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View Full Version : Non crew in the flightdeck


Gvdriver
04-29-2017, 05:11 PM
I fly for a management company on a specific airplane that does 91/135.... i was asked by the owner to please get out of my seat and let a fellow of his to sit in the seat ( right seat) I told him no way thatveas going to happen and he said w"whaat do you mean? I have done this before and we are 91" i told him " its still not going to happen" he went to his seat quite upset ( i dont care). Its been reported to management..a d they take stuff like this seriously ..waiting to see what they are going to do about it on monday..anybody have something like this ever happen to them ?


rickair7777
04-29-2017, 05:32 PM
In 91 it might have been legal. Crew are not required to physically occupy their control station at all times and I don't recall anything in 91 prohibiting a non pilot from sitting there (what if he was getting dual given?).

Not to minimize your concern, just talking legalities.

Gvdriver
04-29-2017, 05:43 PM
In 91 it might have been legal. Crew are not required to physically occupy their control station at all times and I don't recall anything in 91 prohibiting a non pilot from sitting there (what if he was getting dual given?).

Not to minimize your concern, just talking legalities.

Actually under 91 there is a reg that prohibits a crew member from leaving his station unless nature calls.There is nothing that states that a non pilot cant sit in the pilot seat but we are talking about a high performance jet @ fl410 and the pax is a non pilot who needs more than flight instruction to sit there ..


sourdough44
04-30-2017, 03:53 AM
'Part 91', 'right seat'? No expert opinion here, but sitting right seat for a reasonable period during cruise doesn't seem real crazy. This assumes the left seater is fully qualified.

As usual, the particulars factor in. JMHO.

rickair7777
04-30-2017, 04:57 AM
Actually under 91 there is a reg that prohibits a crew member from leaving his station unless nature calls.There is nothing that states that a non pilot cant sit in the pilot seat but we are talking about a high performance jet @ fl410 and the pax is a non pilot who needs more than flight instruction to sit there ..

Physiological break could include stretching, and like you said nothing says the pax cannot sit there when the pilot is taking his break. Not suggesting it's a great idea.

But if the OP did not need a break, that would be grounds on his part to refuse to vacate the seat.

Adlerdriver
04-30-2017, 06:09 AM
I'll just leave these here....... :cool:

Tape Confirms The Pilot's Son Caused Crash Of Russian Jet - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/28/world/tape-confirms-the-pilot-s-son-caused-crash-of-russian-jet.html)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

TiredSoul
04-30-2017, 07:03 AM
Not enough info;

Type of airplane?
Phase of flight?
Qualifications of the guy in the left seat? Is he single pilot qualified?

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it if we're in cruise with nothing needing to be done such as fuel transfer or weather avoidance or anything else that requires one of us to be head down.
Want to be in VMC also in case a symbol generator/ display screen or ADC takes a dump while I'm out of my seat.
Pilots call but I think you may have overreacted a little here.

'Not right now Sir, we are working on a couple of things. I will give you a call in about 10-15 min. That OK for you? Thank you Sir'

That shows him you're not afraid to exercise your duties as PIC and gives you time to confer with the guy in the LHS. What did he have to say about it anyway?

HeavyDriver
04-30-2017, 07:38 AM
OWNER...look for another job before you have to look for another job, because your going to have another job sooner than later.

Gvdriver
04-30-2017, 07:50 AM
Not enough info;

Type of airplane?
Phase of flight?
Qualifications of the guy in the left seat? Is he single pilot qualified?

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it if we're in cruise with nothing needing to be done such as fuel transfer or weather avoidance or anything else that requires one of us to be head down.
Want to be in VMC also in case a symbol generator/ display screen or ADC takes a dump while I'm out of my seat.
Pilots call but I think you may have overreacted a little here.

'Not right now Sir, we are working on a couple of things. I will give you a call in about 10-15 min. That OK for you? Thank you Sir'

That shows him you're not afraid to exercise your duties as PIC and gives you time to confer with the guy in the LHS. What did he have to say about it anyway?

1.high performance jet
2.fl430
3.not a single pilot airplane
4.concurred with other crew

Owner has also been know for sticking his hand in the cockpit and flipping sws,opening the cabin door as we stop the airplane ( one of these day hes gona go flying out)

There was an accident in 2008 where the owner was sitting in the right seat... they found the FDR /CVR in the crater about 10ft down ...too bad we cant ask him what hewas thinking when he sat him there

TiredSoul
04-30-2017, 07:55 AM
Maybe a cop out on my part but your PIC needs to speak up here.
Or the Chief Pilot if you have one.
Issues with the owner shouldn't be yours to fight.
Then again, be diplomatic about it.
It may have been ok at that stage of the flight.
Not that it really matters but I'm assuming this is a Lear?
If the owner wants you out of the company then you're out.
That's why he's the owner.
Had nothing to do with fairness.
Just the way the cookie crumbles.
Start looking today just in case the hammer drops tomorrow.
Inappropriate doesn't always equal unsafe.

There's a rule under 135 where you're supposed to 'serve' the alcoholic beverages.
So how does that work if you can't get out of your seat?

WesternSkies
04-30-2017, 08:02 AM
Sounds like guys past behavior tips the scales.

Gvdriver
04-30-2017, 08:07 AM
FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATIONS
Home > Aviation Regulations > Parts Index > Part 91 > Sec. 91.105 - Flight crewmembers at stations.
Sec. 91.105 — Flight crewmembers at stations.

(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each required flight crewmember shall—
(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs; and

(2) Keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember station.

(b) Each required flight crewmember of a U.S.-registered civil aircraft shall, during takeoff and landing, keep his or her shoulder harness fastened while at his or her assigned duty station. This paragraph does not apply if—

TiredSoul
04-30-2017, 04:27 PM
Keeping your job counts as a physiological need...no?

Adlerdriver
04-30-2017, 05:18 PM
Another option...... fly cargo :cool:
Highly recommend.

EMAW
05-01-2017, 06:05 AM
Maybe a cop out on my part but your PIC needs to speak up here.
Or the Chief Pilot if you have one.
Issues with the owner shouldn't be yours to fight.
Then again, be diplomatic about it.
It may have been ok at that stage of the flight.
Not that it really matters but I'm assuming this is a Lear?
If the owner wants you out of the company then you're out.
That's why he's the owner.
Had nothing to do with fairness.
Just the way the cookie crumbles.
Start looking today just in case the hammer drops tomorrow.
Inappropriate doesn't always equal unsafe.

There's a rule under 135 where you're supposed to 'serve' the alcoholic beverages.
So how does that work if you can't get out of your seat?

The Feds determined that without a flight attendant, "serving" means you put it on the airplane.

TiredSoul
05-01-2017, 11:14 PM
The Feds determined that without a flight attendant, "serving" means you put it on the airplane.

Yes, and we all know what 'that' means.
Let's not get too sanctimonious.
We all know what happens out there; but is it dangerous? No, mostly not.
Yes there have been accidents ( small child stepping on the cyclic in a helicopter) essentially caused by an overbearing owner.
But reaching up and turning off a landing light is not unsafe.
Just to name an example as we don't know what he did previously.
Getting out of your seat with nothing going on, is not unsafe.
Have I gotten out of my seat ?
Oh sure and everybody has, for various reasons.
I call it customer service.

EMAW
05-03-2017, 07:56 AM
Yes, and we all know what 'that' means.
Let's not get too sanctimonious.
We all know what happens out there; but is it dangerous? No, mostly not.
Yes there have been accidents ( small child stepping on the cyclic in a helicopter) essentially caused by an overbearing owner.
But reaching up and turning off a landing light is not unsafe.
Just to name an example as we don't know what he did previously.
Getting out of your seat with nothing going on, is not unsafe.
Have I gotten out of my seat ?
Oh sure and everybody has, for various reasons.
I call it customer service.

You read too much into what I was saying. I was only commenting on the alcohol comment. As far as non-crew in the flight deck, I've only ever flew 121, 135, and 91k and all of my employers expressly prohibit this from happening.

FlyJSH
05-03-2017, 07:14 PM
Maybe a cop out on my part but your PIC needs to speak up here.
Or the Chief Pilot if you have one.
Issues with the owner shouldn't be yours to fight.
Then again, be diplomatic about it.


Here's a crazy idea...

Next time he asks you, the FO, to take your seat, why not suggest he takes the captain's seat? Then let the captain deal with it.



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