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View Full Version : Norwegian adds Denver and Seattle


Makanakis
04-06-2017, 07:39 AM
Norwegian to launch new low-cost flights to Seattle and Denver (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/norwegian-launch-new-low-cost-flights-seattle-denver/)


Das Auto
05-17-2017, 05:21 PM
Norwegian to launch new low-cost flights to Seattle and Denver (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/norwegian-launch-new-low-cost-flights-seattle-denver/)

I wonder if they'll offer positions for U.S. pilots based out of Denver and Seattle like they're advertising for now out of Ft. Lauderdale.

$40,000 3 year training bond and for the 787. :eek:

velosnow
05-17-2017, 06:36 PM
Imma go picket DEN on my days off.


NEDude
05-17-2017, 08:42 PM
Imma go picket DEN on my days off.

I am sure that will be highly effective...

captjns
05-18-2017, 06:14 AM
Imma go picket DEN on my days off.

Selfies of you and your fellow picketers... Facebook:rolleyes:

WHACKMASTER
05-18-2017, 09:13 AM
I am sure that will be highly effective...

Okay, then we'll just sit back and continue to let this cancer spread. Maybe you're okay with the destruction of quality aviation jobs in the States, but we're not. In other words......go pound sand, already. :cool:

NEDude
05-18-2017, 11:09 AM
Okay, then we'll just sit back and continue to let this cancer spread. Maybe you're okay with the destruction of quality aviation jobs in the States, but we're not. In other words......go pound sand, already. :cool:

Says the man who flew for that industry leader Air Tran...

captjns
05-18-2017, 12:12 PM
Okay, then we'll just sit back and continue to let this cancer spread. Maybe you're okay with the destruction of quality aviation jobs in the States, but we're not. In other words......go pound sand, already. :cool:

Way too many drama queens on APC:eek:

WHACKMASTER
05-18-2017, 01:08 PM
Says the man who flew for that industry leader Air Tran...

Yeah, and very actively participated in the union to make it a better place with a better contract. Says the man who continuously makes excuses for a carrier that has a $40,000 training bond and is offering B787 Cptns $110,000 and 10 days off a month.

I assume you're actively participating in the effort to raise the bar at WOW Air?

NEDude
05-18-2017, 08:25 PM
Yeah, and very actively participated in the union to make it a better place with a better contract. Says the man who continuously makes excuses for a carrier that has a $40,000 training bond and is offering B787 Cptns $110,000 and 10 days off a month.

I assume you're actively participating in the effort to raise the bar at WOW Air?

I am not the one grandstanding about "the destruction of quality aviation jobs in the States", that would be you (while pay and benefits have been on the rise for the past five or six years...). You took a job with a lower level company with sub par pay and working conditions and are now being critical of others who might do the same. Why was it okay for you to take that job in the first place? What excuse did you use to make yourself feel better about undercutting the pay and work rules at the established legacy airlines when accepting the job with the remnants of Valujet?

As for me and WOW Air, no, in my six months with them I have not done anything yet "to raise the bar". But then again I am not the one complaining here, you are.

WHACKMASTER
05-18-2017, 10:22 PM
I am not the one grandstanding about "the destruction of quality aviation jobs in the States", that would be you (while pay and benefits have been on the rise for the past five or six years...). You took a job with a lower level company with sub par pay and working conditions and are now being critical of others who might do the same. Why was it okay for you to take that job in the first place? What excuse did you use to make yourself feel better about undercutting the pay and work rules at the established legacy airlines when accepting the job with the remnants of Valujet?

As for me and WOW Air, no, in my six months with them I have not done anything yet "to raise the bar". But then again I am not the one complaining here, you are.

My "excuse" for accepting the job was the year 2002. Ya know....that one right after 2001 when "The Lost Decade" started?

Let's cut the chit. Stop making excuses for/championing the pseudo-scab outfit that is NAI and pretending like it doesn't have the potential to decimate many of the airline jobs in the States with quality T&Cs.

NEDude
05-19-2017, 12:21 AM
My "excuse" for accepting the job was the year 2002. Ya know....that one right after 2001 when "The Lost Decade" started?

Let's cut the chit. Stop making excuses for/championing the pseudo-scab outfit that is NAI and pretending like it doesn't have the potential to decimate many of the airline jobs in the States with quality T&Cs.

Ah, so if it works out best for you to take a job at a "pseudo-scab outfit" (one that had a ton of Eastern scabs), bottom feeder airline, with poor wages and benefits, then it is okay. But nobody else can do it. You know you always had the option of not taking the job. Back in 2001 and 2002 I sold cars instead of taking a job at Freedom Air. You could have held yourself to a higher standard and done something else instead of lowering the bar by taking that job. But no, you wanted to get yourself into the cockpit and took a job that undercut the wages and quality of life at the legacy airlines. Your pay at Air Tran directly contributed to Delta pilots taking a 30%+ pay cut in 2004 and you have the gall to get on here and lecture others about "decimating many of the airline jobs in the States with quality T&Cs". You need to take a good, honest look in the mirror before you cast stones in your glass house.

Here is some reading material for you:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

WHACKMASTER
05-19-2017, 05:22 AM
Ah, so if it works out best for you to take a job at a "pseudo-scab outfit" (one that had a ton of Eastern scabs), bottom feeder airline, with poor wages and benefits, then it is okay. But nobody else can do it. You know you always had the option of not taking the job. Back in 2001 and 2002 I sold cars instead of taking a job at Freedom Air. You could have held yourself to a higher standard and done something else instead of lowering the bar by taking that job. But no, you wanted to get yourself into the cockpit and took a job that undercut the wages and quality of life at the legacy airlines. Your pay at Air Tran directly contributed to Delta pilots taking a 30%+ pay cut in 2004 and you have the gall to get on here and lecture others about "decimating many of the airline jobs in the States with quality T&Cs". You need to take a good, honest look in the mirror before you cast stones in your glass house.

Here is some reading material for you:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

For the record when I joined AT it had a LOT less (by percentage) scabs than say.....Continental, not to make excuses for their past actions.

If you were to ask those that have know me for a while, I have done more to raise the bar for the profession than lower it, and that's been through union work. Specifically being the vice-chairman and chairman of a committee that was very active during contract negotiations and also traveled to help other airlines during their contract negotiations.

I've also participated in an extended strike early in my career and have walked the line with other airlines when they struck/picketed not to mention having come close to losing my job because only a handful of us were sticking our necks out by "flying by the book/contract". So if you think that you're going to shame me into believing that I've personally done more harm than good for our profession then you're dead wrong.

The difference is that you continually make excuses for the NAI business model instead of acknowledging that the bar needs to be raised instead of lowered. It's obvious that you have a personal vendetta against the U.S. airlines/airline industry.

NEDude
05-19-2017, 05:48 AM
For the record when I joined AT it had a LOT less (by percentage) scabs than say.....Continental, not to make excuses for their past actions.

If you were to ask those that have know me for a while, I have done more to raise the bar for the profession than lower it, and that's been through union work. Specifically being the vice-chairman and chairman of a committee that was very active during contract negotiations and also traveled to help other airlines during their contract negotiations.

I've also participated in an extended strike early in my career and have walked the line with other airlines when they struck/picketed not to mention having come close to losing my job because only a handful of us were sticking our necks out by "flying by the book/contract". So if you think that you're going to shame me into believing that I've personally done more harm than good for our profession then you're dead wrong.

The difference is that you continually make excuses for the NAI business model instead of acknowledging that the bar needs to be raised instead of lowered. It's obvious that you have a personal vendetta against the U.S. airlines/airline industry.

Spin it any way you want to make yourself feel better. But you took a job at a bottom feeder airline and directly contributed to pilots at a legacy airline taking a 30% pay cut. And now you are scolding others who may think about taking a job that might work for them. The "H-word" perfectly applies.

WHACKMASTER
05-19-2017, 06:19 AM
Spin it any way you want to make yourself feel better. But you took a job at a bottom feeder airline and directly contributed to pilots at a legacy airline taking a 30% pay cut. And now you are scolding others who may think about taking a job that might work for them. The "H-word" perfectly applies.

I'm not "spinning it". There were no Legacies hiring in 2002 a year after 9/11 when I went to AT. Just like I don't agree with slamming guys that went to the ME3 during the lost decade when they got furloughed or RJ pilots that went there when none of the Legacies were hiring.

The professional pilot market and airline business is finally doing well in this country and then along comes Norwegian dumping absurdly cheap seats on the lucrative trans-Atlantic market which is killing the yields of DLA, UAL, & AMR and you expect us not to be upset about it, or the fact that there's idiots willing to pay 40K to go fly a B787 for 110K/10 days off?

Newsflash: We're going to continue fighting them as long as they continue to expand into this country. I just don't understand why you're so surprised at this, but quite frankly don't care either. Carry on.....

NEDude
05-19-2017, 07:13 AM
I'm not "spinning it". There were no Legacies hiring in 2002 a year after 9/11 when I went to AT. Just like I don't agree with slamming guys that went to the ME3 during the lost decade when they got furloughed or RJ pilots that went there when none of the Legacies were hiring.

The professional pilot market and airline business is finally doing well in this country and then along comes Norwegian dumping absurdly cheap seats on the lucrative trans-Atlantic market which is killing the yields of DLA, UAL, & AMR and you expect us not to be upset about it, or the fact that there's idiots willing to pay 40K to go fly a B787 for 110K/10 days off?

Newsflash: We're going to continue fighting them as long as they continue to expand into this country. I just don't understand why you're so surprised at this, but quite frankly don't care either. Carry on.....

You seem to care quite a bit...

You have ZERO standing to sit and lecture other pilots about trying to raise the bar when YOU directly contributed to Delta pilots losing 30% of their pay. I had friends that went to Southwest in the 2002/2003 time frame, you could have waited for Southwest. You could have gone and sold cars for a little while. You could have gone back to school. You could have done dozens of other things. But you chose to lower the bar and hurt pilots at legacy airlines by going to a scab infested, low cost, bottom feeder.

Feel free to keep fighting Norwegian. Your efforts have shown tremendous success so far. In fact they have been so successful Norwegian have announced Denver and Seattle as new destinations. But with your own selfish history of undercutting the pay and working conditions at legacy airlines, you have ZERO credibility to get up on your soapbox and lecture others.

captjns
05-19-2017, 07:50 AM
Think about it.... right in you own backyard... DAL, UAL, and AA are outsourcing your jobs. Although they call it codesharing. Why put a high dollar labor, with their own metal, on a routes to the Far East when they can outsource, er I mean codeshare the same seat for perhaps 75% of the cost and profit from it? Wait there's more... some of these outsourced/codeshare carriers have low wages with no benefits and may even require training bonds too:eek:. Haven't seen any picketing in ATL, ORD, or DFW or headquarters for unfair labor practices.

velosnow
05-19-2017, 11:36 AM
Selfies of you and your fellow picketers... Facebook:rolleyes:

Some of you need to learn sarcasm.

Denti
05-19-2017, 10:27 PM
I don't see how they risk your jobs more than even lower paying european carriers. Like for example Air Serbia, Open Skies, LOT and so on. Remember, the open skies agreement gives every EU carrier pretty much unrestricted traffic rights into the US, however, unlike for US carriers in the EU, no intra-US traffic rights.

Of course their flag of convenience scheme is directly threatening european carriers, but those do not picket their LGW base or any other base for that matter. After all, NAI as a part of the Norwegian group is just a latecomer to the market, the T&Cs have been already destroyed by the likes of Ryanair, Wizzair und in some parts Easyjet, not to mention pure pay to fly airlines like Air Baltic (which could fly that way into the US tomorrow if they want to).

NEDude
05-19-2017, 10:51 PM
I don't see how they risk your jobs more than even lower paying european carriers. Like for example Air Serbia, Open Skies, LOT and so on. Remember, the open skies agreement gives every EU carrier pretty much unrestricted traffic rights into the US, however, unlike for US carriers in the EU, no intra-US traffic rights.

Of course their flag of convenience scheme is directly threatening european carriers, but those do not picket their LGW base or any other base for that matter. After all, NAI as a part of the Norwegian group is just a latecomer to the market, the T&Cs have been already destroyed by the likes of Ryanair, Wizzair und in some parts Easyjet, not to mention pure pay to fly airlines like Air Baltic (which could fly that way into the US tomorrow if they want to).

The so-called "flag of convenience" scheme, as ALPA likes to call it, is regularly used in Europe, and by airlines which have long held U.S. DOT approval. Thomas Cook, a U.K. company, owns subsidiaries, with their own separate AOCs, in Belgium, Germany and Denmark. Nobody in the U.S. is trying to picket them. Lufthansa owns subsidiaries, with their own AOCs, in Belgium (Brussels Airlines), Austria (Austrian) and Switzerland (Swiss and Edelweiss). Nobody is picketing them. Another Lufthansa subsidiary, Eurowings, is operating low cost operations across the Atlantic and paying its wide body pilots 25% less than Norwegian is paying. Where is the outrage over that? SAS used to operate as four separate AOCs, SAS Denmark, SAS Sweden, SAS Braathens (Norway) and SAS International. I do not recall seeing any "flag of convenience" accusations hurled at them before they combined in 2009.

Denti
05-19-2017, 11:09 PM
The so-called "flag of convenience" scheme, as ALPA likes to call it, is regularly used in Europe, and by airlines which have long held U.S. DOT approval. Thomas Cook, a U.K. company, owns subsidiaries, with their own separate AOCs, in Belgium, Germany and Denmark. Nobody in the U.S. is trying to picket them. Lufthansa owns subsidiaries, with their own AOCs, in Belgium (Brussels Airlines), Austria (Austrian) and Switzerland (Swiss and Edelweiss). Nobody is picketing them. Another Lufthansa subsidiary, Eurowings, is operating low cost operations across the Atlantic and paying its wide body pilots 25% less than Norwegian is paying. Where is the outrage over that? SAS used to operate as four separate AOCs, SAS Denmark, SAS Sweden, SAS Braathens (Norway) and SAS International. I do not recall seeing any "flag of convenience" accusations hurled at them before they combined in 2009.

I see quite a difference to norwegian though. All those carriers used contracts in their respective countries for their employees. And for example Thomas Cook and its subsidiaries, they did have quite a different history, take their german subsidiary for example, which at one point was a joint venture between Lufthansa and Neckermann (which was later aquired by Thomas Cook) and still pays full Lufthansa salaries for their pilots, well, part of them anyway. Not quite the same as Norwegian.

Once i inquired with NAI for a job on their 787, i got a contract which had the contract state as Singapore and i would have been officially based in Bangkok, however, most of my downtime would have actually been in scandinavia or the UK, circumnavigating their labour laws. And in my view that is actually a big issue. But yes, Wizzair uses a similar program for their contractors, where they are based in some eastern european country, but their contract state is Switzerland.

However i do see that mainly as an EU problem, and one of the big problems with the EU at the moment that employers do get a lot of freedom, trade unions and employer representation however do not get anything like that. There is a huge imbalance of negotiating power and contract enforcement.

Typhoonpilot
05-19-2017, 11:45 PM
Think about it.... right in you own backyard... DAL, UAL, and AA are outsourcing your jobs. Although they call it codesharing. Why put a high dollar labor, with their own metal, on a routes to the Far East when they can outsource, er I mean codeshare the same seat for perhaps 75% of the cost and profit from it? Wait there's more... some of these outsourced/codeshare carriers have low wages with no benefits and may even require training bonds too:eek:. Haven't seen any picketing in ATL, ORD, or DFW or headquarters for unfair labor practices.


Bingo!!, we have a winner :)

Glenntilton
05-19-2017, 11:56 PM
Give to the PAC.

Das Auto
05-20-2017, 04:20 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know the pay scale for European based 737 and 787 pilots?

Denti
05-20-2017, 05:41 AM
Out of interest, does anyone know the pay scale for European based 737 and 787 pilots?

Depends a lot. I think 787 are being flown by Norwegian, British Airways and LOT, did i miss someone? Anyway, those three are very diverse companies with very different pay scales. As far as i know BA does not have an aircraft dependent pay scale, but there is a difference in pay in shorthaul or longhaul. No idea about LOT, apart from what you can see on PPJN. And i guess you know what Norwegian pays.

737 is even more different, from LCCs to legacy airlines there are huge differences in T&Cs. Although most bigger legacies have switched from the 737 to A320s, with the noted excemption of KLM, SAS (not entirely sure) and Turkish if you call that european, i dont. There are very horrible T&Cs, and extremely good ones, for example KLM.

The pay structure is quite often very different from the way it is done in the US, many carriers do have a base pay that includes a certain number of hours and beyond that overtime pay which is to a different rate, however, pretty much every carrier has its own pay structure and they are usually not that easy to compare.

Das Auto
05-20-2017, 07:01 AM
Depends a lot. I think 787 are being flown by Norwegian, British Airways and LOT, did i miss someone? Anyway, those three are very diverse companies with very different pay scales. As far as i know BA does not have an aircraft dependent pay scale, but there is a difference in pay in shorthaul or longhaul. No idea about LOT, apart from what you can see on PPJN. And i guess you know what Norwegian pays.

737 is even more different, from LCCs to legacy airlines there are huge differences in T&Cs. Although most bigger legacies have switched from the 737 to A320s, with the noted excemption of KLM, SAS (not entirely sure) and Turkish if you call that european, i dont. There are very horrible T&Cs, and extremely good ones, for example KLM.

The pay structure is quite often very different from the way it is done in the US, many carriers do have a base pay that includes a certain number of hours and beyond that overtime pay which is to a different rate, however, pretty much every carrier has its own pay structure and they are usually not that easy to compare.

I was referring to Norwegian specifically. Just interested in how their 737 and 787 compensation in the U.K. compares to what they're offering here in the U.S.

I guess health insurance won't be necessary at the U.K. bases with the national health service.

NEDude
05-20-2017, 10:11 AM
Depends a lot. I think 787 are being flown by Norwegian, British Airways and LOT, did i miss someone? Anyway, those three are very diverse companies with very different pay scales. As far as i know BA does not have an aircraft dependent pay scale, but there is a difference in pay in shorthaul or longhaul. No idea about LOT, apart from what you can see on PPJN. And i guess you know what Norwegian pays.

737 is even more different, from LCCs to legacy airlines there are huge differences in T&Cs. Although most bigger legacies have switched from the 737 to A320s, with the noted excemption of KLM, SAS (not entirely sure) and Turkish if you call that european, i dont. There are very horrible T&Cs, and extremely good ones, for example KLM.

The pay structure is quite often very different from the way it is done in the US, many carriers do have a base pay that includes a certain number of hours and beyond that overtime pay which is to a different rate, however, pretty much every carrier has its own pay structure and they are usually not that easy to compare.

KLM, Thompson, TUI Netherlands, Air Europa, Air Austral and Virgin Atlantic also operate the 787 in Europe.

SAS has 737s based in ARN and OSL, and the A320 family based in Copenhagen.

KLM has its low cost, alter ego company, Transavia (which also maintains two AOCs - one in France and one in the Netherlands) which is an all 737 operator.

NEDude
05-20-2017, 10:19 AM
I was referring to Norwegian specifically. Just interested in how their 737 and 787 compensation in the U.K. compares to what they're offering here in the U.S.

I guess health insurance won't be necessary at the U.K. bases with the national health service.

Based off of the last update I got from them for the 787:

LGW based, but residing outside the UK, or CDG, AMS, BCN bases-

TRI €12,600/month ($14,117 USD)
Line Captain €10,500 ($11,764 USD)
Relief Captain €8,400 ($9,411 USD)
FO €6,300 ($7,058 USD)

LGW based UK residents are still paid in GBP. Exchange rate is based on today.

Also note that after three years you are moved to the OSM contract which both pays more and has a lower over time threshold, so it is easier to get overtime pay each month. My neighbor who flies for Norwegian and has moved to the OSM contract is quite happy.

*Found the Rishworth Briefing for UK pilots based in LGW:

Captains 8,716GBP ($11,361USD)
Relief Captains 6,973GBP ($9,089USD)
First Officers 5,230GBP ($6,817USD)

Denti
05-20-2017, 09:21 PM
KLM, Thompson, TUI Netherlands, Air Europa, Air Austral and Virgin Atlantic also operate the 787 in Europe.

SAS has 737s based in ARN and OSL, and the A320 family based in Copenhagen.

KLM has its low cost, alter ego company, Transavia (which also maintains two AOCs - one in France and one in the Netherlands) which is an all 737 operator.

Thanks NED, didn't know about TUI Netherlands, Air Europe and Air Austral and forgot the other ones.

Yes, thats why i thought i had seen SAS 737s, but it's been some time since i was in ARN and we do not serve OSL anymore, but i have been a lot in CPH, that probably skewed my impression.

sflpilot
06-05-2017, 05:17 PM
I wonder if they'll offer positions for U.S. pilots based out of Denver and Seattle like they're advertising for now out of Ft. Lauderdale.

$40,000 3 year training bond and for the 787. :eek:

Is it a training contract or structured more like pay for training?

baseball
06-06-2017, 08:52 PM
It's all about honoring the profession as a whole. Pay physicians what they are worth and what their knowledge, training, sacrifice, stress, and skills demand. Professional Aviation is no different. Seems to me NAI doesn't want to pay pilots what they are worth. The profession not only suffers in the USA, but it also is a drag globallly. It's all about lowering the cost of a pilot (management pov). Time to raise the bar...... and keep raising it.

baseball
06-06-2017, 08:58 PM
Give to the PAC.

It would have been more wise to insure Obama didn't get that second term. Seems like it had a similar effect on the profession as John Prater did with his age 65 fiasco.

ALPA needs to either play the game differently, or stop playing it. No bueano politically speaking. ALPA's wheel house is scope, contract enforcement, safety, security, tool box, and financial/contractural analysis.

Grumble
06-07-2017, 02:45 PM
It would have been more wise to insure Obama didn't get that second term. Seems like it had a similar effect on the profession as John Prater did with his age 65 fiasco.

ALPA needs to either play the game differently, or stop playing it. No bueano politically speaking. ALPA's wheel house is scope, contract enforcement, safety, security, tool box, and financial/contractural analysis.


Disagree. No one else is going to take this fight to the hill for us. Maybe it's time for PAC participation to increase and give them the tools (money) to start punching in our weight class. Would $50/paycheck really even be noticeable for you? $20?

baseball
06-08-2017, 06:31 PM
Disagree. No one else is going to take this fight to the hill for us. Maybe it's time for PAC participation to increase and give them the tools (money) to start punching in our weight class. Would $50/paycheck really even be noticeable for you? $20?
I don't think PAC is the answer. You could donate 1k per paycheck. Same result.

NEDude
06-22-2017, 06:16 AM
Add Buenos Aires to the list now:

On sale now: the first budget flights from London to Buenos Aires (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/south-america/argentina/buenos-aires/articles/new-budget-flights-to-buenos-aires-norwegian/)

The picketing is working well...

METO Guido
06-23-2017, 06:49 AM
Adding long expensive routes with new equipment out of new bases staffed with new hires can't be cheap, training bonds notwithstanding. 1st quarter losses totaling 117m USD, is that correct? European legacies haven't gone away after a decade of full-on LCC incursions. US counterparts being far more price/cost competitive. Please explain to an admittedly slow learner how this pays out with no confederate providing domestic feed?

Jaded N Cynical
06-23-2017, 09:57 AM
Add Buenos Aires to the list now:

On sale now: the first budget flights from London to Buenos Aires (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/south-america/argentina/buenos-aires/articles/new-budget-flights-to-buenos-aires-norwegian/)

The picketing is working well...

Cheer lead all you want, the operation still sucks, isn't making money and can't attract QUALITY pilots. NAI is a cancer to aviation. A pilot who knows his worth would never apply there, AND pay a huge training bond for it.

captjns
06-23-2017, 11:55 AM
Cheer lead all you want, the operation still sucks, isn't making money and can't attract QUALITY pilots. NAI is a cancer to aviation. A pilot who knows his worth would never apply there, AND pay a huge training bond for it.


Step up to the plate and provide proof of your statement. Are you part of the CV review committee at NAI? About quality of pilots Jaded, provide this forum with facts on the credentials of pilots who may have or are considering signing on. Otherwise Jaded in your case ignorance isn't bliss.

awax
06-23-2017, 12:02 PM
Otherwise Jaded in your case ignorance isn't bliss.

You're only lying to yourself.

A 3 year training bond for a job that pays half (or less) of industry standard rates, clearly NAI is attracting the best and brightest. :rolleyes:

Caveman
06-23-2017, 12:13 PM
FX, UPS, DL, UA, AA, SWA...have raised the bar of compensation and benefits for the professional pilots across ALL segments of the aviation labor pool.

What have the pilots of the NAI scheme done to support those efforts?

I said it in the other thread, look no further than the current employers of the supporters of NAI on these and other forums.

RJSAviator76
06-24-2017, 04:33 AM
Let's just keep it simple...

Friends don't let friends fly B-787 for 110k/year and 10 days off a month... Stop and think about that for a minute. A brand new, first year 737 FO at Southwest can make that pretty easily in his first year.

At this point, there is simply no need for any American to go work for NAI. If you want to work for a foreign company, PLENTY of them pay far better than NAI...

NAI is a stepping stone for many European pilots who do just that - get their time, and bolt off to the sandbox or Asia where the pay is more up to par.

METO Guido
06-24-2017, 06:20 AM
At this point, there is simply no need for any American to go work for NAI. If you want to work for a foreign company, PLENTY of them pay far better than NAI...

NAI is a stepping stone for many European pilots who do just that - get their time, and bolt off to the sandbox or Asia where the pay is more up to par.


That's just it, you don't have to risk posing with a newspaper on Al Jazeera or dining on goat by moving to sandbox city. Does 110K on a Dreamliner sound better than 70K flying 80 legs a month for C&P regional? The universe is equally indifferent to gnashing of teeth and BB browbeating. If NAI can staff their expansion & manage to pay for it by generating sufficient traffic at break-even or better pricing, they survive to earn another day. The flag of convenience dog didn't hunt. As far as legal challenges go, seems imperative to hold on to whatever air freedom protections remain effective.

NEDude
06-24-2017, 07:07 AM
FX, UPS, DL, UA, AA, SWA...have raised the bar of compensation and benefits for the professional pilots across ALL segments of the aviation labor pool.

What have the pilots of the NAI scheme done to support those efforts?

I said it in the other thread, look no further than the current employers of the supporters of NAI on these and other forums.

Actually you said "Look no further than the current places of employment for the supporters and defenders of NAI in this thread. That should tell you all you need to know about the NAI scheme."

I would still like an answer as to how my employment with an Icelandic airline will tell you anything about how NAI is set up.

NEDude
06-24-2017, 07:10 AM
Let's just keep it simple...

Friends don't let friends fly B-787 for 110k/year and 10 days off a month... Stop and think about that for a minute. A brand new, first year 737 FO at Southwest can make that pretty easily in his first year.

At this point, there is simply no need for any American to go work for NAI. If you want to work for a foreign company, PLENTY of them pay far better than NAI...

NAI is a stepping stone for many European pilots who do just that - get their time, and bolt off to the sandbox or Asia where the pay is more up to par.

NAI may be a stepping stone for some younger guys, but it has also been a career destination for many pilots, or a return to home after years in the Middle East or Asia. I have mentioned before that I have an acquaintance who is an A330/A340 captain for SAS who had applied to Norwegian.

captjns
06-24-2017, 03:34 PM
You're only lying to yourself.

A 3 year training bond for a job that pays half (or less) of industry standard rates, clearly NAI is attracting the best and brightest. :rolleyes:

I suppose the same can be said that of AA DAL, Alaska, and Soutwest:rolleyes:.

EXPAT1
06-25-2017, 12:16 AM
In the future as I understand it these pilots could Unionize under US labor law as they are based in the US. This was one of the main reasons Cathay Pacific discontinued much of their cargo expansion in the US and used Canadian bases instead. It might be a good chance to get in on the ground floor if it ever goes seniority based. Any new company will have issues in the beginning but 20 years later can be drastically different. You have to look no further than FedEX, Southwest, UPS and others to see how things can change and get better with time. All you can do is make an educated guess at who will be the long standing survivor and winner. My bet is on LCCs and nothing is stopping Jet Blue, Spirit, Southwest or Alaska group from jumping into these North Atlantic markets using a similar LCC model.

Denti
06-25-2017, 12:24 AM
My bet is on LCCs and nothing is stopping Jet Blue, Spirit, Southwest or Alaska group from jumping into these North Atlantic markets using a similar LCC model.

Exactly, they do will have the same benefit of new technology planes and can compete on what was formerly known as longhaul flying. They might have to do it with three pilots instead of two, and might not have the benefit of the €1500/month 80 hour FO, but as they are a known quantity in the US they will have their userbase to draw from.

To be honest, as a legacy carrier we currently evaluate opering east coast flights back to back with one crew of three pilots, which is more economical than two crews of two pilots for both flights. Not to mention that it cuts out the timezone difference.

intrepidcv11
06-25-2017, 09:26 AM
Exactly, they do will have the same benefit of new technology planes and can compete on what was formerly known as longhaul flying. They might have to do it with three pilots instead of two, and might not have the benefit of the €1500/month 80 hour FO, but as they are a known quantity in the US they will have their userbase to draw from.

To be honest, as a legacy carrier we currently evaluate opering east coast flights back to back with one crew of three pilots, which is more economical than two crews of two pilots for both flights. Not to mention that it cuts out the timezone difference.

1) Three man crew blocks a first class seat on every flight. On the razor thin margin transcon market that is a crud idea.

2) Please tell me what pilot group is going to support such a massive manpower negative move?

Sounds like some peon middle manager thinks he's got a great idea. He doesn't...

Denti
06-25-2017, 09:54 AM
1) Three man crew blocks a first class seat on every flight. On the razor thin margin transcon market that is a crud idea.

2) Please tell me what pilot group is going to support such a massive manpower negative move?

Sounds like some peon middle manager thinks he's got a great idea. He doesn't...


1) No first class seat, at most it would block a business seat. However, it could just block a container position for the crew bunks. On newer designs like the 787 or A350 it wouldn't block anything, the crew rest area is above the passenger cabin anyway.

2) It is not in those stages, but currently our CLA and regulatory rules would not prevent that. And there is even a case to be made for the flight crew, as it gives a huge amount of hours in a short time, no timezone difference therefore no jetlag problem, and rest time at home instead of the same old hotel somewhere in the outskirts.

intrepidcv11
06-27-2017, 05:18 PM
1) No first class seat, at most it would block a business seat. However, it could just block a container position for the crew bunks. On newer designs like the 787 or A350 it wouldn't block anything, the crew rest area is above the passenger cabin anyway.

2) It is not in those stages, but currently our CLA and regulatory rules would not prevent that. And there is even a case to be made for the flight crew, as it gives a huge amount of hours in a short time, no timezone difference therefore no jetlag problem, and rest time at home instead of the same old hotel somewhere in the outskirts.

Okay at this point it's fair to ask what 'legacy' and 'east bound flights' are you talking about? Clearly there is a language barrier here.

WHACKMASTER
06-28-2017, 11:26 AM
I am sure that will be highly effective...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/27/house-panel-votes-clip-wings-future-airline-deals-like-norwegian/430457001/

Looks like it was :rolleyes:

NEDude
06-29-2017, 01:02 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/06/27/house-panel-votes-clip-wings-future-airline-deals-like-norwegian/430457001/

Looks like it was :rolleyes:

And yet they are still flying and expanding service...

This does nothing to Norwegian.

Also, just remember that these deals are reciprocal. The U.S. has to play by the rules as well. Let's see what happens when this gets turned around on the U.S. airlines. Only two weeks of vacation, health insurance coverage has to be paid by the employee, no guaranteed pension plan. The U.S. does quite a bit to undercut labour standards of the rest of the first world.

NAI does not have Singapore flight crew and has ZERO employees based in Bangkok, contrary to what ALPA tells you. Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS) has Bangkok crews. But NAS is registered in Norway, and everything is fully compliant with Norwegian labour law. So this proposed legislation would have ZERO effect on the things ALPA is complaining about. Remember ALPA claims that the Bangkok employees are allowed because of NAI being registered in Ireland, but the two are not connected.

Lastly, will this attempt to block Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Aer Lingus, Thomas Cook Scandinavia and others? They are all registered outside the country of their majority shareholders and thus play under different labour laws.

Typhoonpilot
06-29-2017, 01:10 AM
The other thing written into this law is privatization of ATC. Thanks ALPA for helping to increase the cost of GA in America :mad:

METO Guido
06-29-2017, 04:27 AM
The other thing written into this law is privatization of ATC. Thanks ALPA for helping to increase the cost of GA in America :mad:
Yes, it's a rider and not an ideal measure to address the problem. It is however bipartisan acknowledgement the deny effort has traction. Encouraging.

Was in DAY not long ago. Used to be called little Detroit. Heartbreaking. The state I'm from used to own textiles and furniture, toast. So we already know a country conceding the durable goods side of GNP is weakening. Would be nice to think air transportation won't be next.

ItnStln
06-29-2017, 05:57 AM
And yet they are still flying and expanding service...

This does nothing to Norwegian.

Also, just remember that these deals are reciprocal. The U.S. has to play by the rules as well. Let's see what happens when this gets turned around on the U.S. airlines. Only two weeks of vacation, health insurance coverage has to be paid by the employee, no guaranteed pension plan. The U.S. does quite a bit to undercut labour standards of the rest of the first world.

NAI does not have Singapore flight crew and has ZERO employees based in Bangkok, contrary to what ALPA tells you. Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS) has Bangkok crews. But NAS is registered in Norway, and everything is fully compliant with Norwegian labour law. So this proposed legislation would have ZERO effect on the things ALPA is complaining about. Remember ALPA claims that the Bangkok employees are allowed because of NAI being registered in Ireland, but the two are not connected.

Lastly, will this attempt to block Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Aer Lingus, Thomas Cook Scandinavia and others? They are all registered outside the country of their majority shareholders and thus play under different labour laws.Considering Swiss, Austrian, and Brussels Airlines are owned by Lufthansa, that's a great point!

Jaded N Cynical
06-29-2017, 06:48 AM
And yet they are still flying and expanding service...

This does nothing to Norwegian.

Also, just remember that these deals are reciprocal. The U.S. has to play by the rules as well. Let's see what happens when this gets turned around on the U.S. airlines. Only two weeks of vacation, health insurance coverage has to be paid by the employee, no guaranteed pension plan. The U.S. does quite a bit to undercut labour standards of the rest of the first world.

NAI does not have Singapore flight crew and has ZERO employees based in Bangkok, contrary to what ALPA tells you. Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS) has Bangkok crews. But NAS is registered in Norway, and everything is fully compliant with Norwegian labour law. So this proposed legislation would have ZERO effect on the things ALPA is complaining about. Remember ALPA claims that the Bangkok employees are allowed because of NAI being registered in Ireland, but the two are not connected.

Lastly, will this attempt to block Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, Aer Lingus, Thomas Cook Scandinavia and others? They are all registered outside the country of their majority shareholders and thus play under different labour laws.

Says the ALPA hater

NEDude
06-29-2017, 08:01 AM
Says the ALPA hater

Not an ALPA hater. I have spent many years as a dues paying member and was on an ALPA organizing committee. I just have the ability to recognize when they are wrong. Perhaps you should develop that ability too, instead of blindly following the propaganda. Or does that take too much effort?

Jaded N Cynical
06-29-2017, 09:11 AM
Not an ALPA hater. I have spent many years as a dues paying member and was on an ALPA organizing committee. I just have the ability to recognize when they are wrong. Perhaps you should develop that ability too, instead of blindly following the propaganda. Or does that take too much effort?

I'm concentrating my 'effort' on blocking schemes like NAI and others from becoming the cancer in US aviation. Career destruction of US jobs is very appealing to some, especially those living contract to contract in EU.

I give mightily to the PAC, and I'm very politically involved. I want to make sure the next generation of United States citizens have a career here. Not to some foreign national entity who shops the lowest cost pilots in the world.

METO Guido
06-29-2017, 09:52 AM
Perhaps you should develop that ability too, instead of blindly following the propaganda. Or does that take too much effort?

Propaganda? Precisely what support for this kind of unrestricted route authority is. Philosophical justification for pseudo economists & end runners alike. I see workers losing jobs. I see displaced workers seeking jobs only finding worse jobs. NAI and their ilk? Rock'em, sock'em, BLOCK'EM.

NEDude
06-29-2017, 11:37 AM
Propaganda? Precisely what support for this kind of unrestricted route authority is. Philosophical justification for pseudo economists & end runners alike. I see workers losing jobs. I see displaced workers seeking jobs only finding worse jobs. NAI and their ilk? Rock'em, sock'em, BLOCK'EM.

Continually promoting false allegations is propaganda. ALPA claims that NAI was formed so they could base pilots in Thailand through a Singapore agency. The problem is NAI is not doing any of that. And that is where the outrage is based, on those false allegations. Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS), certified, owned and based in Bærum, Norway is the company using contract crews and basing them in Thailand. NAS is in absolutely zero way, shape or form a so-called 'Flag of Convenience'. ALPA is either mixing NAI and NAS out of ignorance, which means they are sloppy, or they are doing it deliberately in an effort to get folks like you to donate money to the PAC. So yes, Propaganda with a capital "P".

METO Guido
06-29-2017, 12:24 PM
ALPA is either mixing NAI and NAS out of ignorance, which means they are sloppy, or they are doing it deliberately in an effort to get folks like you to donate money to the PAC.

To the extent PAC donations fund influence, in this case building effective legal barriers to a decidedly non-Irish, Irish carrier, that money is well spent.

Tit for tat is such a thirsty exercise. Is that why I'm here? Happy & safe Independence Day all.

Sniper66
07-07-2017, 05:47 PM
Bingo!!, we have a winner :)



American gives preferential interviews to Ex Usair pilots that hate ALPA

Give it a shot
1-800-EKLover extension BO

wmarti31
07-20-2017, 09:55 AM
Denver International Airport announces nonstop flights to Paris | FOX31 Denver (http://kdvr.com/2017/07/20/denver-international-airport-announces-nonstop-flights-to-paris/)

velosnow
07-21-2017, 11:27 PM
Denver International Airport announces nonstop flights to Paris | FOX31 Denver (http://kdvr.com/2017/07/20/denver-international-airport-announces-nonstop-flights-to-paris/)

UAL should've been all over this route years ago.

zondaracer
07-26-2017, 11:20 PM
http://newsroom.united.com/2017-07-26-Mile-High-City-Receives-Royal-Treatment-for-Uniteds-80th-Birthday-in-Denver-Nonstop-Service-Between-Denver-and-London

InThisTogether
07-27-2017, 11:39 PM
UAL should've been all over this route years ago.

Spot on. Why wasn't someone else all over these profitable routes?