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View Full Version : ASAP prisoners dilema


HeWhoRazethAll
04-09-2017, 07:59 AM
I know ASAP cannot be used against you if it's a sole source report. But how does that rule apply to OTHER ASAP reports?

Say you have a flight crew who lands without a clearance or incurs onto an active runway, or fails to level off before localizer intercept. They obviously file ASAPs. Tower never noticed the problem, or at least didn't report it. So far, this instance would be sole-source.

However, one of the pilots cites the other's "Captain's failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures", or "co-pilot's failure to properly complete before take-off checklist", or "pilot monitoring did not write down runway crossing instructions" or "captain distracted sight-seeing" as a contributing factor. Could that pilot's ASAP be used against the other pilot in company discipline (I'm sure the FAA couldn't touch them)?

A guy I know filed an ASAP for a pretty major issue. It was a failure on the PICs part (failed to brief departure, failed to complete before-takeoff-check), resulted in a screaming controller and all manner of vectoring. He filed because as part of the crew, he should've spoken up to the unsafe situation. He was hesitant to say "captain failed to blah blah blah" but at the same time, he didn't want to unintentionally assume the blame himself.

Most of the time it seems like flight crews try to conference on how to go about filing beforehand to prevent this, but surely there is something in place to prevent one ASAP being used against a fellow crewmember's.


GogglesPisano
04-09-2017, 08:07 AM
I know ASAP cannot be used against you if it's a sole source report. But how does that rule apply to OTHER ASAP reports?

Say you have a flight crew who lands without a clearance or incurs onto an active runway, or fails to level off before localizer intercept. They obviously file ASAPs. Tower never noticed the problem, or at least didn't report it. So far, this instance would be sole-source.

However, one of the pilots cites the other's "failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures", or "co-pilot's failure to properly complete checklist", or "pilot monitoring did not write down runway crossing instructions" or "captain distracted sight-seeing" as a contributing factor. Could that pilot's ASAP be used against the other pilot in company discipline (I'm sure the FAA couldn't touch them)?

A guy I know filed an ASAP for a pretty major issue. It was a failure on the PICs part (failed to brief departure, failed to complete before-takeoff-check), resulted in a screaming controller and all manner of vectoring. He filed because as part of the crew, he should've spoken up to the unsafe situation. He was hesitant to say "captain failed to blah blah blah" but at the same time, he didn't want to unintentionally assume the blame himself.

If you fill out an ASAP you're covered (unless it's one of the deadly sins: Intentional Falsification, Disregard ...) Most forms ask what you would have done differently to prevent the event in the future.

In general, it's not good form to narc on a colleague. Be honest, take your share of the blame. But don't write a novel. Be concise.

JohnBurke
04-09-2017, 12:04 PM
Be professional. State the facts.

Your report covers you.


flyingmd
04-10-2017, 10:47 AM
Filing the report does not necessarily cover you. Everyone of those examples you gave would be classified as intentional by the FAA. If you werent given a number to call I would let it go. I surely would not file a report blaming the copilot or pilot. I suspect that can and would be used against you.

JamesNoBrakes
04-10-2017, 08:03 PM
I would recommend reading the ASAP AC 120-66, it covers when the information can and can not be used, what happens to sole-source reports that are not accepted, etc.

rickair7777
04-12-2017, 10:12 AM
I would recommend reading the ASAP AC 120-66, it covers when the information can and can not be used, what happens to sole-source reports that are not accepted, etc.


What he said.

But if all is correct and both asaps are accepted then both pilots would be protected from FAA and company discipline, even if there was finger-pointing or he-said/she-said.

Where this could go horribly wrong is if one pilot did something intentionally, and the other pilot (perhaps not aware at the time) dimed him out. Then you might have one pilot excluded and one accepted.

Not doing a checklist could well be unintentional (ie forgot) but if the other pilot reported that the CA verbalized that he didn't want to do a checklist that could be bad.

Sterile violations are likely going to be intentional though, reporting that on an asap is probably going to screw the other guy. Actually both pilots will likely get interrogated while they try to figure it all out. Bad.

Best thing is to coordinate ASAPs so they don't contradict each other or risk being excluded. Don't lie but it's proper to debrief an event like this...hopefully everybody can agree on what happened. You don't HAVE to report an intentional violation on the part of the other pilot, so I don't think there's a crime of omission.

MiLtoMajor123
04-14-2017, 02:59 PM
Don't keep secrets as a crew, especially if you feel uncomfortable with actions. Be tactful in your debriefs to bring things you thought you could work on. Yes if something happens debrief after shutdown. Openly discuss things you would ASAP as a crew before doing it. Be honest, be upfront but tactful. If you feel you need ASAP as I means of correcting an Unsafe situation that you can't talk directly to your Captain or FO about....I'd argue that is beyond ASAP and warrants a call to your chief pilot and crew scheduling for reassignment. On the other hand if you are worried about hurting someones feelings (the PIC) and just ASAP as a means to get get information out there...I'd argue you need to be better at debriefing and being a better crew member. Own your mistakes....and approach everything as a crew. At the end of the day EVERYONE makes mistakes and we ALL are always learning.

Bilsch
04-15-2017, 10:31 AM
Don't keep secrets as a crew, especially if you feel uncomfortable with actions. Be tactful in your debriefs to bring things you thought you could work on. Yes if something happens debrief after shutdown. Openly discuss things you would ASAP as a crew before doing it. Be honest, be upfront but tactful. If you feel you need ASAP as I means of correcting an Unsafe situation that you can't talk directly to your Captain or FO about....I'd argue that is beyond ASAP and warrants a call to your chief pilot and crew scheduling for reassignment. On the other hand if you are worried about hurting someones feelings (the PIC) and just ASAP as a means to get get information out there...I'd argue you need to be better at debriefing and being a better crew member. Own your mistakes....and approach everything as a crew. At the end of the day EVERYONE makes mistakes and we ALL are always learning.

Great advice, however, some are not as tactful and willing to admit or learn from mistakes as you describe above. I am sure many here have run across someone whose ego has interfered with learning from a mistake/deviation.

I have seen this first hand in the VSRP environment.

Thankfully, these are a small minority.

Airlines with an active and successful SMS lead the way in ensuring for a non-punitive reporting culture.

trip
04-15-2017, 11:22 AM
It was a failure on the PICs part (failed to brief departure, failed to complete before-takeoff-check)

If this was a 2 person crew then you both failed to complete the actions.

Your're a crew, back each other up. If you pooched it up then debrief your ASAPS.

Hey Capt. you want that before take/off check?

Allegheny
04-16-2017, 06:50 AM
At an aircarrier, part 121 or 135 or other certificated holder, an ASAP program can and should come as part of an MOU, Memorandum of Understanding. Most union carriers address non sole source reporting at this stage.

At my company we had a real fight over this but the company wanted ASAP as part of a overall insurance reduction program, so they were willing, as was the FAA to accept that non-sole-source reports would be exempt from discipline or certificate action. This was with the PROVISION that the incident in question was not specifically exempt, ie. Careless Reckless, criminal or drug or alcohol related. The event in question would still have to pass the event review committee which is one union, one company, one FAA.

To date, to my knowledge, we have not had any ASAP non sole source reports result in FAA or company discipline or certificate action.

Jma313
06-28-2017, 09:55 AM
I know ASAP cannot be used against you if it's a sole source report. But how does that rule apply to OTHER ASAP reports?

Say you have a flight crew who lands without a clearance or incurs onto an active runway, or fails to level off before localizer intercept. They obviously file ASAPs. Tower never noticed the problem, or at least didn't report it. So far, this instance would be sole-source.

However, one of the pilots cites the other's "Captain's failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures", or "co-pilot's failure to properly complete before take-off checklist", or "pilot monitoring did not write down runway crossing instructions" or "captain distracted sight-seeing" as a contributing factor. Could that pilot's ASAP be used against the other pilot in company discipline (I'm sure the FAA couldn't touch them)?

A guy I know filed an ASAP for a pretty major issue. It was a failure on the PICs part (failed to brief departure, failed to complete before-takeoff-check), resulted in a screaming controller and all manner of vectoring. He filed because as part of the crew, he should've spoken up to the unsafe situation. He was hesitant to say "captain failed to blah blah blah" but at the same time, he didn't want to unintentionally assume the blame himself.

Most of the time it seems like flight crews try to conference on how to go about filing beforehand to prevent this, but surely there is something in place to prevent one ASAP being used against a fellow crewmember's.


Ive worked at an operator that punished people internally for non sole source ASAP reports. The company was warned not to do this and eventually was fined by the FAA for noncompliance. Unless you commit some of the unforgivable sins (willful non-compliance, trafficking drugs, etc) you are generally pretty safe to report. No one would ever submit a report if they thought they would get into a lot of trouble.



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