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Nevjets
03-22-2017, 05:49 PM
ALPA is asking all pilots to join our Call to Action urging Congress to maintain the current minimum first officer qualification rules to ensure safety for the U.S. airline industry.
The best and most important safety feature of any airline operation is a well-trained, highly experienced, and qualified professional pilot. With a solid foundation of training and experience, pilots are essential in maintaining the safety of our system and ensuring that aviation safety continues to advance. Several regional airline accidents from 2004 to 2009 identified numerous training and qualification deficiencies that ultimately led to Congressional action (P.L. 111-216) and regulatory changes that significantly improved aviation safety.
Some industry representatives who had initially been very supportive of the regulations have since become critical and are now arguing that they have created a pilot shortage and, worse, are urging Congress to take action that would weaken, or eliminate altogether, many of the key components of the first officer qualification and training rules issued in 2013óreverting back to an environment that contributed to 31 airline accidents cited by FAA. That is not in the public's interest.


serthwrmtym
03-22-2017, 06:05 PM
Except that the 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with safety.

rickair7777
03-22-2017, 06:06 PM
Except that the 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with safety.


Better than nothing.

At least it filters out a few dooshy ADD slackers who don't have the attention span to wait more than six months to get into an airliner.


tcco94
03-22-2017, 06:08 PM
You aren't ready to be an airline pilot at 250 hours.

The 1500 hour rule sucks when you're the one building time but once you're done you realize, yeah I wasn't ready. No way. Unless your ego is high and unrealistic.

Duesenflieger
03-22-2017, 06:14 PM
You aren't ready to be an airline pilot at 250 hours.

The 1500 hour rule sucks when you're the one building time but once you're done you realize, yeah I wasn't ready. No way. Unless your ego is high and unrealistic.

+1111111111

We have a winner here....

Pedro4President
03-22-2017, 06:23 PM
I think most would agree that 201.5+50 FTD is too little and 1500 is a bit excessive.

The negative with the 1500 is guys with time and DUIs, high fail rates, incidents and FAA violations are getting looked at and hired because of the lack of 1500 hr guys with a clean record and very little bust.

Duesenflieger
03-22-2017, 06:34 PM
Part 135 IFR minimums require 1200 hours TT. Aviation university graduates can gain employment with less than that at 1000 hrs TT. How much lower should it go, pray tell?

AZFlyer
03-22-2017, 06:42 PM
You aren't ready to be an airline pilot at 250 hours.

The 1500 hour rule sucks when you're the one building time but once you're done you realize, yeah I wasn't ready. No way. Unless your ego is high and unrealistic.

Agreed.

I think most would agree that 201.5+50 FTD is too little and 1500 is a bit excessive.

The negative with the 1500 is guys with time and DUIs, high fail rates, incidents and FAA violations are getting looked at and hired because of the lack of 1500 hr guys with a clean record and very little bust.
I don't think you'll see many airline pilots agree with you that 1500 is a bit excessive. Bean counters on the other hand, they absolutely would agree.

tcco94
03-22-2017, 06:43 PM
I think most would agree that 201.5+50 FTD is too little and 1500 is a bit excessive.

The negative with the 1500 is guys with time and DUIs, high fail rates, incidents and FAA violations are getting looked at and hired because of the lack of 1500 hr guys with a clean record and very little bust.
You can get 1000 hours instructing in 1 year so anyone complaining that it "takes too long" is probably picking QOL as an instructor over building time. Which is totally understandable, but really you should get at least 1 year experience under your belt as a true PIC before hoping into passenger jets.

1000 hours for college grads is perfect, even though the training they receive really isn't THAT much better than a 61/141 school. (and that comment comes from someone who got an aviation degree with a R-ATP)

Anything over 1000 is a little bit extra but really is does no harm. Also, nothing will be done to stop a DUI or high failures from getting through the industry in todays world with retirements. I've met some good pilots though with 4+ failures and I've met guys with 10+ years after their DUI that learned from it and are actually great guys. Don't be quick to judge. I think most airlines do good jobs of weeding out at interviews or in training, but then again you're right....someone else will pick up the tab at another regional if you fail out/don't get picked. I won't post names but we all know what airline.

Nothing Congress can do about that.

aviatorpr
03-22-2017, 07:05 PM
1500 has helped create a shortage in the regional sector. That has led to compensation improvements. Let's not take another step backwards.

HighFlight
03-22-2017, 07:07 PM
With 3,000 hours, I felt like I was ready to be an airline pilot. Barely...

zondaracer
03-22-2017, 07:47 PM
Except that the 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with safety.

Says the guy who doesn't even have 500 hours.

knewyork
03-22-2017, 08:30 PM
You can almost justify paying someone with 250-500 hours $22/hr. Let's not go backwards here.

WhiskeyDelta
03-22-2017, 08:36 PM
1500 hours helps weed out the ones that aren't serious about the job/profession.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

prex8390
03-22-2017, 08:37 PM
Except that the 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with safety.

I remember when I drank UND's kool aid about how "prime airline pilots are at 500-700 hours". and that everything beyond it is all detrimental to society. Yup says the professors that have never worked in the airline industry and now preach their knowledge because they did "studies".

In the end it's like being a 19 year old just wanting to go buy a beer and cursing those that made the law 21, and then when you finally get to 21 and you see the point and how reckless you would have been if you had been legally able to drink back then . More or less It's weeding out the kids that would rather blow their load and go to Great Lakes, wash out there because they're not the super pilot they think they are than spend 15 monthes teaching and actually learning. I learned more and had more fun teaching my Chinese kids than I have in a crj.

BizJet
03-22-2017, 08:53 PM
You can get 1000 hours instructing in 1 year so anyone complaining that it "takes too long" is probably picking QOL as an instructor over building time. Which is totally understandable

It took me about 2.5 years to get to 1000TT from 200TT. However, I was on the QOL side of instructing. Small University + QOL made for an awesome couple of years.

Four day camping trip? See ya!
Rainy day and you want to sleep in? DONE

I actually kind of miss it if you don't factor in the horrible pay.

Spike from flyi
03-22-2017, 09:02 PM
No one in Congress is moving toward changing this. As usual, the ALPA Legislative Affairs group is, "out to lunch." (it's headed by a law school drop-out.)

The real threat is Indonesian pilots with BS logbooks coming in on H1B Visas because of the "pilot shortage."

There is no "pilot shortage", there is only a shortage of airlines willing to pay pilots the going rate.

For once, get ahead of this one!

yeahbutstill
03-22-2017, 09:04 PM
I cant even imagine what would happen to flight schools if that goes away. They have a hard time getting CFI's as it is

tcco94
03-22-2017, 09:19 PM
It took me about 2.5 years to get to 1000TT from 200TT. However, I was on the QOL side of instructing. Small University + QOL made for an awesome couple of years.

Four day camping trip? See ya!
Rainy day and you want to sleep in? DONE

I actually kind of miss it if you don't factor in the horrible pay.

Yup, exactly! Some people aren't in a huge rush because they have an awesome job and probably location (like yourself) and take the hit building time. Also, probably better quality students and possibly more money.

I took a hit on my QOL and taught Chinese in AZ. Still had fun but worked A LOT and also got 1000 dual given in 1 year and I was off to the airlines. People just complain it can't be done. It can be done, but you have to out weigh the options. Do you want to have fun, good money, benefits, and an awesome experience (like you) or do you want to log hours the fastest way possible with 1 vacation in your year. Lol.

In some ways if I did it over I would have instructed back at my flight school or somewhere I could have a more relaxed and fun experience and enjoyed teaching....but I can't complain with getting done in the amount of time I had.

Just gotta follow what you want, but building 1500 hours really isn't that a big of deal like people set out to make it. I'm sure you agree with me, relatively it sounds like.

No Land 3
03-22-2017, 09:25 PM
They should take the 1500 hour rule, and make it 2000 hours, 1500 hours in the past 5 years. None of this 1500 hours flying day vfr out of uncontrolled airports in a cub for the past 20 years.

SoaringSW
03-22-2017, 10:38 PM
There is something to be said about the quality of flight versus the quantity of flight hours. An unfortunate byproduct of the "1500 hour" rule has been the encouragement for students to obtain their CFI rating at 250 hours and "teach" students how to run around the pattern for 750-1250 hours.

Where 135 operations used to be a quality stepping stone for new commercially rated pilots to earn quality flight time, now the 135 minimums require 1200 hours to get started.

These high time rules and a lack of part 91 operations sufficient for time building opportunities is forcing pilots to become instructors whether they want to teach or not. This industry is particularly odd in that our instructors at the Private-commercial levels have some of the least experience in the industry. But we encourage this as a way to bridge the gap between 250 and 1500 hours in many cases.

I think the real solution is probably a mix of the comments here, but primarily a reduction of the part 135 minimums to allow lower risk operations to be conducted by pilots with around 350 hours. This would give some opportunities to build practical experience in the industry and allow pilots to progress towards the ATP minimums without the encouragement to log hundreds of laps around the pattern each month.

This would hopefully drive more industry professionals into the instructing world, and start a circulation of industry knowledge instead of this low level circulation of basic, and in many cases rote knowledge and experience. Encourage pilots to fly more routes instead of laps around the pattern.

Flyboyxc91
03-22-2017, 11:32 PM
I've been instructing making $51K salary flying glass cockpits for the last 1.5 years and I'm now about about to be done... I HAVE LEARNED ALOT. I hated the 1500 hour rule but it hasn't been a deal breaker with me CHOOSING my career path. I have instructed two different places and this last one I would consider staying at longer if the industry was what it was 8 years ago, thankful and even partially from the 1500 hr rule it is better. I would say however to be fair, 1500 hours is a little excessive on the ruling in my humble opinion. I believe 1000 hours is plenty for ANY college major especially if you have a STEM degree (not just an aviation degree)... I have two BS degrees in chemical engineering, and Biology.. went to work for Boeing then to flight school. Flown with tons of guys out of "Aviation Degree" schools that COULDNT do partial Panel compass turns or knew the difference in LPV And LNAV minimums on a GPS RNAV IAP.... BTW I also flew a lot with the aviation grads that were great. Point is the R-ATP because of the aviation degreee is just a marketing money ploy congress passed for these schools to make more money and apease the public. It should be some form of FAA Inspector competency test if applicants go choose to take it or STEM degree graduates R-ATP with certain GPAs etc. I enjoyed my time instructing and will continue to do so even as an airline pilot.

No Land 3
03-23-2017, 12:16 AM
I've been instructing making $51K salary flying glass cockpits for the last 1.5 years and I'm now about about to be done... I HAVE LEARNED ALOT. I hated the 1500 hour rule but it hasn't been a deal breaker with me CHOOSING my career path. I have instructed two different places and this last one I would consider staying at longer if the industry was what it was 8 years ago, thankful and even partially from the 1500 hr rule it is better. I would say however to be fair, 1500 hours is a little excessive on the ruling in my humble opinion. I believe 1000 hours is plenty for ANY college major especially if you have a STEM degree (not just an aviation degree)... I have two BS degrees in chemical engineering, and Biology.. went to work for Boeing then to flight school. Flown with tons of guys out of "Aviation Degree" schools that COULDNT do partial Panel compass turns or knew the difference in LPV And LNAV minimums on a GPS RNAV IAP.... BTW I also flew a lot with the aviation grads that were great. Point is the R-ATP because of the aviation degreee is just a marketing money ploy congress passed for these schools to make more money and apease the public. It should be some form of FAA Inspector competency test if applicants go choose to take it or STEM degree graduates R-ATP with certain GPAs etc. I enjoyed my time instructing and will continue to do so even as an airline pilot.
I too am college educated, with a crapload of pre-med college credits. With that said, college and a high gpa cannot replace quality time in seat. The Europeans seam to think so, but they also deep stall Airbuses over the Atlantic.

Flyboyxc91
03-23-2017, 12:39 AM
I too am college educated, with a crapload of pre-med college credits. With that said, college and a high gpa cannot replace quality time in seat. The Europeans seam to think so, but they also deep stall Airbuses over the Atlantic.

I never said it could replace it but I'm saying the scope of screaming safety for a 1500 hr rule is slightly exaggerated for most cases of individuals. The airline and FAA easily understand what a pilot is capable of when they do airline training when a person has 1000+ quality hours after 2 years of instructing 135 etc... if it doesn't cut it then chances are 1500 definitely might not either.

tcco94
03-23-2017, 12:47 AM
Well absolutely it's a marketing ploy, otherwise Universities would have a hard time selling their product. What would be the point to pay extra for training that could be worse than your local flight school?

In the grand scheme of things, 500 hours is not worth getting the 4 year degree and paying extra. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my degree, loved college and would do it the exact same way again. People choosing the aviation college just for the R-ATP doesn't make sense though. It's not worth it if someone is going just for the hour reduction. Now if you're going to college anyways and want to actually study aviation, different story. That would be my selling point to someone getting started in aviation looking at a aviation degree. It's a really fun degree!

No Land 3
03-23-2017, 12:56 AM
I never said it could replace it but I'm saying the scope of screaming safety for a 1500 hr rule is slightly exaggerated for most cases of individuals. The airline and FAA easily understand what a pilot is capable of when they do airline training when a person has 1000+ quality hours after 2 years of instructing 135 etc... if it doesn't cut it then chances are 1500 definitely might not either.

When I was a 141 check pilot, I thought I was top gun, when I got right seat in a CRJ, I realized I didn't know anything, when I got left seat in a CRJ, I realized how crappy of an FO I was. When I got to Kalitta, I knew to be humble and learn from everyone else that I can't even hold a candle to, in terms of experience, type ratings, and story telling.
The point is, experience is everything.

HercDriver130
03-23-2017, 03:43 AM
First, we should ALL be learning EVERY time we fly. but I digress.....the reality is in general.... 250-300 hour pilots shouldn't be in the right seat of a commercial airliner. YES there are exceptions, life's not fair. I would be willing to give reduced our minimums to guys like the R-ATP that go thru stringent training programs.. I mean programs where at some point the instructors or staff have the balls to say... NO.. you just can't hack it a this level with your experience and fail them and wash them out. Problem is its a for profit system and guys are going to go to a program like that. I guess what I mean.. is..there HAS to be a chance of total failure because you can't perform at a certain level. I once was visiting a friend at a local airport who owned a flight school, one of his students was taxiing out for his Solo.....41 hours.. FORTY ONE freaking hours to solo a 172.... I dont want that guy flying commercial airliners. the system will find a balance pay is coming up... and will continue to do so most likely. The industry will adapt. CADET style programs like Lufthansa has used for decades are probably coming at some point.... run effectively ...with REAL threat of failure... and they will succeed.

jules11
03-23-2017, 04:21 AM
1500 has helped create a shortage in the regional sector. That has led to compensation improvements. Let's not take another step backwards.

YES! I don't know why so many 121 guys are so against it.

Mercyful Fate
03-23-2017, 06:58 AM
Wait, why even talk about this? I thought people wanted regionals gone, so that students could step right in with a major right off the bat.

BizJet
03-23-2017, 07:19 AM
Yup, exactly! Some people aren't in a huge rush because they have an awesome job and probably location (like yourself) and take the hit building time. Also, probably better quality students and possibly more money.

I took a hit on my QOL and taught Chinese in AZ. Still had fun but worked A LOT and also got 1000 dual given in 1 year and I was off to the airlines. People just complain it can't be done. It can be done, but you have to out weigh the options. Do you want to have fun, good money, benefits, and an awesome experience (like you) or do you want to log hours the fastest way possible with 1 vacation in your year. Lol.

In some ways if I did it over I would have instructed back at my flight school or somewhere I could have a more relaxed and fun experience and enjoyed teaching....but I can't complain with getting done in the amount of time I had.

Just gotta follow what you want, but building 1500 hours really isn't that a big of deal like people set out to make it. I'm sure you agree with me, relatively it sounds like.

Yep! Some guys could get it within a year or so if they worked the schedule to get 8 flight hours a day. Yeah some weeks I worked my butt off and flew everyday. That, however, was normally a means to a trip I was taking the next week. Normally if I took a long weekend off I'd make it up to my students the week before or after.

Getting 8 flight hours a day was hard. It meant you normally scheduled 10+ hours. Something would always happen to ground you be it MX, weather, student, etc..

Before the 1500 rule my plan was to go to Cape Air to build time and get my ATP. Then at some point switch over to the regionals. After the 1500 rule it made no sense to go to Cape Air if I could start the regionals at 1000TT. I think I'd be a more experienced pilot if I had ended up going to Cape Air.

Five93H
03-23-2017, 07:39 AM
Posted this in the 9E thread, figured this would help for those interested:

Go to ALPA.org
Login, and select 'Member' at the top. Look for the "Calls to Action" section and it's under there. Already has your congresspeople selected, and a standard form letter. Add your own comments or send as it. Takes a minute all in all.

rickair7777
03-23-2017, 08:15 AM
I've been instructing making $51K salary flying glass cockpits for the last 1.5 years and I'm now about about to be done... I HAVE LEARNED ALOT. I hated the 1500 hour rule but it hasn't been a deal breaker with me CHOOSING my career path. I have instructed two different places and this last one I would consider staying at longer if the industry was what it was 8 years ago, thankful and even partially from the 1500 hr rule it is better. I would say however to be fair, 1500 hours is a little excessive on the ruling in my humble opinion. I believe 1000 hours is plenty for ANY college major especially if you have a STEM degree (not just an aviation degree)... I have two BS degrees in chemical engineering, and Biology.. went to work for Boeing then to flight school. Flown with tons of guys out of "Aviation Degree" schools that COULDNT do partial Panel compass turns or knew the difference in LPV And LNAV minimums on a GPS RNAV IAP.... BTW I also flew a lot with the aviation grads that were great. Point is the R-ATP because of the aviation degreee is just a marketing money ploy congress passed for these schools to make more money and apease the public. It should be some form of FAA Inspector competency test if applicants go choose to take it or STEM degree graduates R-ATP with certain GPAs etc. I enjoyed my time instructing and will continue to do so even as an airline pilot.

Yes, I'd give the R-ATP to STEM grads over aviation grads.

B727DRVR
03-23-2017, 08:25 AM
No one in Congress is moving toward changing this. As usual, the ALPA Legislative Affairs group is, "out to lunch." (it's headed by a law school drop-out.)

The real threat is Indonesian pilots with BS logbooks coming in on H1B Visas because of the "pilot shortage."

There is no "pilot shortage", there is only a shortage of airlines willing to pay pilots the going rate.

For once, get ahead of this one!

So true, Spike!

Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.

As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.

Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.

The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."

Riverside
03-23-2017, 08:45 AM
With 3,000 hours, I felt like I was ready to be an airline pilot. Barely...

Ironic that a lot of pilots upgraded with less hours.

rickair7777
03-23-2017, 10:12 AM
Ironic that a lot of pilots upgraded with less hours.

Not too many.

Riverside
03-23-2017, 10:27 AM
Not too many.

You don't think so?

450knotOffice
03-23-2017, 11:18 AM
Very well laid out portrayal of how it used to be. I was the lowest time guy in my class at Eagle when I got hired back in late 1991 with 2050 TT and about 320 multi, along with the requisite ATP. The minimums back then were 1500/300 and an ATP, but those were not really competitive times. I seem to recall that most in my class back then had around 4500TT/1000+ Multi.

It was just a given that we were going to have to instruct for a couple of years (a time I still recall fondly), earn our ATP, try to get on with a 135 operation or, if lucky, hopefully get on with a "commuter" back then and sit right seat in a 19 seat Metro or Jetstream. No one screamed that it was unfair, it just was what it was.

On a side note, I and most of my peers felt that we REALLY learned how to fly during our years as instructors. No, we did not exclusively bore holes around the pattern at uncontrolled airports. We gave quite a bit of advanced instruction to pilots earning their Instrument ratings, along with a bit of multi-IFR training - all in the congested airspace of the SoCal LA basin.

During my years at Eagle, I eventually became an IOE check-airman in the EMB145. The total times of the new FO's coming in in those days was at an all-time low - averaging about 500TT/50ME, and sometimes significantly lower - and while these folks were all very sharp individuals, great with procedure, systems, and checklists, they were initially totally overwhelmed by the speed, climb rate, wing loading, FMS, etc. Visual approaches, in particular, proved difficult for most of them. With that said, most eventually caught on and went on to become great FO's and eventually CA's. But it was tough for them initially, as a rule. Prior to that era, the folks who came in with closer to 1000 to 1200+ seemed to adjust to the jets much more easily.

Just my take.

So true, Spike!

Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.

As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.

Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.

The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."

Nevjets
03-23-2017, 11:53 AM
There is something to be said about the quality of flight versus the quantity of flight hours. An unfortunate byproduct of the "1500 hour" rule has been the encouragement for students to obtain their CFI rating at 250 hours and "teach" students how to run around the pattern for 750-1250 hours.



Where 135 operations used to be a quality stepping stone for new commercially rated pilots to earn quality flight time, now the 135 minimums require 1200 hours to get started.



These high time rules and a lack of part 91 operations sufficient for time building opportunities is forcing pilots to become instructors whether they want to teach or not. This industry is particularly odd in that our instructors at the Private-commercial levels have some of the least experience in the industry. But we encourage this as a way to bridge the gap between 250 and 1500 hours in many cases.



I think the real solution is probably a mix of the comments here, but primarily a reduction of the part 135 minimums to allow lower risk operations to be conducted by pilots with around 350 hours. This would give some opportunities to build practical experience in the industry and allow pilots to progress towards the ATP minimums without the encouragement to log hundreds of laps around the pattern each month.



This would hopefully drive more industry professionals into the instructing world, and start a circulation of industry knowledge instead of this low level circulation of basic, and in many cases rote knowledge and experience. Encourage pilots to fly more routes instead of laps around the pattern.



You can get an ATP with as low as 750-1250 hours. Also, part 135 minimums are 500 hours. The 1200 hours is for IFR operations.

Irishblackbird
03-23-2017, 03:23 PM
So true, Spike!

Recently, I listened to a radio interview with an American IT supervisor for a US-based company, who was laid off and replaced with an Indian H1B recipient making much lower pay! To add insult to injury, they forced the American to train his Indian replacement or risk being terminated and losing benefits. This, I feel, is the greatest threat to American pilots.

As far as the 1500 hour rule, I have to laugh at those who think that 1500 hours is "a lot" of time or "too long". As a geezer, I remember as a student in the late 80's, pilots were getting hired with "the commuter airlines" with as little as 1000 total/100 multi. As the economy went South, Desert Storm pilots flooded the market, and Eastern and Pan Am collapsed, requirement times slowly inched up to 1200/100, 1500/100, 1500/250, 1500/500, 2000/250, 2500/500, and I eventually saw 4000 total/1000 multi for a $1000/mo. crap job flying a Metroliner or Casa 212 or Shorts.

Then, with thousands of pilots on furlough from the military forced drawdowns, furloughs from AA, US Air, America West, Delta, Midway, the regionals, etc., about 90 % of the regionals went to to Pay for Training scam. Pilots, already deep in student loan debt, were forced to pay an additional $18,000-$20,000 for their own Regional Airline training, room, and board for as little as a $16,000/year job. This instantly created a caste system in US Aviation. Gone were the days where a aspiring pilot could cut grass, work at the FBO, and do whatever it took to build flight time and be reasonably assured that you could get a job... Now, only foreigners and the rich kids could aspire to get a regional job because it didn't matter if you had 10,000 hours/5000 multi/1 moon landing/1 shuttle landing, you still couldn't get the job unless you paid the $20,000. You would regularly see the advertisements with the young kid in an airline uniform... "Hi, I,m (substitute your favorite rich kid name... Thad, Biff, Skippy, etc...), my Daddy's rich and got me this job with a regional through the Flight Safety program with only 250 hours". And this environment was rife with scams.... Pilots would show up to a flight school (having deposited $50,000 plus in their flight account), only to find the doors shuttered and their money gone. Pilots would pay for their training and and then airlines would rescind their offers. Or, airlines would put an inordinant amount of pilots in class (each paying $20,000), and then wash out most of them. It was well known that there were these puppy pilot mills that could care less if they brought you on the company or if you failed, as long as you paid the money. Some companies even charged pilots for interviews! The only real winners I saw in the Pay for Training scam were the pilots that paid to get hired with Continental Express and actually got a Continental, and eventually, United seniority number. Things got better, but Pay for Training was still alive and well with Southwest B737 Type requirement. I know so many pilots that spent their last $7500 to get that type rating just to get an interview at SWA. Pay for training was the bane of our industry, and it could come back if we went back to the 250 hour European model.

The current hiring outlook compared to the black days of the past reminds me of the quote.. "These ARE the good old days..."

Spot on! It's amazing how quickly we forget what it was truly like. Anyone south of 40 would not remember what it was like and the gains this industry has seen in the last 4-5 years. I was lucky enough to land a job flying a Navajo and King Air in the early 90's and felt damn lucky to have that job, knowing that if I lost it I would be SOL, because there was no way I could aford the training cost associated flying for an regional. Heck, even Net jets (formerly EJA) was requiring pilots to front their training costs. My prediction, if Congress rolled back the 1500 hour rule, I still don't think many people are going to flood the system again. I honestly think this genration is uninterested in the profession and financial commitment needed to achieve the ratings. Even Brock, Biff, and Thurston's parent's aren't going to come to the rescue this time when they find out they will be living at home with mommy and daddy because the salaries went in the wrong direction again.

Tpinks
03-23-2017, 04:19 PM
I don't think you'll see many airline pilots agree with you that 1500 is a bit excessive. Bean counters on the other hand, they absolutely would agree.
Of course you won't, because they are in the system and it won't affect them.

Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."

450knotOffice
03-23-2017, 04:48 PM
Of course you won't, because they are in the system and it won't affect them.

Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."

Except for the part where it ABSOLUTELY DID affect us. Re-read the posts above from myself and a few others who got into airline flying 25-30 years ago. Only 1500 hours?! Heck, that would've been awesome! We LIVED through competitive minimums SIGNIFICANTLY higher than now, and were paid a LOT less to fly tiny little turboprops, compared to the 45,000 to 75,000+ pound jets that new hires fly today.

tcco94
03-23-2017, 05:18 PM
Of course you won't, because they are in the system and it won't affect them.

Just like you won't ever see Mainline pilots stand up for regional pilots... "I'm at mainline now, so what happens down there doesn't affect me..."

Mmmm or maybe it's the quality of their new first officers? Just a thought....

jmo901
03-24-2017, 06:48 AM
There are plenty who are far better pilots at 500 hours than some others at the magic 1000/1500 number. The regionals hand out CJOs like business cards today. Get the hours, don't say anything stupid in the interview and you got the job. Why not reduce the hour requirement and make the hiring process more competitive?

CBreezy
03-24-2017, 07:01 AM
There are plenty who are far better pilots at 500 hours than some others at the magic 1000/1500 number. The regionals hand out CJOs like business cards today. Get the hours, don't say anything stupid in the interview and you got the job. Why not reduce the hour requirement and make the hiring process more competitive?

This is the exact reason WHY there is a hours requirement. The regionals have proven not to be responsible in choosing quality pilots over cheap pilots. The reason Colgan happened, aside from very poor airmanship from the Captain is that the airline refused to distance itself from a subpar aviator. The argument in favor of the 1500/1000 hour rule is that it gives you experience that you don't get with a wet commercial.

The pilot shortage was always coming. It was delayed by age 65 and then accelerated by the ATP rule. If we go back to 500 hour pilots, there will still be a shortage. It won't make the process more competitive. The airlines are going to have to replace almost half their workforce in 10 years. Tens of thousands of pilots.

The reason you are getting weak pilots at 1000 hours is because the pay has finally reached a point where Joe Midlife Crisis can justify taking a stab at it. The people who have left the industry are still staying away, although the pay increase is starting to bring them back.

I don't disagree that the ATP rule is arbitrary. Are there really bad 1500 hour pilots flying VFR direct to their $100 hamburger every weekend? Absolutely. Are there really good 500 hour pilots who have solid IFR and airmanship skills? Absolutely. Unfortunately, there had to be something done to keep 200 hour 40 day wonders out of regional jets, the easiest and most logical way to do it was just make everyone get an ATP and provide cutouts for structured training.

GogglesPisano
03-24-2017, 07:12 AM
Call to action = Done. 1500 should be the absolute minimum for a pilot at an airline. There's a reason the ATP requires it.

-- Goggles Pisano (2500TT/350 Multi -- earned through slogging it out instructing/135 for 7 years when hired at first airline.)

DirkDiggler
03-24-2017, 09:48 AM
In addition to doing the ALPA campaign, please also email the Transportation Committee directly and express your concerns.

Main feedback email: [email protected] and the general email is [email protected]

AC560
03-24-2017, 01:29 PM
I agree safety is key which is why everyone should support FAA inspectors do all checkrides versus company check airmen. Write your Congressman/woman so we can make the skies safer.

CBreezy
03-24-2017, 01:37 PM
I agree safety is key which is why everyone should support FAA inspectors do all checkrides versus company check airmen. Write your Congressman/woman so we can make the skies safer.

The FAA inspector's​ job with the airline is not to give checkrides. If it became that, the cost would be almost paralyzing to the FAA. They do perform spot inspections. Although, I wouldn't oppose being checked by the FAA.

Nevjets
03-24-2017, 10:19 PM
As your constituent, a professional airline pilot, and a member of the Air Line Pilots Association, Intíl (ALPA), I am writing to bring your attention to a matter that is important to pilots, the flying public and me personally: upholding landmark aviation safety legislation, the Airline Safety and FAA Extension Act of 2010. This law significantly improved training and qualification requirements for first officers Ė and improved the safety of our skies. It is a measure that was written in blood, and should not be weakened in any way, shape or form. I am asking you to ensure that any pilot flying with me has the training necessary to be a safe and successful commercial airline pilot.

The Federal Aviation Administration has identified 31 accidents over a nine-year period that government and industry designed the current minimum qualifications to address. These included four fatal accidents that cost 150 people their lives. Since the FAA implemented the new qualifications in 2013, our country has not had a single passenger fatality due to an accident on a scheduled U.S. passenger airliner (Part 121). The qualifications include a minimum number of hours controlling aircraft (1,500 hours for pilots without formal classroom training), training specifications, and other safety protocols. There is a direct correlation between the decline of accidents and these mandates.

There are special interests in Washington, D.C. who, for reasons of profit, seek to weaken our air safety regulations. Some claim these standards are too stringent and reduce the number of pilots available. But letís be clear; there real shortage falls with our regional airlines and its willingness to pay qualified pilots a decent salary. That is where we should focus. Degrading U.S. aviation safety requirements is not the solution for our airlinesí economic problem.

Furthermore, the facts clearly show that there is not currently a pilot shortage in the U.S. Since July 2013, the FAA issued more than 25,500 active Air Transport Pilot (ATP) certificates, the certification required to serve as a professional commercial airline pilot. That number exceeds even the most optimistic pilot forecast needs.

Most airlines enjoy an excess of pilot applicants. Regional airlines that have increased compensation, added flow-through opportunities to mainline carriers, and created better working environments have seen a large increase in applicants for pilot jobs. The small number of carriers unable to attract pilots offer poor compensation packages and working conditions, and inadequate career opportunities. We should not jeopardize safety because some small air carriers arenít willing to fairly compensate commercial airline pilots.

Professional pilots are highly qualified, technically trained individuals with the skills to choose many other career paths. Your safety is my top priority on each and every flight. Join us in keeping our air safety system the safest mode of transportation in the world. I urge you to support common sense and oppose any attempts to change the Airline Safety and FAA Extension Act of 2010. I look forward to hearing back from you on this very important issue.

highflyer0685
03-25-2017, 06:12 AM
If they get rid of the 1500 hour rule you can say goodbye to signing bonuses, higher hourly wages, etc at the regional level. Also any hopes of a major pilot shortage that would affect the major/legacy carriers can be kissed goodbye. Are there guys out there who could come in with 250 hours and never bust a checkride and be a great pilot?? Sure there are....but anyone currently at a regional or anyone who has their 1500 hours certainly doesn't want it. Keep us the pilots a commodity and force the regionals to pay us more and compete for our services until we move onto the majors.

Duesenflieger
03-25-2017, 07:06 AM
If they get rid of the 1500 hour rule you can say goodbye to signing bonuses, higher hourly wages, etc at the regional level. Also any hopes of a major pilot shortage that would affect the major/legacy carriers can be kissed goodbye. Are there guys out there who could come in with 250 hours and never bust a checkride and be a great pilot?? Sure there are....but anyone currently at a regional or anyone who has their 1500 hours certainly doesn't want it. Keep us the pilots a commodity and force the regionals to pay us more and compete for our services until we move onto the majors.

Exactly! The whole point of mandating ATP minimums so that one may become an airline pilot is to kill the regionals, or at the very least to elevate starting pay to something more livable. When pay is $17k for someone starting, they are forced to make sacrifices which makes them overwork, or live in conditions such as sleeping in crash pads after a long commute in order to arrive at work on time. Fatigue is a huge issue and is a major contributor to roughly 20% of aviation accidents according to the NTSB! It's no joke. It is good for safety that ATP minimums are required to be hired by an airline because it puts enormous pressure on the regionals which seek to take advantage of the system and pay pilots $10k if they could escape with doing so! The whole point is to avoid altogether another Colgan Air flight 3407!!!

ClickClickBoom
03-25-2017, 08:56 AM
I too am college educated, with a crapload of pre-med college credits. With that said, college and a high gpa cannot replace quality time in seat. The Europeans seam to think so, but they also deep stall Airbuses over the Atlantic.

Sorry, flight time is a composition of more than a few things, flying is just one small component, judgement and decision making skill are just a couple of others. Those deep stall guys weren't exactly inexperienced in aviation, but their inexperience was in just the wrong places. Right after the stall/splash event we did similar training, the process was interesting to say the least.
BTW, this job is a blue collar endeavor, of the last few guys I have flown with were a couple were, H.S. Grads with no college experience, they both were some of the better F/Os I have flown with. If it takes 4 years to be a journeyman heavy equipment operator, it follows that being an airline pilot would take at least the same approx time.

block30
03-25-2017, 09:29 AM
Except that the 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with safety.

Go tell an insurance company that hours don't matter. You got license X, so good 'nuf.