no comparison. Your argument isn't based
on actual facts only speculation.

I'm not even sure what your argument is because your post is just rambling.

Going to a WO is a good idea for some people but it is surely not the only way to get to a major airline. There are plenty of people outside of flow or interview programs getting hired at major airlines, some with under 3 years and not military or special interest demographics. Yes, for some, going to a place like PDT that has a flow is a good deal. To say that all future hiring will be from a flow or CPP property is misleading and an outright falsehood.

Flying101
02-28-2017, 08:20 AM
I'm not even sure what your argument is because your post is just rambling.

Going to a WO is a good idea for some people but it is surely not the only way to get to a major airline. There are plenty of people outside of flow or interview programs getting hired at major airlines, some with under 3 years and not military or special interest demographics. Yes, for some, going to a place like PDT that has a flow is a good deal. To say that all future hiring will be from a flow or CPP property is misleading and an outright falsehood.

I don't think flow or CPP or whatever will make it impossible to get the majors BUT it will definitely make it a lot more challenging. Look at AA new hire classes, less than 5% are street-hire civilians. Any program with any kind of preferential hiring or flow will have an impact on street hire. Flow is an excellent option for pilot without degrees and shady past (violations, traffic tickets, maybe an arrest).

CBreezy
02-28-2017, 08:23 AM
I don't think flow or CPP or whatever will make it impossible to get the majors BUT it will definitely make it a lot more challenging. Look at AA new hire classes, less than 5% are street-hire civilians. Any program with any kind of preferential hiring or flow will have an impact on street hire. Flow is an excellent option for pilot without degrees and shady past (violations, traffic tickets, maybe an arrest).

Yes, but that's the only airline with that kind of ratio. Both Delta and United are largely off the street. I've talked to plenty of people at both airlines from a guaranteed flow AA program and from non-flow programs. Yes, getting hired at AA will be difficult for OTS. But I don't see the other two following in their footsteps. United's CPP has almost no teeth and Delta is trying to phase out a lot of regional flying.

Flying101
02-28-2017, 08:26 AM
Yes, but that's the only airline with that kind of ratio. Both Delta and United are largely off the street. I've talked to plenty of people at both airlines from a guaranteed flow AA program and from non-flow programs. Yes, getting hired at AA will be difficult for OTS. But I don't see the other two following in their footsteps. United's CPP has almost no teeth and Delta is trying to phase out a lot of regional flying.

It's not the case at UA now but as UA brings more and more programs such as CPP it will lower the odds of a street-hire.

Andytcsi
02-28-2017, 08:42 AM
Your argument states its better its better to not be wholly owned, not have
a flow or guaranteed interview and thus also lower paid. Let me guess who you work for a non
wholly owned. There may be some that it wont matter who they work for ie Military but for most there is no comparison. Your argument isn't based
on actual facts only speculation.

What argument am I making? look back, that was my first post on this topic and I'm not even saying what is right and what is wrong just the conviction on this board that they have to prove the other guy is wrong! What is comical is the dick measuring contest between people on these boards trying to say their decision was the best and everyone will see in 5 years that not only will they see that their own decision was bad but the person that "told you so" was right and damn we should've listened...

I love the way people argue now... I'm going to make a preconceived notion on the other guy so that I can hammer that made up ideal of my antagonist.

BTW, relax... this is not pointed at you specifically but more the general state of this board and our nation in general sadly.

sflpilot
02-28-2017, 09:16 AM
It's not the case at UA now but as UA brings more and more programs such as CPP it will lower the odds of a street-hire.

Yes street hire will likely continue to be increasingly less likely going forward. I know the flight schools are hyping the shortage like crazy, but for many reasons it won't happen at the legacies. They are getting apps from so many different facets of aviation not just regionals and LCC. The people at the non flow/cpp/dgi companies are telling themselves they all will easily walk in to mainline. Very small chance of that being the case.

ItnStln
02-28-2017, 09:25 AM
Will AWAC still fly for American Eagle, or is this in addition to American Eagle?

Flying101
02-28-2017, 09:33 AM
Yes street hire will likely continue to be increasingly less likely going forward. I know the flight schools are hyping the shortage like crazy, but for many reasons it won't happen at the legacies. They are getting apps from so many different facets of aviation not just regionals and LCC. The people at the non flow/cpp/dgi companies are telling themselves they all will easily walk in to mainline. Very small chance of that being the case.

You're right. I'm happy for AWAC and their pilot group. I was fortunate to call AWAC my home for nearly 9 years. Good bunch!

Flying101
02-28-2017, 09:35 AM
Will AWAC still fly for American Eagle, or is this in addition to American Eagle?

I'm not 100 % sure but from what I've read it seems AWAC will shift 65 a/c from AA to UA.

CBreezy
02-28-2017, 09:42 AM
It's not the case at UA now but as UA brings more and more programs such as CPP it will lower the odds of a street-hire.

If everyone offers some kind of preferential interview, doesn't that mean no one has a preferential interview? Even if we don't believe that, United has so many regional partners that there really isn't any exclusivity. I don't see Delta or AA expanding their programs to non-WO. That leaves plenty of seats at Delta and plenty of seats at United available to off the street hires. LIke I said, the CPP has almost no teeth.

ItnStln
02-28-2017, 09:55 AM
I'm not 100 % sure but from what I've read it seems AWAC will shift 65 a/c from AA to UA.
That's what I thought, but AWAC only has 66 a/c per Wikipedia.

Flying101
02-28-2017, 09:58 AM
That's what I thought, but AWAC only has 66 a/c per Wikipedia.

My guess is they are parking one more which will get them down to 65 and sometime in 2018 will repaint and start UA flying.

John Carr
02-28-2017, 10:00 AM
That leaves plenty of seats at Delta and plenty of seats at United available to off the street hires. LIke I said, the CPP has almost no teeth.

That's a good way to put it.

Sorry, my knowledge is limited to XJT's CPP, but the thinking when it came out was that United's "hiring" of XJT pilots would simply shift where they came from seniority wise. As in, at one time, XJT pilots were the largest group hired of regional background, with SKW being second. UAL would still take XJT pilots at roughly the same historical percentage, just that most would interview via CPP ang go to class in seniority order. Although an OTS is still an option.

But that's not the way it's working out with the high shoot down rate. I've only heard of a few that interviewed via CPP that would have waited months, if not a year to go over on the CPP. Only to get an OTS HPI/interview and circumvent the CPP. And guess what? I've heard of 2 now that we're "accepted" into the CPP and waiting to go, THEN got an OTS intverview, and WERENT HIRED.

Point I'm getting at/short story long, the XJT CPP ISNT at all a hindrance/barrier/block to OTS hiring. Unlike AAG's WO who are contractual t make up a healthy amount of newhire slots.

RabidW0mbat
02-28-2017, 10:33 AM
That's what I thought, but AWAC only has 66 a/c per Wikipedia.

ZW's contract with AAG expires Feb. 2018. After that ZW was effectively done...left alone on the dance floor with nobody to dance with. This agreement moves ZW's entire fleet (well, 50 with options for 15...so you can do the math there. I'd imagine the extra one will be parked or used for spares.) to UAL beginning "Early 2018." See how this is matching up here?

ItnStln
02-28-2017, 10:37 AM
ZW's contract with AAG expires Feb. 2018. After that ZW was effectively done...left alone on the dance floor with nobody to dance with. This agreement moves ZW's entire fleet (well, 50 with options for 15...so you can do the math there. I'd imagine the extra one will be parked or used for spares.) to UAL beginning "Early 2018." See how this is matching up here?
So ZW won't be flying for American Eagle anymore after that, only for United Express, or so it seems.

amcnd
02-28-2017, 10:50 AM
This is overall great news. But living 5 years at a time is stressful... Not to mention moving around.. I would use it as 5 years to move on. Those 200's aren't getting younger..

spaaks
02-28-2017, 12:16 PM
Congrats. Glad it was them and not mesa.

mesa got 12 more E175's for united......

spaaks
02-28-2017, 12:19 PM
If UAL only cares about cheap, why sign with a senior carrier like AW?

he did specifically mention that it was a competitive advantage to steal feed from American

Flying101
02-28-2017, 02:40 PM
he did specifically mention that it was a competitive advantage to steal feed from American

Pretty sure that's very illegal. Kirby isn't that dumb.

Flying101
02-28-2017, 03:06 PM
mesa got 12 more E175's for united......

How much do you pay Mesa to fly those shiny 175 for United? Ooooooops, I mean Mesa pays you :-)

lalo
02-28-2017, 03:16 PM
Pretty sure that's very illegal. Kirby isn't that dumb.

And...that's why your a pilot and not a businessman.

FlyingSlowly
02-28-2017, 03:39 PM
United is scoped out on 70/76 seaters. Someone would have to give lose planes for that to happen.

Actually, regarding United: If they add another narrow-body mainline, I think there's a clause that they can add more 70-seaters to the regional feed.

They haven't released their full newly revised fleet plan yet...but remember that their 737-700 order was upscaled and deferred to Max8s...

Wouldn't be surprised to see C-Series added mainline at UAL, and more 70-seaters as well.

billyho
02-28-2017, 04:07 PM
Actually, regarding United: If they add another narrow-body mainline, I think there's a clause that they can add more 70-seaters to the regional feed.

They haven't released their full newly revised fleet plan yet...but remember that their 737-700 order was upscaled and deferred to Max8s...

Wouldn't be surprised to see C-Series added mainline at UAL, and more 70-seaters as well.
United won't see a 737 Max for 3 years. American owns every delivery slot over that time.

Lambourne
02-28-2017, 04:18 PM
United - Newsroom - News Releases (http://newsroom.united.com/news-releases?item=124068)

United won't see a 737 Max for 3 years. American owns every delivery slot over that time.

Actually you appear to be wrong on you assertion. UA takes first Max in 2018. Not sure where you are getting your information but it isn't factual as of today.

UA is launch customer for Max9. Delivery in 2018

threeighteen
02-28-2017, 04:18 PM
Thank you. Obviously the big 3 will not have any problem filling classes, but how many spots will be reserved for pilots from Mesa and the like?

The same number that will be reserved for AWAC and CommutAir = ZERO.

CPP at UA doesn't reserve slots at UA. DGI at Delta doesn't reserve slots. There are no reserved slots at any place besides American.

CPP/DGI/Flow is a trap for people who can't see the writing on the wall for the next 3-5 years. American's flow isn't as bad as the other two programs since you don't have to interview again and just have to watch the clock, but it's still a foolish move to make it your primary plan.

At least at American somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-75% of new hire slots are already spoken for. The rest goes to military and a handful of lucky pilots from across the industry.

How long will they be able to pull their current military percentage before the military pilot pool is reduced down to solely the guys getting out at 10 years vs right now where there is a huge spread of guys between 10 and 20 years getting out? That high military percentage will not last too long.

AA, UAL and DAL have people lined up for miles to fly for them, but the shortage at their regionals is already here, hence the bonuses and hiring agreements. It will get worse, and when it does it's a logical step to make service at a regional of their choosing mandatory prior to sitting in the right seat of the mainline. Will it be 100%? Probably not, but pretty close to it in the future is my guess.

If they hire off the street, that's one pilot they have to find/recruit/hire.

If they hire a pilot from a regional that flies their feed, they also have to find another pilot to replace him at the regional he just left, which like you said, is hard now, and getting harder.

It's a lot easier to attract someone to work at mainline than it is to keep attracting a continuous feed of new pilots at a regional when there aren't enough to go around, which is why they hang the Flow/CPP/DGI carrot just barely out of reach of the majority of the guys at the regional and only let in a small trickle of regional guys into the mainline millionaires club each year.

What would you do if you were trying to keep your mainline airline AND your regional airline staffed? Hire one pilot or two?

It's not the case at UA now but as UA brings more and more programs such as CPP it will lower the odds of a street-hire.

How so?

Street hires and CPP guys have to survive the same interview and meet roughly the same job requirements, and as United drops their requirements, the CPP requirements will probably stay unchanged.

The turndown rates are pretty high too right now.

Flubber
02-28-2017, 04:19 PM
That's what I thought, but AWAC only has 66 a/c per Wikipedia.

One lease comes up this year. Don't know which tail.

spaaks
02-28-2017, 05:02 PM
Pretty sure that's very illegal. Kirby isn't that dumb.

If it was illegal why would he say it in writing? Pretty sure you're that dumb. Read the release and email

Day4mx
02-28-2017, 05:27 PM
United - Newsroom - News Releases (http://newsroom.united.com/news-releases?item=124068)



Actually you appear to be wrong on you assertion. UA takes first Max in 2018. Not sure where you are getting your information but it isn't factual as of today.

UA is launch customer for Max9. Delivery in 2018

Billy can't get anything right.

Bgood
02-28-2017, 05:54 PM
An engine without a car is a generator.

So in the end we need each other to create a force not to be reckoned with. :)

sweetholyjesus
02-28-2017, 08:42 PM
United won't see a 737 Max for 3 years. American owns every delivery slot over that time.

United - Newsroom - News Releases (http://newsroom.united.com/news-releases?item=124068)



Actually you appear to be wrong on you assertion. UA takes first Max in 2018. Not sure where you are getting your information but it isn't factual as of today.

UA is launch customer for Max9. Delivery in 2018http://memecrunch.com/meme/T3A9/dayum-picard/image.jpg

Papa Bear
03-01-2017, 03:59 AM
So pretty much you got 5yrs to get your ducks in a row and find another job...
What is the over under of percentage of guys five years from now will be crying foul about AirWhiskey not getting another extension. I'm saying 70% for the over.

Next thing we will see is a post from a newbie asking what kind of qualifications and work rules you have to get on...in 3 2 1...

schmohawk
03-01-2017, 04:17 AM
So pretty much you got 5yrs to get your ducks in a row and find another job...
What is the over under of percentage of guys five years from now will be crying foul about AirWhiskey not getting another extension. I'm saying 70% for the over.

Next thing we will see is a post from a newbie asking what kind of qualifications and work rules you have to get on...in 3 2 1...

It's actually 5 years with an optional 2 year extension

el jefe
03-01-2017, 05:45 AM
I'm astounded by the amount of people badmouthing this new contract we had nothing to do with as a pilot group, and that saved us from losing our jobs next year. Unless you work(ed) at ZW, you don't know how bad morale has been the past few years knowing Feb 2018 was the end. Approx >80% of this pilot group is looking to get on with a bigger airline and didn't want to have to start over at another regional next year.

Systemized
03-01-2017, 06:27 AM
In my opinion, United is one step behind American.

Don't forget, American signed a deal for roughly 40 CRJ-700s with Skywest last year. Those plane were former United Express.

United is getting roughly 50 former American CRJ-200s through Air Wisconsin. It's a trade of regional pilots and American is getting more efficient planes while United takes a step back.

The 50 seaters have the most uncertain future among RJs and American is smart by keeping most of their 50 seat frames at their own companies.

American is adding new E175s at Envoy and used 700s at Skywest while old 200s leave the American system.

United screwed up by not paying Skywest more cheese to keep flying all the Expressjet E145s and Skywest 700s and they're paying for it now. Their product is taking a hit by shifting E145s from Expressjet to TSA and Comutair.

The future of American regional flying consists of more RJs operated by wholly owns which is smart considering the shortage of qualified and willing applicants and the better incentives wholly owns can offer.

The best thing United can do for it's RJ feed is start buying up regional airlines and offering the best flow through programs and overall pay. Their interview program and deal with Wisconsin is a step in the right direction but not enough.

TimetoClimb
03-01-2017, 06:51 AM
In my opinion, United is one step behind American.

Don't forget, American signed a deal for roughly 40 CRJ-700s with Skywest last year. Those plane were former United Express.

United is getting roughly 50 former American CRJ-200s through Air Wisconsin. It's a trade of regional pilots and American is getting more efficient planes while United takes a step back.

The 50 seaters have the most uncertain future among RJs and American is smart by keeping most of their 50 seat frames at their own companies.

American is adding new E175s at Envoy and used 700s at Skywest while old 200s leave the American system.

United screwed up by not paying Skywest more cheese to keep flying all the Expressjet E145s and Skywest 700s and they're paying for it now. Their product is taking a hit by shifting E145s from Expressjet to TSA and Comutair.

The future of American regional flying consists of more RJs operated by wholly owns which is smart considering the shortage of qualified and willing applicants and the better incentives wholly owns can offer.

The best thing United can do for it's RJ feed is start buying up regional airlines and offering the best flow through programs and overall pay. Their interview program and deal with Wisconsin is a step in the right direction but not enough.

An insightful analysis, thank you

IFLYACRJ
03-01-2017, 06:54 AM
I'm astounded by the amount of people badmouthing this new contract we had nothing to do with as a pilot group, and that saved us from losing our jobs next year. Unless you work(ed) at ZW, you don't know how bad morale has been the past few years knowing Feb 2018 was the end. Approx >80% of this pilot group is looking to get on with a bigger airline and didn't want to have to start over at another regional next year.



I agree. But unfortunately this is a dog eat dog industry. I have a family to feed and was hoping we wouldn't be gone next year either.
But if we did go belly up, who would care that I'd have to find a job and probably at considerably less money to feed my family?
Nobody! It's all a me me me me and what's in it for me nowadays.
Anyway, I'm happy to know if I stay, I'll have a job for at least another 5-7 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CBreezy
03-01-2017, 06:59 AM
In my opinion, United is one step behind American.

Don't forget, American signed a deal for roughly 40 CRJ-700s with Skywest last year. Those plane were former United Express.

United is getting roughly 50 former American CRJ-200s through Air Wisconsin. It's a trade of regional pilots and American is getting more efficient planes while United takes a step back.

The 50 seaters have the most uncertain future among RJs and American is smart by keeping most of their 50 seat frames at their own companies.

American is adding new E175s at Envoy and used 700s at Skywest while old 200s leave the American system.

United screwed up by not paying Skywest more cheese to keep flying all the Expressjet E145s and Skywest 700s and they're paying for it now. Their product is taking a hit by shifting E145s from Expressjet to TSA and Comutair.

The future of American regional flying consists of more RJs operated by wholly owns which is smart considering the shortage of qualified and willing applicants and the better incentives wholly owns can offer.

The best thing United can do for it's RJ feed is start buying up regional airlines and offering the best flow through programs and overall pay. Their interview program and deal with Wisconsin is a step in the right direction but not enough.

I disagree. AA adding large RJ flying is not good for pilots. I also think in a few years, straight flow programs are going to be in trouble and may even see a push from management for metering. There just aren't enough new pilots out there to fill the seats and not everyone is interested in working for an AA WO.

I don't think adding 50 seat flying to UA is the right thing to do when your former WO is dying, but I'm glad there are pilots out there not having to find work.

Mercyful Fate
03-01-2017, 07:00 AM
In my opinion, United is one step behind American.

Don't forget, American signed a deal for roughly 40 CRJ-700s with Skywest last year. Those plane were former United Express.

United is getting roughly 50 former American CRJ-200s through Air Wisconsin. It's a trade of regional pilots and American is getting more efficient planes while United takes a step back.

The 50 seaters have the most uncertain future among RJs and American is smart by keeping most of their 50 seat frames at their own companies.

American is adding new E175s at Envoy and used 700s at Skywest while old 200s leave the American system.

United screwed up by not paying Skywest more cheese to keep flying all the Expressjet E145s and Skywest 700s and they're paying for it now. Their product is taking a hit by shifting E145s from Expressjet to TSA and Comutair.

The future of American regional flying consists of more RJs operated by wholly owns which is smart considering the shortage of qualified and willing applicants and the better incentives wholly owns can offer.

The best thing United can do for it's RJ feed is start buying up regional airlines and offering the best flow through programs and overall pay. Their interview program and deal with Wisconsin is a step in the right direction but not enough.

http://replygif.net/i/1472.gif

Mercyful Fate
03-01-2017, 07:14 AM
I'm astounded by the amount of people badmouthing this new contract we had nothing to do with as a pilot group, and that saved us from losing our jobs next year. Unless you work(ed) at ZW, you don't know how bad morale has been the past few years knowing Feb 2018 was the end. Approx >80% of this pilot group is looking to get on with a bigger airline and didn't want to have to start over at another regional next year.

Now is the time to bring them back.

http://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/BAC146-200.jpg

flyingfiddler
03-01-2017, 08:12 AM
Glad to hear you guys got some more flying. I've been kind of concerned at the rumors of AWI's impending demise. Congrats and best wishes from EDV.

highflyer1980
03-01-2017, 08:41 AM
I'm puzzled. Didn't United decrease its regional feed drastically a few years ago because it wanted to consolidate their schedules and give more flying back to mainline? What I'm thinking of is back when CLE got the axe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

FlameNSky
03-01-2017, 09:09 AM
If everyone offers some kind of preferential interview, doesn't that mean no one has a preferential interview? Even if we don't believe that, United has so many regional partners that there really isn't any exclusivity. I don't see Delta or AA expanding their programs to non-WO. That leaves plenty of seats at Delta and plenty of seats at United available to off the street hires. LIke I said, the CPP has almost no teeth.

You guys are wasting your time on CBreezy. His argument isn't to prove his point, it is to placate himself. He HAS to believe that is has an easy shot at "off the street" hiring because it is his only choice. Its like trying to reason with a fundamental religious fanatic. No amounts of facts, logic or reasoning will convince them to abandon their beliefs -- they can't come to grips with any reality but their own.

Flows are not the only path to a major. As majors find it harder and harder to staff their regionals though, they will start using flows as an incentive to regional new hires. It cost the major partner nothing but adds value to the regional. AA hires a majority of its pilots from flow, leaving few OTS hires after the military and minority hires. United is well on its way to a similar system. United continues to grow its preferred interview program. Logic would suggest their continued expansion of this kind of program, not a complete abandonment of it. Delta is current shopping to acquiring another regional to own. ( I bet they feel a little stupid for getting rid of Compass and Comair now ) You can bet that when they do acquire another regional, those pilots will have the Endeavor Style Interview or better.

Republic asked AA for flow slots but true to its style, AAG wouldn't give it up for free. Its evidently wasn't important enough to Bedford to give something ( $ ) up for it. I can only assume then, that Bedford has asked UA and DL as well. Given the fact they the still don't exist, I figure Bedford decided to keep the higher CPA rates over the added benefit to his pilots.

Actions speak louder than words. The anti-flow guys can keep beating their chests like a bunch of vagina wearing snowflakes but actions on behalf of the major airline say that the flows/interview agreements will continue to grow, not shrink, resulting in fewer and fewer OTS new hire positions in the future.

HighFlight
03-01-2017, 09:10 AM
I don't think people are bad mouthing the contract, just speculating as to they why/where/what the future holds. I'd like to think 98% are happy for you guys as a pilot group. But we as pilots cannot help but speculate on the future, since that future affects us all, even if the ripple starts at OAL.

I'm thrilled things are looking up for you guys. I don't think I know anyone at ZW personally, but I know it would suck if people lost their jobs. Uncertain times breed a LOT in internal and family stress, and it is never a good thing for anyone. But at the end of the day, we are all pawns in a game played by folks who don't really have our best interests in mind. Ever. Just remember, you might feel bad for me for a minute if you found out online that I was losing my job. Any decent human would. But as long as you still had a job, and your family was secure, you'd keep going to work and doing your thing. And you would never personally know my suffering (unless, like many, you have suffered thru a BK/furlough/closure prior).

Best of luck to all of you and your cohorts at ZW. It looks like things will take off in a good direction for you guys and gals. Also, keep in mind APC tends to tip the scales on the negative side. That's just the way an anonymous forum is. :cool:

I'm astounded by the amount of people badmouthing this new contract we had nothing to do with as a pilot group, and that saved us from losing our jobs next year. Unless you work(ed) at ZW, you don't know how bad morale has been the past few years knowing Feb 2018 was the end. Approx >80% of this pilot group is looking to get on with a bigger airline and didn't want to have to start over at another regional next year.

CBreezy
03-01-2017, 10:06 AM
You guys are wasting your time on CBreezy. His argument isn't to prove his point, it is to placate himself. He HAS to believe that is has an easy shot at "off the street" hiring because it is his only choice. Its like trying to reason with a fundamental religious fanatic. No amounts of facts, logic or reasoning will convince them to abandon their beliefs -- they can't come to grips with any reality but their own.

Flows are not the only path to a major. As majors find it harder and harder to staff their regionals though, they will start using flows as an incentive to regional new hires. It cost the major partner nothing but adds value to the regional. AA hires a majority of its pilots from flow, leaving few OTS hires after the military and minority hires. United is well on its way to a similar system. United continues to grow its preferred interview program. Logic would suggest their continued expansion of this kind of program, not a complete abandonment of it. Delta is current shopping to acquiring another regional to own. ( I bet they feel a little stupid for getting rid of Compass and Comair now ) You can bet that when they do acquire another regional, those pilots will have the Endeavor Style Interview or better.

Republic asked AA for flow slots but true to its style, AAG wouldn't give it up for free. Its evidently wasn't important enough to Bedford to give something ( $ ) up for it. I can only assume then, that Bedford has asked UA and DL as well. Given the fact they the still don't exist, I figure Bedford decided to keep the higher CPA rates over the added benefit to his pilots.

Actions speak louder than words. The anti-flow guys can keep beating their chests like a bunch of vagina wearing snowflakes but actions on behalf of the major airline say that the flows/interview agreements will continue to grow, not shrink, resulting in fewer and fewer OTS new hire positions in the future.

Don't you worry your pretty little head about me. My "vagina wearing snowflake (is that supposed to be an insult?)" chest is just fine. And many of my friends have gotten on at all three majors without a flow.

As I've said in the past, the CPP has no teeth. There isn't a contractual obligation and it's very clear neither Delta or United are interested in giving up control of pilot selection. A preferential interview is nice, but many many people are still failing it and in the end, you still go behind people in seniority order, whereas OTS goes in interview order.

Here's a little food for thought. A friend of mine I referenced earlier was in a recent Delta new hire class. Do you want to guess where almost half of that class came from? A Skywest, Inc property. Not Endeavor. Not the military. A regional without any preferential hiring incentives.

airlinegypsy
03-01-2017, 10:55 AM
Don't you worry your pretty little head about me. My "vagina wearing snowflake (is that supposed to be an insult?)" chest is just fine. And many of my friends have gotten on at all three majors without a flow.



As I've said in the past, the CPP has no teeth. There isn't a contractual obligation and it's very clear neither Delta or United are interested in giving up control of pilot selection. A preferential interview is nice, but many many people are still failing it and in the end, you still go behind people in seniority order, whereas OTS goes in interview order.



Here's a little food for thought. A friend of mine I referenced earlier was in a recent Delta new hire class. Do you want to guess where almost half of that class came from? A Skywest, Inc property. Not Endeavor. Not the military. A regional without any preferential hiring incentives.



Yes I'll admit, I do hear about some slipping through the cracks from time to time.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Papa Bear
03-01-2017, 05:34 PM
I'm astounded by the amount of people badmouthing this new contract we had nothing to do with as a pilot group, and that saved us from losing our jobs next year. Unless you work(ed) at ZW, you don't know how bad morale has been the past few years knowing Feb 2018 was the end. Approx >80% of this pilot group is looking to get on with a bigger airline and didn't want to have to start over at another regional next year.

Was not trying to be a Dk to you guys at all...I'm happy you guys have time to move on now.

All the respect for Air Whiskey guys...get on and move on!!!!

FlameNSky
03-01-2017, 05:48 PM
As I've said in the past, the CPP has no teeth. There isn't a contractual obligation and it's very clear neither Delta or United are interested in giving up control of pilot selection. A preferential interview is nice, but many many people are still failing it and in the end, you still go behind people in seniority order, whereas OTS goes in interview order.

I agree with that. UA and DA has set up their pref interview arrangements to their benefit. Its almost like they have a pilot of probation their entire time at the regional. Fail training, call in too much, they can keep you out of mainline. That is one area that make the AA Flow Program so much better. If your efforts to get an mainline job as an OTS hire fail, when your flow number comes up, you go. No HR games.

John Carr
03-02-2017, 08:37 AM
I agree with that. UA and DA has set up their pref interview arrangements to their benefit. Its almost like they have a pilot of probation their entire time at the regional. Fail training, call in too much, they can keep you out of mainline. That is one area that make the AA Flow Program so much better. If your efforts to get an mainline job as an OTS hire fail, when your flow number comes up, you go. No HR games.

Pretty much. There are XJT CPP "accepted" pilots that will probably be looking at 2 years before their "review board" comes up and they will considered to go. And assuming they haven't left yet and/or UAL hasn't modified the program, they will effectively have a THREE YEAR probation period at UAL.

Meanwhile, I saw OTS guys get hired who where chronic problem children, red on their schedule EVERY MONTH between sick calls, missed trips, etc. Never mind the ones that had disciplinary action, multiple training failures, etc.

RgrMurdock
03-02-2017, 09:59 AM
Has this changed the dynamics of your contract negotiations? Has the union said anything yet?

sweetholyjesus
03-02-2017, 10:39 AM
Has this changed the dynamics of your contract negotiations? Has the union said anything yet?The union signed away their ability to even sit at the table until this fall. They don't have any say in what happens for a long time.

I don't have much faith in them after they tried to sell their last concessionary TA. They don't even seem to know what a distressed carrier is. But I'm sure another coffee party that they decide to make you pay for will make everything at ARW great again :rolleyes:
#MARWGA

BigWillyCapt
03-02-2017, 07:54 PM
Here's all you need to know. Total mandatory retirements at DAL, UAL, AA, SWA and FedEx in the next 10 yrs = 20,988. Total regional pilots right now for the top 13 = 18,581. Unless you are a knucklehead, don't meet the requirements for some reason, or are going to retire in that timeframe you should be able to get a job at a major airline.

CBreezy
03-03-2017, 01:32 AM
You're forgetting military. That typically accounts for half the hiring although I don't think there will be 10,000 military hires. I'd say more like 5000. So, not everyone.

HighFlight
03-03-2017, 01:53 AM
Not sure what "normal" numbers are for the ex-military annually, but I predict that number is going to go up dramastically over the next 5 years. People are turning down promotions and bonuses and getting out at a much higher rate than before.

You're forgetting military. That typically accounts for half the hiring although I don't think there will be 10,000 military hires. I'd say more like 5000. So, not everyone.

Inside DEENA
03-03-2017, 03:36 AM
The union signed away their ability to even sit at the table until this fall. They don't have any say in what happens for a long time.

I don't have much faith in them after they tried to sell their last concessionary TA. They don't even seem to know what a distressed carrier is. But I'm sure another coffee party that they decide to make you pay for will make everything at ARW great again :rolleyes:
#MARWGA

Not true. The LATEST they could return was this fall. Any substantial change to our status (such as securing new flying) triggers a return to the barganing table.

Most all of us had issues with that last TA, no doubt. But at least be honest about our current status.

ID

sweetholyjesus
03-03-2017, 05:13 AM
Not true. The LATEST they could return was this fall. Any substantial change to our status (such as securing new flying) triggers a return to the barganing table.

Most all of us had issues with that last TA, no doubt. But at least be honest about our current status.

ID"WHEREAS, the parties have agreed that the next bargaining session be no later than the third Quarter of 2017 as determined by the National Mediation Board to allow the Company the opportunity to implement these provisions and focus on pilot hiring and training."

This is the only literature in the LOA that I see on the matter. If I'm being so dishonest, please post the language that supports what you're saying. I'm actually hoping that what you're saying is correct. But I don't see anything in writing that supports it.

SHJ

sflpilot
03-03-2017, 06:04 AM
Here's all you need to know. Total mandatory retirements at DAL, UAL, AA, SWA and FedEx in the next 10 yrs = 20,988. Total regional pilots right now for the top 13 = 18,581. Unless you are a knucklehead, don't meet the requirements for some reason, or are going to retire in that timeframe you should be able to get a job at a major airline.

They are sourcing applicants from many other places in addition to regionals. All of the LCCs, cargo, fractional, charter, larger 135 operators, everyone that wants to come home from Dubai, corporate/private jet operators and of course the military. Yes lots of regional people will go to legacies, but it won't be anywhere close to everyone. Also the government could pull an age 67 or 70 to shore things up a while longer.

Tester130
03-03-2017, 09:28 AM
Not sure what "normal" numbers are for the ex-military annually, but I predict that number is going to go up dramastically over the next 5 years. People are turning down promotions and bonuses and getting out at a much higher rate than before.



People are getting out, and the military is having trouble retaining folks, but there are not as many pilots as there have been in the past. That is partly why you see some regionals looking to the military helicopter pilot as a potential source for new pilots. The Navy has just about as many,if not more, helo pilots as they do fixed wing pilots. Most just need about 150 fixed wing PIC hours and the multi engine time to qualify for an ATP as they already have enough total time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

threeighteen
03-03-2017, 10:35 AM
Not sure what "normal" numbers are for the ex-military annually, but I predict that number is going to go up dramastically over the next 5 years. People are turning down promotions and bonuses and getting out at a much higher rate than before.

Actually the contrary. The military doesn't have a bottomless well full of pilots, they're actually dealing with a very serious shortage right now.

It may spike for a few years, but within 5-10 years they will only be able to contribute MAYBE 1000 pilots per year, likely less.

The helo-conversion guys might supplement that a bit, but we aren't sure how significant that will be just yet.

HighFlight
03-03-2017, 11:50 AM
Not 150 FW PIC, but 250. Unless you're referring to Navy only, and they get about 100 FW in flight training? The Army helo drivers get out with zero FW hours unless they flew on their own.

It's about time the airlines started realizing that helo pilots make better 121 pilots. Took them long enough! :cool:

People are getting out, and the military is having trouble retaining folks, but there are not as many pilots as there have been in the past. That is partly why you see some regionals looking to the military helicopter pilot as a potential source for new pilots. The Navy has just about as many,if not more, helo pilots as they do fixed wing pilots. Most just need about 150 fixed wing PIC hours and the multi engine time to qualify for an ATP as they already have enough total time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

HighFlight
03-03-2017, 11:53 AM
I never said anything about a bottomless well of pilots. What I DID say is that more and more pilots are leaving the military in spite of the bonuses being thrown at them. Some are even turning down promotions, and some are foregoing sticking around for retirement. So for a while there will be an uptick in military pilots coming to the airlines.

I think the shortage to which you are referring is more off the top than off the bottom.

As for helo guys coming over, they are. Expect to see considerably more in the next 2-3 years as they get their FW ratings.

Actually the contrary. The military doesn't have a bottomless well full of pilots, they're actually dealing with a very serious shortage right now.

It may spike for a few years, but within 5-10 years they will only be able to contribute MAYBE 1000 pilots per year, likely less.

The helo-conversion guys might supplement that a bit, but we aren't sure how significant that will be just yet.

Tester130
03-03-2017, 12:17 PM
Not 150 FW PIC, but 250. Unless you're referring to Navy only, and they get about 100 FW in flight training? The Army helo drivers get out with zero FW hours unless they flew on their own.



It's about time the airlines started realizing that helo pilots make better 121 pilots. Took them long enough! :cool:



Correct, the Army helo drivers would need the full 250 PIC as well as all their fixed wing quals. I was referring to the Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Air Force rotor pilots who started in fixed wing and more than likely have at least a SEL commercial and airplane instrument. They would all be about 150 PIC hours short and represent a huge pool of pilots that could be trained quickly to qualify for an ATP.

There is an uptick in military pilots getting out to head to the airlines for now. Adding the helo pilots will help feed the regionals as they would not be competitive for a major until they have more fixed wing time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

atpcliff
03-04-2017, 02:31 AM
More and more mill pilots are flying UAVs, so have no experience inside an aircraft...

Aquaticus
03-04-2017, 02:58 AM
In my opinion, United is one step behind American.

Don't forget, American signed a deal for roughly 40 CRJ-700s with Skywest last year. Those plane were former United Express.

United is getting roughly 50 former American CRJ-200s through Air Wisconsin. It's a trade of regional pilots and American is getting more efficient planes while United takes a step back.

The 50 seaters have the most uncertain future among RJs and American is smart by keeping most of their 50 seat frames at their own companies.

American is adding new E175s at Envoy and used 700s at Skywest while old 200s leave the American system.

United screwed up by not paying Skywest more cheese to keep flying all the Expressjet E145s and Skywest 700s and they're paying for it now. Their product is taking a hit by shifting E145s from Expressjet to TSA and Comutair.

The future of American regional flying consists of more RJs operated by wholly owns which is smart considering the shortage of qualified and willing applicants and the better incentives wholly owns can offer.

The best thing United can do for it's RJ feed is start buying up regional airlines and offering the best flow through programs and overall pay. Their interview program and deal with Wisconsin is a step in the right direction but not enough.

UAL scope is maxed out on 70/76 seaters. The 50 seaters are a stop gap measure that is allowed under the scope clause. All those parked 70 seaters were to make way for 76 seat 175's. Ual deferred the 737-7 order until the max or neo bus is available to replace a good portion of the regional lift.

It doesn't make sense to buy and merge a regional list when there will never be a shortage of applicants at mainline and they can weed out the tin foil hat people. Most regionals have been hiring anyone with a pulse for the past 5 years. The flight attendants have language preventing it and the drama from the last integration is fresh on everyones mind.

TheFly
03-04-2017, 06:42 AM
Someone in the first couple pages was asking for an email/link: United Airlines signs five-year CPA with Air Wisconsin | Airports & Routes content from ATWOnline (http://m.atwonline.com/airports-routes/united-airlines-signs-five-year-cpa-air-wisconsin)

soitgoes
03-04-2017, 09:12 PM
More and more mill pilots are flying UAVs, so have no experience inside an aircraft...



You're out of your element, Donny.

soitgoes
03-04-2017, 09:52 PM
I never said anything about a bottomless well of pilots. What I DID say is that more and more pilots are leaving the military in spite of the bonuses being thrown at them. Some are even turning down promotions, and some are foregoing sticking around for retirement. So for a while there will be an uptick in military pilots coming to the airlines.



I think the shortage to which you are referring is more off the top than off the bottom.



As for helo guys coming over, they are. Expect to see considerably more in the next 2-3 years as they get their FW ratings.



If anyone has any doubt about dudes leaving/planning to leave the military en masse (AF, in particular), head over to the baseops forum and follow a thread called "Leaving the AF for the Airlines"... It's eye-opening, and ominously suggests that it's not just going to be an uptick.

People are counting down the days until their ADS commitments are up, and guys who are WELL beyond the 10-year mark are bouncing at unprecedented numbers, eschewing huge bonuses and the usually enticing idea of an AD retirement.

Add in another commonly overlooked portion of the military running to the regionals to add some quick hours/121 time to their resumes: Guard bums.

These are the young guys that, historically, fly their assess off on the Guard/Reserve side for years and years until they can either jump to the mainline or work their way into full-time jobs at their Guard squadron. There was never really any incentive for these guys to go the Regionals, as they could make more "bumming" and flying around the world. These guys now have the impetus, not to mention the new financial ABILITY (with the increase in regional pay), to run to the 121 side, pad their resumes and hours for a couple years, and walk their way into the Majors on a much shorter timeframe than has been usual.

The much-coveted full-time Guard flying gigs (usually considered THE best job in the military) that are coming open at record levels (as the senior guys are getting poached from the Majors) are actually getting snubbed by young Captain and Lieutenants who know they can make a livable wage at a Regional for a couple years (supplemented by flying Guard trips here and there), and then snag a much more lucrative job at mainline with little to no issue.

It's happening everywhere, and squadrons of all platforms are starting to feel the manning squeeze. My buddy is the scheduler at my unit and he has been complaining for months about the difficulty in filling local lines, and even the Gucci domestic/international trips that people used to stab each other in the back to get. We've had four of our full-timer pilots hired at UPS/Delta/SW in the past TWO WEEKS, and most of us young guys today were saying we weren't interested in applying for those vacancies, because it'll cut into our plan of building hours at a max rate at the regionals for the the next two to three years.

Do I know what these anecdotal evidences translate into as far as tangible numbers? No... Am I seeing direct evidence every week that military guys are going to be flooding out at a possibly unprecedented rate? Absolutely... It's already started, and it's going to get worse (or better, depending on which side of the table you're on).

Start throwing Helo guys in the mix, and those numbers are going to get even more interesting.

HighFlight
03-05-2017, 03:32 PM
Yes, I see it. More in tune with the AF and USA side of things than the USN and USCG, but I know I have people from at least three branches taking to me on a regular basis about walking away from the military. There's about to be a surge in available pilots in the next three years that have not been available since 2000. Mark my words.

If anyone has any doubt about dudes leaving/planning to leave the military en masse (AF, in particular), head over to the baseops forum and follow a thread called "Leaving the AF for the Airlines"... It's eye-opening, and ominously suggests that it's not just going to be an uptick.

People are counting down the days until their ADS commitments are up, and guys who are WELL beyond the 10-year mark are bouncing at unprecedented numbers, eschewing huge bonuses and the usually enticing idea of an AD retirement.

Add in another commonly overlooked portion of the military running to the regionals to add some quick hours/121 time to their resumes: Guard bums.

These are the young guys that, historically, fly their assess off on the Guard/Reserve side for years and years until they can either jump to the mainline or work their way into full-time jobs at their Guard squadron. There was never really any incentive for these guys to go the Regionals, as they could make more "bumming" and flying around the world. These guys now have the impetus, not to mention the new financial ABILITY (with the increase in regional pay), to run to the 121 side, pad their resumes and hours for a couple years, and walk their way into the Majors on a much shorter timeframe than has been usual.

The much-coveted full-time Guard flying gigs (usually considered THE best job in the military) that are coming open at record levels (as the senior guys are getting poached from the Majors) are actually getting snubbed by young Captain and Lieutenants who know they can make a livable wage at a Regional for a couple years (supplemented by flying Guard trips here and there), and then snag a much more lucrative job at mainline with little to no issue.

It's happening everywhere, and squadrons of all platforms are starting to feel the manning squeeze. My buddy is the scheduler at my unit and he has been complaining for months about the difficulty in filling local lines, and even the Gucci domestic/international trips that people used to stab each other in the back to get. We've had four of our full-timer pilots hired at UPS/Delta/SW in the past TWO WEEKS, and most of us young guys today were saying we weren't interested in applying for those vacancies, because it'll cut into our plan of building hours at a max rate at the regionals for the the next two to three years.

Do I know what these anecdotal evidences translate into as far as tangible numbers? No... Am I seeing direct evidence every week that military guys are going to be flooding out at a possibly unprecedented rate? Absolutely... It's already started, and it's going to get worse (or better, depending on which side of the table you're on).

Start throwing Helo guys in the mix, and those numbers are going to get even more interesting.

mdcny
06-12-2017, 12:35 PM
Kirby letter to United Emoloyee's

Congrats to all Air Whiskey pilots!! After 32 years - 6 airlines and 2 mergers in this industry I understand the angst and stress you guys have been going through. Welcome to the United Family, hope to see you in the right seat flying with me someday soon!

Dear Team,

To be the best airline in the world, there are two "must haves": the best people and the best route network. There's no doubt in my mind that we have the best people. Since joining United I've been consistently impressed by your energy, your enthusiasm and especially your ambition to compete and win.

We have the greatest route network potential in the world, with hubs in the five airports with the highest passenger volumes in the U.S. strengthened by two fantastic hubs at IAH and DEN. But we haven't fully realized the potential of that network... yet.

Despite all of our advantages, what's happened over the past five or six years is United has been shrinking, while our competitors have been growing at our expense. In particular, while we maintained our industry-leading international network, we've been shrinking domestically. In the same time frame, the domestic U.S. market has gone from being a historic money loser to being the most profitable place to fly anywhere in the world - and because weve been shrinking, we haven't benefitted in the same manner as our competitors.

This must change. Now, we're going to continue on our journey to become the world's best airline by realizing the full potential of our network. The foundation of any airline is the route network, and we're going to start realizing our network potential in two ways: first, by improving connectivity through our hubs, and, second, by competing and winning in our local hub markets by offering products and flight times that appeal to customers, especially frequent business travelers.

Network connectivity

One of the most important things to make a hub successful is connectivity. The more connections we offer and the higher the percentage of connecting customers we have flying through the hub, the bigger our competitive advantage.

When we add a new route to a hub that brings in more connecting traffic, it brings more customers to all of our other flights at that hub. All of our other flights become more successful, and then we can upgauge flights or add destinations that wouldn't have been profitable before. Those upgauged flights and new destinations, in turn, bring more customers to flow back through the network so we can add a new round of destinations, frequencies and upgauges, and the cycle goes on and on. It's exponential, and it becomes an upward spiral.

As an example, DEN is our most profitable hub today, and thats largely because it's also our highest percentage domestic connecting hub, which has allowed us to continue to grow there over the past few years.

Another good competitive example of how connectivity helps us compete and win would be a flight from ORD to LAX, where we might have 60 percent of the people on that flight connecting from 35 other destinations. Even if American (AA) offers the same flight, at the same time, if we're bigger and they can only connect passengers from 25 other destinations versus our 35, we'd have an extra 10 to 15 customers for which AA can't compete. That's the difference between a flight that's really profitable for us and a flight that's break-even or loses money for them. And the competitive advantage is even stronger versus low-cost carriers that can only compete with us for local traffic.

Profitable growth is another important way well be adding connectivity to our hubs: For example, every flight we add at ORD results in up to 80 additional possible connections. Another way to add connectivity is to realign the banks of flights. We'll be realigning banks at several of our hubs, including ORD, IAH and EWR, to maximize the total number of connecting flights for our customers.

Competing and winning in our hubs

We also need to compete and win in our hubs by offering local business travelers the customer experience and convenient flight times that will make them loyal to United. This includes upgauging our flights in highly competitive business markets, like between one of our hubs and that of one of our competitors.

A decade ago, from EWR to ATL (Atlanta), we flew eight flights a day on Boeing 737s. Delta (DL) flew 11 flights a day on mainline equipment. ATL is a bigger hub with more connectivity, so its 11 flights versus our eight made sense, but we still had a competitive business schedule for customers that lived in EWR, and when our frequent flyers in EWR wanted to go to ATL, they chose us. By 2013, we were flying six regional jets a day. Guess what happened then? Many of our EWR customers switched to DL, because they didn't want to fly on regional jets and we didn't have the frequency to support their business needs. That didn't just happen in the EWR to ATL market, it also happened in markets from EWR to DTW (Detroit), MSP (Minneapolis), DFW (Dallas/Fort Worth), CLT (Charlotte, North Carolina), etc., and across the board in many of our competitive hub-to-hub markets.

We are going to fix that. By this summer, we'll return to flying eight mainline EWR-ATL flights each weekday at times that are convenient for business travelers. Additionally, summer over summer, we have increased frequencies between ORD and PHX (Phoenix) by three flights and between ORD and MIA (Miami) by two flights. This is something we need to do across the system in competitive markets. It's not going to happen overnight, but this is the path to our future success.

Using regional feed to support mainline growth

At the same time, regional jets play an incredibly important supporting role in our network, because they help us serve small destinations profitably and feed traffic we wouldn't otherwise have into our hubs. The key is using them in the right markets. For example, a regional route from ORD to Rochester, Minnesota (RST) isn't a big enough market to support a mainline aircraft, but our ability to serve that small city with the right size airplane allows us to feed thousands of additional passengers through ORD and beyond.

Regionals are critical to growing connectivity at our hubs, feeding more traffic to the mainline and using that to grow the mainline. Since our regional partners are flying with the United brand painted on the airplane, we have to hold them to the same high standards of reliability and customer service that we hold ourselves to at the mainline. Our current regional partners provide great, seamless service and reliability in feeding today's network. But we have to use them in the right markets, not places like EWR-ATL.

To ensure we have the regional lift to deliver the increase in connecting traffic we need, we are partnering with former United Express carrier, Air Wisconsin (ZW). We expect that ZW will start flying early next year and have approximately 50 regional jets for us by next summer, with the expectation of adding 15 more in the future. They currently fly these aircraft for AA, so this is a great addition for us in two ways: We get to add these additional aircraft feeding small-city traffic into our hubs, and AA loses lift that used to be feeding its hubs. We plan to use these aircraft in the right kind of markets - meaning we'll be adding more small cities - such as RST and COU (Columbia, Missouri) - that can feed additional profitable traffic into our hubs that in turn will help us grow the mainline.

It's important to note that we are not growing our fleet of 50-seat aircraft, but as other partners have upgauged some of our 50 seat aircraft to 70- and 76-seat aircraft, our new partnership with ZW will enable us to maintain a consistent level of flying across our domestic network as we also upgauge and grow the mainline.

What's next?

While United has spent several years shrinking and being a docile competitor, starting this summer, were going back on offense! We are going to compete and win across the board in our hubs. That game plan kicked off with a number of new domestic and international flights that went on sale Saturday for flying beginning this summer. In total, weve added service to 31 destinations across the U.S. and Europe, including the addition of four all-new destinations: CMI (Champaign, Illinois), COU, RST and STS.
Here's a map of the additional flying we're announcing for this summer:

Map displaying additional flight announcements for
this summer

And here's a breakdown by hub, including the fleet types we're using for each of these new routes:


New
Destinations
New
Markets
Seasonal
Extensions
Frequency
Additions
DEN
COU 1X CRJ
SBP 1X E75
KOA 1X 752
ABQ #5 E70
FLL #2 738
MCO #4 320
TPA #2 739
EWR

SMF 1X 319
SLC 1X 738
ATL #7,8 738
DTW #7 E75
PDX #2 320
IAD


FLL 1X 738
JAX #3 E75
PVD #4 CR7
PWM #3,4 CR7
ROA #3 DH2
IAH

SGF 2X ERJ

ATL #8 E75
CHS #3 E75
ORD
CMI 3X ERJ
RST 3X ERJ
COU 2X CRJ
GEG 1X 320
CHO 1X CRJ
RNO 1X 319
TUS 1X E75
FLL #3 739
RSW #2 738
SFO
STS 3X CRJ
GEG 2X E75
BDL 1X 319
CVG 1X 320
DTW 1X 319
MSY 1X 320
MUC 1X 788
FCA 1X CR7

Im excited that we are adding flying at almost all of our hubs this summer. While I wish we could realize all of our growth aspirations overnight, it will take several years and were prioritizing growth in competitive markets in the near term.
ORD is a great hub and a competitive battleground where were going to grow basically as fast as the city can get us gates. With the exception of LAX, all of our other hubs also get varying levels of growth with new destinations and frequencies. Remember the upward spiral: Growing our hubs makes all of our existing flying that much stronger.
We are not adding any additional flying at LAX at this time because we need more gates before we can embark on a growth journey there. We are committed to LAX for the long game - exemplified through our recently remodeled and reopened United Club -- and were working hard to secure additional facilities that will give us the ability to compete vigorously. I believe in the future of LAX and its critical role as one of our hubs, and, as we are able to get commitments for more gates, Im looking forward to growth in LAX.
In addition to our domestic growth, we're also introducing a seasonal SFO-MUC (Munich) flight for the first time. Our joint venture (JV) partnerships are important to United's success, and we need to work cooperatively with our partners to make all of us more competitive. Through these government-approved partnerships, we jointly coordinate our schedules, sales, marketing and customer service to offer our customers many more travel options than we would otherwise be able to provide by ourselves. By cooperating closely and sharing the economic benefits in these relationships, we provide much better access for all customers to the broader networks of both United and those of our important partners. I haven't been shy about telling you and our JV partners, however, that the relationships need to be balanced - both financially and in terms of the amount of flying each airline does. Historically, United has been shrinking while our JV partners have been growing. The addition of this SFO-MUC flight is a down payment on restoring the equity in flying JV routes we all want and deserve.
We have a lot of work ahead to transform our network into the best in the world, but this summer is a great start. In the meantime, as I travel around the system - and I am doing a lot of that - I have never seen a team of aviation professionals working harder, smarter and more collaboratively than all of you to make United the worlds best airline for you, our customers and everyone we serve.
Let's go!
Scott
p.s. I'm sorry for the really long note, but I'm just so excited about the future here at United that I couldn't help myself.

Wonder if they will ever open a new hub altogether like DL did with SEA. One area UA is lacking is the southeast US.

schmohawk
06-12-2017, 06:07 PM
Wonder if they will ever open a new hub altogether like DL did with SEA. One area UA is lacking is the southeast US.

Interesting idea. A RDU united hub would be sick

twebb
06-27-2017, 09:06 AM
Will the PHL base be shrinking? Also, how long to hold a line in PHL?

Can anyone describe a typical trip out of PHL? I've read 4 on 3 off, legs per day, early start , late finishes.

Thanks.

mcat
06-27-2017, 10:29 AM
Will the PHL base be shrinking? Also, how long to hold a line in PHL?

Can anyone describe a typical trip out of PHL? I've read 4 on 3 off, legs per day, early start , late finishes.

Thanks.

Yes, it will be closed the beginning of February. It will shrink slowly until then. Any new hires today will most likely still be on reserve when it closes. As training is about 3-4 months long with IOE. PHL is mostly 4 on 3 off. 2-5 legs per day and a mix of early/late start and finish times.

Here is a pretty common trip.

Day 1: 3 legs
Day 2: 4 legs
Day 3: 2 legs
Day 4: 5 legs

idlethrust
07-07-2017, 04:14 PM
Yes, it will be closed the beginning of February. It will shrink slowly until then. Any new hires today will most likely still be on reserve when it closes. As training is about 3-4 months long with IOE. PHL is mostly 4 on 3 off. 2-5 legs per day and a mix of early/late start and finish times.

Here is a pretty common trip.

Day 1: 3 legs
Day 2: 4 legs
Day 3: 2 legs
Day 4: 5 legs
Correct me if im wrong,but dosent Air Wisconsin' employee id badges say American Eagle on the back ??
Will they issue you guys new ones like commute air that says United Express on the front?
Just curious



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1