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Route66
03-16-2017, 08:56 AM
Well I see my thread about the National Right To Work Act was deleted. I figured that was a possibility. And that's OK. Because what it proves is that differing points of view are NOT tolerated. I put no profanity in them. I kept it civil. On purpose.

What it PROVES is that disfunctionality is even on the forum here. Only union pilots are allowed to participate. And again, that's OK. And here is why: because the ignorance of the discriminatory practices of union functions will only hasten their demise.

If unions are to survive, the ONLY way they will is if they are willing to accept accessment from outside and revise their business model. That will be when pigs fly, because the money is where their power is. Managing principles is where the power is. NOT THE MONEY.

Most of you don't like my accessments about unions and so be it. But sticking your heads in the sand is a typical union reality in the 21st Century. Just like it was since David Benekhe was starting ALPA.

I truly hope the professional pilots in America are ready for it.


RyeMex
03-16-2017, 09:00 AM
I could be wrong, but based on what little I read of your prior thread, I would imagine that there is a fairly good chance that your thread was closed because by about post #3 someone had turned it into a political "the left are babies / the right are idiots" shouting match.

Route66
03-16-2017, 09:10 AM
I could be wrong, but based on what little I read of your prior thread, I would imagine that there is a fairly good chance that your thread was closed because by about post #3 someone had turned it into a political "the left are babies / the right are idiots" shouting match.

Thank you. There's another possibility. And even reinforces my points even more. Pilots are so disfunctional that majic tricks and slight of hand distractions cause them the problems they face now a days. As a major airline pilot for over thirty years pilots keeping their eyes on the ball is a complete impossibility. And many wonder why I don't want to be a member of such a disfuntional group that, for now, has a legal right to your pocket book.


CAirBear
03-16-2017, 03:00 PM
I could be wrong, but based on what little I read of your prior thread, I would imagine that there is a fairly good chance that your thread was closed because by about post #3 someone had turned it into a political "the left are babies / the right are idiots" shouting match.

And how many other posts has the same BS happened in with no deletion or anything? How many posts are completely off topic and full of Bs? What a joke.

Post it again Route66.

Route66
03-16-2017, 04:56 PM
And how many other posts has the same BS happened in with no deletion or anything? How many posts are completely off topic and full of Bs? What a joke.

Post it again Route66.

I will when it passes and signed into law.

Cheddar
03-17-2017, 03:45 AM
the ignorance of the discriminatory practices of union functions will only hasten their demise.



If unions are to survive, the ONLY way they will is if they are willing to accept accessment from outside and revise their business model. That will be when pigs fly, because the money is where their power is. Managing principles is where the power is. NOT THE MONEY.



Most of you don't like my accessments about unions and so be it. But sticking your heads in the sand is a typical union reality in the 21st Century. Just like it was since David Benekhe was starting ALPA.



I truly hope the professional pilots in America are ready for it.


I don't often agree with your "tactics" (and I'm not trying to be derogatory) in the AA section even if I might actually think many of your arguments are valid, but I wish I had read the other thread before it was closed. I don't know why the thread was removed, but I couldn't agree more with the statement above.

"Let us reason together." - said someone much smarter than Cheddar

Edited for lack of coffee!

Route66
03-17-2017, 10:12 AM
I don't often agree with your "tactics" (and I'm not trying to be derogatory) in the AA section even if I might actually think many of your arguments are valid, but I wish I had read the other thread before it was closed. I don't know why the thread was removed, but I couldn't agree more with the statement above.

"Let us reason together." - said someone much smarter than Cheddar

Edited for lack of coffee!

That is a very thoughtful gesture that I totally agree with. I like that. Let us reason together.

It was simply about the National Right to Work Act which eliminates the mandatory dues payments by non-members, of which I am one. Its not that I am necessarily against unions, but I KNOW you can't change it UNLESS you, the individual, can withhold YOUR hard earned money from an entity that fails to perform in a fashion that advocates the interests as a whole with fundamental principles.

I am anti-union, anti-ALPA, anti-APA because APA motto "through these doors walks the worlds finest pilots" is only for LAA pilots. Their LOS and even those of the LAWA pilots have used their system to advance their small groups interests and not those of the whole.

My belief only (maybe) and my right. But I KNOW the power to the APA and ALPA is growing weaker by the day, the NRTW Act will soon be passed and the wasted dollars going to Carey, Wilson, Bates, etc. will come to an end.

Only THEN can a new way of real thinking come about. The corpus must die before the Phoenix can rise again. Dick Lyons, whom most of you do NOT even know, would approve. Look him up.

Again, let us reason together.

TonyC
03-17-2017, 01:24 PM
Well I see my thread about the National Right To Work Act was deleted.




You see wrong, as usual. It wasn't deleted, it was closed. It's here:

And so its begun..... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/union-talk/100555-so-its-begun.html)

Maybe it was locked because you intended it to be "a doozie." Maybe it was locked because you started throwing around the scab label. Maybe it was closed because you, for whatever reason, seem to have a hard time lately engaging in civil conversation.


Maybe you could find a different outlet or solution for your anger issues.







.

Route66
03-17-2017, 01:35 PM
You see wrong, as usual. It wasn't deleted, it was closed. It's here:

And so its begun..... (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/union-talk/100555-so-its-begun.html)

Maybe it was locked because you intended it to be "a doozie." Maybe it was locked because you started throwing around the scab label. Maybe it was closed because you, for whatever reason, seem to have a hard time lately engaging in civil conversation.


Maybe you could find a different outlet or solution for your anger issues.







.

Hmmmm. Again, my point is made. BTW, the "scab" label is not my label. Its a union made label and IN FACT it is in the APA Constitution and Bylaws. Even ALPA doesn't have it in theirs. Again, not my term of endearment. But now that you and I both said the "S" word i'm sure this thread will be closed as well. Doozie??? Really?? Can you say "micro-agression"? PC. Look it up.

HercDriver130
06-07-2017, 09:44 PM
That is a very thoughtful gesture that I totally agree with. I like that. Let us reason together.

It was simply about the National Right to Work Act which eliminates the mandatory dues payments by non-members, of which I am one. Its not that I am necessarily against unions, but I KNOW you can't change it UNLESS you, the individual, can withhold YOUR hard earned money from an entity that fails to perform in a fashion that advocates the interests as a whole with fundamental principles.

I am anti-union, anti-ALPA, anti-APA because APA motto "through these doors walks the worlds finest pilots" is only for LAA pilots. Their LOS and even those of the LAWA pilots have used their system to advance their small groups interests and not those of the whole.

My belief only (maybe) and my right. But I KNOW the power to the APA and ALPA is growing weaker by the day, the NRTW Act will soon be passed and the wasted dollars going to Carey, Wilson, Bates, etc. will come to an end.

Only THEN can a new way of real thinking come about. The corpus must die before the Phoenix can rise again. Dick Lyons, whom most of you do NOT even know, would approve. Look him up.

Again, let us reason together.

First let me say I think you make some valid observations.... I do have one question however, lets say you were allowed as a non member to not pay dues... thus in my opinion you should NOT be allowed any of the benefits negotiated under your companies CBA... thus YOU must negotiate your own term and conditions.. would your submit to that? I.e, no membership.. no dues.. simply at the employees at the will of the company and subject to what they may or may not choose to compensate you... ???

METO Guido
06-08-2017, 05:18 AM
If unions are to survive, the ONLY way they will is if they are willing to accept accessment from outside and revise their business model. That will be when pigs fly, because the money is where their power is. Managing principles is where the power is. NOT THE MONEY.

"Money is where their power is" because it's where everyone's power is. Try to hire using organizing principles as a compensation basis, you'll be in charge of exactly one guy. What is your union selling? Is it making good on that arrangement? How membership "manages" those perceptions, for themselves, will greatly determine the effectiveness of and satisfaction with, any bargaining in progress. Repealing agency shop fee statutes means less money. Less money is less power, every time.

Packrat
06-08-2017, 06:50 AM
I do have one question however, lets say you were allowed as a non member to not pay dues... thus in my opinion you should NOT be allowed any of the benefits negotiated under your companies CBA...

For one thing, non-members don't pay dues. They pay a contract agency fee which is generally slightly less than the dues members pay.

Why? Because, as you pointed out, they derive all the pay and benefits from the Union negotiated contract. Therefore, they must share the expense of maintaining said contract.

TonyC
06-08-2017, 10:46 AM
For one thing, non-members don't pay dues. They pay a contract agency fee which is generally slightly less than the dues members pay.

Why? Because, as you pointed out, they derive all the pay and benefits from the Union negotiated contract. Therefore, they must share the expense of maintaining said contract.




Suppose Company A offered employment to Pilot P at one of two payrates. He could work as a non-union pilot for X dollars, or he could join the union and earn (1.1 * X) dollars and pay 1.9% dues on X + 10% dollars. Anybody with a basic calculator can do the math and see Pilot P would come out ahead by paying the dues on 110% of the first offer.


What most people seem to miss is that without collective bargaining, we'd ALL be working for 10% or more less than current wages. They fail to appreciate the gains that have been clawed out over years of blood, sweat, and tears.

They say ignorance is bliss, and freeloaders must be floating in it.






.

HercDriver130
06-11-2017, 12:45 PM
For one thing, non-members don't pay dues. They pay a contract agency fee which is generally slightly less than the dues members pay.

Why? Because, as you pointed out, they derive all the pay and benefits from the Union negotiated contract. Therefore, they must share the expense of maintaining said contract.

No kidding Genius... my question was hypothetical... presuming that an employee could choose NOT to be a member and not pay the shop agency fee.....

Dharma
07-02-2017, 05:50 PM
Unions protect us from the company, sometimes from each other, and sometimes from ourselves. Freeloaders fall into all of those categories many times.

Route66 would have us believe the choice is getting our current contractual package and paying dues, or our current contractual package and not paying dues. That's wrong.

The choice is between protection (admittedly sometimes flawed) and (almost) no protection. We'd be "at will" employees trying to negotiate individual contracts, and that has never worked out well for the vast majority of labor. The powers behind the RTW movement are the new Frank Lorenzo's of the world. Read "Flying the Line" 1 & 2. They're good reminders of where we've been, and how we got where we are today.