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DALFA
02-27-2017, 09:52 AM
So how long before we start pulling back our flying to Europe because of NAI? Our flights to DUB - SNN - EDI will be the first to feel the hit.

"Norwegian Air sells a record 5,000 seats to Ireland in six hours"

Norwegian Air sells a record 5,000 seats to Ireland in six hours | IrishCentral.com (http://www.irishcentral.com/travel/norwegian-air-sells-a-record-5-000-seats-to-ireland-in-six-hours)


Cycle Pilot
02-27-2017, 10:19 AM
Look at the comments on that page, too. We're so screwed.

DALFA
02-27-2017, 10:22 AM
I just went to see if those low fares are just teaser fares at odd times but I priced a ticket to Dublin from Stewart for 5 days right over Thanksgiving and it came out to $289 round-trip including taxes. On the same days you can purchase a basic economy ticket on Delta for $550...about double.


e6bpilot
02-27-2017, 10:50 AM
I just went to see if those low fares are just teaser fares at odd times but I priced a ticket to Dublin from Stewart for 5 days right over Thanksgiving and it came out to $289 round-trip including taxes. On the same days you can purchase a basic economy ticket on Delta for $550...about double.



Norwegian fares don't include taxes on the return leg. So really the prices are about $100 less and you don't get snacks, are crammed in a max capacity configured cabin, and have to either live near or get to one of the airports they serve.
Not really a good deal.

Pancake
02-27-2017, 11:00 AM
The novelty of NAI will wear off, and frankly they're probably mostly attracting passengers that otherwise wouldn't be traveling. Think back 20 years ago to SWA, AirTran, and now Frontier, Spirit and Allegiant. Do we need to be aware of market trends and react smartly? Sure. We'll be fine. Our niche is the business traveler who's vested in Delta through their company, credit cards, and our vast network, all of which NAI can't touch (it took SWA 40 years to become a major player).

We should take notice and respond where it makes good business sense, but I'm not ready to sell the house and put the kids on the curb just yet.

Maybe all that JVing makes a little sense after all...

DALFA
02-27-2017, 05:13 PM
Norwegian fares don't include taxes on the return leg. So really the prices are about $100 less and you don't get snacks, are crammed in a max capacity configured cabin, and have to either live near or get to one of the airports they serve.
Not really a good deal.

The website says the price includes all taxes and fees. This fare also includes food on-board, a seat assignment, and 1 checked bag per person (same as legacy carriers)

Here's another example:

New York to Edinburgh on NAI = $695.80

https://image.ibb.co/ctLagF/Untitled.png

Same days on AA = $940, same days on DL = Over $1,300

https://image.ibb.co/n8D6ov/Untitled.png


So AA is 50% more expensive then NAI (the cheapest non-stop) and DL is about double.

DALFA
02-27-2017, 05:29 PM
Side question:

The Boeing website shows the 737-800 barely having enough range to reach Halifax from London. That's not considering any headwinds, contingency fuel etc.

How is NAI running the 737-800 from New York to EDI, DUB etc? Auxiliary tanks? They would need about 7,000 pounds of fuel per 450nm or so (400 in the winter with headwinds). SWF-YHZ is a little over 500nm so you're talking an extra 8,000-8,500 lbs of fuel at least. Won't that likely mean weight restrictions?

Maybe one of you guys can break it down for me to get a better understanding.

Denny Crane
02-27-2017, 05:38 PM
Disregard

Denny

e6bpilot
02-27-2017, 05:52 PM
Side question:

The Boeing website shows the 737-800 barely having enough range to reach Halifax from London. That's not considering any headwinds, contingency fuel etc.

How is NAI running the 737-800 from New York to EDI, DUB etc? Auxiliary tanks? They would need about 7,000 pounds of fuel per 450nm or so (400 in the winter with headwinds). SWF-YHZ is a little over 500nm so you're talking an extra 8,000-8,500 lbs of fuel at least. Won't that likely mean weight restrictions?

Maybe one of you guys can break it down for me to get a better understanding.



They are flying Max-8s. Much longer range. They are the delivery customer since SWA deferred its first few orders.

e6bpilot
02-27-2017, 05:53 PM
The website says the price includes all taxes and fees. This fare also includes food on-board, a seat assignment, and 1 checked bag per person (same as legacy carriers)

Here's another example:

New York to Edinburgh on NAI = $695.80

https://image.ibb.co/ctLagF/Untitled.png

Same days on AA = $940, same days on DL = Over $1,300

https://image.ibb.co/n8D6ov/Untitled.png


So AA is 50% more expensive then NAI (the cheapest non-stop) and DL is about double.



My bust. The teaser fares didn't include any of that stuff but it looks like going on their website that the non teaser fares you can bundle some of the stuff with it. The reason the return tickets cost so much more is the added on taxes.
Honestly though, unless you are a local, the transfer to and from those airports to the target cities along with the time lost doesn't make it worth the difference in fare.
If you live in Stewart or Providence, it is a great deal. If you live in Boston or NYC, not so much. Same with Europeans visiting the US.

zondaracer
02-27-2017, 06:01 PM
Side question:

The Boeing website shows the 737-800 barely having enough range to reach Halifax from London. That's not considering any headwinds, contingency fuel etc.

How is NAI running the 737-800 from New York to EDI, DUB etc? Auxiliary tanks? They would need about 7,000 pounds of fuel per 450nm or so (400 in the winter with headwinds). SWF-YHZ is a little over 500nm so you're talking an extra 8,000-8,500 lbs of fuel at least. Won't that likely mean weight restrictions?

Maybe one of you guys can break it down for me to get a better understanding.

737 MAX, Norwegian is the launch customer and deliveries start May 2017.

DALFA
02-27-2017, 06:13 PM
737 MAX, Norwegian is the launch customer and deliveries start May 2017.

Ok, that explains it.

Boeing lists the range of the 737-800MAX at 3,500nm and SWF-EDI is 2,800nm. Do you guys think it will have any issues on Westbound flights with 80-100mph headwinds and some weather in NY? Or is that 700nm buffer enough?

Packrat
02-27-2017, 08:46 PM
As an example:

Daughter broke her foot in Rome. Cost to get her home on short notice:

DAL - $2000
NAI - $400

Guess who she chose.

DALFA
02-27-2017, 09:19 PM
As an example:

Daughter broke her foot in Rome. Cost to get her home on short notice:

DAL - $2000
NAI - $400

Guess who she chose.

Pat, i'd like to buy a vowel.

Kjazz130
02-28-2017, 03:25 AM
A friend of mine just posted their experience on Norwegian. I'm paraphrasing but, the seats were cramped and uncomfortable (more than normal coach seats) and they weighed everything they had i.e. Wallet, neck pillow, backpack, cellphone, if all carry on items are over 7 kilos you are charged extra. I think they will have some success but the out of the way departure locations, the bad accommodations and the extra charges will limit their appeal. We need to continue to be a quality experience

BeatNavy
02-28-2017, 05:05 PM
My bust. The teaser fares didn't include any of that stuff but it looks like going on their website that the non teaser fares you can bundle some of the stuff with it. The reason the return tickets cost so much more is the added on taxes.
Honestly though, unless you are a local, the transfer to and from those airports to the target cities along with the time lost doesn't make it worth the difference in fare.
If you live in Stewart or Providence, it is a great deal. If you live in Boston or NYC, not so much. Same with Europeans visiting the US.

The drive to Stewart from my crash pad in queens is an hour and a half, and likely less than 2 hours for millions of people in the NYC area (and everywhere within a few hours north of NYC). Minus those in nyc with no car, I hardly doubt SWF is too much of a hike, and even then, only a train ride and Uber away, so only a little more of a pita than EWR/JFK for what could be the difference in affordability to go/not go.

e6bpilot
02-28-2017, 05:19 PM
The drive to Stewart from my crash pad in queens is an hour and a half, and likely less than 2 hours for millions of people in the NYC area (and everywhere within a few hours north of NYC). Minus those in nyc with no car, I hardly doubt SWF is too much of a hike, and even then, only a train ride and Uber away, so only a little more of a pita than EWR/JFK for what could be the difference in affordability to go/not go.


Yes, you can take public transit (for the most part) to Stewart, but the cost and hassle associated with doing so will be huge while dragging your bags along.
I may be wrong, but I think your average European who shows up there and hails a cab to take them to the city is going to be sticker shocked. Also, what times are these flights running? Middle of the day? Late at night?
Don't get me wrong, they will sell tickets. I am of the belief that they are here to stay and there isn't a thing the unions are going to do that is going to stop it. They have Boeing in their pocket and Boeing has the Trump administration in its pocket.
Do I like it? Nope. But there isn't a thing we can do about it, so we may as well figure out a way to coexist and contain them.
I just don't see them replacing or even making a huge dent in the established network carriers in the US for a lot of reasons.

iPilot
02-28-2017, 05:32 PM
I can see someone making a lot of money offering Manhattan-SWF bus rides.

Packrat
02-28-2017, 07:16 PM
I can see someone making a lot of money offering Manhattan-SWF bus rides.

It would be no different than the Boulder - DIA or Oak Harbor - SEA bus services.

NMuir
02-28-2017, 08:35 PM
The novelty of NAI will wear off, and frankly they're probably mostly attracting passengers that otherwise wouldn't be traveling. Think back 20 years ago to SWA, AirTran, and now Frontier, Spirit and Allegiant. Do we need to be aware of market trends and react smartly? Sure. We'll be fine. Our niche is the business traveler who's vested in Delta through their company, credit cards, and our vast network, all of which NAI can't touch (it took SWA 40 years to become a major player).




Exactly. I don't think they are going to really be eating in to the legacy market share. The people likely to take NAI are those who wouldn't likely be flying otherwise due to cost. It's a big market and there is room for lots of competition.

BlueMoon
03-01-2017, 09:55 AM
I can't wait to read all the complaints after a couple months of service. You generally get what you pay for.

iceman49
03-01-2017, 03:42 PM
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your POV, complaints usually do not enter into the success of an airline, as always its all about the price and marketing.

captjns
03-03-2017, 02:41 PM
I can't wait to read all the complaints after a couple months of service. You generally get what you pay for.

They've been around for more than a year in LAX. Reports from commuters between the U.S. and Europe are positive. Cheap typical Boeing pax seats. Cleans aircraft, with good service. No expectations of freebies as they are a LCC.

Don't you think it better, to ensure your airline operates above standard and be free of criticism rather than sitting idly with hand wringing waiting for the torrent of complaints from NAI?:rolleyes:

The Dominican
03-03-2017, 02:58 PM
I can't wait to read all the complaints after a couple months of service. You generally get what you pay for.

You want more complaints that what the US majors get on many long haul routes? And with good reason, service sucks.......!

Bravix
03-08-2017, 10:57 PM
You want more complaints that what the US majors get on many long haul routes? And with good reason, service sucks.......!

My international service with Delta has been pretty good. Better than LOT for sure. Better than Aeroflot...I realize that isn't saying much.

Loved Austrian. Good food, and the free Austrian beer was fantastic for airline beer.

Worse service was UIA. Never again. Primarily the food...I threw it away.

DALFA
03-09-2017, 03:14 PM
SAS Irish subsidiary to begin flights in November (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/sas-irish-subsidiary-to-begin-flights-in-november-1.2992398)

SAS is launching an Irish subsidiary now. Of course they say they're only going to fly intra-Europe flights but in a year or two they could easily add to what NAI is doing.



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