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wmupilot85
05-21-2017, 05:26 AM
Just trying to do some comparisons, but how does Skywest treat FAR 117 extensions?

-How often do you need to extend, or are asked to extend?
-If you extend, do you get anything in return?
-If you don't extend, how is pay handled?
-If you don't extend, are there any repercussions?


RemoveB4Flight
05-21-2017, 08:11 AM
What is asked to extend?
If you don't want to extend you need to call out fatigued. Pay depends- it will be evaluated, if they consider it legitimate you'll receive pay, if not you won't. No repercussions on fatigue calls.

Sambeaux
05-21-2017, 02:38 PM
Yea about that. They (crew scheduling) are under the impression that "concurrence" is implied. My interpretation of the reg reads as if the PIC has the option to make a choice on whether or not to take the extension. They definitely disagree. If you don't want to extend they force you to call out fatigued. In which case the fatigue committee will "review" it.


worstpilotever
05-21-2017, 02:42 PM
That is jacked up. You should not have to call in fatigued if you don't want to extend. And if you don't extend the pay should be automatic. Might want to get the union involved....oh wait, you guys shot down ALPA multiple times. Well, good luck with that.

bigtime209
05-21-2017, 04:17 PM
That is jacked up. You should not have to call in fatigued if you don't want to extend. And if you don't extend the pay should be automatic. Might want to get the union involved....oh wait, you guys shot down ALPA multiple times. Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately, it's pretty standard around the regionals. At Envoy, it's the same deal. You don't wanna extend, then bang in fatigue. And ALPA can't do shiiiiiiit about it.

word302
05-21-2017, 05:56 PM
That is jacked up. You should not have to call in fatigued if you don't want to extend. And if you don't extend the pay should be automatic. Might want to get the union involved....oh wait, you guys shot down ALPA multiple times. Well, good luck with that.

Lol.... Good one.

trip
05-21-2017, 06:50 PM
Unfortunately the Feds have signed off on this practice, industry wide unless your union has other options in place.

Sign in for your shift and you have "agreed" to be extended. Not flying it, then your unfit or fatigued.

worstpilotever
05-21-2017, 09:34 PM
Sorry, you need a stronger mec on this. (Well, not Skywest, they are too good for a union). United has to ask if we will extend and if we do not there is no harm no foul. Don't even have to fill out a fatigue report anymore.

tcco94
05-21-2017, 10:57 PM
Sorry, you need a stronger mec on this. (Well, not Skywest, they are too good for a union). United has to ask if we will extend and if we do not there is no harm no foul. Don't even have to fill out a fatigue report anymore.

Why does a mainline pilot care about a regional not being part of ALPA? Do you lose sleep over it?

rickair7777
05-22-2017, 06:53 AM
That is jacked up. You should not have to call in fatigued if you don't want to extend. And if you don't extend the pay should be automatic. Might want to get the union involved....oh wait, you guys shot down ALPA multiple times. Well, good luck with that.

The FAA issued a legal interpretation which allowed the extension to become mandatory. I was very disappointed in the FAA, they essentially added two hours to every table B limit...defeating the whole point.

Unless there existed a workrule to the contrary (which we didn't have because we thought we were protected by the law!), that's the way many airlines are rolling with it.

If you're tired call in fatigued, at least you can still do that.

We don't need a union to negotiate work rules, but we didn't waste negotiating capital on something we thought was covered by federal law! Whether we'll revisit that depends on our pilot group's priorities. Since I can call fatigued if needed, I'd prefer to negotiate for something else.

DirkDiggler
05-22-2017, 07:10 AM
At XJT they will ask if you're willing to extend. We got an email the other day asking why our extension refusal rates are so high, 50+% refusals. If you are not extending you just tell them no and that's the end of that (non-jeopardy). If you want to get paid for the flight then you have to fill out a non-concurrence form, which requests some info about your sleep patterns. But the fatigue process and calling in fatigued is completely separate from extensions here.

ACEssXfer
05-22-2017, 07:22 AM
Sorry, you need a stronger mec on this. (Well, not Skywest, they are too good for a union). United has to ask if we will extend and if we do not there is no harm no foul. Don't even have to fill out a fatigue report anymore.

You are coming across as ignorant, at the very least uninformed. The company is not required to ask to extend you 30 minutes. After 30 up to 2 hours they are required to ask however, simply stating "because it's past my 117 limitations" is not an acceptable answer as to why you are refusing, per the FAA.

Please see my link below to the FAA's ridiculous interpretation of 117 FDP extension. There is nothing a union can do.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357%20-1-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

No Lies
05-22-2017, 10:58 AM
At XJT they will ask if you're willing to extend. We got an email the other day asking why our extension refusal rates are so high, 50+% refusals. If you are not extending you just tell them no and that's the end of that (non-jeopardy). If you want to get paid for the flight then you have to fill out a non-concurrence form, which requests some info about your sleep patterns. But the fatigue process and calling in fatigued is completely separate from extensions here.
I never filled out one of those forms at XJT and most other pilots do not fill them out either. Everyone still gets paid even if you do not fill out the form.

worstpilotever
05-22-2017, 11:49 AM
You are coming across as ignorant, at the very least uninformed. The company is not required to ask to extend you 30 minutes. After 30 up to 2 hours they are required to ask however, simply stating "because it's past my 117 limitations" is not an acceptable answer as to why you are refusing, per the FAA.

Please see my link below to the FAA's ridiculous interpretation of 117 FDP extension. There is nothing a union can do.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357%20-1-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

What company are you referring to? At my company they are required to ask as part of our contract. We can say either yes or no. There is no repercussion for saying no. As it should be.

Nevjets
05-27-2017, 02:21 PM
You are coming across as ignorant, at the very least uninformed. The company is not required to ask to extend you 30 minutes. After 30 up to 2 hours they are required to ask however, simply stating "because it's past my 117 limitations" is not an acceptable answer as to why you are refusing, per the FAA.

Please see my link below to the FAA's ridiculous interpretation of 117 FDP extension. There is nothing a union can do.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357%20-1-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf



Who says a union cannot do anything about FARs? Many contracts have provisions that are more restrictive than FARs. That's nothing new. In fact, working to FAR is the exception at most places.

Anyway, extension or not, it's moot. If you are fatigued, refuse the extension.

Utah
05-27-2017, 02:43 PM
Perhaps this is why DTW is about to become our largest domicile and a ATL domicile may open soon flying ASA 200s.

Probably a very minor reason but you get the point. I don't think SkyWest has very many fatigue calls either.

Frankly SkyWest's interpretation of the extension policy is BS. Why even have it at all.

trip
05-27-2017, 04:57 PM
extension policy is BS. Why even have it at all.

The problem is the FAA completly caved on the rule after some pressure. Originally the extension was only for "unforeseen circumstances" beyond control and mutually agreed upon. Well that quickly came to be defined as anything that was not in the crews schedule as originally published is "unforeseen".
Just call fatigued if your not feeling safe, you might get paid you might not. The Feds see this as a company/Union issue and are not getting involved in repercussions of refusing an extension.

Nevjets
05-27-2017, 06:14 PM
Perhaps this is why DTW is about to become our largest domicile and a ATL domicile may open soon flying ASA 200s.



Probably a very minor reason but you get the point. I don't think SkyWest has very many fatigue calls either.



Frankly SkyWest's interpretation of the extension policy is BS. Why even have it at all.



It's about costs, not fatigue policies. They can change the policy overnight if they wanted to.

mking84
05-31-2017, 10:23 AM
Unfortunately, it's pretty standard around the regionals. At Envoy, it's the same deal. You don't wanna extend, then bang in fatigue. And ALPA can't do shiiiiiiit about it.

No it's not. At XJT PIC has to agree to extension as does SIC. No fatigue call needed, if you refuse to extend you are pay protected.

2ThaRedLine
06-06-2017, 11:16 AM
The FAA issued a legal interpretation which allowed the extension to become mandatory. I was very disappointed in the FAA, they essentially added two hours to every table B limit...defeating the whole point.

Unless there existed a workrule to the contrary (which we didn't have because we thought we were protected by the law!), that's the way many airlines are rolling with it.

If you're tired call in fatigued, at least you can still do that.

We don't need a union to negotiate work rules, but we didn't waste negotiating capital on something we thought was covered by federal law! Whether we'll revisit that depends on our pilot group's priorities. Since I can call fatigued if needed, I'd prefer to negotiate for something else.


Which legal interp are you referring to?

rickair7777
06-07-2017, 10:30 AM
Which legal interp are you referring to?

Anderson/Teamsters 11 Jul 2014