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Lvflying
05-21-2017, 02:06 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am new to both the forums and corporate flying in general. Looking for information and personal experiences from those who don't mind sharing. Especially (but not limited to those with experience on Citations and Challengers). I have an offer from a regional but am also interested in corporate part 91 flying.

While I understand that there are good and bad things to everything and a wide range of experiences and opinions, here is what I'm looking at:

1. Airlines: Pretty structured flying and procedures intensive. Low pay initially but worth in on the long run. Can become routine.

2. "Charter/135": Fairly structured as well. Interesting destinations which keep you on your toes and provide variety. Descent pay at times but some may take to interpreting rules loosely in the interest of profit (enough said).

3. Companies with flight departments flying part 91: While some have very capable planes, they have the least regulation. Potentially, good pay. Also, very high potential for fun/interesting flying.

I'm very drawn to the "airlines" because of the income potential after paying my dues for a while and the greater adherence to procedures and safety. At the same time, I believe that could also be found with a part 91 operator and potentially have a better schedule right from the start, BUT, am a bit skeptical as profit seems to at times override safety and regulations making for not so fun moments (again POTENTIALLY). So with that......

Do these part 91 operators generally listen, are reasonable when input is given regarding safety or being mostly type A and results driven, they disregard advice?

Experiences flying the CE-500/560, Challenger 604

Any experiences are welcomed as are any things to keep in mind which could help me find out culture, safety, and general environment of a potential part 91 company.

Thanks to everyone in advance....


TiredSoul
05-21-2017, 03:16 PM
Do these part 91 operators generally listen, are reasonable when input is given regarding safety or being mostly type A and results driven, they disregard advice?

That's the reason why I've never seriously considered Part 91 flying unless it's for a large company like Coca Cola Or Walmart that have a scheduled flight department.
Flying for some guy who thinks that he-who-has-the-money-makes-the-rules no thanks.
I'd like some protection from regs, OpSpecs, GOM and oh yeah..a decent Chief Pilot.

Red Forman
05-22-2017, 04:21 AM
That's the reason why I've never seriously considered Part 91 flying unless it's for a large company like Coca Cola Or Walmart that have a scheduled flight department.
Flying for some guy who thinks that he-who-has-the-money-makes-the-rules no thanks.
I'd like some protection from regs, OpSpecs, GOM and oh yeah..a decent Chief Pilot.

Lots of part 91 departments have all of those things.


Falcondrivr
05-22-2017, 07:37 AM
I think the problem with your thesis is that you are generalizing all of the categories. There are probably still some airlines with a crappy safety culture that you wouldn't want to work for. I know there are 135 ops that are nightmares incarnate. With Part 91 you have everything in the spectrum.
You asked for experiences, so here's mine:

Part 91 for Fortune 150ish publicly traded company. The "publicly traded" is important for your QOL. It means any non-business use of the aircraft gets charged to the user as imputed income. That translates to almost no weekend flying at our company.

We have an ops manual that incorporates a SMS. The manual was signed by the CEO as company policy. We do not violate the manual for any reason. Our passengers know this, and know that we have the CEO's ear. Of course we get asked to do borderline things (duty times, etc...) frequently. In the 12 + years I've been here I've never been second guessed when I've said no with a professional explanation.
We are paid average, (or maybe low average?) for the aircraft we operate (large cabin Falcons.) Benefits commensurate with a large manufacturing corporation, 5 weeks paid vacation after a couple of years, stock, 401k match, discount programs, etc...

We staff at 3 pilots per aircraft. Every pilot flies around 350 hours a year, or 8-10 days a month average. We are not expected to show up at the hangar on non-flying days. While we are a pretty diverse group, our culture is one of professionalism. I can't imagine anyone skipping a checklist or operating against SOP.

So my experience is that there are really good Part 91 operators out there. Also really bad ones. In my opinion one of the best ways to tell the difference is pilot turnover. My company has had a flight department since 1984. We have had 7 pilots leave in all that time. Only 2 left to other flying jobs (United and Southwest.) the other 5 were retirements or career changes, one of which to upper management of our company. We've had one pilot opening in the last 10 years, to replace the United pilot last summer.

Personally, I started flying in 1984 too. I've watched the industry boom and bust. If I were in my 20s or 30s now, I'd go to 121. The career earnings of even the best 91 gig aren't going to compare to 30+ years of mainline 121 pay. However, the trade off is endless hub flying, TSA, and dealing with passengers, in the terminal and in the air.

galaxy flyer
05-22-2017, 07:40 AM
My department ran pretty much like my AMC squadron as to rules and scheduling, including set crew rest times, post-trip recovery days and monthly hard days off. We also had a scheduled 36-hour break every eight days. It helped that we were mostly ex-service.

Some of the most interesting and demanding flying, too.

What Falcondrvr is true.

GF

Two-percent
05-22-2017, 10:04 AM
Good gawd. Who wants to have more excitement as they get older? You want less not more. More stability, more structure. Not constantly looking for a job at age 50. Varied flying? Just hub turns for me or maybe to europe and back. Not kleening the lavs and having rich guy telling me when to shine his shooz. Nope.

Red Forman
05-22-2017, 10:47 AM
Good gawd. Who wants to have more excitement as they get older? You want less not more. More stability, more structure. Not constantly looking for a job at age 50. Varied flying? Just hub turns for me or maybe to europe and back. Not kleening the lavs and having rich guy telling me when to shine his shooz. Nope.

I've never cleaned a lav or shined any shoes other than my own. Not to mention I average working 1-2 days a week, very few weekends, no holidays, and when we are gone for more than a couple of days in a row it is in a nice location and I get to go out and enjoy it. But you were saying?

Tbpilot06
05-22-2017, 07:29 PM
I too have never shined anyone's shoes or cleaned the airplane. As a corporate pilot there is good and bad just like the airlines. For some the airlines are the end all be all but like the previous poster I never have to complain to anyone about the crappy hotels or wonder if they'll reimburse me for any of my meals or rental cars. My point is do your research about the company you'll work for and it will be a good choice whichever you way you decide.

galaxy flyer
05-22-2017, 10:38 PM
2%

Maybe you're a "mammonoid", but us tediophobes hate tedium. Few things better than opening an email with tickets to Easter Island or Dubai. Flying is all about adventure; a good friend is 70+ is is still excited to go somewhere he's never been.

GF

BoilerUP
05-23-2017, 02:59 AM
I was CP of a small 91 flight department (one Citation, one Cirrus) and greatly enjoyed the job and the experience.

There were a few things that were a PITA - battles that you really shouldn't have to fight, created by people that either refused to say "No" previous to you or somebody who knew just enough to form an opinion - but in the grand scheme I had an excellent boss who understood the limitations (and realities - $$$) of operating turbine aircraft and largely left me alone to manage as I saw fit.

Airplanes were impeccably maintained.

All expenses on AMEX Platinum card, nothing reasonable was ever questioned ("unreasonable" expenses were explained and rationalized). Cleaned oil off the belly of our Cirrus every so often but never cleaned the jet more than wiping bugs and spot stain removing in the cabin. Never did "b-work".

HMFIC was very good to me, flexible with family health concerns.

So why did I leave? I was in my very early 30s working for a principal who was in his late 50s and basically topped out on earning potential, and didn't want to miss a massive hiring wave and end up looking for work when my children were nearing college.

I appreciate that experience, and I'm a better pilot for it.

Mink
05-23-2017, 07:27 AM
I was CP of a small 91 flight department (one Citation, one Cirrus) and greatly enjoyed the job and the experience.

There were a few things that were a PITA - battles that you really shouldn't have to fight, created by people that either refused to say "No" previous to you or somebody who knew just enough to form an opinion - but in the grand scheme I had an excellent boss who understood the limitations (and realities - $$$) of operating turbine aircraft and largely left me alone to manage as I saw fit.

Airplanes were impeccably maintained.

All expenses on AMEX Platinum card, nothing reasonable was ever questioned ("unreasonable" expenses were explained and rationalized). Cleaned oil off the belly of our Cirrus every so often but never cleaned the jet more than wiping bugs and spot stain removing in the cabin. Never did "b-work".

HMFIC was very good to me, flexible with family health concerns.

So why did I leave? I was in my very early 30s working for a principal who was in his late 50s and basically topped out on earning potential, and didn't want to miss a massive hiring wave and end up looking for work when my children were nearing college.

I appreciate that experience, and I'm a better pilot for it.

That's a great turn of events. Congrats. Seriously.

Agree 100% with the precedent of the owners never being told "no". It's a balancing act. You have to remember why they own an airplane and accommodate as much as the situation allows, but you also have to be mindful of "if we do it this once, they'll expect it every time..."

So wait, what was the question? Need more coffee...

dozer
05-23-2017, 02:04 PM
I have flown a citation for 7 yrs for my current company and have flown corporate for a total of 22 yrs. I also have done the regional airline thing for a couple of years prior to the "Great Recession" and was furloughed.

In my current job I do the following:

Fly 550 hrs/yr.
Fly average of 17 days/month.
On call 24/7, except for 2 weeks vacation.
Fly 1 to 2 weekends/month.
110 overnights on average.
Keep plane and hangar clean.
Provide my own line service. (towing, fueling, lav, etc.)
Manage/schedule all maintenance.
Line up all rental cars for pax and self.
Stock galley supplies, provide catering on request.
Do all trip/flight planning.
Approve all invoices relating to plane/hangar.
Keep up all necessary subscriptions/pubs.
Arrange all training.

This is somewhat typical of the jobs that I have held on the corporate side.

My salary is in line with a Captain at a decent regional but I don,t have to commute, which is what keeps me coming back. Plus I'm in my 50's so what airline would want me :D ?

If I were young I would go the 121 route.
Hope this helps.

Swedish Blender
05-23-2017, 03:33 PM
My salary is in line with a Captain at a decent regional but I don,t have to commute, which is what keeps me coming back. Plus I'm in my 50's so what airline would want me :D ?

If I were young I would go the 121 route.
Hope this helps.

UPS has hired several in their 50s and one 60 year old I believe.
Not that I would recommend a change, just letting you know it wouldn't be hopeless.

Lvflying
05-23-2017, 10:05 PM
I want to thank everyone for their input. It is a certainly a big decision and I appreciate the different points of view.

While there are many different things we look for, I think given the chance, many would potentially take a job with a good company and QOL like the one “Falcondrivr” has. Those jobs unfortunately (for those searching) have a very low turnover rate. Even on what seems to be a descent (but not fortune…anything) company at first glance, I’m finding that having a family, the potential for earnings over the long-term, retirement and travel benefits with the airlines are weighing much higher than I previously thought. While commuting is not high on my list of priorities, those other factors are making me lean away from the part 91 world to try my hand at the 121 world. Could be a false sense of security but hopefully, it will pay in the end.

Fly507
11-10-2017, 02:39 PM
I want to thank everyone for their input. It is a certainly a big decision and I appreciate the different points of view.

While there are many different things we look for, I think given the chance, many would potentially take a job with a good company and QOL like the one “Falcondrivr” has. Those jobs unfortunately (for those searching) have a very low turnover rate. Even on what seems to be a descent (but not fortune…anything) company at first glance, I’m finding that having a family, the potential for earnings over the long-term, retirement and travel benefits with the airlines are weighing much higher than I previously thought. While commuting is not high on my list of priorities, those other factors are making me lean away from the part 91 world to try my hand at the 121 world. Could be a false sense of security but hopefully, it will pay in the end.

You can always go back. If you go to 121 now you'll HAVE to retire by the time you're 65. But if at that point you want to keep flying, and still feel in good shape, got your medical, etc. You can get yourself a part 91 job. Lots of companies look for the grey hair and 20k hours of experience to fly around the owner, CEO, CFO, and important clients. It is easier to go from 121 to 91 than the other way around. I was in your shoes a couple of years ago, decided to go 121 and build some jet time, eventually part 121 jet PIC time, and then figure out if I want to stay with the airlines or go Corporate.

Surely having jet PIC time, won't hurt if you're looking to fly a King Air, Citation, Challenger, Gulfstream, etc.

BPWI
11-13-2017, 09:41 AM
I graduated in the fall of 2001, so my choices were extremely thin walking straight out of college with a degree that was about as useful as toilet paper after that fateful day. I was hired into the right seat program at what was then, GE Capital Simuflite. I worked mostly in Lears and other light aircraft for over a decade, charter and 91 alike. I was given an opportunity 6yrs ago to fly a Global after many years networking and sharpening the resume'.

Today, I am currently a captain for a Fortune 200 outfit making 4th Year Captain pay at FedEx with one week on, one week off schedule & a month of vacation a year. Great right? I say all this in jest because I'm sitting at 38yrs old, looking at what the retirement among places such as Delta, FX or UPS are currently offering. It is light years better than what is currently offered at my current employer. The stability is slightly better at my current company as they have had a department nearly 60yrs without any layoffs.

But yet I still peek over the proverbial fence.

Without knowing your age or experience, I would tell you to go the 121 route, simply too many retirements and not enough folks to fill them. At any quality corporate department, you will have SOP's, ERP's & Company Ops Specs like many before me have stated. That should be the least of your concerns as if they don't, run the other direction. Times have changed, and a vast majority of upper management understands the value of safety and compliance.

Either way I think you are in a great position for the future. Keep us updated on what you decide and & best of luck!


Hello Everyone,

I am new to both the forums and corporate flying in general. Looking for information and personal experiences from those who don't mind sharing. Especially (but not limited to those with experience on Citations and Challengers). I have an offer from a regional but am also interested in corporate part 91 flying.

While I understand that there are good and bad things to everything and a wide range of experiences and opinions, here is what I'm looking at:

1. Airlines: Pretty structured flying and procedures intensive. Low pay initially but worth in on the long run. Can become routine.

2. "Charter/135": Fairly structured as well. Interesting destinations which keep you on your toes and provide variety. Descent pay at times but some may take to interpreting rules loosely in the interest of profit (enough said).

3. Companies with flight departments flying part 91: While some have very capable planes, they have the least regulation. Potentially, good pay. Also, very high potential for fun/interesting flying.

I'm very drawn to the "airlines" because of the income potential after paying my dues for a while and the greater adherence to procedures and safety. At the same time, I believe that could also be found with a part 91 operator and potentially have a better schedule right from the start, BUT, am a bit skeptical as profit seems to at times override safety and regulations making for not so fun moments (again POTENTIALLY). So with that......

Do these part 91 operators generally listen, are reasonable when input is given regarding safety or being mostly type A and results driven, they disregard advice?

Experiences flying the CE-500/560, Challenger 604

Any experiences are welcomed as are any things to keep in mind which could help me find out culture, safety, and general environment of a potential part 91 company.

Thanks to everyone in advance....

Lucky8888
11-14-2017, 10:49 PM
My department ran pretty much like my AMC squadron as to rules and scheduling, including set crew rest times, post-trip recovery days and monthly hard days off. We also had a scheduled 36-hour break every eight days. It helped that we were mostly ex-service.

Some of the most interesting and demanding flying, too.

What Falcondrvr is true.

GF

Same here and pretty much the same as what Falcondrvr said.

flynavyj
11-19-2017, 10:49 AM
I have flown a citation for 7 yrs for my current company and have flown corporate for a total of 22 yrs. I also have done the regional airline thing for a couple of years prior to the "Great Recession" and was furloughed.

In my current job I do the following:

Fly 550 hrs/yr.
Fly average of 17 days/month.
On call 24/7, except for 2 weeks vacation.
Fly 1 to 2 weekends/month.
110 overnights on average.
Keep plane and hangar clean.
Provide my own line service. (towing, fueling, lav, etc.)
Manage/schedule all maintenance.
Line up all rental cars for pax and self.
Stock galley supplies, provide catering on request.
Do all trip/flight planning.
Approve all invoices relating to plane/hangar.
Keep up all necessary subscriptions/pubs.
Arrange all training.

This is somewhat typical of the jobs that I have held on the corporate side.

My salary is in line with a Captain at a decent regional but I don,t have to commute, which is what keeps me coming back. Plus I'm in my 50's so what airline would want me :D ?

If I were young I would go the 121 route.
Hope this helps.

OMG - They keep you BUSY!

Each pilot here flies 200-250 Hours a year
7-11 Days/Month
One weekend off/Month guaranteed
two days during the week off/month guaranteed
If no weekend flights are scheduled, one crew remains on call, other crew members are now Off
2-3 overnights/month
Aircraft have in base cleaning service
Aircraft are in base stocking service
We do all flight planning and FRA's
Schedule is typically posted weeks in advance (we already have a tentative 2018 schedule for company travel)
Rental Cars and Hotels are taken care of by the scheduler
Passenger names and destination arrangements are taken care of by the scheduler
Maintenance is arranged by the management company's Chief of Maintenance who does a great job

WingAttackPlanR
12-24-2017, 12:52 PM
OMG - They keep you BUSY!



Each pilot here flies 200-250 Hours a year

7-11 Days/Month

One weekend off/Month guaranteed

two days during the week off/month guaranteed

If no weekend flights are scheduled, one crew remains on call, other crew members are now Off

2-3 overnights/month

Aircraft have in base cleaning service

Aircraft are in base stocking service

We do all flight planning and FRA's

Schedule is typically posted weeks in advance (we already have a tentative 2018 schedule for company travel)

Rental Cars and Hotels are taken care of by the scheduler

Passenger names and destination arrangements are taken care of by the scheduler

Maintenance is arranged by the management company's Chief of Maintenance who does a great job



Fly about 175 hours/year
Director of Aviation tracks and levels days worked and weekend days worked with goal of all co-captains work same amount of days. Averaged about 125 days for the first year. Weekends are a crapshoot but they strive to distribute the pain. 1/3 of those days were day-trips.
Only come in when needed to fly, given laptop to trip plan at home.
2-hour call-out 0700-1700 M-F and same if you're on for the weekend. Weekend schedule goes firm on Thursday. Usually one weekend off per month.
We clean the inside of the jets, FA stock the jets. Appearance techs do the outside.
Schedule is in flux constantly with big trips scheduled further out. A lot of trips drop with a couple days notice. A lot of the same destinations repeatedly.
Rentals and hotel handled by company. Reasonable meals to corporate card.
Really good maintenance
I have 19 days vacation year 1 and vacation days drop your trips if they encroach on a vacation day or you don't want a trip and take vacation.

Have really been considering jump to majors since my schedule won't change with seniority but pay and company are great.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SilverBull
12-27-2017, 03:55 PM
Looking for ideas for fair vacation days for a Pt 91 department. As of now we have no hard days off or set vacation days. Thanks for input

BPWI
12-27-2017, 04:12 PM
Looking for ideas for fair vacation days for a Pt 91 department. As of now we have no hard days off or set vacation days. Thanks for input

They offered 3 weeks to start at my last 2 employers. I countered at 4 and got it approved almost immediately. Not sure where your company's staffing levels are at however......

galaxy flyer
12-27-2017, 04:22 PM
What BPWI said, also, if vacation is approved, they should have access to a contract fill-in.

GF

f10a
12-27-2017, 04:35 PM
Do those vacation days count as RONs? I've heard of many that don't so if you take 3 weeks off you'll make up for those days taken off by working more in the following time. Ex.. Take 3 weeks off, now work 21 days when you'd normally work 10.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

Mink
12-27-2017, 04:45 PM
We start w 21 days vacation, at 5 years on board it bumps to 28 days. There’s no “punishment” for taking vacation, you’re off the hook those days and no payback required. We try to work it out amongst the other pilots to avoid everyone being gone at once. Approval is up to the CP but it’s usually not an issue.

galaxy flyer
12-27-2017, 06:16 PM
We did 3 weeks up to 10 years, then 4 weeks. Every month each pilot had 7 “hard days off” which were additional to vacation scheduled. One was flown home to meet vacation days scheduled. Each trip had additional post trip off days, up to 7 days, but usually 3-5 days and dependent on trip length.

GF

WingAttackPlanR
10-06-2018, 03:32 PM
Two-hour call between 7-5 weekdays and varies with the weekend schedule. Basically the company tracks total days worked and weekend days worked and tries to keep everyone even by month and year. Goal is 13 days worked (not RONs). They try their best to give you ONE weekend off a month. Sometimes that doesn’t always happen. Coming in days prior to trip plan for international trip not counted towards days worked.

Zero hard days off. No more than two pilots off at any time (which sucks when we staggered thru recurrent).

First five years... 14 days vacation plus 5 flex days to make up for the holidays you miss. First come-first serve. Vacations don’t go against your days worked unlike the 121 world. But like the 121, dropping a vacation day with a trip on schedule will be honored and the trip will be reassigned. This will happen too if you’re trip touches BOTH weekend days (only one and you’re still flying).

In August, I was not used the first week, then took a week vacation then stuck with two six-day trips back to back so everyone’s days were even. Nearly always you will be scheduled you to fly the day before your vacation starts. Good chance you’ll be assigned a 0600L departure the morning after your vacation. So you often can’t drink the evening of your last day of vacation.

f10a
10-06-2018, 06:41 PM
Vacations don’t go against your days worked unlike the 121 world. But like the 121, dropping a vacation day with a trip on schedule will be honored and the trip will be reassigned. This will happen too if you’re trip touches BOTH weekend days (only one and you’re still flying).


Isn't the point of vacation to get away from work? This sounds like the only thing you vac does is protect your days from being called in. You still have to make up for those days taken off by working more after?! An office worker who takes 3 weeks off doesn't have to make up for those 3 weeks by working weekends and overtime, why should pilots? If that's how I'm interpreting it...

WingAttackPlanR
10-07-2018, 04:34 AM
Isn't the point of vacation to get away from work? This sounds like the only thing you vac does is protect your days from being called in. You still have to make up for those days taken off by working more after?! An office worker who takes 3 weeks off doesn't have to make up for those 3 weeks by working weekends and overtime, why should pilots? If that's how I'm interpreting it...



Exactly. Our dispatcher gets 8 hard days off a month, 14 days vacay and 12 paid holidays. Hence why some of us are looking elsewhere.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BPWI
10-07-2018, 04:29 PM
Do those vacation days count as RONs? I've heard of many that don't so if you take 3 weeks off you'll make up for those days taken off by working more in the following time. Ex.. Take 3 weeks off, now work 21 days when you'd normally work 10.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

Internally, we are only expected to use our "vacation" days for Monday-Friday. If any of us need more than 7 consecutive days, we take a look at our days worked & do our best to balance the schedule accordingly. Currently we have 5 guys to a frame.

billsaw
10-09-2018, 08:17 AM
That's the reason why I've never seriously considered Part 91 flying unless it's for a large company like Coca Cola Or Walmart that have a scheduled flight department.
Flying for some guy who thinks that he-who-has-the-money-makes-the-rules no thanks.
I'd like some protection from regs, OpSpecs, GOM and oh yeah..a decent Chief Pilot.

Knowing people that have worked for both those flight departments you mentioned makes me laugh. Walmart I here has recently adjusted some stuff but there is a reason Coke is constantly hiring.

There are great flight departments and bad ones. Being run by a big corporation doesn't guarantee squat.

galaxy flyer
10-09-2018, 09:21 AM
The best 91 operators are unknown to the public eye, as bill saw said. There lots of Fortune 100 companies that run awful departments and unknown “rich guys” who are awesome to work for and have zero turnover. And there are big name operators with zero turnover.

GF

Tbpilot06
10-09-2018, 10:50 AM
The best 91 operators are unknown to the public eye, as bill saw said. There lots of Fortune 100 companies that run awful departments and unknown “rich guys” who are awesome to work for and have zero turnover. And there are big name operators with zero turnover.

GF
I’m sure you have ideas.. any way to identify those individual owners any easier?

rickair7777
10-09-2018, 08:05 PM
I’m sure you have ideas.. any way to identify those individual owners any easier?

Network is going to be the only way.

BoilerUP
10-10-2018, 04:20 AM
What's the first rule of Unicorn Bizav Pilot Job Club?

cobalt650
10-10-2018, 07:43 AM
What's the first rule of Unicorn Bizav Pilot Job Club?


Ummmmm, post it on "The Facebook?"

Rice
10-17-2018, 06:17 PM
What's the first rule of Unicorn Bizav Pilot Job Club?

Silly pilot, Unicorn's don't exist.



Or do they?

SHFP
10-19-2018, 07:32 PM
Agree about Networking. My friends and I share our contacts (Owners & Companies) and we often back each other up to cover our flying. I have introduced, then SIC qualified several friends, to fly with Owners.

captjns
10-22-2018, 05:39 AM
Network is going to be the only way.

Being selected by the cookie cutter operators ala DAL, UAL, AA is a breeze compared to being hired by the likes of, for example, IBM, Coca-Cola, GM, etc.

galaxy flyer
10-22-2018, 05:45 AM
Hopefully, you can do better than IBM, Coke-Cola, too.

GF

holygrail
10-22-2018, 03:41 PM
I spent 13 years at a 121 carrier and was faced with downsizing, going out of business etc. I was lucky to have been hired by a fortune 500 (part 91 only) in my hometown with beautiful aircraft/ maintenance. I've now worked for them 6 yrs and am seriously considering going back to a major. lll be 50 so it won't be easy. My biggest draw to the majors is the anonymity. I loved being a number that no one really cared about. As long as I showed up, no one cared! in 91, thats not how it works. my boss is a serious micromanager and the company is dragging its feet to boost our pay in order to keep up with the airlines. True, I only work about 8-10 days per month and rarely fly more than one leg per day. The money is decent and the benefits are great. I wish there was a way to embrace the situation and stay but, as a former airline guy, ill simply never be part of the "team". My coworkers suck, probably because they are threatened by me but I can't seem (after 6 yrs) to find common ground.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Some (any) career advice is appreciated.

tomgoodman
10-22-2018, 06:47 PM
I only work about 8-10 days per month and rarely fly more than one leg per day. The money is decent and the benefits are great.

If you make the switch, how long will it take you to get back to that fine QOL? Depending on your financial needs, you may have already found what many pilots wish they had. :)

Stimpy the Kat
10-23-2018, 06:36 AM
ACMI/National/Major/Legacy - 121 Ops. Hands Down. No question about it.

Schedules, Work Rules, Contracts.

> No Corporate politics.

> No ancillary Duties.

> Effectively No "Boss". ( Unless you Eff-UP. )

> Pay.

> Benefits.

> Time OFF.

> Seniority determines Career Movement/QOL. Not Politics.

> Relative stability.

But, as with everything...YMMV and this is IMHO.

Good Luck.

STK

P.S. - Here is a perfect example of the B.S. you will NEVER have to deal with in the 121 World ..... https://forums.propilotworld.com/showthread.php?122629-Corporate-pilot-with-CFI-Duties&p=1524338#post1524338

holygrail
10-23-2018, 07:24 AM
Can you post that article a different way? I don’t have access to pro pilot

Stimpy the Kat
10-23-2018, 10:10 AM
From ProPilot:

" Seeking Opinions and Thoughts on my current situation:

Quick background, Ive been flying with this 91/135 company for 2.5 years. They now want me to flight Instruct their kids and I have been hesitant for several reasons.

-We have had a pretty full flight schedule
-Their kids don't show much interest
-They expect me to do this with out any further compensation

I explained to them that they now want me to spend more time away from my own kids without being compensated on top of our already busy schedule. Their argument was they pay me a salary to fly and it shouldn't matter what airplane its in.
Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, and what are your thoughts on how I could best handle this. Im open to flight Instructing just really feel I should be fairly compensated for it."

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Typical Corporate B.S. They like to make stuff up as you go along, and you get to suffer the repercussions / stress of having to discuss trivial crap such as this. ( Unless you work for a Management Company w/a Contract, or have a well written private one signed prior to employment.)


STK

galaxy flyer
10-23-2018, 11:06 AM
True and not so much, STK. I did 5 years at Eastern, 17 years corporate and 18 full-time military technician, so I’d say fairly wide background. And, I’ll stipulate in today’s world, to do it over again, I’d take an offer at a legacy, UPS or FDX. I know lots of pilots at all of them and had 5 former UAL and AA guys working for me in a corporate operation. None went back on recall, embittered by the bankruptcy grabs. Most weren’t all that in love with the “cog in a wheel” aspect, either.

GE just closed their department, one went to Delta and has left, apparently under his own power.

There’s plenty of politics, corporate and union at an airline; I was on the MEC, so I can say politics exists everywhere, one’s exposure varies. Seniority makes things predictable, but you’re chained to the company that hired you and have no control over your future. No option to say, “see ya, going elsewhere for my crust”. I saw lots of 22-year F/Os that never made captain. Lots of 25-year junior captains, sitting reserve just like I was. I didn’t like the thought that even if I made it there, I’d be commuting, standing reserve out of crash pad away from home. I never commuted, my longest drive was 37 minutes.

Yes, it looks great now and I’d without hesitation recommend a legacy career, but many pilots won’t get the offer even in these times. I’m not unabashedly recommending corporates over legacies, but it can be viable and, for some, necessary path.

As to the ProPilotWorld guy, that’s rare to unheard of at professional gigs. Yes, it certainly happens at the sloppy local operators.

GF

rickair7777
10-23-2018, 04:46 PM
I spent 13 years at a 121 carrier and was faced with downsizing, going out of business etc. I was lucky to have been hired by a fortune 500 (part 91 only) in my hometown with beautiful aircraft/ maintenance. I've now worked for them 6 yrs and am seriously considering going back to a major. lll be 50 so it won't be easy. My biggest draw to the majors is the anonymity. I loved being a number that no one really cared about. As long as I showed up, no one cared! in 91, thats not how it works. my boss is a serious micromanager and the company is dragging its feet to boost our pay in order to keep up with the airlines. True, I only work about 8-10 days per month and rarely fly more than one leg per day. The money is decent and the benefits are great. I wish there was a way to embrace the situation and stay but, as a former airline guy, ill simply never be part of the "team". My coworkers suck, probably because they are threatened by me but I can't seem (after 6 yrs) to find common ground.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Some (any) career advice is appreciated.

If your 121 baseline was L-USA, or anyone who liquidated in the last decade, the majors are much mo betta now.

bluefishbeagle
10-23-2018, 09:55 PM
To the OP. you pretty much answered all your own questions, now all you have to do is make a decision, don't worry about second guessing it in twenty years, you will.

billsaw
10-24-2018, 03:25 AM
ACMI/National/Major/Legacy - 121 Ops. Hands Down. No question about it.

Schedules, Work Rules, Contracts.

> No Corporate politics.

> No ancillary Duties.

> Effectively No "Boss". ( Unless you Eff-UP. )

> Pay.

> Benefits.

> Time OFF.

> Seniority determines Career Movement/QOL. Not Politics.

> Relative stability.

But, as with everything...YMMV and this is IMHO.

Good Luck.

STK

P.S. - Here is a perfect example of the B.S. you will NEVER have to deal with in the 121 World ..... https://forums.propilotworld.com/showthread.php?122629-Corporate-pilot-with-CFI-Duties&p=1524338#post1524338


What he said. This is pretty much a done deal at this point all that needs to happen is for it to play out.

Corporate and private flight departments over the next few years will either be running fixed schedules for their crews like 7 on 7 off (you know like the airlines, netjets, etc) or they will have a really nice shiny bird in the hangar that doesn't move.

All you guys have to do is find another job and quit. It's really that simple. Go to the airlines and join the movement. These departments and management companies that have abused pilots for so long by keeping them on the road or on call will either change drastically or park em.

As for the pilots that enabled this behavior they can be split into two types. Exited and can't wait to get the eff out from under the thumb of their oppressive masters and have a life that doesn't involve waiting on a phone call 24/7/365. Or the the old "battered women" pilot. Just too scared to leave for fear of what's on the outside.

To those excited to leave. They are gonna be very pleased at what they find. To the chickens (would use another term but can't) that loved to be abused... Have fun with that and good luck! Just remember your guy won't change until you do. So enjoy the beatings:D

Somebody told me the a long time ago that sometimes the best way to move up is to move on. That's what it will take.

billsaw
10-24-2018, 04:12 AM
Hopefully, you can do better than IBM, Coke-Cola, too.

GF

Speaking of crappy flight departments hiring. This one is a revolving door. Most recent posting. Used to be such a great place to work. Now....

https://cocacola.appvault.com/jobs/R-19919/cocacolacompanyRMS/atl/aviation/pilot-captain-domestic/?utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=jobboard&source=Indeed.com&sourceType=PREMIUM_POST_SITE&fbclid=IwAR3Pn9OQZYRPSzeHTPb_j8vjtTN7MN4zRSizPWGF0 3YogI0W_zvwS1U5g0w

galaxy flyer
10-24-2018, 05:38 AM
The good ones I know of have had fixed schedules for years, four or five pilots, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off and they know exactly what they’re doing for the year. Not infrequently, their 2 weeks on might only involve a short trip. The plane’s hangared 30 minutes away from their homes and pay is B737 captain. Another one’s owner has a pretty fixed schedule, pay is 300k+, all commuting is expensed, and the owner’s big annual vacation is a freebie for him, expense the family coming along. And he gets 3 weeks, contract pilot or scheduled maintenance done.

Good ones will go on, poor to middling operations will see turnover, high training costs or rightfully blow away. I’ve seen this act before in the past forty years.

GF

billsaw
10-24-2018, 06:32 AM
The good ones I know of have had fixed schedules for years, four or five pilots, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off and they know exactly what they’re doing for the year. Not infrequently, their 2 weeks on might only involve a short trip. The plane’s hangared 30 minutes away from their homes and pay is B737 captain. Another one’s owner has a pretty fixed schedule, pay is 300k+, all commuting is expensed, and the owner’s big annual vacation is a freebie for him, expense the family coming along. And he gets 3 weeks, contract pilot or scheduled maintenance done.

Good ones will go on, poor to middling operations will see turnover, high training costs or rightfully blow away. I’ve seen this act before in the past forty years.

GF

Nobody has seen it get as bad/good (depending on what side of the fence your on) as it's going to. This is unprecedented.

Those guys like you mentioned are gonna be fine. Operators like that probably only employ maybe 1% of corporate pilots though. And that's a big maybe. To the other 99% they better get on board or get left behind. Because once all these skilled captain qualified guys go to the airlines they ain't coming back.

galaxy flyer
10-24-2018, 10:39 AM
I’ve heard “unprecedented” before, color me dubious. 1965-66 had airlines panicked over where would the next generation come from, advertising, training sponsorships. After the dead decade of the 1970s, by 1985, it was another panic. In 1980, I was peeling resumes off the Citation I flew during pre-flights. AA’s two-tier contract caused huge hiring, on my God where are we going to get pilots. I was at HPN in 1984, flying corporate and the chief pilots were panicking, stealing from other departments after years of “will you fly for me just for the experience”. 1999 looked darn near as “unprecedented”; loads of hiring, declining military pilot population due to post-Cold War drawdown, peace everywhere, exploding contracts, Vietnam generation on the cusp of retiring.

As Harold Macmillan said on what effects politics, “Events, my dear boy, events”.

GF

RI830
10-24-2018, 11:12 AM
What he said. This is pretty much a done deal at this point all that needs to happen is for it to play out.

Corporate and private flight departments over the next few years will either be running fixed schedules for their crews like 7 on 7 off (you know like the airlines, netjets, etc) or they will have a really nice shiny bird in the hangar that doesn't move.

All you guys have to do is find another job and quit. It's really that simple. Go to the airlines and join the movement. These departments and management companies that have abused pilots for so long by keeping them on the road or on call will either change drastically or park em.

As for the pilots that enabled this behavior they can be split into two types. Exited and can't wait to get the eff out from under the thumb of their oppressive masters and have a life that doesn't involve waiting on a phone call 24/7/365. Or the the old "battered women" pilot. Just too scared to leave for fear of what's on the outside.

To those excited to leave. They are gonna be very pleased at what they find. To the chickens (would use another term but can't) that loved to be abused... Have fun with that and good luck! Just remember your guy won't change until you do. So enjoy the beatings:D

Somebody told me the a long time ago that sometimes the best way to move up is to move on. That's what it will take.

You paint with a very broad brush. Corporate ops do vary widely from slave shops to Fortune 50. But to call all who enjoy the corporate world “chickens, abused women and slaves” is ridiculous.
Many have what they want out of their corporate jobs and have no desire to start over and deal with the airline life. For others, airline life on the menopause missle to Tokyo is their wet dream.....Good for them
But for those who allow themselves to be stuck in the rut of a mediocre or even bad corporate outfit, let their poor choice effect them. No need to lump all into their bag of bad choices.

RI830
10-24-2018, 11:13 AM
If your 121 baseline was L-USA, or anyone who liquidated in the last decade, the majors are much mo betta now.

Reread post #45. GF didn’t fly for L-USA or recent bought out carriers.

galaxy flyer
10-24-2018, 12:04 PM
Reread post #45. GF didn’t fly for L-USA or recent bought out carriers.

I don’t think rickair777, was referring to moi.

GF

squatcher1
10-24-2018, 04:06 PM
UPS has hired several in their 50s and one 60 year old I believe.
Not that I would recommend a change, just letting you know it wouldn't be hopeless.

They won't hire without a 4 year degree.

RI830
10-24-2018, 04:16 PM
I don’t think rickair777, was referring to moi.

GF

Ha! You are correct. His quote was for someone else. His post was right after yours and I assumed.
The idiot has been found....it was me.

billsaw
10-24-2018, 05:55 PM
I’ve heard “unprecedented” before, color me dubious. 1965-66 had airlines panicked over where would the next generation come from, advertising, training sponsorships. After the dead decade of the 1970s, by 1985, it was another panic. In 1980, I was peeling resumes off the Citation I flew during pre-flights. AA’s two-tier contract caused huge hiring, on my God where are we going to get pilots. I was at HPN in 1984, flying corporate and the chief pilots were panicking, stealing from other departments after years of “will you fly for me just for the experience”. 1999 looked darn near as “unprecedented”; loads of hiring, declining military pilot population due to post-Cold War drawdown, peace everywhere, exploding contracts, Vietnam generation on the cusp of retiring.

As Harold Macmillan said on what effects politics, “Events, my dear boy, events”.

GF

I can understand your pessimism. But you have to admit this is much different from any of those events if looked at objectively. One main difference would be the cost of flying and college relatively speaking is much higher. Much much higher. I am talking about adjusted for inflation much much higher. And speaking of the military the Air Force has a shortage. When have you ever heard of that since WW2.

So until they pay in line with what it cost to enter the field the pipeline will remain dry. Even when they open the spigot it will take many years for the pipeline to fill and the experience levels to come back. Not to mention there is a lack of instructors to even fill the pipe. Which is just one more issue.

When the money flows in the void will be filled I have no doubt. That takes time and the captains in the biz jet side will have vanished. You can already see it happening.

galaxy flyer
10-24-2018, 06:30 PM
The military isn’t short of pilots, they’re short of experienced, especially fighter pilots. There was a shortage in the military every time there was a boom in civilian hiring—Vietnam had a shortage of fighter pilots so all kinds of backgrounds were fodder for tactical air. Big shortage during the Reagan build up in the mid-80s; overage during the ‘90s drawdown, then another build up after 9/11. In 1998, I was a squadron DO wondering where was I going to get pilots, airlines hiring and guys saying, I’m leaving after probation. That didn’t work out so well. The cycle repeats itself.

Now, I’m still in touch with lots of corporate departments. Just back from the NBAA. Chief pilots are concerned about finding experienced pilots or retaining inexperienced ones long enough to make them experienced and keep them. Stealing guys with more money is a problem and HR doesn’t want to hear “more money, more money” until it’s a mild disaster. So, turnover is an issue. I hired my replacement who came from a well-known NY department; she’s hired several ACMI guys who have good international experience.

Somewhere, I’ll find my old Flying magazines with ads from UA, EA, BN, TWA all offering $3 million careers to anyone who applies.

GF

billsaw
10-25-2018, 01:18 AM
The military isn’t short of pilots, they’re short of experienced, especially fighter pilots. There was a shortage in the military every time there was a boom in civilian hiring—Vietnam had a shortage of fighter pilots so all kinds of backgrounds were fodder for tactical air. Big shortage during the Reagan build up in the mid-80s; overage during the ‘90s drawdown, then another build up after 9/11. In 1998, I was a squadron DO wondering where was I going to get pilots, airlines hiring and guys saying, I’m leaving after probation. That didn’t work out so well. The cycle repeats itself.

Now, I’m still in touch with lots of corporate departments. Just back from the NBAA. Chief pilots are concerned about finding experienced pilots or retaining inexperienced ones long enough to make them experienced and keep them. Stealing guys with more money is a problem and HR doesn’t want to hear “more money, more money” until it’s a mild disaster. So, turnover is an issue. I hired my replacement who came from a well-known NY department; she’s hired several ACMI guys who have good international experience.

Somewhere, I’ll find my old Flying magazines with ads from UA, EA, BN, TWA all offering $3 million careers to anyone who applies.

GF

A shortage is a shortage and the AF says they are short 2,000 now. Last year it was 1,000 so the needle is moving the wrong way. Considering how few aircraft they operate compared to the Vietnam Era or the Reagan era that is pretty high. Like everything else when there is a shortage more work gets piled on those that are still there driving more out the door.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/11/the-militarys-stunning-fighter-pilot-shortage-one-in-four-billets-is-empty/

On the private side I agree. But in my experience it's not an 50k a year HR department person that would approve 200k+ pilot salaries it's a VP, Director of Aviation, or an owner (on the private side). Now they like pawn off the bad news to HR and blame it on them but they have no say on a flight departments budget. Again that's my experience. Funny thing is after it turns into a mild disaster and the loyal folks that actually care have departed it cost them so much more than just money. You and I know that but the people getting bonuses on their bottom line don't or they don't care and just want their bonus.

In my opinion the chief pilots and DO's need to be going to management and saying this is what I need to do my job and staff this place properly. When they say no they should resign from management. No way I would try to run a flight department without the proper tools. You would be beating your head against the wall daily. Why do that? If upper management doesn't want to support you that kinda tells you where you stand. No use in stressing yourself out for people that don't care.

Anyhow it will all sort itself out. People will leave. Money will come. People will come back. Rinse, wash repeat. Just sad to see some really good places suffer and go down the tubes because some people are turning a blind eye.

galaxy flyer
10-25-2018, 05:47 AM
In my opinion the chief pilots and DO's need to be going to management and saying this is what I need to do my job and staff this place properly. When they say no they should resign from management. No way I would try to run a flight department without the proper tools. You would be beating your head against the wall daily. Why do that? If upper management doesn't want to support you that kinda tells you where you stand. No use in stressing yourself out for people that don't care.

And that’s why I’m writing from retirement.

Tactical pilot manning has always been the short pole in the tent. Standards out of UPT are high, grads in the last 15 years have frequently opted other assignments when they could due to the high tempo, and an experienced flight lead/IP takes years to grow and days to lose. It’s a serious problem and won’t be fixed anytime soon. Forty years ago, guys in my class weren’t interested in tactical air due to the commitment.


GF

Bahamasflyer
10-25-2018, 09:16 AM
So far this discussion has been mostly about pay and days off, but what about other critical items like “same occupation” LTD as well as ASAP program?

It is my understanding that most 121 carriers offer decent “same occupation “ LTD until age 65 if one loses his/her medical.

Can the corporate operators come close to matching that?

What about the ASAP programs that every 121 has?

galaxy flyer
10-25-2018, 10:58 AM
ASAP is very particular to 121, but there are similar reporting processes. We had a FOQA program and a gatekeeper. It’s a rare flight department large enough to run a ASAP. We also had an SMS program thru an outside contract. I found the FOQA quite helpful.

LTD is going to be tough, as those types of programs are unheard of in business outside of 121 contracts. If you’re a worker bee at ABC Corp and become physically unable to work, the best you’ll see is a one-year disability. Loss of license typically is handled individually, often a non-flying position inside the company. Even the US Government doesn’t offer a career long disability program.

GF

BPWI
10-25-2018, 05:49 PM
So far this discussion has been mostly about pay and days off, but what about other critical items like “same occupation” LTD as well as ASAP program?

It is my understanding that most 121 carriers offer decent “same occupation “ LTD until age 65 if one loses his/her medical.

Can the corporate operators come close to matching that?

What about the ASAP programs that every 121 has?

In the last year alone, I've gone through 2 separate interviewing cycles and both companies offered LTD. Times are a changin'-

billsaw
10-25-2018, 06:36 PM
So far this discussion has been mostly about pay and days off, but what about other critical items like “same occupation” LTD as well as ASAP program?

It is my understanding that most 121 carriers offer decent “same occupation “ LTD until age 65 if one loses his/her medical.

Can the corporate operators come close to matching that?

What about the ASAP programs that every 121 has?

For the disability they could offer that easy. It's just money. You can buy your own policy through Harvey Watt and so can any flight department for it's pilots. It really isn't that expensive depending on what you want.

We checked years ago and it was somewhere between $200-$300 per month per pilot depending on what payouts you wanted, age, and when you wanted it to kick in after the loss of medical.

From a management perspective that is small potatoes. The massive raises most departments are going to have to give pilots along with doubling the number of pilots to give a schedule will cost way more than the LTD stuff. But it is a nice carrot to dangle!

Imagine a flight department now with two pilots per plane with a salary of say 120k and 110k for something like a Challenger totaling 230k. (I am just making them up we all know they vary)

Pretty soon they will be paying two guys 180k and two 160k or more totaling 680k. That is the reality of the situation. They are gonna need to triple or quadruple their pilot labor budget.

All the perks like $3,500 a year for LTD are just a drop in the bucket if they want to keep their aircraft crewed with good guys. But I agree it is one they need to do to compete because it is on a lot of peoples minds and rightfully so.

billsaw
10-25-2018, 06:50 PM
On a side note if I recall correctly there were some bad things on the disability.

I want to preface this by saying this was around four or five years ago and it was Harvey Watt. Things may have changed and you may be able to work out different and better deals. But here were some of the negatives you will want to look into.

The payout was for a percentage of what you made but capped at 6k per month. Now being that this will not be taxed it would be like making 8 or 9k lets say but if your a guy making 15 or 18 per month it's quite the pay cut and there was no option to buy more. Maybe you could buy 2 policies but then that would get expensive. Pretty sure airline pilots have a better payout. Maybe someone can weigh in.

The other problem was your stuck at 6k for the life of the policy which will pay out until your 65. No cost of living increase for inflation. So lets say someone at 40 loses their medical. Well today in 2018 you can survive on that without to much of a problem unless you are prone to bad financial moves but 20 years from now when your 60 $6,000 may equal a middle of the road car payment. That's an issue.

Maybe things have changed but best I can remember that's what they told me. If anyone checks on it or knows let us know what the new deals are because I am working with dated info here.

BPWI
10-26-2018, 05:40 AM
On a side note if I recall correctly there were some bad things on the disability.

I want to preface this by saying this was around four or five years ago and it was Harvey Watt. Things may have changed and you may be able to work out different and better deals. But here were some of the negatives you will want to look into.

The payout was for a percentage of what you made but capped at 6k per month. Now being that this will not be taxed it would be like making 8 or 9k lets say but if your a guy making 15 or 18 per month it's quite the pay cut and there was no option to buy more. Maybe you could buy 2 policies but then that would get expensive. Pretty sure airline pilots have a better payout. Maybe someone can weigh in.

The other problem was your stuck at 6k for the life of the policy which will pay out until your 65. No cost of living increase for inflation. So lets say someone at 40 loses their medical. Well today in 2018 you can survive on that without to much of a problem unless you are prone to bad financial moves but 20 years from now when your 60 $6,000 may equal a middle of the road car payment. That's an issue.

Maybe things have changed but best I can remember that's what they told me. If anyone checks on it or knows let us know what the new deals are because I am working with dated info here.

The 2 group plans paid out 5K and the other 60% of your salary up to 10K a month. I never got the cost from them, but it would have been a 10K/mo payout with that particular position. The issue is that most group plans only cover that for 2 years. After that, you must be unable to perform ANY occupation to continue the benefit. Devil is always in the details.

f10a
10-26-2018, 06:38 AM
Exactly. Our dispatcher gets 8 hard days off a month, 14 days vacay and 12 paid holidays. Hence why some of us are looking elsewhere.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkCurious about how this issue could be corrected. How should a proper vacation policy at a 91 with no hard days off be? I think they your vacation days should count toward the RONs but can't seem to get anyone to understand this concept. As it is now, you take 5 days off and you will still end up averaging 12 RONs per month instead of actually taking a break from work like a 121 pilot.

Any thoughts on how this could be better explained?

galaxy flyer
10-26-2018, 07:09 AM
In my department, we scheduled 7 hard days off each month, usually consecutively, but could be split. Vacation after 3 years was 3 weeks and after 10 years four weeks. Since, just about everywhere pilots are the stray electron, those numbers are really 15 days or 20 days. No one in most businesses are assumed to take vacation days on the weekends. Sooooo, if a pilot took two weeks vacation, the “hard off” days were applied to the weekend days. Then, if one came off vacation and the plane left the day before, it was pretty easy to have three or four weeks off. Throw in scheduled maintenance, I was off once almost two months. A friend of mine was off the entire summer, without vacation, while his Global was in for an 8C check.

It’s a different brand of flying for different folks. I once had 3 days off in Berlin, no chance of going anywhere. Part way thru a furious argument with scheduling about staying at the Ritz-Carleton near Brandenburg Gate. We wanted the points at the Marriott, but Jepp had a deal on rooms at the Ritz. I finally gave up and stayed at the Ritz and expensed the cocktails at the bar.

GF

billsaw
10-26-2018, 07:20 AM
The 2 group plans paid out 5K and the other 60% of your salary up to 10K a month. I never got the cost from them, but it would have been a 10K/mo payout with that particular position. The issue is that most group plans only cover that for 2 years. After that, you must be unable to perform ANY occupation to continue the benefit. Devil is always in the details.

Was that through Harvey Watt? What year were you quoted this?

Here is the Harvey Watt info

http://harveywatt.com/insurance-plans-and-rates/loss-of-medical-license-disability-insurance/?_vsrefdom=adwords&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3buGhLek3gIVEHR-Ch2m5AHbEAAYASAAEgI00vD_BwE

Here is the extended long term policy.

http://harveywatt.com/uploads/files/AHA-XLTDSymetraComplete06-2013_37c2b7af18a7.pdf


If I recall correctly I looked at buying 2 plans. The first was the Harvey Watt plan that kicked in after one year and paid out for 48 months which essentially took you to 5 years. The second plan started at year 5 and went to 65 which was the extended plan.

So the plan we looked at started one year after losing the medical and takes you to 65. It was pretty reasonable just with no inflation adjustment down the road it will get tight.

Also if you lose your medical they are going to try to do everything possible to help you get it back so they can avoid paying out which is good.

billsaw
10-26-2018, 07:46 AM
In my department, we scheduled 7 hard days off each month, usually consecutively, but could be split. Vacation after 3 years was 3 weeks and after 10 years four weeks. Since, just about everywhere pilots are the stray electron, those numbers are really 15 days or 20 days. No one in most businesses are assumed to take vacation days on the weekends. Sooooo, if a pilot took two weeks vacation, the “hard off” days were applied to the weekend days. Then, if one came off vacation and the plane left the day before, it was pretty easy to have three or four weeks off. Throw in scheduled maintenance, I was off once almost two months. A friend of mine was off the entire summer, without vacation, while his Global was in for an 8C check.

It’s a different brand of flying for different folks. I once had 3 days off in Berlin, no chance of going anywhere. Part way thru a furious argument with scheduling about staying at the Ritz-Carleton near Brandenburg Gate. We wanted the points at the Marriott, but Jepp had a deal on rooms at the Ritz. I finally gave up and stayed at the Ritz and expensed the cocktails at the bar.

GF

This is the kinda stuff that would fly in the past and be considered a good job. Not anymore. At the airlines you can work 3 days on and 4 days off and be at home on the 4 days off. 7 on 7 (14 on 14 off) off type of schedules will be all that works in the future of corporate. It'll be that or waiving goodby. And it's stuff like that that ****es off corporate pilots. Days off down range aren't days off.

galaxy flyer
10-26-2018, 08:36 AM
We also had post trip days off, so the most we could work was 16 days a month and the average was about 12-15 days. I agree with the 7/7 or a variation on it, but some operations can’t work that way. I did airline, boring and the beat schedule was 3 on/3 off; I felt like I was either coming or leaving all the time.

Days off down range are NOT days off, but if you make the most of it, they can be good stories that you won’t get at the office or on vacation. Who’d vacation in Petropavlovsk or Trancoso, BR? I’ve had some fine layovers in Beirut or Cape Town, but I sure wouldn’t buy a ticket there. I’m a tediophobe.

GF

BPWI
10-26-2018, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE=billsaw;2698033]Was that through Harvey Watt? What year were you quoted this?QUOTE]

I was quoted both of these this year. And to be completely honest, I have no idea who they plans were applied with. I just wanted brief detail as I was still in the middle of the hiring process.



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