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View Full Version : Top Tier pay???


veewan
04-30-2017, 10:45 AM
Seriously how little research do they think pilots do? Have they not heard of Airline Pilot Central and the fact that everyone's pay is broken down with a tool that helps you calculate how much you will make? Not to mention some of the work rules that each airline has, and some of their incentives. At least be honest about what you are selling. We are a west coast airline with decent pay and decent work rules.

For those of you who have not looked at the other regional airline's pay scales lets start with Compass as our baseline assessment. Then see what other regionals are offering.

Compass Airlines:
First year FO: $36/hr CA: $67/hr
Second year FO: $37/hr CA:$69/hr
Third year FO: $40/hr CA:$72/hr

Staying out west, we will compare with Horizon:
First year FO: $31/hr CA: $70/hr
Second year FO: $42/hr CA:$72/hr
Third year FO: $43/hr CA:$74/hr

Next for out west, lets compare to SkyWest:
Different AC pay CRJ900/E175&CRJ 700/CRJ200
First year FO: $37/37/37 per hr CA: $67/66/62 per hr
Second year FO: $41/41/38 per hr CA:$70/69/65 per hr
Third year FO: $44/43/41 per hr CA:$73/72/68 per hr
Plus a signing bonus of $7500 paid on completion of IOE

Moving east, Envoy:
Different AC pay X/Y/Z
First year FO: $38/hr CA: $68/68/65 per hr
Second year FO: $40/hr CA:$70/70/67 per hr
Third year FO: $41/hr CA:$73/73/69 per hr
Plus a signing bonus of $22,100 AND a $20,000 retention bonus paid over the course of 2 years.
Second year FO is actually paid at year 4 pay of $42/hour

Next Air Wisconsin:
First year FO: $35/hr CA: $66/hr
Second year FO: $41/hr CA:$69/hr
Third year FO: $43/hr CA:$72/hr
Retention bonuses being offered for pilots currently on property

$33,000 sign on bonus. Highest in the industry. First installment of $15,000 to be paid upon completion of IOE. Second installment of $10,000 to be paid 12 months after completion of IOE. The remaining $8,000 is to be paid out quarterly throughout year 3 of employment as an FO.


veewan
05-01-2017, 06:14 AM
Recruiting for Compass is going to be a hard job. Who's going to come to Compass for top tier pay, when other regional airlines are paying more per hour (and bonuses​), offering similar upgrade times etc. I think at this point it's only going to be people that are interested in LAX and SEA... That don't go to SkyWest or Horizon.

TillerTemptress
05-01-2017, 01:19 PM
I think you're underestimating how many people want LAX/SEA, sadly.
Comparing to other 175 operators that aren't throwing out some huge retention bonus for a reason (ie skywest), our pay is pretty close to Skywest, minus the bonus. And the upgrade time at CPZ for west coast bases is far better than Skywest's. At Skywest it could take awhile just to hold SEA as an FO, even, their SEA CA upgrade time on the 175 is years longer than ours and will stay that way for awhile.


poorflyer
05-01-2017, 03:10 PM
That's true but there's people at Skywest getting lax and sfo in the 175 right out of training though. So it's hard for us to compete with that. I can see SEA being a bigger selling point but it's not that big of a base. If Compass gets higher attrition it will be a better choice for west coasters but it's till a risky move especially with what's been happening recently, whereas Skywest may be a more stable choice while waiting for a call from the majors while in LA.

veewan
05-01-2017, 06:38 PM
I think you're underestimating how many people want LAX/SEA, sadly.
Comparing to other 175 operators that aren't throwing out some huge retention bonus for a reason (ie skywest), our pay is pretty close to Skywest, minus the bonus. And the upgrade time at CPZ for west coast bases is far better than Skywest's. At Skywest it could take awhile just to hold SEA as an FO, even, their SEA CA upgrade time on the 175 is years longer than ours and will stay that way for awhile.

I think you may be right that I am underestimating how much people would rather have LAX/SEA. Like you say our pay itself is CLOSE, but it is not top tier.

SkyWest pays their retention bonuses in the form of pilot profit sharing. They get 4 quarterly bonuses, plus 2 pilot profit sharing checks.

Next saying pay is pretty close minus the bonus ignores how that hourly rate is paid. Or the bonuses available.

SkyWest offers trip rig of 1 hour credit for each 4 hours time away from base.

Per diem is $1.90 at other airlines vs our $1.65- for the first 24 months with an incremental step until 60 months (over the course of 24 hours that is $6) if a 4 day was away from base 74 hours, that would be $888 more per year just in per diem.

Next is deadhead, we are paying 80% vs other airlines 100% (even Trans States is paying 100% DH).

Critical pay: here it's 1.25, TSA is offering 1.5

Add in union dues and you can knock down all Compass rates by 2%. Second year FO at Compass becomes $37.74 after union dues. Which SkyWest is not paying.

Min day at SkyWest is 4.2 hours credit with a guarantee of 76 hours, which means a reserve only works 18 days (13/12 days off on reserve) vs Compass reserve min day of 3.5 hours and 75 hours guarantee getting (12/11 days off).

My point is how can we claim top teir pay when we are not paying it?

Also it tells you how management thinks if they feel what is being offered is top teir. Are they going to do what happened last time and offer a bonus when they come up short on talent, or are they going to try and do something sooner (offer to get ALPA in sooner than the amendable date)?

LGARunway44
05-01-2017, 07:27 PM
Yeah, misleading but I think one could make an argument that bonuses could be considered compensation and not necessarily in the pay category. Most of the places offering a bonus had to hit bottom before they offered said bonus. A bonus is still against the CP contract; however pay can be raised automatically whenever needed up to $41 for first year.

Endeavor alienated their FO's with the ETD program, which caused those pilots to bail at high numbers until the SSP was offered and the retention bonus. PSA started offering when recruiting became difficult, Air Wisconsin had a questionable future.

What Compass does offer is a lot of movement and only a handful of lifers. Get in, pad your resume and get out. Much more difficult to become a SLIP or LCA at the other airlines listed. Compass had incredibly high hiring practices when the Delta test was being used and most of those folks came from other airlines. Expect the attrition to continue being high for the vast majority with competitive resumes.

Including union dues in an argument vs. Skywest? Címon, sack up and learn perspective. They get most of the benefits without paying the dues. There is a reason we pay union dues and I hope you learn one day.

veewan
05-02-2017, 11:42 AM
Including union dues in an argument vs. Skywest? Címon, sack up and learn perspective. They get most of the benefits without paying the dues. There is a reason we pay union dues and I hope you learn one day.

Learn perspective? Enlighten me as to what the reason paying union dues contributes​.

Let's just say this Mesa has ALPA, what are they benefiting from it? I'm not saying a union does not help but you can't say it's the only reason a pilot group is getting paid more. By your logic Mesa pilots with a union should have better compensation than SkyWest without one.

And I think it's a fair point to include in this discussion. The question at hand is who is offering Top Tier pay.

Is Compass paying the most or not? Will a pilot make more money at Compass than other regionals​ while they wait for a call from mainline?

AirBat
05-02-2017, 01:29 PM
Your math isn't correct.
Our per diem rate is higher, take a look at your paycheck. You quoted the per diem at date of signing..
Also, we will get 100% deadhead, not yet but soon, I think it was DOS+5? Don't remember but it's in the CBA. So true that we don't have it now however very few pairings are built with much in the way of deadheads honestly.

LGARunway44
05-02-2017, 02:02 PM
Learn perspective? Enlighten me as to what the reason paying union dues contributes​.

Let's just say this Mesa has ALPA, what are they benefiting from it? I'm not saying a union does not help but you can't say it's the only reason a pilot group is getting paid more. By your logic Mesa pilots with a union should have better compensation than SkyWest without one.

And I think it's a fair point to include in this discussion. The question at hand is who is offering Top Tier pay.

Is Compass paying the most or not? Will a pilot make more money at Compass than other regionals​ while they wait for a call from mainline?

Plain and simple the only reason ALPA was created was to prevent pilot pushing. Each sick call, ASAP, and refused flight is possible because of what everyone prior had to deal with.

There are huge downfalls in terms of compensation and ALPA's involvement that regionals even exist. Compass doesn't pay top tier and I acknowledge that as well. They also aren't paying for accepting career stagnation. I earn more at Compass than I would have at my old company with a bonus.

I'm glad pay is increasing and Compass will have to pay more when they need to. Still a small company and I can't imagine they will have trouble finding 20 people a month.

To be honest i'm just sick of seeing the attitudes people have on these boards. I was really happy to get hired here and it was a good place. It wasn't always a pleasure to fly with the flow pilots but many of them had perspective that is needed here now. Stop trying to scare everyone away. This message board is a terrible representation of this pilot group.

TillerThriller
05-02-2017, 07:06 PM
You will always have people who are frustrated and happy with where they work at any company, airlines included. Just so happens frustrations are a little higher here than they were say last year. It happens even at the legacies. I have had many guys at American, Fedex, United, and Southwest say not to go their company because of certain issues. Had a Delta 11 month FO who was upgrading to captain there complaining about it there and he doesn't understand why so many people want to work there. If they have it there you can guarantee it is going to happen here. Got to make the best of the situation and keep your head up.

veewan
05-03-2017, 05:33 AM
Your math isn't correct.
Our per diem rate is higher, take a look at your paycheck. You quoted the per diem at date of signing..
Also, we will get 100% deadhead, not yet but soon, I think it was DOS+5? Don't remember but it's in the CBA. So true that we don't have it now however very few pairings are built with much in the way of deadheads honestly.

Our per diem rate is not higher, according to section 5. We are not paying $1.90 until DOS+60 months. DOS+48 months is still $1.80. The other airlines are currently paying $1.90 even to someone new on property.

Next deadhead pay does not go to 100%, according to section 8 it just went up to 85% on May 1 with no language for further increase from how I read it. You're right though that we don't spend much time in the back, but again the question is top tier pay (meaning the best) right now 100% is the best out there in the regionals. I know at UA, they pay 150% if you are booked in a middle seat, but that is a legacy.

Compass doesn't pay top tier and I acknowledge that as well. They also aren't paying for accepting career stagnation. I earn more at Compass than I would have at my old company with a bonus.

I'm glad pay is increasing and Compass will have to pay more when they need to. Still a small company and I can't imagine they will have trouble finding 20 people a month.

To be honest i'm just sick of seeing the attitudes people have on these boards. I was really happy to get hired here and it was a good place. It wasn't always a pleasure to fly with the flow pilots but many of them had perspective that is needed here now. Stop trying to scare everyone away. This message board is a terrible representation of this pilot group.

Acknowledging that we don't pay top tier is a step in the right direction. I think whoever is making the banners that pop up on APC needs to do the same, or if they would like to keep touting top tier pay execute the $41 per hour option.

As far as the attitudes, there are some which are overly negative, but I am going to borrow from what you said "it WAS a good place." Part of why people are feeling how they are is that when they were hired things were good. Now there have been changes which people are trying to process. It is no Mesa, but selling Compass as top tier pay will only further the problem you are seeing now. I think the appropriate way to market Compass to new hires is:
West coast domiciles (LAX, SEA)! Single fleet type E175. Great crews.
It's not a matter of scaring people off, if they come and find it is not what they expected they will leave. My guess is the FO attrition labeled NA accounts for that. I know there is a Compass pilot in Endeavor training.

You are correct that there needs to be perspective. The 175 is a good aircraft, the pay is decent, we have a contract and there have been no furloughs. On the other hand I think this forum is to discuss relevant issues especially for people considering an airline out of CFIing or making a switch, not about who we will get flow to, like Hawaiian as funny as that may be (also lightening the mood). So it is important to state the facts. We are talking about pay. Hopefully this discussion helps people think about what to look for in our next contract.

Air Stang 7
05-04-2017, 06:29 PM
You forgot Endeavor in the initial post. On top of real top tier pay they have a pretty solid culture too.

veewan
05-25-2017, 11:34 PM
Incredibly Mesa is offering $61k incuding bonuses​ first year. Granted it's still Mesa.

RemiDenton
07-03-2017, 11:11 AM
I'm not finding anything on bonus information on new hires. Anyone have updated information for new recruits? Jr bases still LAX and SEA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Poser765
07-03-2017, 11:26 AM
I'm not finding anything on bonus information on new hires. Anyone have updated information for new recruits? Jr bases still LAX and SEA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalkyou're night finding anything because there is nothing to find. No new hire bonus. No retention bonus. What you see is what you get.

Yes junior bases are still sea and lax... Because those are the ONLY bases. Lax is still junior to sea, though.

FlytheSky
07-03-2017, 12:57 PM
I'm not finding anything on bonus information on new hires. Anyone have updated information for new recruits? Jr bases still LAX and SEA?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

New hire bonuses aren't going to come to CPZ because of the grievance settlement the last time the company did new hire bonuses. That resulted in the higher first year FO pay and an agreement that the company wouldn't raise first year FO compensation to within 2% of 2nd year FO pay without raising the entire pay scale (which while the pilots might like, I doubt the company would do, but who knows in this environment). Retention bonuses could also be a possibility should CPZ be hurting enough to fill classes, since they're not forbidden based on the settlement ALPA and the company reached in November 2015.

Milflyer19
09-08-2017, 04:13 PM
I think you may be right that I am underestimating how much people would rather have LAX/SEA. Like you say our pay itself is CLOSE, but it is not top tier.

SkyWest pays their retention bonuses in the form of pilot profit sharing. They get 4 quarterly bonuses, plus 2 pilot profit sharing checks.

Next saying pay is pretty close minus the bonus ignores how that hourly rate is paid. Or the bonuses available.

SkyWest offers trip rig of 1 hour credit for each 4 hours time away from base.

Per diem is $1.90 at other airlines vs our $1.65- for the first 24 months with an incremental step until 60 months (over the course of 24 hours that is $6) if a 4 day was away from base 74 hours, that would be $888 more per year just in per diem.

Next is deadhead, we are paying 80% vs other airlines 100% (even Trans States is paying 100% DH).

Critical pay: here it's 1.25, TSA is offering 1.5

Add in union dues and you can knock down all Compass rates by 2%. Second year FO at Compass becomes $37.74 after union dues. Which SkyWest is not paying.

Min day at SkyWest is 4.2 hours credit with a guarantee of 76 hours, which means a reserve only works 18 days (13/12 days off on reserve) vs Compass reserve min day of 3.5 hours and 75 hours guarantee getting (12/11 days off).

My point is how can we claim top teir pay when we are not paying it?

Also it tells you how management thinks if they feel what is being offered is top teir. Are they going to do what happened last time and offer a bonus when they come up short on talent, or are they going to try and do something sooner (offer to get ALPA in sooner than the amendable date)?

Just curious, what will captain rates at year 2-5 look like after oct with fo pay increases

Poser765
09-08-2017, 04:51 PM
Just curious, what will captain rates at year 2-5 look like after oct with fo pay increasesthey'll look exactly the same as they do now, apparently.

JetDoc
09-09-2017, 09:30 AM
they'll look exactly the same as they do now, apparently.

Sadly......

TillerTemptress
09-10-2017, 07:03 PM
*****.

He posted this thread back in May. I'm not defending him, but he's basically abandoned it since then. And the first post is now wrong, since we DID raise our pay.

week
09-10-2017, 07:05 PM
Oops didn't see the date. Egg on my face. Deleted my reply thanks for pointing that out

Taco280AI
09-18-2017, 05:05 PM
Not pay, but benefits. Heard Compass doesn't give pilots buddy passes and what travel benefits you do get aren't too good?

FlytheSky
09-18-2017, 08:03 PM
Not pay, but benefits. Heard Compass doesn't give pilots buddy passes and what travel benefits you do get aren't too good?

True on the lack of buddy passes. Our travel benefits aren't industry leading. Standard regional non-wholly owned priority on Delta and American. If you're looking for a regional with good travel benefits, I'd suggest an American wholly-owned or Skywest.

But for me, travel benefits are pretty low on my list for what to decide a regional. Obviously, different strokes for different folks. For me, being west-coast based with a quick west coast upgrade was more important so I can move on somewhere else quickly to start building that all-important seniority at the career gig.

VIRotate
09-20-2017, 11:41 AM
Not pay, but benefits. Heard Compass doesn't give pilots buddy passes and what travel benefits you do get aren't too good?

Only give buddy passes to your worst enemy.

Poser765
09-20-2017, 02:58 PM
Only give buddy passes to your worst enemy.Also, are there many non wholly owned carriers that offer buddy passes.

amcnd
09-22-2017, 06:45 AM
Also, are there many non wholly owned carriers that offer buddy passes.

Yes.... i would say who. But then would get chastised for turning it into a SkyWest thread....

msprj2
09-24-2017, 06:13 AM
Also, are there many non wholly owned carriers that offer buddy passes.

Great instead of pay they give
Buddy passes

veewan
10-28-2017, 05:53 AM
Anyone else see that CommutAir has announced captain pay to all pilots after 1 year on property? Second year FO will now be over $64/ hour... their year 2 CA pay is $66, so I'd assume year 2 FO will pay at that rate.

Poser765
10-28-2017, 06:36 AM
Anyone else see that CommutAir has announced captain pay to all pilots after 1 year on property? Second year FO will now be over $64/ hour... their year 2 CA pay is $66, so I'd assume year 2 FO will pay at that rate.hmm I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I get pay needs to go up, but I'm really not impressed with an fo making the same as a captain.

veewan
10-28-2017, 07:01 AM
hmm I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I get pay needs to go up, but I'm really not impressed with an fo making the same as a captain.

Yes, but captain pay will go up at the regional level. My prediction is when a FO sees that they will make more holding a line bidding good trips (FO) vs sitting on reserve as CA, more pilots will bypass upgrade. When they get short on CAs then pay will go up.

Management isn't going to pay a cent more without necessitating to do so.

Poser765
10-28-2017, 07:55 AM
Yes, but captain pay will go up at the regional level. My prediction is when a FO sees that they will make more holding a line bidding good trips (FO) vs sitting on reserve as CA, more pilots will bypass upgrade. When they get short on CAs then pay will go up.

Management isn't going to pay a cent more without necessitating to do so.that's kind of already happening at mq. Coupled with people not wanting to sit reserve in NYC people are bypassing.

I'm just generally unimpressed with the hard on all some companies tend to have for new hire fos. Guys, don't get me wrong... I'm stoked as a year one fo you are making as much as I am as a year three captain. What makes me mad is there is nothing going on to keep those of us on property here. The sooner they realize we need love too the better.

veewan
10-28-2017, 01:43 PM
that's kind of already happening at mq. Coupled with people not wanting to sit reserve in NYC people are bypassing.

I'm just generally unimpressed with the hard on all some companies tend to have for new hire fos. Guys, don't get me wrong... I'm stoked as a year one fo you are making as much as I am as a year three captain. What makes me mad is there is nothing going on to keep those of us on property here. The sooner they realize we need love too the better.

I'm not sure it's a hard on for new pilots as much as the large supply of pilots willing to fly for 22 bucks an hour dried up with all the hiring. Raising first year pay or FO pay makes it palatable for a corporate guy etc to take a pay cut for some 121 time... so you can finally get those guys in the door.

Management didn't raise FO pay before the hiring boom, they reacted to it, so I think CA wages will rise, but only in reaction to guys choosing not to upgrade or leaving for greener pastures (LCC or mainline) before they get in the left seat. If they pay close to mainline FO rates for regional CA then they'll be able to keep the seats filled.

Poser765
10-28-2017, 03:07 PM
I'm not sure it's a hard on for new pilots as much as the large supply of pilots willing to fly for 22 bucks an hour dried up with all the hiring. Raising first year pay or FO pay makes it palatable for a corporate guy etc to take a pay cut for some 121 time... so you can finally get those guys in the door.

Management didn't raise FO pay before the hiring boom, they reacted to it, so I think CA wages will rise, but only in reaction to guys choosing not to upgrade or leaving for greener pastures (LCC or mainline) before they get in the left seat. If they pay close to mainline FO rates for regional CA then they'll be able to keep the seats filled.Yeah but it seems like the bulk of improvements at many shops is on the fo/new hire side of things. I get it... We got to get butts in seats at class, but at the same time we need to keep people from leaving after year 1 or 2 for other regionals. That comes with increased pay across the board.

And a bit more on topic about C4, I would NOT be cool flying with an fo making a buck or two less than me as a captain. There is a reason a captain makes more money than an fo, and it should stay that way.

aviatorpr
10-29-2017, 10:59 AM
CommutAir guy here just to clarify some things. 1st yr FO pay remains at $37 since the company offers up to $22,100 sign on bonus. On your 1yr anniversary of IOE completion you go to 2nd yr Dash CA pay which is $11/hr less than what a jet CA makes who you’ll be sitting next to.(Our Dash’s are getting parked at the beginning of Jan and we will be only a 145 operator). You are only eligible for that CA pay as an FO while you wait for a CA vacancy where you are eligible to hold CA. If you bypass they will knock you back to our FO pay scale. Only thing CA’s got out of this LOA was a $5,000/yr retention bonus. It’s a step in the right direction to match what EDV will be paying but it’s got a lot of caveats.

Mx212
10-29-2017, 11:35 AM
There needs to be an loa or section 3 change to keep a rough pay difference between fo to captain pay of 60% so pay rates go up together.

TimetoClimb
10-29-2017, 03:44 PM
CommutAir guy here just to clarify some things. 1st yr FO pay remains at $37 since the company offers up to $22,100 sign on bonus. On your 1yr anniversary of IOE completion you go to 2nd yr Dash CA pay which is $11/hr less than what a jet CA makes who youíll be sitting next to.(Our Dashís are getting parked at the beginning of Jan and we will be only a 145 operator). You are only eligible for that CA pay as an FO while you wait for a CA vacancy where you are eligible to hold CA. If you bypass they will knock you back to our FO pay scale. Only thing CAís got out of this LOA was a $5,000/yr retention bonus. Itís a step in the right direction to match what EDV will be paying but itís got a lot of caveats.

Interesting strategy. UP or Out.

Poser765
10-29-2017, 06:08 PM
There needs to be an loa or section 3 change to keep a rough pay difference between fo to captain pay of 60% so pay rates go up together.I would be willing to swear up and down that that was part of the speak when we rolled the 10k sign on bonus into pay 2 years ago. I seem to be the only one that remembers that, though, so I guess I was dreaming.

I agree completely.

JetDoc
10-30-2017, 09:45 AM
I would be willing to swear up and down that that was part of the speak when we rolled the 10k sign on bonus into pay 2 years ago. I seem to be the only one that remembers that, though, so I guess I was dreaming.

I agree completely.

I just went though LOA 2016-02 which applies to f/o rates and there is no mention of tying the raises together. I do agree though, the Cappys need some cheddar too. Contrary to popular belief, not all of us are delta "material" LMAO! Something close to the new Endeavor rates would be a start.



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