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View Full Version : Learjet crash in Teterboro


PotatoChip
05-15-2017, 01:39 PM
Thoughts with the families and those involved. Doesn't look good.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/learjet-crashes-teterboro-new-jersey-warehouse-n759771


galaxy flyer
05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
Weather has been good all day except for some strong winds from the NW.

Here's the METAR just after the a crash

KTEB 151945Z 32015G32KT 10SM SCT045 19/04 A2975 RMK SMOKE ON APCH

RIP

GF

TiredSoul
05-15-2017, 03:26 PM
http://abc7ny.com/news/2-dead-in-fiery-small-plane-crash-near-teterboro-airport/1996145/

2 souls lost.
Sad


RI830
05-15-2017, 05:34 PM
Very sad indeed. Prayers and thoughts go out to the families.

Those circles from Rwy 6 to 1 or 19 to 24 can be challenging at times.
With winds blowing from 340/20+, a circle from 6 to 1 would require a quick turn off the final and an immediate turn to final once wings have gone level. If you delay the turn to final, the dreaded low and slow overshoot begins. Especiallly dangerous when you have a gusty quartering tailwind.

I fear this may have been a scenario these guys faced.
God speed to these guys on their flight west.

Falcondrivr
05-16-2017, 12:43 AM
https://youtu.be/yOr3rQn1qHc

Hawkerdriver1
05-16-2017, 05:39 AM
Many years in that model. The safety margins, if not complied with, can be fatal. In particular, when bank angle limitations are exceeded during circling maneuvers:

Truckee, CA: 2 fatal during circle
Palwakee, IL. 2 fatal during circle
Teterboro, NJ ?

The angle of impact, from the parking lot video, appears to show an aircraft that had already departed controlled flight......:(

Hrkdrivr
05-16-2017, 06:18 AM
https://youtu.be/2pTqMARtju0

RottenRay
05-16-2017, 09:31 PM
My heart goes out to the families and friends of the crew, and I'm thankful that nobody on the ground met their maker.

PlaneS
05-16-2017, 10:46 PM
Many years in that model. The safety margins, if not complied with, can be fatal. In particular, when bank angle limitations are exceeded during circling maneuvers:

Truckee, CA: 2 fatal during circle
Palwakee, IL. 2 fatal during circle
Teterboro, NJ ?

The angle of impact, from the parking lot video, appears to show an aircraft that had already departed controlled flight......:(

I'm unfamiliar with the Lear, would you mind elaborating on the safety margins you referred to?

PerfInit
05-17-2017, 05:35 AM
What the previous poster is referring to is the inherent low speed handling challenges with the LR-Jet series due to the Fuel Tanks located at the wing tips. Lots of extra weight out there on a large "moment arm". Thus during low speed maneuvering, an overbanking tendency can occur with rapid onset and limited ability to correct for it. Proper airspeed control, adherence to minimum maneuvering speeds (depends on flap setting and weight) and limiting bank angles during maneuvers such as circling to land are normal SOP.

Std Deviation
05-17-2017, 09:49 AM
What the previous poster is referring to is the inherent low speed handling challenges with the LR-Jet series due to the Fuel Tanks located at the wing tips. Lots of extra weight out there on a large "moment arm". Thus during low speed maneuvering, an overbanking tendency can occur with rapid onset and limited ability to correct for it. Proper airspeed control, adherence to minimum maneuvering speeds (depends on flap setting and weight) and limiting bank angles during maneuvers such as circling to land are normal SOP.

Similar to the MU2. In the Mitz the correction occurs only with spoilers - a double whammy.

HeavyDriver
05-17-2017, 01:31 PM
What the previous poster is referring to is the inherent low speed handling challenges with the LR-Jet series due to the Fuel Tanks located at the wing tips. Lots of extra weight out there on a large "moment arm". Thus during low speed maneuvering, an overbanking tendency can occur with rapid onset and limited ability to correct for it. Proper airspeed control, adherence to minimum maneuvering speeds (depends on flap setting and weight) and limiting bank angles during maneuvers such as circling to land are normal SOP.

It's been 30 years from my Learjet days, but I remember a maximum fuel in the tip tanks for landing being about 600lbs? The airplane was a joy to fly, but once you turned the yaw damper OFF for landing. All hands on deck!

Hawkerdriver1
05-17-2017, 02:07 PM
I'm unfamiliar with the Lear, would you mind elaborating on the safety margins you referred to?

The minimum speed for circling, Vref +...., & complying with maximum bank angle limitations, is essential in ensuring the aircraft does not depart controlled flight.

I'm sorry. I can't recall what the maximum bank angle limitation is during a circle. It has been a long time.

The Plainsman
05-17-2017, 05:54 PM
We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....

1wife2airlines
05-17-2017, 08:23 PM
We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....

So no artificial stall warning or aircraft buffet would occur as a precursor?

OSUPIC
05-17-2017, 09:40 PM
The 35 has a Stall Warning Horn, Stick Shaker, and Stick Pusher but you could still have a rapid increase in AOA that would take you through all three to the stall very quickly.

LearDude
05-18-2017, 03:38 PM
It's been 30 years from my Learjet days, but I remember a maximum fuel in the tip tanks for landing being about 600lbs? The airplane was a joy to fly, but once you turned the yaw damper OFF for landing. All hands on deck!

Negative, for the lear 35 max fuel for landing in each tip tank is 925. The 600lbs you are referring to is the amount of fuel left in a tip tank if the jet pumps fail (and your not lucky enough to have a model installed with the optional tip stand by pumps).

LearDude
05-18-2017, 03:45 PM
We would use Ref +20 back in the airnet days for circling. That speed would all for a small safety margin for turns in the pattern (usually about 20 degrees of bank max when configured). Wx at the time of the crash was gusty, if the crew got low and slow and then combined with an unpredictable gust, could be the perfect setup for a stall/spin event.
Prayers for the victims and their families....

We use Ref+ 10 and add a few knots depending on gust factor. Everytime I go through recurrent im with guys who's company just has them use Vref...scary. Throw in a circling maneuver with wind shear and you got yourself a recipe for disaster. Keep it fast people, this plane will bite you.

Boris Badenov
05-21-2017, 09:14 AM
Similar to the MU2. In the Mitz the correction occurs only with spoilers - a double whammy.

Hogwash. There's no "overbanking tendency" in a Mitsi. Also, if you're landing with the tips full, you're doing it wrong.

rickair7777
05-22-2017, 07:51 AM
Hogwash. There's no "overbanking tendency" in a Mitsi. Also, if you're landing with the tips full, you're doing it wrong.

Care to elaborate? I always wondered why that thing had such a reputation.

UAL T38 Phlyer
05-22-2017, 08:20 AM
The MU-2 has no ailerons; only spoilers. If you start flirting with a stall, spoilers provide little or no roll control.

trafly
05-22-2017, 11:09 AM
Care to elaborate? I always wondered why that thing had such a reputation.

Mitsubishi wanted a fast, efficient airplane that could use short, rough runways. Thin, highly loaded wing to make it fast. Full span flaps to get good runway performance from that thin wing. Big squishy landing gear for rough runways. Turned out to be a great airplane, but one that demands a disciplined pilot who knows exactly what's going on with the airplane.

An engine failure at/after V1 is different than any other light twin/turboprop. Rudder for yaw, but don't roll into the good engine, because those spoilers will only kill lift and create drag. Don't retract the gear, because there are two gear doors that open forward, presenting several square feet of drag to the wind. Retraction takes about 18 to 20 seconds and reduces rate of climb by about 500 fpm. So, you verifying feathering of the dead engine and just keep the nose straight. Once you've got some altitude you can accelerate and start cleaning up. Flown properly, it does just fine.

Lots of MU-2s ended up in the hands of individuals and (freight) companies that tried to operate them on the cheap and/or with poorly trained and inexperienced pilots. Those are the airplane that you read about and that produced the bad reputation.

TiredSoul
05-22-2017, 03:06 PM
About 6-8 years ago an MU-2 went for about $250,000 while a Cirrus 22 went for $400k+ and a Baron G1000 was a cool $Mil.
So you're talking turboprop performance for less then SE piston prices.
This attracted a certain type of private owners that were heading for a smoking hole in the ground.
I've never flown an MU2 but I've been told the airplane was intended for career pilots and not Private pilots, same as the Piper AeroStar.

dustrpilot
05-22-2017, 04:35 PM
The MU-2 has no ailerons; only spoilers. If you start flirting with a stall, spoilers provide little or no roll control.



It has ailerons, but they are called trim ailerons. They're located on the trailing edge of the flaps, they're very effective, and are operated by rotating a knob left or right.
If you experience an engine failure I think the drill is pitch to 10 degrees, hold the roll trim in the desired direction for a 3 count and roll the rudder trim 5 times. It's the only plane I've ever flown that I needed to reduce power on a single engine go around to get it under control. If I recall, about 80% trq, get it trimmed and then get more trq if needed.
I'm not a high time Mits pilot, but I can see that if it's flown like a King Air, in the right configuration, you'd probably have a topic in your honor right here on APC.


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HB Pilot
05-25-2017, 06:38 PM
There seems to be a reluctance to identify the second pilot by both the company involved and the NTSB. Ten days after the crash, his/her name still hasn't been released. More than a couple media sites are questioning why.

2StgTurbine
05-25-2017, 07:06 PM
There seems to be a reluctance to identify the second pilot by both the company involved and the NTSB. Ten days after the crash, his/her name still hasn't been released. More than a couple media sites are questioning why.

They were able to ID the FO because of fingerprints. Unfortunately, there was not enough evidence to ID the PIC. While they may know who was supposed to fly the aircraft, I think they are waiting for physical proof of the pilot before they release it to the media.

Std Deviation
06-01-2017, 04:48 PM
Hogwash. There's no "overbanking tendency" in a Mitsi. Also, if you're landing with the tips full, you're doing it wrong.

You assumed I agreed with the entire post I quoted. I referenced low speed characteristics and spoiler based performance issues. I should have been more specific. I have 1100 hours in it, by myself at night.Frankly, I loved the plane. Flew it four nights a week. But it does have some especially unforgiving characteristics. And I land full flaps in it. A big no-no according to FlightSafety. But that's how I was trained (By Reese Howell). I had one engine shutdown and two times gear failed to extend. Other than that I've had no major issues. I lost a colleague to a stall/spin in it at BWI in 2004. Professional pilot with 6800 hours TT.

Just for the record, if you're fully fueled and immediately return because of smoke, you're landing tips full. As you know, that's on the main tank and you're not transferring then. Say, in downtown Detroit, at 3am, in January, with 1200 pounds of Federal Reserve checks. Or something similar. That's not doing it wrong. Blanket statements may not apply. Your mileage may vary.

727C47
06-03-2017, 02:13 AM
I always liked the Mitzi never had a chance to fly one, I've done that circle at TEB a bunch on windy days, lots of turbulence, God rest those Lear pilots, a very sad situation.

TiredSoul
02-14-2018, 11:24 PM
Reports out, not looking good

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/60000-60499/60373/611460.pdf

ScoobyDooo
02-15-2018, 08:30 AM
Reports out, not looking good

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/60000-60499/60373/611460.pdf

Just read through this, so this is just the NTSB putting all the facts down as it pertained to flight etc?

I didnt see a cause?

USMCFLYR
02-15-2018, 10:14 AM
The cause was lack of airmanship, loss of SA and poor decision making all leading to a stall.

The company is going to take a HUGE hit on this as the SIC wasn't even suppose to be flying the airplane :eek:

Everything about the mishap just makes me hang my head and wonder WHY? So needless on so many levels. :(:confused:

galaxy flyer
02-15-2018, 11:07 AM
Just read through this, so this is just the NTSB putting all the facts down as it pertained to flight etc?

I didnt see a cause?

Yes, just factual matter as of release date. The NTSB will have public hearing(s); take testimony in open; then write the final report with findings as to cause and recommendations.

It’s ugly, alright.

USMCFLYR,

Yes, sad and hard to explain for many, but having been at a 135 operator many moons ago, I can easily see captains like this one being in the seat. And co-pilots who were not given the airmanship and mentoring we were given in our services. 135 Operators are going to be testing what minimum qualifications mean for years.

GF

Adlerdriver
02-15-2018, 11:51 AM
Captain - convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and multiple check ride busts and issues.
FO - convicted of 3rd degree assault on a police officer and multiple check ride busts.

Sometime a history of judgment lapses and poor flying ability are just what they appear to be. Results kind of speak for themselves.

galaxy flyer
02-15-2018, 01:42 PM
The dark corners of aviation are dark indeed. Hate to say it, but there are hundreds, maybe more, of those types out there just waiting for the chance to make it in the big time. Note that both hid material facts on their medical applications.

GF

Burton78
02-15-2018, 02:37 PM
Reading through the interviews on this report, apparently the passengers they took into PHL and were later scheduled to be taken to TEB were shaken up pretty badly upon arrival. So much so, that they elected to drive opposed to stepping onboard that plane again. Speaks volumes and was obviously the smartest decision of their lives.


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PowderFinger
02-15-2018, 03:58 PM
Reading the CVR transcript reminds me of the color codes ... Condition White ... X2. RIP.

SonicFlyer
02-15-2018, 05:57 PM
Reading through the interviews on this report, apparently the passengers they took into PHL and were later scheduled to be taken to TEB were shaken up pretty badly upon arrival. So much so, that they elected to drive opposed to stepping onboard that plane again. Speaks volumes and was obviously the smartest decision of their lives.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLink? :confused:

galaxy flyer
02-15-2018, 07:18 PM
https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=60373&CFID=1479093&CFTOKEN=1ee3edc132deacc4-6FEBBE90-9B6B-FFF6-4BB1D7E1A8C1647A

TiredSoul
02-15-2018, 09:01 PM
Also little or no oversight from the FAA.
“Well it’s on demand so we can’t schedule an observation”...

:rolleyes:

USMCFLYR
02-16-2018, 02:20 AM
Also little or no oversight from the FAA.
“Well it’s on demand so we can’t schedule an observation”...

:rolleyes:
Where did you see this?

TiredSoul
02-16-2018, 07:28 AM
Where did you see this?

Page 84
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/60000-60499/60373/611461.pdf

USMCFLYR
02-16-2018, 11:24 AM
Page 84
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/60000-60499/60373/611461.pdf

Thanks.

When asked about the Trans-Pacific SIC-0 policy listed in their GM, he said he was not familiar with it. He had heard about the policy about an hour ago.
There is that pesky SIC-0 again.

‘...let me show you how this is done’?
Don’t like hearing that, but I don’t remember reading that in the CVR transcript either.

PowderFinger
02-16-2018, 12:13 PM
Thanks.


There is that pesky SIC-0 again.

‘...let me show you how this is done’?
Don’t like hearing that, but I don’t remember reading that in the CVR transcript either.

I don't remember reading that either ... Thought that was the highly popular and skilled avatrix at SW going into LGA

PowderFinger
02-16-2018, 12:17 PM
Would love to hear why the captain only lasted 2 months at PSA

TCASTESTOK
02-19-2018, 10:02 PM
Would love to hear why the captain only lasted 2 months at PSA

Couldnt one FOIA the PRIA records?

Also regarding the accident, the SIC-0 program was the PREVENT this from happening.

When asked why there was a need for SIC-0 system if the SIC was already fully qualified, he
said that SICs had demonstrated their abilities in a simulator, but not in real life with passengers.
Before putting their name on the line with passengers who were paying the bills, they wanted to
make sure they can handle the basic tasks

At the time of the accident, there were no Lear SICs that were allowed to fly the airplane
since they were all SIC-0.

JohnBurke
02-20-2018, 01:35 AM
Captain - convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and multiple check ride busts and issues.
FO - convicted of 3rd degree assault on a police officer and multiple check ride busts.

Sometime a history of judgment lapses and poor flying ability are just what they appear to be. Results kind of speak for themselves.

Reading through some of interviews and statements, I can say with some measure of conviction that the statements are at best questionable, as are certain of those interviewed, as I know some of those involved, as well as the aircraft and the operators. I'd hesitate to be specific on a public forum, but the only surprise is that this didn't happen sooner. Additionally, certain of the operators tended to hire questionably, and to gather eclectic characters.

The culture of minimal training and captain dominance in the cockpit was corporate from the top down when many of these actors worked together. It's an attitude and approach to flying that the industry has been trying to stamp out for the past couple of decades, yet in pockets, it remains. The use of first officers not capable of flying the airplane is a window into that mentality.

One of those named had a long history of pushing fuel to nearly zero, and took great pride in landing at or nearly out of fuel, and had flamed engines out that way, and flown high speed direct to final with a steep descent due to being fuel critical, on a regular basis. The same also had major anger management issues, including mandatory anger management counseling; that such a person was called on to make character judgements of the deceased throws much of the process into question. Suffice it to say that there is a lot more unsaid than said here, and the small bit shown is only the topside portion of the ice berg.

TiredSoul
02-20-2018, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the additional info JB.
I could read CYA between the lines as well.

The culture of minimal training and captain dominance in the cockpit was corporate from the top down when many of these actors worked together. It's an attitude and approach to flying that the industry has been trying to stamp out for the past couple of decades, yet in pockets, it remains. The use of first officers not capable of flying the airplane is a window into that mentality

This ^^^

pilotguy7
02-20-2018, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the additional info JB.

I could read CYA between the lines as well.







This ^^^



I flew with the SIC early on (I did his INST .. nearly only rating he didn’t bust). Great kid. Nice guy. But LITS of alarm bells early on. So sad for him and his family ... but this was a perfect storm of two pilots that should have never been together.. ever!


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TCASTESTOK
02-22-2018, 03:57 PM
The company is going to take a HUGE hit on this as the SIC wasn't even suppose to be flying the airplane :eek:


Yea good luck to them ever being insured again. It is a fact that their insurance will NOT payout for this due to the SIC flying when he wasn't supposed to be.



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