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View Full Version : And so its begun.....


Route66
03-15-2017, 06:08 AM
A Bill to preserve and protect the free choice of individual employees to form, join, or assist labor organizations, or to refrain from such activities.

Otherwise known as the National Right to Work Bill is in the House and Senate.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/785/text
Introduced by Rep. King of Iowa and Rep. How Wilson of SC. 01Feb2017.
Has 22 cosponsors of 219 needed to pass the House.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/545
Introduced by Sen. Rand Paul 10Mar2017.
Has 22 senators of 51 needed to pass the Senate.

Eliminates paragraph Eleventh of Railway Labor Act for mandatory union dues.

It WILL be going to the Presidents desk, hopefully this year.

For those of you who do not believe your union is worth spit (like the APA or ALPA) you can keep ALL OF YOUR MONEY. These unions have been crapping on the junior people, the Regionals, OR selectively giving greater seniority "payola" to their CHOSEN FEW for many years. Its time for change.


Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 06:16 AM
........edited in post below

Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 06:22 AM
For those of you who do not believe your union is worth spit (like the APA or ALPA) you can keep ALL OF YOUR MONEY. These unions have been crapping on the junior people, the Regionals, OR selectively giving greater seniority "payola" to their CHOSEN FEW for many years. Its time for change.

Yeah, and how are we better off if we have no unions? Paying no dues? There's a reason jetBlue unionized from their "labor friendly" management. You are so misguided it's not even funny. You think airline management is looking out for your best interests? I'm not saying unions are perfect, far from it, but they ARE necessary in our industry.

Good luck to you the next time the company violates your scheduling rules (you won't have any) or you need representation in the event you have an incident/accident (you won't get any).


deadseal
03-15-2017, 06:24 AM
If you think you won't get absolutely bent over by your respective airline with out a union then you are an idiot. And before you quote Skywest, they have the threat of unionization looming over their necks. And they still get pretty screwed with work rules. When do the racist/sexist white men who voted for him realize and/or admit they got bamboozled by a Wall Street shark who cares nothing about the working man? This guy has done this through out his entire career as a business man, it's no shocker that it's happening in the WH too. But hey, we get a 30 billion dollar wall, and a Chinese steel pipeline right? If it wasn't so pathetic it be almost funny.

Geardownflaps30
03-15-2017, 06:28 AM
If you think you won't get absolutely bent over by your respective airline with out a union then you are an idiot. And before you quote Skywest, they have the threat of unionization looming over their necks. And they still get pretty screwed with work rules. When do the racist/sexist white men who voted for him realize and/or admit they got bamboozled by a Wall Street shark who cares nothing about the working man? This guy has done this through out his entire career as a business man, it's no shocker that it's happening in the WH too. But hey, we get a 30 billion dollar wall, and a Chinese steel pipeline right? If it wasn't so pathetic it be almost funny.

"like" button

Route66
03-15-2017, 06:50 AM
Yeah, and how are we better off if we have no unions? Paying no dues? There's a reason jetBlue unionized from their "labor friendly" management. You are so misguided it's not even funny. You think airline management is looking out for your best interests? I'm not saying unions are perfect, far from it, but they ARE necessary in our industry.

Good luck to you the next time the company violates your scheduling rules (you won't have any) or you need representation in the event you have an incident/accident (you won't get any).

This thread is for the "silent" minority who agree with me. From just the responses I've seen so far, this thread is going to be a doozie. No matter.

The union damage is soon to be done. Pandoras box is open and there is nothing you can do about it. Ive been in this industry for 40 years and only now are we seeing the fractionalization of unions. The foundational cracks were and are there, but now Norwegian Air is opening the doors, the various pilot groups will be at each others throats even more (as if that already seemed possible before) and the gates are now beginning to open.

Only a national seniority list would have cured this problem when Carter deregulated in Airline Industry. Unionism at the airline level might have had a chance. But greed overcame principle and the flood gates are opening. So don't preach to me about your "righteous" cause. Go complain to your union rep. You know, the one who has NO power to do anything.

BTW, my schedules are just fine.

Jaded N Cynical
03-15-2017, 06:54 AM
Sounds like Rt66 is an Anti-Union, management troll. Crawl back into your gutter from which you came.

Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 06:55 AM
This thread is for the "silent" minority who agree with me. From just the responses I've seen so far, this thread is going to be a doozie. No matter.

The union damage is soon to be done. Pandoras box is open and there is nothing you can do about it. Ive been in this industry for 40 years and only now are we seeing the fractionalization of unions. The foundational cracks were and are there, but now Norwegian Air is opening the doors, the various pilot groups will be at each others throats even more (as if that already seemed possible before) and the gates are now beginning to open.

Only a national seniority list would have cured this problem when Carter deregulated in Airline Industry. Unionism at the airline level might have had a chance. But greed overcame principle and the flood gates are opening. So don't preach to me about your "righteous" cause. Go complain to your union rep. You know, the one who has NO power to do anything.

BTW, my schedules are just fine.

Explain to me how right to work will help us as pilots? You think it's bad now, what will happen when you have pilots on the same list that are union and others that aren't? That'll be great for advancing our profession. 🙄

Time to step away from the Alex Jones broadcasts.

SeamusTheHound
03-15-2017, 07:00 AM
I love the arseholes who complain about 2% union dues, while raking in substantially more (+30% at least) in pay and benefits than they could possibly get if they were "lone rangers."

Read up on trade guilds and other history of organized labor before you blather on about paying union dues. Maybe one upside of losing union solidarity is that it will someday be much easier to get rid of schittheads like you. (...and to THAT I say "good riddance".)

GogglesPisano
03-15-2017, 07:12 AM
Ask yourself how many pilot groups have voted to decertify their union and have a "direct relationship" with their management. Then ask yourself how many non-union groups have eventually voted for representation.

I think I see a trend.

(National Seniority List -- yeah that's a fair solution.:rolleyes:)

This is an attempt to visit a last death-blow to organized labor in this country. History tells us it won't work out well for the middle class.

sweetholyjesus
03-15-2017, 07:14 AM
For those of you who do not believe your union is worth spit (like the APA or ALPA) you can keep ALL OF YOUR MONEY. These unions have been crapping on the junior people, the Regionals, OR selectively giving greater seniority "payola" to their CHOSEN FEW for many years. Its time for change.This I somewhat agree with. A change from ALPA would be good for the regionals. ALPA primarily serves the mainline's agendas, which hurt the regionals. Serving both sides of the table at once is a huge conflict of interests.

However, removing unions altogether would be a bad thing. No one in their right mind would ditch ALPA if they had a mainline job. But I wonder what would happen to regional unions if this passed?

trip
03-15-2017, 07:20 AM
If you think you won't get absolutely bent over by your respective airline with out a union then you are an idiot. And before you quote Skywest, they have the threat of unionization looming over their necks. And they still get pretty screwed with work rules. When do the racist/sexist white men who voted for him realize and/or admit they got bamboozled by a Wall Street shark who cares nothing about the working man? This guy has done this through out his entire career as a business man, it's no shocker that it's happening in the WH too. But hey, we get a 30 billion dollar wall, and a Chinese steel pipeline right? If it wasn't so pathetic it be almost funny.

Well that didn't take long.
Three posts and your all racist/sexist pigs.

deadseal
03-15-2017, 08:25 AM
Well that didn't take long.
Three posts and your all racist/sexist pigs.

Why else could anyone in their right mind vote for a man who has no decorum, no self control, and has a clear non biased factual track record of ****ting on every business deal he can? Could you imagine this guy as your squadron cc or OG or WC? As someone's screen name says , sweet holy Jesus. And before you say Hillary was/is a crooked POS, I agree with you. There was a third party or you could abstain. I hope everyone realizes that this guy is gunning for organized labor right? Everyone gets that? No *****footing around, this goes right after every airline pilots quality of life.

sweetholyjesus
03-15-2017, 08:44 AM
Why else could anyone in their right mind vote for a man who has no decorum, no self control, and has a clear non biased factual track record of ****ting on every business deal he can? Could you imagine this guy as your squadron cc or OG or WC? As someone's screen name says , sweet holy Jesus. And before you say Hillary was/is a crooked POS, I agree with you. There was a third party or you could abstain. I hope everyone realizes that this guy is gunning for organized labor right? Everyone gets that? No *****footing around, this goes right after every airline pilots quality of life.We desperately need competent third party candidates. This video alone is why I decided not to vote for Gary Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xlmU9LvtAs

No Land 3
03-15-2017, 08:49 AM
Translation reads, "right to be fired with no reason given".
I am a pro Trumper, but living in such a state, and having experienced what this can lead to, this is a horrible thing for anyone other than the business owner.

DC8DRIVER
03-15-2017, 09:25 AM
This thread is for the "silent" minority ...

... of one.

Andy
03-15-2017, 09:27 AM
We desperately need competent third party candidates. This video alone is why I decided not to vote for Gary Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xlmU9LvtAs

All four candidates sucked. I could come up with labels for anyone who voted for Clinton, Johnson, or Stein. None of those labels would be completely accurate (well, maybe labelling Stein voters as tree huggers would be legit). But to label all Trump voters as 'racist/sexist white men' or 'deplorables' only makes me want to vote for Trump and ignore all of his flaws.

deadseal, if you ever want to influence others to do the opposite of what you want, start out by insulting them. More than anything else, the 'deplorables' comment cost Clinton the election.

ShyGuy
03-15-2017, 09:32 AM
Enjoy...............


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfCCwEf_J5A

deadseal
03-15-2017, 09:40 AM
I'm not trying to convince anybody, I don't really care which way you voted and I'll happily tell you to your face what I think unless it's a captain at the start of a 4 day. I do think that the statistical demographics of trump voters says a lot in a scientific non partisan way. I also think that's a funny comment to say that you would vote for Trump regardless of your own self interest just to get back at people that call you deplorable for voting for Trump. Isnt there something about cutting your nose off to spite your face?

Let me ask an honest question to the pilot group that is on topic.

Does anyone reconsider their trump vote now with this?

Shindo
03-15-2017, 09:49 AM
Does anyone reconsider their trump vote now with this?

nope, Still happy I did.

Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 09:58 AM
But to label all Trump voters as 'racist/sexist white men' or 'deplorables' only makes me want to vote for Trump and ignore all of his flaws.

I personally don't believe all Trump voters are racists, misogynists and xenophobes. To label everyone of them in that way is obviously wrong. But there is one label that universally applies to every Trump voter: Gullible

No Land 3
03-15-2017, 10:02 AM
I'm not trying to convince anybody, I don't really care which way you voted and I'll happily tell you to your face what I think unless it's a captain at the start of a 4 day. I do think that the statistical demographics of trump voters says a lot in a scientific non partisan way. I also think that's a funny comment to say that you would vote for Trump regardless of your own self interest just to get back at people that call you deplorable for voting for Trump. Isnt there something about cutting your nose off to spite your face?

Let me ask an honest question to the pilot group that is on topic.

Does anyone reconsider their trump vote now with this?
Nope, infact I want to place two giant marble busts of Reagan and Trump at the entrance of my driveway.

ridinhigh
03-15-2017, 10:04 AM
Still happy I didn't.

Karnak
03-15-2017, 10:33 AM
Nope, infact I want to place two giant marble busts of Reagan and Trump at the entrance of my driveway.

The International Brotherhood Of Pigeons - Local 1123, will thank you!

Andy
03-15-2017, 10:33 AM
I personally don't believe all Trump voters are racists, misogynists and xenophobes. To label everyone of them in that way is obviously wrong. But there is one label that universally applies to every Trump voter: Gullible

Ah yes, another label. Because 'gullible' is much more acceptable in snowflakeworld than 'deplorable', 'racist', 'misogynist', and 'xenophobe'.

No Land 3
03-15-2017, 10:59 AM
The International Brotherhood Of Pigeons - Local 1123, will thank you!

I dare say that pro labor liberals are still a vast minority in the current pilot pool, yet we all understand the importance of a strong pilot union. Interesting dynamic, wouldn't you say?

OneEyedMonster
03-15-2017, 11:07 AM
A Bill to preserve and protect the free choice of individual employees to form, join, or assist labor organizations, or to refrain from such activities.

Otherwise known as the National Right to Work Bill is in the House and Senate.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/785/text
Introduced by Rep. King of Iowa and Rep. How Wilson of SC. 01Feb2017.
Has 22 cosponsors of 219 needed to pass the House.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/545
Introduced by Sen. Rand Paul 10Mar2017.
Has 22 senators of 51 needed to pass the Senate.

Eliminates paragraph Eleventh of Railway Labor Act for mandatory union dues.

It WILL be going to the Presidents desk, hopefully this year.

For those of you who do not believe your union is worth spit (like the APA or ALPA) you can keep ALL OF YOUR MONEY. These unions have been crapping on the junior people, the Regionals, OR selectively giving greater seniority "payola" to their CHOSEN FEW for many years. Its time for change.

Trash, pure and simple, the "logic" you just put on display.

Unions can collapse if slugs are allowed to not pay their fair share (dues) while the heavy lifting is done by those who pay dues.

How clueless can you be to think the profession is better off once people stop paying dues at their airlines? Seriously, how can you be that clueless?

(Nevermind. Read your last posts, you are a clueless troll who has an agenda.)

Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 11:12 AM
Ah yes, another label. Because 'gullible' is much more acceptable in snowflakeworld than 'deplorable', 'racist', 'misogynist', and 'xenophobe'.

It may not be acceptable to you, but of those labels it's the most accurate.

Route66
03-15-2017, 11:18 AM
Trash, pure and simple, the "logic" you just put on display.

Unions can collapse if slugs are allowed to not pay their fair share (dues) while the heavy lifting is done by those who pay dues.

How clueless can you be to think the profession is better off once people stop paying dues at their airlines? Seriously, how can you be that clueless?

(Nevermind. Read your last posts, you are a clueless troll who has an agenda.)

That is exactly right. Because the TRUE definition of "scab" is EXACTLY what the righteous APA/ALPA pilots did to US Airways and TWA pilots.

My agenda is against the discriminatory BEHAVIOR of labor unions against their minorities. The APA stripped me and many other of my seniority if FAVOR OF THEIR MAJORITY. While the physical actions and racial overtones of Jim Crow were certainly much WORSE than that of our cause, the practice by APA and ALPA are of the same discriminatory ilk. And to that I say if your one of them, and you support that action, them you are what the union defines as a "SCAB". PURE AND SIMPLE.

Clueless? Ive been "involved" in union activity for over thirty years in this industry to know more than you!

Route66
03-15-2017, 11:20 AM
Ah yes, another label. Because 'gullible' is much more acceptable in snowflakeworld than 'deplorable', 'racist', 'misogynist', and 'xenophobe'.

Yes. Labels. Like "scabs", "trolls", etc...

GogglesPisano
03-15-2017, 11:27 AM
That is exactly right. Because the TRUE definition of "scab" is EXACTLY what the righteous APA/ALPA pilots did to US Airways and TWA pilots.

My agenda is against the discriminatory BEHAVIOR of labor unions against their minorities. The APA stripped me and many other of my seniority if FAVOR OF THEIR MAJORITY. While the physical actions and racial overtones of Jim Crow were certainly much WORSE than that of our cause, the practice by APA and ALPA are of the same discriminatory ilk. And to that I say if your one of them, and you support that action, them you are what the union defines as a "SCAB". PURE AND SIMPLE.

Clueless? Ive been "involved" in union activity for over thirty years in this industry to know more than you!

It all makes sense now. Someone who "got screwed in the merger" wants his sweet revenge. Revenge being turning us all into "at will" employees.

No Land 3
03-15-2017, 11:52 AM
It may not be acceptable to you, but of those labels it's the most accurate.

Yes, reserved for anyone who disagrees with the left wing.

Route66
03-15-2017, 12:04 PM
It all makes sense now. Someone who "got screwed in the merger" wants his sweet revenge. Revenge being turning us all into "at will" employees.

It is what it is. I know unions don't represent me, they don't represent the American worker (anymore) and the only way to hold their feet to the fire is make them work for the dues money. The APA has done more to damage and screw up the contract we have then I could EVER have done.

When did the "light bulb" turn on for you or have you always been this naive?

GogglesPisano
03-15-2017, 12:11 PM
It is what it is. I know unions don't represent me, they don't represent the American worker (anymore) and the only way to hold their feet to the fire is make them work for the dues money. The APA has done more to damage and screw up the contract we have then I could EVER have done.

When did the "light bulb" turn on for you or have you always been this naive?

The guy advocating a national seniority list calling someone else naive: priceless. At least you admitted your animosity towards collective bargaining.

I've asked this question already: can you give us an example of a pilot group voting out a union with no replacement? The history of the industry is replete with examples in the other direction. Does this turn on any "light bulbs" for you?

What do you think of the correlation between the decline of unions and the decline of the middle class in the US? Simple coincidence?

Andy
03-15-2017, 12:12 PM
It may not be acceptable to you, but of those labels it's the most accurate.

Labels. How Jonathan Gruberesque.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adrdmmh7bMo

Judge Smails
03-15-2017, 12:19 PM
Labels. How Jonathan Gruberesque.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adrdmmh7bMo

Just like Trumpers love to use the term liberal (in a derogatory way), libtard, libturd, snowflake etc. Next time try to make a point that isn't so easily countered.

Andy
03-15-2017, 12:21 PM
What do you think of the correlation between the decline of unions and the decline of the middle class in the US? Simple coincidence?

Not to steer too far off topic, but do you really think that the middle class is declining? What is middle class, anyway? - CNNMoney (http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/)

And if the middle class is shrinking, do you think that the lower class and/or upper class is growing?

If you think that the upper class is growing while the lower class is static or shrinking, is this an issue?

This article breaks the middle class into upper middle, middle, and lower middle. Note that both lower middle and middle have shrunk while upper middle class grew more than the previous two shrunk. America's upper middle class is thriving - Jun. 21, 2016 (http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/21/news/economy/upper-middle-class/)

I haven't dug through the data, but I suspect that one will find that the upper and upper middle class have grown over the years while the middle, lower middle, and lower classes have declined. I consider that to be a good thing.

GogglesPisano
03-15-2017, 12:24 PM
Andy: Median income has been declining since the early 1970's. I'll have to read more of your article later.

Andy
03-15-2017, 12:28 PM
Just like Trumpers love to use the term liberal (in a derogatory way), libtard, libturd, snowflake etc. Next time try to make a point that isn't so easily countered.

LOL! Are there any points that can't be easily countered? :D You and I may not agree on those points, but it's easy to counter just about any political argument.

Andy
03-15-2017, 12:34 PM
Andy: Median income has been declining since the early 1970's. I'll have to read more of your article later.

According to FRED (Fed Reserve St Louis), median income (adjusted for inflation) took a big hit 2008-2012, but has since recovered and is just a hair below the late 1990s. It's definitely higher than 1984 when they started compiling the data.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

No Land 3
03-15-2017, 12:37 PM
Just like Trumpers love to use the term liberal (in a derogatory way), libtard, libturd, snowflake etc. Next time try to make a point that isn't so easily countered.

Those are derogatory labels, purposely used as such, because they are...

Out West
03-15-2017, 07:09 PM
Edit - never mind. See above; liberal on.

Welcome to Costco, I love you.