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iahflyr
05-25-2017, 09:40 AM
Any news on the new Skywest pay package that just passed?

Now that we have Regional sub-forums, I figured I would start a separate thread, instead of making people read through hundreds of posts on the now antequated and long Skywest 2.0 thread.


Squallrider
05-25-2017, 09:43 AM
Any news on the new Skywest pay package that just passed?

Now that we have Regional sub-forums, I figured I would start a separate thread, instead of making people read through hundreds of posts on the now antequated and long Skywest 2.0 thread.

It's only passed at the SAPA level not voted on by pilots yet. Seems like a 1% raise, and soft landings (ppl can come to Skywest and maintain longevity e.g. 10 year republic FO can be 10 year FO day one at Skywest) . Not many details are available but so far seems like a tiny raise to maybe get more flying.

rickair7777
05-25-2017, 09:49 AM
It's only passed at the SAPA level not voted on by pilots yet. Seems like a 1% raise, and soft landings (ppl can come to Skywest and maintain longevity e.g. 10 year republic FO can be 10 year FO day one at Skywest) . Not many details are available but so far seems like a tiny raise to maybe get more flying.


Soft landing for OTHER airlines??? WTF???

How about we start them at year one pay and use that money to give a raise to folks who have put in ten years at SKW???

I might be OK with that for XJT. Maybe.


amcnd
05-25-2017, 09:56 AM
Passed the reps 18-1.. No details for a week or so.. if i was to guess. Better profit sharing, better 401k. Probably some soft landing program.. but bet pay rate raises are slim, but they make up for it in the guaranteed profit program..

RunningB
05-25-2017, 09:57 AM
Soft landing for OTHER airlines??? WTF???

How about we start them at year one pay and use that money to give a raise to folks who have put in ten years at SKW???

I might be OK with that for XJT. Maybe.

Soft landing pay for OAL guys would be an absolute joke.. like you say - MAYBE XJT... maybe.

It must be quite the privilege to be allowed to work at such an esteemed place... as long as they don't nix the turkey. Or maybe make soft landers/new hires buy it for everybody else

tcco94
05-25-2017, 10:00 AM
How are you guys assuming it's a tiny raise? We literally have heard nothing and people keep making these assumptions. Why would sapa vote 18-1 on a tiny raise?

I just don't understand people that keep saying "this is crap" when the email literally said no details at all.....

And I understand history repeats itself but people already have pitchforks armed and fires started!!! Why are people arguing and getting frustrated over rumors and a vaguely written email...nothing to talk about. They shouldn't even have sent the email.

NotMe
05-25-2017, 10:09 AM
Soft landings is already in the PPM for ex "SkyWest Inc." pilots - e.g. ExpressJet...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

prc4prc
05-25-2017, 10:29 AM
Curious if you live in a domicile why would rank and file trade pay for more flying? We already have more flying than we can cover... ie, never enough reserves to drop trips. Wouldn't more flying make this worse. And where would the aircrafts come from? The desert? Oh boy!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

rickair7777
05-25-2017, 10:29 AM
Profit sharing is nice, but I'd rather have a straight-up raise that's not as subject to economic conditions. Or win-win items like max per diem.

Squallrider
05-25-2017, 10:36 AM
Does anyone find it coincidence all the rumors of 4 new bases just before this? Tiny raise but in exchange some of you could maybe live in base ...someday

ecam
05-25-2017, 10:55 AM
"Soft Landing" is the disposal plan for both divisions of XJT in 2018.

Utah
05-25-2017, 11:39 AM
Does anyone find it coincidence all the rumors of 4 new bases just before this? Tiny raise but in exchange some of you could maybe live in base ...someday

No coincidence at all. Same with the rumors of more aircraft. All out of the management playbook. It happens every time.


The only thing we need to hear now is if we don't take this pay package we will shrink.

hawk21
05-25-2017, 11:51 AM
"Soft Landing" is the disposal plan for both divisions of XJT in 2018.

Yuuuuuup. Nailed it. Not merging seniority lists or getting ALPA. So this is the "compromise"

word302
05-25-2017, 01:17 PM
How are you guys assuming it's a tiny raise? We literally have heard nothing and people keep making these assumptions. Why would sapa vote 18-1 on a tiny raise?

I just don't understand people that keep saying "this is crap" when the email literally said no details at all.....

And I understand history repeats itself but people already have pitchforks armed and fires started!!! Why are people arguing and getting frustrated over rumors and a vaguely written email...nothing to talk about. They shouldn't even have sent the email.

LOL. You must be new.

word302
05-25-2017, 01:19 PM
Curious if you live in a domicile why would rank and file trade pay for more flying? We already have more flying than we can cover... ie, never enough reserves to drop trips. Wouldn't more flying make this worse. And where would the aircrafts come from? The desert? Oh boy!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Smart people would not trade pay for flying no matter where they lived, but we're talking about pilots.

tcco94
05-25-2017, 02:01 PM
LOL. You must be new.

LOL.

So, anyways, where is your guys evidence it's a 1% contract? History is all you got?

Why is there even a thread? We literally have nothing to talk about except argue what it could be....but I'm sorry I have to be here for a set amount of years to respond.

hawk21
05-25-2017, 02:32 PM
LOL.

So, anyways, where is your guys evidence it's a 1% contract? History is all you got?



History has a tendency to repeat itself.

WesternSkies
05-25-2017, 02:57 PM
LOL.

So, anyways, where is your guys evidence it's a 1% contract? History is all you got?

Why is there even a thread? We literally have nothing to talk about except argue what it could be....but I'm sorry I have to be here for a set amount of years to respond.

SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.

tcco94
05-25-2017, 03:21 PM
History has a tendency to repeat itself.

I understand that so why don't we wait until we see if still does to get upset?

tcco94
05-25-2017, 03:21 PM
SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.
Thanks for a real answer!

hawk21
05-25-2017, 04:44 PM
I understand that so why don't we wait until we see if still does to get upset?

Because everyone knows exactly what is coming.

Squallrider
05-25-2017, 05:04 PM
No coincidence at all. Same with the rumors of more aircraft. All out of the management playbook. It happens every time.


The only thing we need to hear now is if we don't take this pay package we will shrink.

It was sarcasm ;)

Turbosina
05-25-2017, 05:29 PM
LOL.

So, anyways, where is your guys evidence it's a 1% contract? History is all you got?

Why is there even a thread? We literally have nothing to talk about except argue what it could be....but I'm sorry I have to be here for a set amount of years to respond.

Dude... If you'd been here for the last pay package fiasco you'd know exactly what everyone else is talking about. You'll see what we mean. I promise.

TimetoClimb
05-25-2017, 05:45 PM
Dude... If you'd been here for the last pay package fiasco you'd know exactly what everyone else is talking about. You'll see what we mean. I promise.

He's not the only bright eyed and bushy tailed new hire. Like him, I got in during a rising tide and so far haven't experienced the career misfortunes that many of my colleagues assuredly have.
While I have no complaints about the overall experience as a new hire , I do think that skywest has begun to fall behind on competitive compensation, and sure we may be filling classes but are they the best candidates or simply warm bodies that somehow manage to stumble their way through aqp? I'm hopeful skywest managment sees the value in investing in the pilot group to attract the last remaining best candidates.

Though I'm not holding my breath.

tcco94
05-25-2017, 07:20 PM
Dude... If you'd been here for the last pay package fiasco you'd know exactly what everyone else is talking about. You'll see what we mean. I promise.
Our history of contract negotiations aren't hidden. My point wasn't to say history doesn't repeat itself. The point was people are arguing and fighting over an email that has no meaning. And we have an entire thread geared around talking about details of the email?! What details? I get it vote no because first offer is low ball.

Clearly I'm playing devils advocate that I don't have my pitchfork ready and attitude to fight everything on this forum?? I could really care less about first year pay. Anyone who came to this company for first year pay wasn't really smart. We've been the bottom of competition for a while so clearly assuming that's what I want is wrong. I have interests in pay for long term as well.

Rocksteady
05-25-2017, 07:21 PM
SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.

Isn't that what companies were saying back when they paid $19/hour?

SMACFUM
05-25-2017, 07:23 PM
SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.

Ding! Ding! Ding! 100% Correct

WesternSkies
05-25-2017, 07:34 PM
Isn't that what companies were saying back when they paid $19/hour?

Indeed, but if you read United's 10K they point out to investors that while they are purchasing fewer block hours of contract feed year over year the total cost of regional feed is increasing, negating any cost savings.
It's incremental.

zondaracer
05-25-2017, 07:37 PM
If you guys read the last InPrint Q1 2017, MT specifically talks about cost and economics being factors in securing new flying. This was basically him saying "hey, if we pay you less, we can get more flying."

SkyWest Airlines - InPrintQ1-2017online (http://skywest.uberflip.com/i/808119-inprintq1-2017online/1?)

hawk21
05-25-2017, 07:40 PM
Our history of contract negotiations aren't hidden. My point wasn't to say history doesn't repeat itself. The point was people are arguing and fighting over an email that has no meaning. And we have an entire thread geared around talking about details of the email?! What details? I get it vote no because first offer is low ball.

Clearly I'm playing devils advocate that I don't have my pitchfork ready and attitude to fight everything on this forum?? I could really care less about first year pay. Anyone who came to this company for first year pay wasn't really smart. We've been the bottom of competition for a while so clearly assuming that's what I want is wrong. I have interests in pay for long term as well.

The only word you needed to read to see where this whole path was going was "extension". Case closed.

tcco94
05-25-2017, 08:29 PM
The only word you needed to read to see where this whole path was going was "extension". Case closed.
Yup, valid point.

Is offline
05-25-2017, 08:33 PM
SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.

Well knowing that a 3rd year mechanic makes more than a 10 year captain I don't feel that the mechanics at OO are hurting.

Rocksteady
05-25-2017, 08:57 PM
Indeed, but if you read United's 10K they point out to investors that while they are purchasing fewer block hours of contract feed year over year the total cost of regional feed is increasing, negating any cost savings.
It's incremental.

That's the whole point man, it should cost them more. For our sake it should cost them more. DL made 6bil, United 3 Bil, they can afford to pay a little more and by the way we still are way cheaper than it costs them to staff a route. They have other reasons for taking back the flying, it's not because we're too expensive

Bombardier Stev
05-25-2017, 09:20 PM
Pilots are a commodity, just like fuel, and food, etc. I don't understand why pilots always think that they are the ones that should be the exception to the law of supply and demand. There are not enough pilots out there so the price should go up. How much Skywest, or United, or Delta makes is not a factor

I don't think Safeway is going to cut your grocery bill because Skywest doesn't make enough money to even give the pilots a cost of living raise. Endeavor is paying 20k per pilot bonus for all their pilots I believe. Envoy is paying 15k or something similar, AirWisconsin is giving a 39k bonus to go there with a type and 31k without.

On the other hand, a 1% raise to a 2nd year Skywest FO making 37.50 per hour would be 37 cents an hour. Pilots could do better if they just go through the plane at the end of the flight and pick up the dropped change.

The other airlines have raised their pay dramatically and they all need to if they want guys to come in the industry. Skywest is too big to be the lowest paid.

I suggest you let them keep the 37 cents and demand a raise for all the pilots, not just the first year. if not then everyone should just switch airlines each year.

Winston
05-25-2017, 11:47 PM
That's the whole point man, it should cost them more. For our sake it should cost them more. DL made 6bil, United 3 Bil, they can afford to pay a little more and by the way we still are way cheaper than it costs them to staff a route. They have other reasons for taking back the flying, it's not because we're too expensive

Two things:

- You shouldn't be proud of that statement.
- "For your sake" you should hope that they take as much of that flying back, hire you to do it, but pay you three times the salary you make now.

You understand that the long term growth and success of the regional airlines hurts you individually, and the newest entrants to the industry generally, the most right?

BrewCity
05-26-2017, 06:13 AM
SkyW simply does not make the money to make it rain.
Do you want that 20K annual bonus that others get- A 50K bonus to each 4250 pilots on an average year wipes out every penny of profit this company makes. Dispatchers are in short supply and turning over to mainline just like pilots so they need more $. Mechanics are in the same boat so they need $.
Then their is Wall Street. They need bigger dividends and millions of dollars in crappy buy backs. The money isn't there.

Atlas Air Cargo pilots are exactly in the same boat as the rest of the contract world....the whole business is built on cheap labor.

For decades airlines were built on $20/bbl oil too, but when prices increased the successful airlines adapted.

Seminole00
05-26-2017, 04:06 PM
Vote No

:)

skiK2
05-26-2017, 07:04 PM
Well knowing that a 3rd year mechanic makes more than a 10 year captain I don't feel that the mechanics at OO are hurting.

Wrong. So wrong.

rickair7777
05-26-2017, 08:44 PM
Well knowing that a 3rd year mechanic makes more than a 10 year captain I don't feel that the mechanics at OO are hurting.

No they don't, not even close unless there pulling epic OT.

Ratso
05-26-2017, 08:54 PM
Well knowing that a 3rd year mechanic makes more than a 10 year captain I don't feel that the mechanics at OO are hurting.

I'm a 10 year captain and will easily make $110k, no over time. Do 3 year mechanics really make that? I'll go back to school and switch jobs tomorrow.

Is offline
05-27-2017, 01:36 AM
Wrong. So wrong.

What is wrong with the truth? Mechanics know what the pilots make why should the pilot group not know what the mechanics make? The 3rd year mechanic I know is a friend of mine and I have thought about giving up the flying side to be home every night(I am also a mechanic).

gsphuntr
05-27-2017, 04:07 AM
They may make more than a 10 year Brasilia captain at 2006 pay rates, but, I'm afraid you're severely misinformed...

zondaracer
05-27-2017, 04:22 AM
Starting pay for a SkyWest mechanic is $17-23 an hour. What do they make at year 3?

gsphuntr
05-27-2017, 05:06 AM
I'm long gone - but, that info was all in SWOL under "manuals" "pubs" somewhere buried in the online policy manuals. The mechanics have different "steps" "overrides" Etc., but, I want to say the average mechanic makes in the high 20s-mid 30s an hour. Different bumps for leads, sups, specialist etc.. a long time maxed out mechanic can easily clear 100k+..3rd year? More like 60-80k maybe....

Utah
05-27-2017, 07:14 AM
The info on MX pay is available for anyone that wants to look at it. The 3 year/10 year claim is highly doubtful.

One interesting thing to note is that they are getting 4-5% annual increases to their rates compared to our typical 1% or less.

Is offline
05-27-2017, 08:19 AM
The info on MX pay is available for anyone that wants to look at it. The 3 year/10 year claim is highly doubtful.

One interesting thing to note is that they are getting 4-5% annual increases to their rates compared to our typical 1% or less.

I'm not saying he didn't work overtime to get there, but his base pay is well beyond what the pilots are making, and they are offering them raises again.

Utah
05-27-2017, 09:43 AM
I'm not saying he didn't work overtime to get there, but his base pay is well beyond what the pilots are making, and they are offering them raises again.

Well a 10 year captain sitting reserve, never breaking guarantee, and getting bonuses on the smaller side would make around $83k a year minimum. That would take nearly $40 an hour for someone working the typical 40 hour week. Even at $30 an hour with 10 or so hours a week of overtime you'd only be getting about what a captain would be getting sitting at home all of the time.

Your typical 10 year captain is making a lot more than $83K as well.

Is offline
05-27-2017, 12:47 PM
Well a 10 year captain sitting reserve, never breaking guarantee, and getting bonuses on the smaller side would make around $83k a year minimum. That would take nearly $40 an hour for someone working the typical 40 hour week. Even at $30 an hour with 10 or so hours a week of overtime you'd only be getting about what a captain would be getting sitting at home all of the time.

Your typical 10 year captain is making a lot more than $83K as well.

Well as a 3rd year mechanic he is making 6 figures, and the mechanics now just just as many bonuses as we do. The point is that pilots might someday figure out that they do have some worth and they can get paid.

APMechXJ
05-27-2017, 01:20 PM
quick question do you peeps at SkyWest get S2 passes on DL every year??.. thanks in advance

LAX2MSP
05-27-2017, 01:31 PM
quick question do you peeps at SkyWest get S2 passes on DL every year??.. thanks in advance

Not on mainline. Our metal we get 6 a year I think

Utah
05-27-2017, 01:35 PM
Well as a 3rd year mechanic he is making 6 figures, and the mechanics now just just as many bonuses as we do. The point is that pilots might someday figure out that they do have some worth and they can get paid.

At least the mechanics aren't sitting around saying we better not ask for too big of a raise because we might bankrupt the airline.:rolleyes:

Duesenflieger
05-27-2017, 03:36 PM
At least the mechanics aren't sitting around saying we better not ask for too big of a raise because we might bankrupt the airline.:rolleyes:

Yeah, no kidding. The kool aid is strong with our pilot group.

trip
05-27-2017, 04:46 PM
Forget it, it's over, according to sapa we've lost the war on attrition because the pilot group has grown.:confused::confused:

RemoveB4Flight
05-27-2017, 06:56 PM
Forget it, it's over, according to sapa we've lost the war on attrition because the pilot group has grown.:confused::confused:

They are keeping up for now but that will change. +13 last month.
It will be interesting to see what happens when mandatory retirements really ramp up in the next year or two and new hires become more scarce simultaneously.
I think we are going to see the company sweat when this starts happening.
Unless this pay extension has significant improvements to existing pilots, my vote is to let the current pay package run its course. I believe we will be in a better position for negotiations with each passing day.

atpcliff
05-27-2017, 07:56 PM
FO I flew with was talking to AA HR.
In 2007 AA had 13,000 qualified resumes on file.
In 2017 they now have 3000.

The pilot shortage tsunami is just gathering​ steam.

tcco94
05-27-2017, 08:24 PM
FO I flew with was talking to AA HR.
In 2007 AA had 13,000 qualified resumes on file.
In 2017 they now have 3000.

The pilot shortage tsunami is just gathering​ steam.

Qualified as in meets all the minimum requirements?

WesternSkies
05-27-2017, 10:41 PM
FO I flew with was talking to AA HR.
In 2007 AA had 13,000 qualified resumes on file.
In 2017 they now have 3000.

The pilot shortage tsunami is just gathering​ steam.

Do they still want to know the number of night hours I have in specifically each of the 30 makes & models I've flown?

Apparently not few enough applications for them to get serious.

Is offline
05-28-2017, 05:24 AM
Forget it, it's over, according to sapa we've lost the war on attrition because the pilot group has grown.:confused::confused:

I think sapa has their head in the sand if they actually believe this. The company doesn't just offer up and come to the table to try and knock out negotiations a year early for no reason.

RemoveB4Flight
05-28-2017, 05:28 AM
I think sapa has their head in the sand if they actually believe this. The company doesn't just offer up and come to the table to try and knock out negotiations a year early for no reason.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, they are too interested in helping the company, thinking that they are helping the pilots at the same time. They seem to be falling for the company's "help us now and it will pay off later" scam.

DirkDiggler
05-28-2017, 09:25 AM
Isn't SAPA and the company the same thing at SkyWest? After all, how are they funded? Do you guys pay dues of some sort? If they are funded by management it would be hard to believe they put the pilots best interest first.

amcnd
05-28-2017, 10:24 AM
No we don't pay dues, yes the company pays salaries, but they are separate and most of them are pro alpa guys.. (or were). We have HIMS,Pro standards, and other programs just like a ALPA carrier... ive been at both and so far SAPA has been better.

Duesenflieger
05-28-2017, 11:47 AM
Isn't SAPA and the company the same thing at SkyWest? After all, how are they funded? Do you guys pay dues of some sort? If they are funded by management it would be hard to believe they put the pilots best interest first.

Pretty much. Not saying that it justifies introduction of ALPA at OO, but SAPA is definitely in bed with management. Just a charade to avert the attention of those who might care....

Is offline
05-28-2017, 06:56 PM
Exactly.

Unfortunately, they are too interested in helping the company, thinking that they are helping the pilots at the same time. They seem to be falling for the company's "help us now and it will pay off later" scam.

That's exactly what Chip said last time. So unless there is some money behind this pay package I don't think it will fly.

Nevjets
05-28-2017, 08:42 PM
No we don't pay dues, yes the company pays salaries, but they are separate and most of them are pro alpa guys.. (or were). We have HIMS,Pro standards, and other programs just like a ALPA carrier... ive been at both and so far SAPA has been better.


A pilot union is a lot more than a contract. If you are not part of a pilot union, you are not helping with issues that affect the entire industry. But whenever I've ever mentioned that to skywest pilots, they get annoyed for some strange reason. The ones who make it to another carrier, usually get it once they are there paying dues.

DirkDiggler
05-28-2017, 08:43 PM
No we don't pay dues, yes the company pays salaries, but they are separate and most of them are pro alpa guys.. (or were). We have HIMS,Pro standards, and other programs just like a ALPA carrier... ive been at both and so far SAPA has been better.

I guess my point was, if the stuff really hits the fan for an average line pilot for one reason or another and the company is looking to terminate you, would SAPA send a lawyer paid for on your behalf, or would they throw you under the bus and side with management? ALPA doesn't really do much for us except offer some comfort in knowing that they have and will send lawyers, have sued the company when necessary and got jobs back when people were wrongfully terminated. Pro stands and all that other stuff is nice, but the real power is the lawyers and the fight they will put up on your behalf. Is the SAPA 'contract' or 'handbook' enforceable through court proceedings or can they change it at will? I really can't compare ALPA and SAPA because I was never a member of SAPA, but I know there is some benefit to collective bargaining.

WesternSkies
05-28-2017, 10:27 PM
, have sued the company when necessary and got jobs back when people were wrongfully terminated.

I think that is tricky phraseology. SkyW is far from perfect and I'm sure good guys have been rolled, but part of the reason why the kool-aid is so strong is because this company seriously does treat us pretty fairly.

RemoveB4Flight
05-28-2017, 10:33 PM
A pilot union is a lot more than a contract. If you are not part of a pilot union, you are not helping with issues that affect the entire industry. But whenever I've ever mentioned that to skywest pilots, they get annoyed for some strange reason. The ones who make it to another carrier, usually get it once they are there paying dues.

Unions don't produce for regional airlines. Please tell me what ALPA has gotten you that we don't have.

I'm not defending them in any way. I just don't think either one really has any interest in regional pilots.
In my opinion it's just swapping garbage.

Squallrider
05-29-2017, 02:32 AM
And here's nevjets with union talk and the threads purpose dies.

amcnd
05-29-2017, 05:02 AM
And here's nevjets with union talk and the threads purpose dies.

Exactly. We've beat the horse dead about this. If you so have to have alpa then don't come to SkyWest. But please no more alpa talk. Its been hashed out for over 2 decades here and Flight info... and it will never change...

rickair7777
05-29-2017, 07:25 AM
Unions don't produce for regional airlines.

This. BTDT. I even voted yes at SKW, but unions, while clearly necessary industry wide and vital at the majors, are somewhere between weak and useless at the regional level.

1. The company cannot pass cost increases on to the customer. Only way that would ever happen is if a national union consolidated ALL regional negotiations under one roof. ALPA has had decades to work on that, but not even a hint of effort. Why you may ask? Keep reading...


2. Conflict of interest. Since ALPA represents majors, particularly UA & DL, they have a vested interested in keeping feed costs low because that frees up more money for mainline pilots.

3. Dysfunction. Regional union leadership tends to be dysfunctional. It also tends to be run by very senior lifers who cheerfully throw the junior pilots to the wolves at every opportunity. This is less of an issue at the majors because even their new hires have been around the block, and care about the long-term. ADD millenial CFI's who plan on being at a major in three years are not good union participants...too busy playing candy crush and hitting on FA's.

If somebody got a serious national-level effort together to focus on REGIONALS, I bet the SKW group would get on board. When I voted yes I was willing to give up 2% in the hopes that something like this might come about.

sailingfun
05-29-2017, 08:01 AM
This. BTDT. I even voted yes at SKW, but unions, while clearly necessary industry wide and vital at the majors, are somewhere between weak and useless at the regional level.

1. The company cannot pass cost increases on to the customer. Only way that would ever happen is if a national union consolidated ALL regional negotiations under one roof. ALPA has had decades to work on that, but not even a hint of effort. Why you may ask? Keep reading...


2. Conflict of interest. Since ALPA represents majors, particularly UA & DL, they have a vested interested in keeping feed costs low because that frees up more money for mainline pilots.

3. Dysfunction. Regional union leadership tends to be dysfunctional. It also tends to be run by very senior lifers who cheerfully throw the junior pilots to the wolves at every opportunity. This is less of an issue at the majors because even their new hires have been around the block, and care about the long-term. ADD millenial CFI's who plan on being at a major in three years are not good union participants...too busy playing candy crush and hitting on FA's.

If somebody got a serious national-level effort together to focus on REGIONALS, I bet the SKW group would get on board. When I voted yes I was willing to give up 2% in the hopes that something like this might come about.

The RLA prevents collusion to fix pay or work rules amongst entities covered under its mandate. You can't even have a national union. That is why ALPA is a association and each airline is a individual union. In fact this is pretty much the whole point of the RLA. It was designed to prevent national railroad strikes.

HermannGraf
05-29-2017, 04:53 PM
I think that is tricky phraseology. SkyW is far from perfect and I'm sure good guys have been rolled, but part of the reason why the kool-aid is so strong is because this company seriously does treat us pretty fairly.

You have not been there long have you?
They are brilliant in making you believe they are fair. That is what they are good at. It is an extremely well managed company and a solid company but like any other place it has it share of problems. Always watch your back.

Note aside. Skywest claims to be the employer of choice and the best regional and as such should compensate their pilot group better than any other Regional. When places like Mesa, Great Lakes, GoJet, etc keeps operating year after year no matter what mistakes they make it show the real margins the Regionals work with. The gross margin is great the net margin and net result depends on operating cost and accounting tricks. Skywest is very well able to pay way more than they like people to believe. That is their business core and that is what they are good at, that is how they can expand, do bad, horrible deals like buying ExpressJet and keep operating and being solid. It is actually not a bad thing but keep that skills to the deals, like when buying airplanes or building hangars or negotiating with Delta. Don't use that skill with your pilots, pay them fair and fair when claiming to be the best is the highest, nothing else. An argument say, "we have to stay competetive". Well, I do not see any other among the competition that has grown more, made more money, bought more airplanes than Skywest. So I guess it means being able to grow and expand like nobody else.....well in that case yes, somebody has to pay and among them....the pilots.

amcnd
05-29-2017, 05:15 PM
I would say SkyWest compisation is close to the top.. compairing a pure hourly rate doesn't prove anything... 2/3 the pilot group is not working today. Yet they are receiving holiday pay. You get that at your airline?? comparing W2, days off, benefits, company stability, bases, QOL, ect will show a lot more then complaining "That guy over there makes $2 more a hour them me... "....

RemoveB4Flight
05-29-2017, 05:54 PM
I would say SkyWest compisation is close to the top.. compairing a pure hourly rate doesn't prove anything... 2/3 the pilot group is not working today. Yet they are receiving holiday pay. You get that at your airline?? comparing W2, days off, benefits, company stability, bases, QOL, ect will show a lot more then complaining "That guy over there makes $2 more a hour them me... "....

I don't think you want to compare your W2 to someone at another regional with your similar date of hire and position. I'm going to guess Envoy, Endeavor, and now especially Air Wisconsin and possibly others would make you cringe when you see the difference.
Days off are all about the same regardless of where you go.
Benefits I would say we are somewhere in the middle. Air Wisconsins insurance beats the heck out of everyone else's. Any WO has better flight benefits than we do.
Stability- we are stable as of now, but as everyone is aware, in the regional world that can change in a heartbeat and in today's industry,there's no better way to lose that than fall behind on pilot compensation. Which is what is seems like might be happening. If we fall behind on compensation, we WILL have difficulty getting pilots in the door.
Company bases would be the thing Skywest can boast. We certainly have a lot of bases. However, once again, we all know how quickly that can change.

Duesenflieger
05-29-2017, 06:00 PM
I would say SkyWest compisation is close to the top.. compairing a pure hourly rate doesn't prove anything... 2/3 the pilot group is not working today. Yet they are receiving holiday pay. You get that at your airline?? comparing W2, days off, benefits, company stability, bases, QOL, ect will show a lot more then complaining "That guy over there makes $2 more a hour them me... "....

I would rather have a $20k yearly retention bonus than 4.12 hrs of holiday pay.... Right? We aren't as highly paid as you would like to believe.

SMACFUM
05-29-2017, 06:02 PM
Isn't SAPA and the company the same thing at SkyWest? After all, how are they funded? Do you guys pay dues of some sort? If they are funded by management it would be hard to believe they put the pilots best interest first.

Ding! Ding! Ding! This guy gets it.

It's a blatant conflict of interest. But "shhhhhh" don't let the company kool-aid drinkers hear you. Unions are BAD!!!! rabble, rabble.

Mercyful Fate
05-29-2017, 06:15 PM
A pilot union is a lot more than a contract. If you are not part of a pilot union, you are not helping with issues that affect the entire industry. But whenever I've ever mentioned that to skywest pilots, they get annoyed for some strange reason. The ones who make it to another carrier, usually get it once they are there paying dues.

People get annoyed at your union jibber jabber?

odd.

Groundpointfife
05-29-2017, 06:49 PM
FO I flew with was talking to AA HR.
In 2007 AA had 13,000 qualified resumes on file.
In 2017 they now have 3000.

The pilot shortage tsunami is just gathering​ steam.

I think there is a disconnect in the information. What I have read is, there are 19,000 applications on file in 2017, 3000 of them are updated regularly.

tcco94
05-29-2017, 07:32 PM
I would say SkyWest compisation is close to the top.. compairing a pure hourly rate doesn't prove anything... 2/3 the pilot group is not working today. Yet they are receiving holiday pay. You get that at your airline?? comparing W2, days off, benefits, company stability, bases, QOL, ect will show a lot more then complaining "That guy over there makes $2 more a hour them me... "....

No. We are pretty near the bottom and our QOL might be better but it's not dramatically better than some of the decent regionals out there and FO's making $20k+ more a year. I mean just in another thread a year 1 Air Wisconsin FO making close to $90k??

Sure he probably works his a** off but even doing that here won't get you anywhere close to that.

Don't get me wrong we have a livable wage but we are not competitive at all on the pay scale. Even work rules with pay we really beat out only a couple airlines. Recruitment even telling new hires you can get your west coast base in under 6 months on any equipment? Good luck with that to those going to class. All these new hires going to be in for a rude awakening. Just like the 175 pilot in the other thread threatening to quit because he's off IOE and he's not in SEA or a line holder. Lol.

tcco94
05-29-2017, 07:37 PM
I think there is a disconnect in the information. What I have read is, there are 19,000 applications on file in 2017, 3000 of them are updated regularly.

Yeah and what's the minimum flight time requirement? If you look at the pilot credentials website to apply the "minimum qualifications" have no mention at all of flight time. Unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

TransWorld
05-29-2017, 08:56 PM
I think there is a disconnect in the information. What I have read is, there are 19,000 applications on file in 2017, 3000 of them are updated regularly.

Here is a compilation of what I have read on various forums:

1. A few years ago there were 10,000 - 13,000 (depending on who you believe) valid unique applications between all the majors. Obviously a lot of pilots had applications in at multiple majors.

2. Today American has 3,000 - 7,000 (depending on who you believe has current info) valid applications on file.

3. Today Southwest has 3,000 valid applications on file.

4. One person reported today Delta and United have MORE valid applications each than a few years ago (the often quoted 10,000 - 13,000 valid unique applications).

I have to suspect the data for Delta and United are old reports. Have to believe they would be more in line with American and Southwest. As much as we like to believe differently, there is not that much difference in the average set of RJ eyes wanting to grab the golden ring. Not enough difference to justify three or four times the number of valid applications at one major vs. another.

Of course, there are a total of about 18,000 non-lifer RJ pilots. I bet a lot of the FO don't have applications in yet. They will in a few years, but we no longer have a huge 'plugged up pipeline' with lots of 25 year experienced CA and 15 year experienced FO. There is movement, and it is going to pick up speed.

You can conclude what you want, but my bet is applications have dropped and will continue to drop over the next few years. Within 5 - 10 years the regionals will have shrunk and will look completely different from today. My guess is fewer 50 seaters. Fewer flights a day served by 70 seaters or larger. More of the 70 seater flying will be done by 100 seaters.

My crystal ball is more foggy on this last point. Some or a lot of the 100 seaters (and possibly some of the 70 seaters), will be flown directly by the majors.

WesternSkies
05-29-2017, 09:30 PM
No. We are pretty near the bottom

We could offer 30K to new hires too, but I don't care to do that.
The rest of our pay package is still near the top, where it always has been.

Nevjets
05-29-2017, 09:41 PM
Exactly. We've beat the horse dead about this. If you so have to have alpa then don't come to SkyWest. But please no more alpa talk. Its been hashed out for over 2 decades here and Flight info... and it will never change...


I'm just saying that Skywest pilots don't understand that pilot unions are a lot more than about contracts. Yeah, dead horse in that skywest pilots continually refuse to join, literally, the whole rest of the airline piloting profession.

I would say SkyWest compisation is close to the top.. compairing a pure hourly rate doesn't prove anything... 2/3 the pilot group is not working today. Yet they are receiving holiday pay. You get that at your airline?? comparing W2, days off, benefits, company stability, bases, QOL, ect will show a lot more then complaining "That guy over there makes $2 more a hour them me... "....


I not really sure. There are things like vacation and sick accrual and pay, sick call policy, fatigue call policy, commuter policy, on the job injury pay bank, 401k matching, company retirement contribution, insurance premium cost sharing, reserve rules, line building rules, trip building rules, etc. Things that are not captured by a W2. Many of these are superior at places like air Wisconsin, expressjet, asa, piedmont, and endeavor. By the way, if you want to use W2 as a comparison, you need to divide TOTAL compensation by the actual block hours flown, not just the W2 number.

This. BTDT. I even voted yes at SKW, but unions, while clearly necessary industry wide and vital at the majors, are somewhere between weak and useless at the regional level.

1. The company cannot pass cost increases on to the customer. Only way that would ever happen is if a national union consolidated ALL regional negotiations under one roof. ALPA has had decades to work on that, but not even a hint of effort. Why you may ask? Keep reading...


2. Conflict of interest. Since ALPA represents majors, particularly UA & DL, they have a vested interested in keeping feed costs low because that frees up more money for mainline pilots.

3. Dysfunction. Regional union leadership tends to be dysfunctional. It also tends to be run by very senior lifers who cheerfully throw the junior pilots to the wolves at every opportunity. This is less of an issue at the majors because even their new hires have been around the block, and care about the long-term. ADD millenial CFI's who plan on being at a major in three years are not good union participants...too busy playing candy crush and hitting on FA's.

If somebody got a serious national-level effort together to focus on REGIONALS, I bet the SKW group would get on board. When I voted yes I was willing to give up 2% in the hopes that something like this might come about.

Pilot unions are just as vital at majors as they are at ACMI, cargo, LCC, ULCC, and regionals. Particularly at regionals, they have prevented deep concessions at many places. In that regard, they have been most important at regionals. Unless you believe that places like mesa, RAH, endeavor, AA whole owned regionals, and the TSH own regionals would be better of as non-union.

The conflict of interest you refer to doesn't exist. No mainline MEC can tell ANY any regional MEC what to do and no regional MEC can tell any MEC what to negotiate for or not negotiate for. In reality, each MEC is its one independent union that decides what they will negotiate for. If you believe there is a conflict of interest is to say you don't understand unions and ALPA. If there is a conflict of interest, it's management paying for the operation of a pseudo union and making it seem as that is normal or not disclosing that fact, openly and frequently. As for dysfunction, there is some of that in almost every organization because they are made up of humans. But if your organization has been fortunate to not suffer from dysfunction, they would do just as good within a union. Because, after all, unions are made up of the people within the union. If you have good competent people, they will be that in a union.

By the way, dues are at 1.9%. And they are tax deductible. So your effective dues will be lower if you itemize.

And here's nevjets with union talk and the threads purpose dies.

I didn't bring it up. But I see nothing wrong with having discussions again over the subject of unions.

People get annoyed at your union jibber jabber?

odd.

Like I said, for some reason, there are some Skywest people seem to be bothered with a simple discussion of unions.

Unions don't produce for regional airlines. Please tell me what ALPA has gotten you that we don't have.



I'm not defending them in any way. I just don't think either one really has any interest in regional pilots.

In my opinion it's just swapping garbage.

Unions have protected many regional pilots from hostile managements. They have also negotiate good contracts. They have also helped many people with their medical conditions. They have also represented many pilots before management, the FAA, ntsb, federal courts, etc. They have also pushed many safety initiatives in congress. They have also been involved in many ARCs, advisory committees, industry groups, etc.

Most pilots are ignorant of the things pilot unions have done for the profession throughout the decades.

I think that is tricky phraseology. SkyW is far from perfect and I'm sure good guys have been rolled, but part of the reason why the kool-aid is so strong is because this company seriously does treat us pretty fairly.

Just like Donald Douglas was treated fairly? How many DDs have there been that you haven't even heard about? At my union carrier, I can call the union and find out exactly how many outstanding grievances there are, how many have been settled, how many are awaiting arbitration, what are all the things being grieved, how many people have been fired in the last year, how many were asked to resign, how many were wrongfully terminated and got their job back. I don't have to wait and see if someone has the financial means to defend themselves in a company proceeding and subsequent government appeal and hope someone else knew about it to file a FOIA request to get that information. The union also puts out emails advising pilots on how certain parts of the contract should be administered by management. Usually this is because the union has seen these issue come up and they are trying to keep management honest before a practice that goes against the contract becomes precedent.

walleye
05-30-2017, 03:41 AM
I'm buying a new luggage works carry-on bag. What do you guys recommend?

A) Luggage Works-Stealth Aviator
B) Luggage Works-Computer Front Stealth 22
C) Luggage Works-Stealth Suiter 22
D) Something else

Is the 22 big enough or should I go for the 26 inch?

Thanks.

RemoveB4Flight
05-30-2017, 03:52 AM
I'm buying a new luggage works carry-on bag. What do you guys recommend?

A) Luggage Works-Stealth Aviator
B) Luggage Works-Computer Front Stealth 22
C) Luggage Works-Stealth Suiter 22
D) Something else

Is the 22 big enough or should I go for the 26 inch?

Thanks.

Any of those three are fine. There are a lot of other options out there but I recommend exactly what you are doing..Luggage Works Stealth bags will last you forever and will fit in the RJ overheads. In my observation, they are probably the most popular bags among pilots.
Stick with the 22". It is plenty big enough for you to fit everything for a 4+ day trip.

RemoveB4Flight
05-30-2017, 04:14 AM
Unions have protected many regional pilots from hostile managements. They have also negotiate good contracts. They have also helped many people with their medical conditions. They have also represented many pilots before management, the FAA, ntsb, federal courts, etc. They have also pushed many safety initiatives in congress. They have also been involved in many ARCs, advisory committees, industry groups, etc.

Most pilots are ignorant of the things pilot unions have done for the profession throughout the decades.


We have many of those same protections at Skywest.
I'm not saying ALPA hasn't done anything useful in the airline industry, but as I'm sure you are aware, this thread is about "Skywests new contract" so my comment was relating to ALPAs effectiveness in that area.
What it boils down to is ALPA is no better able to demand more when negotiating pay packages. The supply and demand of pilots is what enables better pay for pilots, not the association representing them.
There is no denying that ALPA has historically been unable to negotiate meaningful improvements to compensation for regional pilots. Regionals don't see the same pay negotiation results from ALPA as the majors do.

To be fair, the existence of ALPA is what allows SAPA to exist. The fear of possibility that the pilot group will vote in ALPA is what forces the company to play nice.

The details coming this week will be very interesting. If there are little to no increases in compensation for existing pilots, I wouldn't be surprised if we see another push for ALPA just out of frustration (not necessarily that we will see any improvements).

amcnd
05-30-2017, 05:44 AM
I have no doubt that if alpa got voted in, it would be like 10 years in a sand trap. Company dragging out a contract.. in those 10 years we would fall super behind... how long have some airlines been in Contract negotiations....??.. long time.. so that being said most guys/gals dont want alpa voted in...

RemoveB4Flight
05-30-2017, 05:56 AM
I have no doubt that if alpa got voted in, it would be like 10 years in a sand trap. Company dragging out a contract.. in those 10 years we would fall super behind... how long have some airlines been in Contract negotiations....??.. long time.. so that being said most guys/gals dont want alpa voted in...

Most guys who have been here for a while don't want ALPA voted in. There's a lot of guys hired in the last few years that might feel differently.
Also, there are probably a lot of "middle ground" guys that could be swayed if the company offers an insulting contract that SAPA tries to push through.
It won't do the company any favors for themselves to fall way behind in pay (further behind than we already are). It will start to show in the new hire classes

Squallrider
05-30-2017, 07:43 AM
Can we get on topic, alpa or anyone for that matter won't be voted in especially now, reason being junior people don't care because they will be leaving soon and generally have gotten bumps in pay with each package and the lifers haven't ever voted it in before so that's not going to change, the people that care turn over too fast to mainline.

So about the pay package......any rumors?

Mercyful Fate
05-30-2017, 07:47 AM
I have no doubt that if alpa got voted in, it would be like 10 years in a sand trap. Company dragging out a contract.. in those 10 years we would fall super behind... how long have some airlines been in Contract negotiations....??.. long time.. so that being said most guys/gals dont want alpa voted in...

This is the simple reality of it. Thus the reason a union has yet to be voted in for any work group within the airline. Game over if it ever happens.

450knotOffice
05-30-2017, 03:24 PM
This is the simple reality of it. Thus the reason a union has yet to be voted in for any work group within the airline. Game over if it ever happens.

Just curious, because I have no dog in this fight, but why do you think your management team - a team that many Skywest pilots says treats them fairly - would drag out a contract negotiation over a long period?

amcnd
05-30-2017, 04:52 PM
Just curious, because I have no dog in this fight, but why do you think your management team - a team that many Skywest pilots says treats them fairly - would drag out a contract negotiation over a long period?

Why wouldn't they.. take advantage of no pilot cost increases for years and years....as they drag out negotiations..

450knotOffice
05-30-2017, 04:57 PM
Why wouldn't they.. take advantage of no pilot cost increases for years and years....as they drag out negotiations..

If they want to create bad blood that lasts for years and years afterward, sure. However, your management team doesn't have a history of unfettered ruthlessness in that regard, unlike some other airlines' management teams.

Mercyful Fate
05-30-2017, 05:29 PM
Just curious, because I have no dog in this fight, but why do you think your management team - a team that many Skywest pilots says treats them fairly - would drag out a contract negotiation over a long period?

SkyWest is not my management team...

450knotOffice
05-30-2017, 06:17 PM
SkyWest is not my management team...

My mistake. I actually meant to address amcnd.

N1234
05-30-2017, 06:28 PM
Why wouldn't they.. take advantage of no pilot cost increases for years and years....as they drag out negotiations..

What stops them from doing that today?

amcnd
05-30-2017, 07:13 PM
What stops them from doing that today?

They actually value employees... untill they turn on them... Im Done talking alpa/SkyWest.. I have my 5 year alpa pin. Somewhere in my junk drawer... back on topic.. maybe news later this week??

Is offline
05-30-2017, 07:44 PM
They actually value employees... untill they turn on them... Im Done talking alpa/SkyWest.. I have my 5 year alpa pin. Somewhere in my junk drawer... back on topic.. maybe news later this week??

They could care less about any employee. They are here to make money and payroll is a liability. The cheaper they can get it the more they pay themselves. Chip and the other execs have seen their compensation increase by 60% and he is asking for a pay freeze again. He is selling the same line as last time. I just hope we aren't stupid enough to vote it in.

Mercyful Fate
05-30-2017, 08:21 PM
My mistake. I actually meant to address amcnd.

No worries!!

atpcliff
05-30-2017, 08:29 PM
Xxxxxxxxxx

SMACFUM
05-30-2017, 10:10 PM
I have no doubt that if alpa got voted in, it would be like 10 years in a sand trap. Company dragging out a contract.. in those 10 years we would fall super behind... how long have some airlines been in Contract negotiations....??.. long time.. so that being said most guys/gals dont want alpa voted in...

That makes absolutely zero sense. So because the pilot's vote in a union, the company stalls negotiations for 10 years? To what end? For what purpose? Just be be vindictive? Revenge? That's just dumb. It's business, not personal. Chip and the higher ups aren't that dumb. It's not in their best interest to completely stall Pay negotiations, union or not.

They have a business to run. And part of running that business is hiring pilots to fly their airplanes. They need to stay competitive in the hiring of pilots. Stalling pay negotiations does the opposite of that. Period. Union or not.

You think they're coming to us one year early to get an extension on our page agreement just because they like us? Because they want to do something good for us? Come on......... no, because they need to, in order to execute their long-term business plans.

SMACFUM
05-30-2017, 10:33 PM
A pilot union is a lot more than a contract. If you are not part of a pilot union, you are not helping with issues that affect the entire industry. But whenever I've ever mentioned that to skywest pilots, they get annoyed for some strange reason. The ones who make it to another carrier, usually get it once they are there paying dues.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y392/DoctorLime/Gifs/Sarcastic%20Mean%20and%20Comebacks/KmwYpbo_zps27599e63.gif

Typical reaction from SkyWest pilots when taking about the legal protections and organizational benefits from unions that are not pay related. "But, 2% of my pay......La La La La La"

Strange. Don't hear them complaining at all about their unions when they leave SkyWest for a mainline carrier. Funny how their opinion changes so quickly.

I guess my point was, if the stuff really hits the fan for an average line pilot for one reason or another and the company is looking to terminate you, would SAPA send a lawyer paid for on your behalf, or would they throw you under the bus and side with management? ALPA doesn't really do much for us except offer some comfort in knowing that they have and will send lawyers, have sued the company when necessary and got jobs back when people were wrongfully terminated. Pro stands and all that other stuff is nice, but the real power is the lawyers and the fight they will put up on your behalf. Is the SAPA 'contract' or 'handbook' enforceable through court proceedings or can they change it at will? I really can't compare ALPA and SAPA because I was never a member of SAPA, but I know there is some benefit to collective bargaining.

^ This needs to be quoted again for emphasis. Unions at the regional level don't exist for securing pay raises. They exist for legal backing and protection. But again......"La La La La La"

Groundpointfife
05-30-2017, 10:57 PM
Did you not read that Amcnd had an ALPA pin? I think you underestimate the number of SkyWest pilots that came from an ALPA carrier. Or have worked at a union airline.

Most of the guys you interpret as going la la la have lived through an ALPA regional. So they're not just ignoring an opinion, they have seen what a union offers at the regional level and have decided that it's not beneficial.

The guys that are ok with unions at the majors are living a different reality. The biggest argument against ALPA at the regionals​ is Mesa. What has ALPA done for Mesa pilots? Has their legal protection done much for them?

At the legacies there's more money even at 2%. Larger compensation means 2% is a bigger total dollar amount, especially on the scale of the legacy airlines.

Blackwing
05-31-2017, 01:38 AM
The biggest argument against ALPA at the regionals​ is Mesa. What has ALPA done for Mesa pilots? Has their legal protection done much for them?



Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.

SMACFUM
05-31-2017, 06:13 AM
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.

Well, if you hate SkyWest so much, why don't you leave and go back to Mesa if you love it so much? (sarcasm)

SMACFUM
05-31-2017, 06:21 AM
Did you not read that Amcnd had an ALPA pin? I think you underestimate the number of SkyWest pilots that came from an ALPA carrier. Or have worked at a union airline.

Most of the guys you interpret as going la la la have lived through an ALPA regional. So they're not just ignoring an opinion, they have seen what a union offers at the regional level and have decided that it's not beneficial.

The guys that are ok with unions at the majors are living a different reality. The biggest argument against ALPA at the regionals​ is Mesa. What has ALPA done for Mesa pilots? Has their legal protection done much for them?

At the legacies there's more money even at 2%. Larger compensation means 2% is a bigger total dollar amount, especially on the scale of the legacy airlines.

I'm willing to bet amend came from a regional with a pretty bad management group, and during a time when the airlines in general were in pretty rough shape economically.

My main point was that you can actually have it both ways. Credit where credit is due, SKW has a pretty darn good management group with a semi decent relationship with its pilots. I think it's faulty logic to think that our management will all of a sudden turn on us just because we vote in a union, it just doesn't make sense. It's a false dichotomy. SkyWest is not Mesa, or Pinnacle, or GoJet.

All you have to do is look at Southwest to see that having a good strong union, AND and a good relationship with management are not mutually exclusive.

Utah
05-31-2017, 06:47 AM
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.

WTF are you doing here then?


I'll give you one thing though. This historical credit thing is utter crap. It's an easy 2-3% pay cut, yet we have pilots here that argue for it. I've got 30+ hours of block on my schedule over the next week and 28 hours of credit.

Mercyful Fate
05-31-2017, 07:26 AM
That makes absolutely zero sense. So because the pilot's vote in a union, the company stalls negotiations for 10 years? To what end? For what purpose? Just be be vindictive? Revenge? That's just dumb. It's business, not personal. Chip and the higher ups aren't that dumb. It's not in their best interest to completely stall Pay negotiations, union or not.

They have a business to run. And part of running that business is hiring pilots to fly their airplanes. They need to stay competitive in the hiring of pilots. Stalling pay negotiations does the opposite of that. Period. Union or not.

You think they're coming to us one year early to get an extension on our page agreement just because they like us? Because they want to do something good for us? Come on......... no, because they need to, in order to execute their long-term business plans.

Let me ask you a honest question. Do you believe for one second if a union were to happen, that business would just continue as normal? You believe the dynamic of the current business model would remain intact if a union was on property?

Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.

rickair7777
05-31-2017, 07:32 AM
I'll give you one thing though. This historical credit thing is utter crap. It's an easy 2-3% pay cut, yet we have pilots here that argue for it. I've got 30+ hours of block on my schedule over the next week and 28 hours of credit.

I usually end flying the block anyway, without trying hard to do that. The credit usually only kicks in if you cancel. I personally would prefer to fry other fish.

CBreezy
05-31-2017, 07:40 AM
Let me ask you a honest question. Do you believe for one second if a union were to happen, that business would just continue as normal? You believe the dynamic of the current business model would remain intact if a union was on property?

Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.

I have no doubt in my mind that the reason Skywest is one of the highest compensated as far as pay rates are concerned is because the management team NEEDS to be that way so that pilots don't vote in a union. I'm fine with them riding the coat tails of the hard work of unionized carriers. I'm all for pilots being compensated fairly, but let's not pretend that the whole reason they are treated the way they are isn't because they value them, it's because they know if they don't keep pace, they risk a union on property. I'm not saying this because I have experience, because it's the exact sentiment everyone on here is expressing. If they truly valued you, everyone on here would agree that they would respect your opinion to become unionized and work with you.

That being said, I don't think Skywest management would tank their relationship with the pilot group for becoming union. Would it be a less friendly negotiating environment? Sure. When your bargaining agent only has its pilots interests in mind and the company theirs, there is going to be some gamesmanship. It might longer than it currently does. But, in a union environment and a pro-negotiating environment like we have now, you'll be more likely to get things that directly improve pilot QOL even if it hurts the bottom line a little. Right now, the pilots are given only what the company is willing to give to keep a union off property. No more.

ACEssXfer
05-31-2017, 07:46 AM
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.

What is a "golden day"?

Mercyful Fate
05-31-2017, 07:47 AM
I have no doubt in my mind that the reason Skywest is one of the highest compensated as far as pay rates are concerned is because the management team NEEDS to be that way so that pilots don't vote in a union. I'm fine with them riding the coat tails of the hard work of unionized carriers. I'm all for pilots being compensated fairly, but let's not pretend that the whole reason they are treated the way they are isn't because they value them, it's because they know if they don't keep pace, they risk a union on property. I'm not saying this because I have experience, because it's the exact sentiment everyone on here is expressing. If they truly valued you, everyone on here would agree that they would respect your opinion to become unionized and work with you.

That being said, I don't think Skywest management would tank their relationship with the pilot group for becoming union. Would it be a less friendly negotiating environment? Sure. When your bargaining agent only has its pilots interests in mind and the company theirs, there is going to be some gamesmanship. It might longer than it currently does. But, in a union environment and a pro-negotiating environment like we have now, you'll be more likely to get things that directly improve pilot QOL even if it hurts the bottom line a little. Right now, the pilots are given only what the company is willing to give to keep a union off property. No more.

Yikes, that is some out in left field logic right there. You know of any corporation that feels that way? Unions hurt a companies bottom line, period.

rickair7777
05-31-2017, 07:58 AM
Actually, a very senior SKW manager once told me that SGU would be OK with a pilot union. That way they could compensate the pilots the way they need in the competitive market (including things like work rules, 401k, and other carve outs) without being obligated to give the same to all other work groups (in accordance with the one-big-happy-family philosophy). When the other employees complain, they can blame it on the union.

Since that conversation, the company has unilaterally carved out special treatment for pilots even without a union as an excuse (split PPM from FA's, PPS).

Actually my only real concern with alpa right now would be a common carrier petition from XJT.

Mercyful Fate
05-31-2017, 08:02 AM
Actually, a very senior SKW manager once told me that SGU would be OK with a pilot union. That way they could compensate the pilots the way they need in the competitive market (including things like work rules, 401k, and other carve outs) without being obligated to give the same to all other work groups (in accordance with the one-big-happy-family philosophy). When the other employees complain, they can blame it on the union.

Since that conversation, the company has unilaterally carved out special treatment for pilots even without a union as an excuse (split PPM from FA's, PPS).

Actually my only real concern with alpa right now would be a common carrier petition from XJT.

SGU would be ok with a pilot union, yet spends tons of money to keep it out? You understand if a union were to creep into any of the work groups of that airline, the domino's start to fall with the other groups. If indeed a senior manager did say that, I guarantee that is not the logic the collective upper management group has on the topic.

SMACFUM
05-31-2017, 08:17 AM
Let me ask you a honest question. Do you believe for one second if a union were to happen, that business would just continue as normal? You believe the dynamic of the current business model would remain intact if a union was on property?

Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.

Would business continue as normal?
No, that's the entire point. The power structure would shift towards the pilots. Isn't that a good thing? It's called leverage. It sure beats the company shills we call SAPA that wholesale to the pilots absolutely anything that the company gives them. SAPA is just one gigantic conflict of interest.

Would SkyWest's business model remain in tact?
Of course it would. Is that a serious question? Skywest is a publicly traded company. They're in the business of making money. Union or otherwise. It just doesn't make sense to think having a union would suddenly upend the company's business model. Would the relationship with the pilots change? Absolutely. Would the relationship completely tank? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because again, it's in Skywest best business interests to maintain a good as possible relationship with its labor groups. Union or not.

The only thing that would change with a union at Skywest, is a little stronger legal standing and protection for pilots, a negligible amount of negotiating leverage, and a level of independence of representation removed from company infulance.

I'll say it one last time, because it bears repeating. Skywest management is not going to shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the pilot group for voting in a union. Nothing will crash and burn. It's not in their best interests. It's business. Not personal.

Mercyful Fate
05-31-2017, 08:24 AM
Would business continue as normal?
No, that's the entire point. The power structure would shift towards the pilots. Isn't that a good thing? It's called leverage. It sure beats the company shills we call SAPA that wholesale to the pilots absolutely anything that the company gives them. SAPA is just one gigantic conflict of interest.

Would SkyWest's business model remain in tact?
Of course it would. Is that a serious question? Skywest is a publicly traded company. They're in the business of making money. Union or otherwise. It just doesn't make sense to think having a union would suddenly upend the company's business model. Would the relationship with the pilots change? Absolutely. Would the relationship completely tank? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because again, it's in Skywest best business interests to maintain a good as possible relationship with its labor groups. Union or not.

The only thing that would change with a union at Skywest, is a little stronger legal standing and protection for pilots, a negligible amount of negotiating leverage, and a level of independence of representation removed from company infulance.

I'll say it one last time, because it bears repeating. Skywest management is not going to shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the pilot group for voting in a union. Nothing will crash and burn. It's not in their best interests. It's business. Not personal.

Why does either side have to have control of the "power structure" as you call it? By saying that however, you somewhat show how a struggle for power becomes into play with a union. You think the airlines management is going to roll over, and play the submissive role? In all due respect, I think you are living in a fantasy world with your frame of thinking.

SMACFUM
05-31-2017, 08:51 AM
Why does either side have to have control of the "power structure" as you call it? By saying that however, you somewhat show how a struggle for power becomes into play with a union. You think the airlines management is going to roll over, and play the submissive role? In all due respect, I think you are living in a fantasy world with your frame of thinking.

No, you're projecting. I never said either side would have control over the power structure. Simply, that it wkould shift slightly. Again, a hallmark of a good company, is the ability of both management, and labor to work together, to a mutually beneficial him arrangement.

I've never once said management will roll over and take a submissive role. That's you putting words into my mouth. You call it a struggle, I call it A business relationship. That's how business works. A healthy relationship, with a rational parties, will yield a mutually beneficial result. That's business 101. That's how it works. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved. I personally think we have a pretty keen management group and I give them a lot of respect. SAPA on the other hand is a complete joke. They don't work for the pilots, they work for the company. Period. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved.

Case in point. Everybody likes to bash ALPA at the regional level. Fine. But, take a look at endeavor. Not pinnacle, but endeavor. Ask any of their pilots how happy they are and how they're doing. I think you will find that they are pretty happy right now, their ALPA representation included. Why is that? What changed? I'll tell you what changed. It was their entire upper management and their way of running that business. It takes two to tango.

The relationship at endeavor pretty much changed overnight, not because of the union, but because Delta finally wised up, change their thinking and replace the entire upper management team. Interesting how that works. They're doing pretty well over there

Mercyful Fate
05-31-2017, 08:58 AM
No, you're projecting. I never said either side would have control over the power structure. Simply, that it wkould shift slightly. Again, a hallmark of a good company, is the ability of both management, and labor to work together, to a mutually beneficial him arrangement.

I've never once said management will roll over and take a submissive role. That's you putting words into my mouth. You call it a struggle, I call it A business relationship. That's how business works. A healthy relationship, with a rational parties, will yield a mutually beneficial result. That's business 101. That's how it works. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved. I personally think we have a pretty keen management group and I give them a lot of respect. SAPA on the other hand is a complete joke. They don't work for the pilots, they work for the company. Period. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved.

Case in point. Everybody likes to bash ALPA at the regional level. Fine. But, take a look at endeavor. Not pinnacle, but endeavor. Ask any of their pilots how happy they are and how they're doing. I think pretty dang wel at the regional level. Fine. But, take a look at endeavor. Not pinnacle, but endeavor. Ask any of their pilots how happy they are and how they're doing. I think you will find that they are pretty happy right now, their ALPA representation included. Why is that? What changed? I'll tell you what changed. It was their entire upper management and their way of running that business. It takes two to tango.

Simply used the words that you said, so there was zero projection at all.

You are going to use Endeavor as an example? A regional airline that is owned by its parent company, Delta? A airline with a simple business model in comparison to some of the other regional carriers? Take Delta out of that mix and turn them loose on their own, completely different ball game. Come on man, you know better than to use them to make a point in this.

hawk21
05-31-2017, 08:59 AM
Curious if we hear anything good tomorrow considering it's SAPA conference call day and "early June".

RemoveB4Flight
05-31-2017, 09:27 AM
Probably going to be a late Friday afternoon announcement if the pay package is as disappointing as expected.

chitolin
05-31-2017, 09:45 AM
Curious if we hear anything good tomorrow considering it's SAPA conference call day and "early June".

Who knows. I feel kinda sad that May is pretty much gone and nothing about the highly advertised Student council Website. Don't wanna think RJ is dishonest, I trust him so much! Particularly bummed because since I live abroad I cannot participate in the enrichening experience of going through that vast source of timely (mis)information and advise.

WesternSkies
05-31-2017, 09:48 AM
A conference call for 4250 people.
Let that sink in.

If only there could be a modern forum where all voices could be heard....

amcnd
05-31-2017, 10:36 AM
A conference call for 4250 people.
Let that sink in.

If only there could be a modern forum where all voices could be heard....

The most they get is 90~ people.... bet the average is closer to 40... shows you why even local domicile sapa reps get 20% of the pilots vote.

P.S. were at 4300 pilots now....

Is offline
05-31-2017, 11:38 AM
The most they get is 90~ people.... bet the average is closer to 40... shows you why even local domicile sapa reps get 20% of the pilots vote.

P.S. were at 4300 pilots now....

Everyone has given up on sapa. They communicate nothing to the pilot group. They don't even let the pilots know that they are in negotiations. It's like a bad joke.

That 4300 pilots has people on it that won't start class for months. I think they need to take it back to the time when you had to start class to be on the list.

word302
05-31-2017, 11:47 AM
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.

If you're going to use that logic you could argue everything we have better at Skywest than Mesa is because we are non union. That would be a silly argument.

LAX2MSP
05-31-2017, 11:56 AM
Everyone has given up on sapa. They communicate nothing to the pilot group. They don't even let the pilots know that they are in negotiations. It's like a bad joke.

That 4300 pilots has people on it that won't start class for months. I think they need to take it back to the time when you had to start class to be on the list.

No the list is current with people in class. A friend of mine is on there and he started last week I think.

word302
05-31-2017, 12:15 PM
Everyone has given up on sapa. They communicate nothing to the pilot group. They don't even let the pilots know that they are in negotiations. It's like a bad joke.

That 4300 pilots has people on it that won't start class for months. I think they need to take it back to the time when you had to start class to be on the list.

Dude. This again? How many people are on there who haven't started class? Maybe 10? Less than 10? I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue. Who would benefit from inflating the number of pilots on the list?

amcnd
05-31-2017, 01:51 PM
Everyone on there is in class for at least a week. Takes a week to get them loaded on the list.. its when there "pilot badge" is generated I've been told..

word302
05-31-2017, 02:14 PM
Everyone on there is in class for at least a week. Takes a week to get them loaded on the list.. its when there "pilot badge" is generated I've been told..

There are like 4 or 5 guys that keep floating at the bottom of the list. My guess is deferral of some sort (possible military). Offline thinks there's some kind of conspiracy to show a larger pilot group/better hiring #'s than we actually have. I have tried several times to reason with him. Sigh.

Drums4life
05-31-2017, 02:27 PM
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:

A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.

This is just a short off-the-top-of-my-head list of tangibles that ALPA representation has won for Mesa pilots, it is by no means exhaustive.


The thing is, the list is a short one for things better at Mesa and quite a long one for things that are better at SkyWest.

rickair7777
05-31-2017, 02:32 PM
MOD INPUT: Ok we've done the obligatory union horse beating, but since we're not going to vote in ALPA in time for this pay deal, lets get back the original topic. No need for further discussion on how great the union has made life at mesa. Thanks.

word302
05-31-2017, 03:23 PM
MOD INPUT: Ok we've done the obligatory union horse beating, but since we're not going to vote in ALPA in time for this pay deal, lets get back the original topic. No need for further discussion on how great the union has made life at mesa. Thanks.

Haha. Rick for MEC chair...or president...or whatever the hell we call it.

tcco94
05-31-2017, 03:40 PM
Haha. Rick for MEC chair...or president...or whatever the hell we call it.

+1 for my vote

Squallrider
05-31-2017, 04:03 PM
Rumor at school house is initial 30 175s going to a 100, mostly Delta (I thought they were maxed on scope but I guess adding NBs increases about of 175s). SLC is floating around as a 175 base which means a lot of senior ppl will vote yes.

Supposedly with bonuses it's a 10% pay increase but we will see soon. Lots of rumors flying around that's when you know a pay package is imminent.

SMACFUM
05-31-2017, 04:38 PM
MOD INPUT: Ok we've done the obligatory union horse beating, but since we're not going to vote in ALPA in time for this pay deal, lets get back the original topic. No need for further discussion on how great the union has made life at mesa. Thanks.

Wait a minute. Last I checked discussing a union wasn't against the TOS or rules of this forum. So your exercising your MOD privladges to stop discussion of a topic just because your personally tired of talking about it? That seems a little heavy handed, no?

BrewCity
05-31-2017, 04:51 PM
Wait a minute. Last I checked discussing a union wasn't against the TOS or rules of this forum. So your exercising your MOD privladges to stop discussion of a topic just because your personally tired of talking about it? That seems a little heavy handed, no?

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and point out that there's an entire subform for union talk and that even starting a separate union debate thread in the Skywest subform would probably be fine.

NewGuy01
05-31-2017, 04:51 PM
Rumor at school house is initial 30 175s going to a 100, mostly Delta (I thought they were maxed on scope but I guess adding NBs increases about of 175s). SLC is floating around as a 175 base which means a lot of senior ppl will vote yes.

Supposedly with bonuses it's a 10% pay increase but we will see soon. Lots of rumors flying around that's when you know a pay package is imminent.

So it's my first post. I've been following this discussion for some time. I started at Skywest late last year. I'm just wondering what you mean here?

More new aircraft orders? I thought we were in the last of the deliveries of 175s? Are you saying there are more coming to Skywest?

RemoveB4Flight
05-31-2017, 04:52 PM
Wait a minute. Last I checked discussing a union wasn't against the TOS or rules of this forum. So your exercising your MOD privladges to stop discussion of a topic just because your personally tired of talking about it? That seems a little heavy handed, no?

I think he simply meant we are getting side tracked. I believe he's saying to start a new thread on the topic of a union if we want to keep discussing it.

Is offline
05-31-2017, 05:01 PM
Dude. This again? How many people are on there who haven't started class? Maybe 10? Less than 10? I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue. Who would benefit from inflating the number of pilots on the list?

There are guys that have hire dates from a year ago on the list that have still not started class. I know one that I referred that has been on the list for almost a month and still hasn't started class. You can think what you want but not all of those guys are here yet.

Blackwing
05-31-2017, 05:01 PM
Well, if you hate SkyWest so much, why don't you leave and go back to Mesa if you love it so much? (sarcasm)


Who says I hate SkyWest? If we're all that and a bag of chips, why don't we have everything Mesa does?

Squallrider
05-31-2017, 05:11 PM
So it's my first post. I've been following this discussion for some time. I started at Skywest late last year. I'm just wondering what you mean here?

More new aircraft orders? I thought we were in the last of the deliveries of 175s? Are you saying there are more coming to Skywest?

We have 100 firm and 100 optional On current generation 175, the options are contingent on Skywest getting work for them.

Blackwing
05-31-2017, 05:21 PM
WTF are you doing here then?



I'll give you one thing though. This historical credit thing is utter crap. It's an easy 2-3% pay cut, yet we have pilots here that argue for it. I've got 30+ hours of block on my schedule over the next week and 28 hours of credit.


What am I doing here? I'm a native Salt Laker and live in base. 'Nuff said. And as I mentioned, the pay and work rules there suck. No getting around that.

But I'm humored by the "love it or leave it" attitude. Why not work to bring the best of every other carrier here? I can't think of anything that would further the cause of making this place the "employer of choice" than that.

A month or two on Mesa's PBS platform and you'd be with me on that, too. I could do all kinds of wizardry with my bid that is unthinkable here--like forcing a priority among pairings-by-date within the same layer, shedding bid preferences one-by-one within the same layer with control loops (say, to bid Fri-Sun off, or, failing that, Sat-Mon off, without changing anything else in my bid). That system had so much flexibility that once I held a line, I didn't need more than one layer.

And somebody did the math in the Facebook group recently, the potential loss in the historical credit thing can be as high as 9%. In your example of 30 hrs scheduled block to 28 hrs historical credit, that's 6.7%.

Lastly, at a place where it's impossible to drop anything in most bases, just think what you could do with 3 golden days a month. Personally, I found them quite useful for forcing PBS into specific trip cadences.

Blackwing
05-31-2017, 05:34 PM
What is a "golden day"?

It's a guaranteed day off. Right-click on any day in Sked+ and you'll see the option to request that day as a golden day. You have to have this in place by the first of the month prior to the month you want the day off. They send an email out every month as a reminder.

NewGuy01
05-31-2017, 05:36 PM
We have 100 firm and 100 optional On current generation 175, the options are contingent on Skywest getting work for them.

Cool thanks for clearing that up for me.

word302
05-31-2017, 06:17 PM
There are guys that have hire dates from a year ago on the list that have still not started class. I know one that I referred that has been on the list for almost a month and still hasn't started class. You can think what you want but not all of those guys are here yet.

Like I said, there are 5 guys that keep sliding down the list. Have been for months. Not sure if they are deferring class or what is going on. Other than that, I believe everyone else is in class or some part of training. You keep trying to paint some strange conspiracy that the company is inflating the seniority list. Believe what you want, just quit trying to spread incorrect information.

Rocksteady
05-31-2017, 06:26 PM
It's a guaranteed day off. Right-click on any day in Sked+ and you'll see the option to request that day as a golden day. You have to have this in place by the first of the month prior to the month you want the day off. They send an email out every month as a reminder.

Do golden days rollover, as in can you stockpile them yr after yr?

tcco94
05-31-2017, 06:32 PM
We have 100 firm and 100 optional On current generation 175, the options are contingent on Skywest getting work for them.

And if I read correctly those won't start flying for us for years?

I could see 2020 new SLC terminal with more Delta 175's. Seems pretty unlikely right now though...I thought they were scoped out. Just another rumor for the pile.

WesternSkies
05-31-2017, 06:36 PM
And if I read correctly those won't start flying for us for years?

.

As of now the 96 options are not slated to ever fly here in any time frame.

Is offline
05-31-2017, 06:43 PM
Like I said, there are 5 guys that keep sliding down the list. Have been for months. Not sure if they are deferring class or what is going on. Other than that, I believe everyone else is in class or some part of training. You keep trying to paint some strange conspiracy that the company is inflating the seniority list. Believe what you want, just quit trying to spread incorrect information.

Are you the one pucnching keys in sgu? I stated that not all of those guys are on property in which you have proved my point. I said nothing about conspiracy theories that is all you.

tcco94
05-31-2017, 06:44 PM
As of now the 96 options are not slated to ever fly here in any time frame.

Let's say we did get a contract to fly them. How long would it take the factory to get us the jet on our property ready to fly?....if you know

word302
05-31-2017, 06:49 PM
Are you the one pucnching keys in sgu? I stated that not all of those guys are on property in which you have proved my point. I said nothing about conspiracy theories that is all you.

Lol. You have made a huge deal about this in the past. Is 5 extra guys on a 4300 pilot list really hurting your feelings?

amcnd
05-31-2017, 06:51 PM
Let's say we did get a contract to fly them. How long would it take the factory to get us the jet on our property ready to fly?....if you know

You need to remember. Things happen way before we find out... could be a few weeks!!! But most likely a few months.

WesternSkies
05-31-2017, 06:53 PM
I'd guess that would depend most on Embraer and their current production line customers so I have no clue.

rickair7777
05-31-2017, 07:09 PM
Wait a minute. Last I checked discussing a union wasn't against the TOS or rules of this forum. So your exercising your MOD privladges to stop discussion of a topic just because your personally tired of talking about it? That seems a little heavy handed, no?

Union talk usually goes off the rails. That's why we moved it to it's own forum years ago.

We can compare what others have in a discussion about contract negotiations but no more union talk in this thread.

tcco94
05-31-2017, 07:46 PM
You need to remember. Things happen way before we find out... could be a few weeks!!! But most likely a few months.

Yeah guess we do forget to add that to the equation. Just food for thought.

DirkDiggler
05-31-2017, 07:48 PM
Union talk usually goes off the rails. That's why we moved it to it's own forum years ago.

We can compare what others have in a discussion about contract negotiations but no more union talk in this thread.

Hey thanks for removing my post about caselaw from the previous Skywest ALPA organizing committee, which is public information filed in federal courts. Why don't you go into every other forum and censor all ALPA related posts as well. Not sure why you are only patrolling any talk of a union on the Skywest thread.

word302
05-31-2017, 08:10 PM
Hey thanks for removing my post about caselaw from the previous Skywest ALPA organizing committee, which is public information filed in federal courts. Why don't you go into every other forum and censor all ALPA related posts as well. Not sure why you are only patrolling any talk of a union on the Skywest thread.

Agreed. Seems a little overbearing.

word302
05-31-2017, 08:18 PM
Even the union thread states that for airline specific union conversations one should post in the proper thread. I fail to see how the deleted posts violated the TOS.

Blackwing
05-31-2017, 09:11 PM
Do golden days rollover, as in can you stockpile them yr after yr?
I don't believe so, but I'm not sure.

Bravix
05-31-2017, 10:59 PM
There are guys that have hire dates from a year ago on the list that have still not started class. I know one that I referred that has been on the list for almost a month and still hasn't started class. You can think what you want but not all of those guys are here yet.

Was just told that the wait list for the E175 training extends into next year for new guys.

Whether recruiting was telling this guy the truth or bluffing because they want more CRJ guys and just assumed he'd switch if they said that, I dunno.

RemoveB4Flight
06-01-2017, 01:42 AM
I think the right course of action would be to create a Union thread within the Skywest subforum if anyone would like to continue discussion about it. I think that's all he is trying to say.
Looking at other airline sub forums that's how they seem to do it.

By the way...it's early June. What's the hold up.

CBreezy
06-01-2017, 04:03 AM
This thread is about a new "contract" and negotiations. Talking about the similarities between non-union and union seems appropriate for a thread like this. Just because you don't like unions doesn't mean it isn't appropriate.

hawk21
06-01-2017, 04:24 AM
If the new flying is just for 175s how do they expect CRJ pilots to be excited about it...?

RemoveB4Flight
06-01-2017, 04:59 AM
This thread is about a new "contract" and negotiations. Talking about the similarities between non-union and union seems appropriate for a thread like this. Just because you don't like unions doesn't mean it isn't appropriate.

Absolutely agree. Anytime pay negotiations are being discussed it is inevitable for unions to be brought up. I think the point he was making was to not make this particular thread about a union drive or about mesas union. That would be a topic for a different thread.
I'm certain he didn't mean the word union couldn't appear if this thread, that would be ridiculous.

RemoveB4Flight
06-01-2017, 05:02 AM
If the new flying is just for 175s how do they expect CRJ pilots to be excited about it...?

That's the nature an evolving airline. Things change. Eventually, if we get enough 175s the CRJ pilots might not be CRJ pilots anymore.
Think about the bro to the CRJ.

Squallrider
06-01-2017, 05:33 AM
If the new flying is just for 175s how do they expect CRJ pilots to be excited about it...?

Any new flying will improve seniority regardless of fleet

word302
06-01-2017, 05:38 AM
Absolutely agree. Anytime pay negotiations are being discussed it is inevitable for unions to be brought up. I think the point he was making was to not make this particular thread about a union drive or about mesas union. That would be a topic for a different thread.
I'm certain he didn't mean the word union couldn't appear if this thread, that would be ridiculous.

I don't think the discussions we were having were anywhere near inappropriate for this thread. The fact that posts were deleted is pretty ridiculous.

RemoveB4Flight
06-01-2017, 05:44 AM
I don't think the discussions we were having were anywhere near inappropriate for this thread. The fact that posts were deleted is pretty ridiculous.

You could be right. I have no way of knowing the contents of the deleted posts to weigh in on it.

amcnd
06-01-2017, 05:52 AM
If the new flying is just for 175s how do they expect CRJ pilots to be excited about it...?

I heard the opposite. That we had a opportunity to get a mix of 900's and 175's. But mostly 900's

TBirdie
06-01-2017, 06:28 AM
Was just told that the wait list for the E175 training extends into next year for new guys.

Whether recruiting was telling this guy the truth or bluffing because they want more CRJ guys and just assumed he'd switch if they said that, I dunno.


The waitlist for the 175 is really that long? Dang! Can anyone else confirm this?

livinthedream89
06-01-2017, 06:36 AM
The waitlist for the 175 is really that long? Dang! Can anyone else confirm this?



I just got the offer this week and was told by HR there are people waiting for 175 classes all the way into October. I was encouraged to take the CRJ if I wanted to get a class sooner than that.

310skying
06-01-2017, 06:55 AM
Most of the new flying will not be on the 175, skywest is working out a deal for at least 75 new 900s in a 70 seat configuration, a lot of the flying would be new delta west coast flying.

CBreezy
06-01-2017, 07:03 AM
I just got the offer this week and was told by HR there are people waiting for 175 classes all the way into October. I was encouraged to take the CRJ if I wanted to get a class sooner than that.

There is absolutely no reason to delay going to class 4 months for an airplane type. Go now, get the seniority and flight time.

rickair7777
06-01-2017, 07:06 AM
Hey thanks for removing my post about caselaw from the previous Skywest ALPA organizing committee, which is public information filed in federal courts. Why don't you go into every other forum and censor all ALPA related posts as well. Not sure why you are only patrolling any talk of a union on the Skywest thread.

I'm "patrolling" this particular thread, which is not about unions at all (go read the title again).

Bottom line, folks want to be able to discuss this issue without union fervor (either for or against) muddying the waters.

Since there is ZERO chance that alpa will have anything to do with this contract there's no need to include it here.

If somebody wants to create a SKW Union thread in this forum, feel free to do that. Just keep it civil.

livinthedream89
06-01-2017, 07:07 AM
There is absolutely no reason to delay going to class 4 months for an airplane type. Go now, get the seniority and flight time.



You're right. I'm not delaying for the 175. They just offered that information when they called.

CBreezy
06-01-2017, 07:21 AM
You're right. I'm not delaying for the 175. They just offered that information when they called.

Not necessarily talking about you, but about the people who have delayed until October. The only reason to do that would be to get a domicile for the 175 that wasn't available for the CRJ.

CBreezy
06-01-2017, 07:22 AM
I'm "patrolling" this particular thread, which is not about unions at all (go read the title again).

Bottom line, folks want to be able to discuss this issue without union fervor (either for or against) muddying the waters.

Since there is ZERO chance that alpa will have anything to do with this contract there's no need to include it here.

If somebody wants to create a SKW Union thread in this forum, feel free to do that. Just keep it civil.

So, then you're going to delete all posts that don't have anything to do with "new Skywest pay package?" that I've read on this thread so far? Maybe, like people asking about delays in E175 training?

Turbosina
06-01-2017, 07:23 AM
Most of the new flying will not be on the 175, skywest is working out a deal for at least 75 new 900s in a 70 seat configuration, a lot of the flying would be new delta west coast flying.
I sure hope you're right!!

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 08:51 AM
Most of the new flying will not be on the 175, skywest is working out a deal for at least 75 new 900s in a 70 seat configuration, a lot of the flying would be new delta west coast flying.

Oh this is a gem

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hbal.gif

310skying
06-01-2017, 09:14 AM
You can doubt all you want, and I totally understand where your doubts are coming from, and i'll be happy to watch you eat your words when the new flying and purchase order is announced. The 900 just makes more sense right now. Bombardier is hurting for orders and capital right now! They are desperate to secure a large order of planes, and would be willing to offer a significant price cut for such a deal. In addition to this the new E2 does not meet scope requirements and there is still a line up for 175 orders. This makes dealing with the more desperate and accommodating Bombardier a much more appetizing prospect. The 900 when configured in 70 seats will allow for a much more comparable cabin feel to the 175 (yes the over head baggage space will still suck), but it allows for an immediate bump in capacity if scope ever gets relaxed on 76 seaters making SkyWest much more dynamic and able to respond to partners needs and wishes. Finally though, Chip likes cheap airplanes...

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 09:17 AM
You can doubt all you want, and I totally understand where your doubts are coming from, and i'll be happy to watch you eat your words when the new flying and purchase order is announced. The 900 just makes more sense right now. Bombardier is hurting for orders and capital right now! They are desperate to secure a large order of planes, and would be willing to offer a significant price cut for such a deal. In addition to this the new E2 does not meet scope requirements and there is still a line up for 175 orders. This makes dealing with the more desperate and accommodating Bombardier a much more appetizing prospect. The 900 when configured in 70 seats will allow for a much more comparable cabin feel to the 175 (yes the over head baggage space will still suck), but it allows for an immediate bump in capacity if scope ever gets relaxed on 76 seaters making SkyWest much more dynamic and able to respond to partners needs and wishes. Finally though, Chip likes cheap airplanes...

Oh I will gladly eat my words. Whats funny is, when this does not happen you will up and vanish like a fart in the wind. You are funny.

trip
06-01-2017, 09:27 AM
The Canucks pretty much gave every RJ operator the middle finger for support when they put all their efforts behind the much touted CS series.
I'd be surprised to see the biggest operator of CRJ's go back to Canada for anything.

N1234
06-01-2017, 09:41 AM
The Canucks pretty much gave every RJ operator the middle finger for support when they put all their efforts behind the much touted CS series.
I'd be surprised to see the biggest operator of CRJ's go back to Canada for anything.

I also doubt that anyone would buy new 900's at this time. Maybe we are picking up some used ones but I cannot see us placing an order for new 900's.

rickair7777
06-01-2017, 11:19 AM
So, then you're going to delete all posts that don't have anything to do with "new Skywest pay package?" that I've read on this thread so far? Maybe, like people asking about delays in E175 training?

Training delays are not controversial and do not incite irrational religious fervor, so they can stay. Anything more about unions goes.

word302
06-01-2017, 11:31 AM
Training delays are not controversial and do not incite irrational religious fervor, so they can stay. Anything more about unions goes.

I'm not sure what rule the removed posts was breaking. Can you give me a link?

futurav8r
06-01-2017, 01:54 PM
I did not listen to today's conference call, but from RJ's notes, the details of the pay package could be out as early as tomorrow...
Then, we can see whether all the rumors/angst/speculation was worth it.
I'm looking forward to seeing the details.

BTW, I'm glad our SAPA reps voted to let us see it and vote on it. I don't think that the reps voting to let us see it implies that ALL of them support the agreement. We'll see how that plays out in any roadshows/messages from them.

We can always vote it down and see what the second offer is like...at least we're opening two new bases, NOT tied to any vote.

Duesenflieger
06-01-2017, 01:58 PM
Oh I will gladly eat my words. Whats funny is, when this does not happen you will up and vanish like a fart in the wind. You are funny.

I hear a mix of CRJ 900s and ERJ 175s.... In either case, this is good because upgrade times will fall lower. God, I hope.

BrewCity
06-01-2017, 02:13 PM
Please point to the violation of terms of service. Unions are not religion and therefore not a violation. In fact, union discussion is expressly approved discussion as you have an entire forum dedicated to just discussing unions. I didn't realize things could be deleted because rickair disagreed with the non-prohibited content. Sounds like I need to become a moderator so I can delete comments I disagree with. Where do I sign up?

I think that this section of the forum rules would apply:

Stay on topic as best you can, and don't hijack a topic - just start a new thread. Topics do tend to ebb and flow, but if the topic gets too far away from the primary point, start a new thread!

One question about training delays falls under the "ebb and flow" but five pages of union arguments definitely strays too far away from the primary point.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/rules-announcements/60804-forum-rules.html

rickair7777
06-01-2017, 02:16 PM
I'm not sure what rule the removed posts was breaking. Can you give me a link?

This rule, from the TOS:

Stay on topic as best you can, and don't hijack a topic - just start a new thread. Topics do tend to ebb and flow, but if the topic gets too far away from the primary point, start a new thread!

CBreezy
06-01-2017, 02:17 PM
I think that this section of the forum rules would apply:



One question about training delays falls under the "ebb and flow" but five pages of union arguments definitely strays too far away from the primary point.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/rules-announcements/60804-forum-rules.html

I have no problem veering back to discussing the contents or suspects contents of the next contract. To say that all union talk is banned and deleting all related posts is wholly inappropriate.

word302
06-01-2017, 02:28 PM
I did not listen to today's conference call, but from RJ's notes, the details of the pay package could be out as early as tomorrow...
Then, we can see whether all the rumors/angst/speculation was worth it.
I'm looking forward to seeing the details.

BTW, I'm glad our SAPA reps voted to let us see it and vote on it. I don't think that the reps voting to let us see it implies that ALL of them support the agreement. We'll see how that plays out in any roadshows/messages from them.

We can always vote it down and see what the second offer is like...at least we're opening two new bases, NOT tied to any vote.
Uh..they have to let us vote on pay packages. It's in the bylaws.

word302
06-01-2017, 02:29 PM
I have no problem veering back to discussing the contents or suspects contents of the next contract. To say that all union talk is banned and deleting all related posts is wholly inappropriate.

Completely agree.

word302
06-01-2017, 02:29 PM
This rule, from the TOS:

Stay on topic as best you can, and don't hijack a topic - just start a new thread. Topics do tend to ebb and flow, but if the topic gets too far away from the primary point, start a new thread!

So just basically at your discretion? Smells funny.

rickair7777
06-01-2017, 02:33 PM
So just basically at your discretion? Smells funny.

No that's verbatim from the TOS. But yes mods do have some discretion kind of necessary for the job.

ecam
06-01-2017, 02:37 PM
Most of the new flying will not be on the 175, skywest is working out a deal for at least 75 new 900s in a 70 seat configuration, a lot of the flying would be new delta west coast flying.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Are you intentionally trolling or is it accidental?

There is NO WAY SkyWest is buying factory new CRJs. Even if your theory/rumor/flamebait made any sense economically in the first place, to fly -900s with 70 seats, there is no reason on earth to do it with brand new planes. If anything, they would just take the -900s from ASA after they shut down next year and use them. But putting 70 seats in a -900 makes no sense economically since they could just do it WITH A CRJ -700! And again, there's a whole lot of them they can get their hands on.

So either you're trolling, clueless, or a management guy holding out a carrot. Either way, in my best Vinny Gambini voice "your theory don't hold wawtah".

hawk21
06-01-2017, 03:11 PM
You can doubt all you want, and I totally understand where your doubts are coming from, and i'll be happy to watch you eat your words when the new flying and purchase order is announced. The 900 just makes more sense right now. Bombardier is hurting for orders and capital right now! They are desperate to secure a large order of planes, and would be willing to offer a significant price cut for such a deal. In addition to this the new E2 does not meet scope requirements and there is still a line up for 175 orders. This makes dealing with the more desperate and accommodating Bombardier a much more appetizing prospect. The 900 when configured in 70 seats will allow for a much more comparable cabin feel to the 175 (yes the over head baggage space will still suck), but it allows for an immediate bump in capacity if scope ever gets relaxed on 76 seaters making SkyWest much more dynamic and able to respond to partners needs and wishes. Finally though, Chip likes cheap airplanes...

This rumor has been floating around for awhile now and has some traction these days. Would not be surprised whatsoever when/ if it is officially announced and everyone laughing now eats their words. I think this ultimately depends on how the next pay package ("extension") goes as stated by RJ.

ecam
06-01-2017, 03:19 PM
I think this ultimately depends on how the next pay package ("extension") goes as stated by RJ.

So management IS on here handing out carrots. Sweet. :rolleyes:

Duesenflieger
06-01-2017, 04:29 PM
So management IS on here handing out carrots. Sweet. :rolleyes:

Why does it concern you? Aren't you at Allegiant?

Skyw
06-01-2017, 04:32 PM
ExpressJet pilots just received retention bonuses today. 10,000 for new hires and current FOs. Captains only get 3,000. United is about to sign a long-term extension on the E145. Not sure how ExpressJet plans on staffing the 100 plus aircraft? Pilots don't want to work there. This could be a costly mistake by SkyWest management, unless they plan on opening up their wallets to pay a significant amount of money to attract and retain pilots. ALPA is working with ExpressJet to increase hourly pay and improve QOL...possibly more bonuses in the near future.

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 04:34 PM
This rumor has been floating around for awhile now and has some traction these days. Would not be surprised whatsoever when/ if it is officially announced and everyone laughing now eats their words. I think this ultimately depends on how the next pay package ("extension") goes as stated by RJ.

Rumors are a dime a dozen in the airline industry. At least believe rumors that make somewhat sense and fit some sort of logic. This is silly.

Squallrider
06-01-2017, 04:38 PM
I'd be a little ticked as a captain.

AboveMins
06-01-2017, 04:43 PM
ExpressJet pilots just received retention bonuses today. 10,000 for new hires and current FOs. Captains only get 3,000. United is about to sign a long-term extension on the E145. Not sure how ExpressJet plans on staffing the 100 plus aircraft? Pilots don't want to work there. This could be a costly mistake by SkyWest management, unless they plan on opening up their wallets to pay a significant amount of money to attract and retain pilots. ALPA is working with ExpressJet to increase hourly pay and improve QOL...possibly more bonuses in the near future.

It's actually $8500 for FOs and $1500 for CAs, on top of the previously offered "profit sharing", to be paid out at the end of the year. It's a cute gesture, but it won't keep anyone from jumping off the sinking ship. I wouldn't​ put any stock in any long term extension of our 145s. They've given our good airframes to the bottom feeders, and what planes are left at XJT are on life support. These planes probably don't have 5 years left in them.

Almighty mods, forgive me for the thread drift, carry on...

DirkDiggler
06-01-2017, 05:18 PM
The sentiment on the XJT forum is very bad over this announcement. After all the hype it appears to be a major disappointment. Other regionals are still offering way more $. I would not be surprised if the Skywest announcement was pretty much the same thing.

hawk21
06-01-2017, 05:27 PM
So management IS on here handing out carrots. Sweet. :rolleyes:

I am definitely not management. Cute joke though.

hawk21
06-01-2017, 05:28 PM
Rumors are a dime a dozen in the airline industry. At least believe rumors that make somewhat sense and fit some sort of logic. This is silly.

People thought SAN and BOI base openings were silly.

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 05:30 PM
People thought SAN and BOI base openings were silly.

Ok I'll feed you the rope...

Do tell, what ounce of logic does bringing 900's configured with 70 seats bring to the table? You seem pretty in tune with this fun little rumor...

Duesenflieger
06-01-2017, 05:38 PM
We will see shortly enough tomorrow morning. Hoping for the best, darn it....

AboveMins
06-01-2017, 05:53 PM
The sentiment on the XJT forum is very bad over this announcement. After all the hype it appears to be a major disappointment. Other regionals are still offering way more $. I would not be surprised if the Skywest announcement was pretty much the same thing.

Well, disappointment is the norm for us, is it not? Prediction: we'll still leave in droves. No one at XJT (save for a few, judging by our message board) is buying the Atlanta or St. George bullshizen any more. They made their bed, let them sleep in it.

RemoveB4Flight
06-01-2017, 05:59 PM
The sentiment on the XJT forum is very bad over this announcement. After all the hype it appears to be a major disappointment. Other regionals are still offering way more $. I would not be surprised if the Skywest announcement was pretty much the same thing.

Hmm why can't I find that. I seem to be having trouble. Doesn't look like much activity on their forum and I didn't see any mention of pay announcement/bonuses.

hawk21
06-01-2017, 06:00 PM
Ok I'll feed you the rope...

Do tell, what ounce of logic does bringing 900's configured with 70 seats bring to the table? You seem pretty in tune with this fun little rumor...

Never said anything about the 70 seat configuration. I'm simply stating there is real possibility of more 900 deliveries. Today is the first time I've heard of the 70 seat config part of the rumor.

AboveMins
06-01-2017, 06:07 PM
Hmm why can't I find that. I seem to be having trouble. Doesn't look like much activity on their forum and I didn't see any mention of pay announcement/bonuses.

We have our own in-house board elsewhere... Reception has been about 70% negative over there so far.

hawk21
06-01-2017, 06:09 PM
XJT bonus announcement is probably a decent indication of what's coming tomorrow morning.

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 06:29 PM
Never said anything about the 70 seat configuration. I'm simply stating there is real possibility of more 900 deliveries. Today is the first time I've heard of the 70 seat config part of the rumor.

And where are these 900s coming from, and where are they supposed to be going?

DirkDiggler
06-01-2017, 06:37 PM
Hmm why can't I find that. I seem to be having trouble. Doesn't look like much activity on their forum and I didn't see any mention of pay announcement/bonuses.

This forum (http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/showthread.php?56775-10-000-FO-retention-bonuses-discuss!), not APC.

amcnd
06-01-2017, 06:37 PM
And where are these 900s coming from, and where are they supposed to be going?

Canada... USA... No one knows... heard there are several RFP's out. Our luck more 200's... im getting tired of 6 leg days!!!!

What a jam packed week. New bases, TA coming out, XJT getting bonuses...

Mercyful Fate
06-01-2017, 06:45 PM
Canada... USA... No one knows... heard there are several RFP's out. Our luck more 200's... im getting tired of 6 leg days!!!!

What a jam packed week. New bases, TA coming out, XJT getting bonuses...


Sounds like a pretty solid and reliable rumor to be buying into...

http://i.imgur.com/XCavvfK.gif

hawk21
06-01-2017, 07:36 PM
And where are these 900s coming from, and where are they supposed to be going?

ASA/XJT/Bombardier. Not sure why you are doubting this idea so much. I give up.

bocran
06-02-2017, 04:37 AM
ASA/XJT/Bombardier. Not sure why you are doubting this idea so much. I give up.

Not going to happen.

TheFly
06-02-2017, 05:19 AM
Just got the email with the proposed pay package...any thoughts?

Simpsons
06-02-2017, 05:20 AM
Well it's out. No bonuses. The 200 rate still seems low. And I don't get why the charts doesn't include bonuses from other airlines.

Cefiro
06-02-2017, 05:20 AM
It's out....meh

ImPilot I Fly
06-02-2017, 05:34 AM
My laughter is almost uncontrollable.

Simpsons
06-02-2017, 05:36 AM
Actually, I should clarify. I get why the bonuses aren't included in the chart. It's because doing so puts us at the top. While I don't think bonuses are the only answer to the problem I do think they help. After 1 year of working at OO even with the rate at $36.50 I made about $24k because all that time in training just slows you down. I know, poor me, back in your day you made $16 an hour first year and starved to death before you hit that second year pay increase.

310skying
06-02-2017, 05:39 AM
Where is merciful fate? ill eat my words now, the pay package is garbage. I hope is does not pass and because of that, i hope for no new planes until we get a better pay package offer.

Simpsons
06-02-2017, 05:42 AM
Where is merciful fate? ill eat my words now, the pay package is garbage. I hope is does not pass and because of that, i hope for no new planes until we get a better pay package offer.
Print your post out and eat the paper on video

DirkDiggler
06-02-2017, 05:48 AM
Anyone want to give a summary so us XJT people can compare our garbage to your garbage lol.

slough
06-02-2017, 05:49 AM
I love the no raise in 2018. They just skipped a year. Actually impressed by the balls it took for them to put that in there. Boom time for airline profits and were asked to accept a 0% raise in 2018. Lol

The note about giving the company the freedom to raise first year to pay at their discretion is good too. And the threats on lost flying opportunities.

Beatings continue until morale improves

amcnd
06-02-2017, 05:51 AM
Just got the email with the proposed pay package...any thoughts?

I like it.. good 401k (10%). Better profit sharing (with better min values) tied to "growth opportunity"...

Rocksteady
06-02-2017, 05:52 AM
Yeah this is an easy no for me

slough
06-02-2017, 05:55 AM
It only takes 15 years to get to the new 10% 401k match. Lol

skiK2
06-02-2017, 05:58 AM
I like it.. good 401k (10%). Better profit sharing (with better min values) tied to "growth opportunity"...

Garbage. I do like the 401k increase, but when one takes advantage of it, it reduces take home pay. So there in reality, there is no raise.

LAX2MSP
06-02-2017, 05:59 AM
https://myleezakardash.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/image-1.jpg

WesternSkies
06-02-2017, 06:02 AM
Anyone want to give a summary so us XJT people can compare our garbage to your garbage lol.

8-10% total
Spread over five years.

No. No thanks. Good luck.

Seminole00
06-02-2017, 06:12 AM
1% raise....who would've thought. :confused::rolleyes:

rickair7777
06-02-2017, 06:13 AM
It only takes 15 years to get to the new 10% 401k match. Lol

That was a bone for the older crowd. Otherwise the only raise they get is the 1%. And they're probably more worried about retirement too.

Cefiro
06-02-2017, 06:17 AM
The note about giving the company the freedom to raise first year to pay at their discretion is good too. And the threats on lost flying opportunities.

Beatings continue until morale improves

I'm not crazy about this either....I'm glad first year FOs are making a living wage. But, I'm tired of them getting 50% pay increases while the people on property get 1 or 2%.

slough
06-02-2017, 06:18 AM
That was a bone for the older crowd. Otherwise the only raise they get is the 1%. And they're probably more worried about retirement too.

Yeah. Everyone saying 401k match was 10% had me thinking that would for everyone.

TimetoClimb
06-02-2017, 06:26 AM
Actually, I should clarify. I get why the bonuses aren't included in the chart. It's because doing so puts us at the top. While I don't think bonuses are the only answer to the problem I do think they help. After 1 year of working at OO even with the rate at $36.50 I made about $24k because all that time in training just slows you down. I know, poor me, back in your day you made $16 an hour first year and starved to death before you hit that second year pay increase.

Shush...Those guys walked to the airport uphill, in the snow, in both directions!!

The fact of the matter is middle class wages are not even keeping up with inflation and cost of living, and this 'extension' is a perfect example.

CBreezy
06-02-2017, 06:26 AM
I love the no raise in 2018. They just skipped a year. Actually impressed by the balls it took for them to put that in there. Boom time for airline profits and were asked to accept a 0% raise in 2018. Lol

The note about giving the company the freedom to raise first year to pay at their discretion is good too. And the threats on lost flying opportunities.

Beatings continue until morale improves

First year pay rates should never be allowed at the company's discretion. In this environment, it is their biggest recruiting tool and a BIG company want. If they want that flexibility, pay rates across the board need to be triggered anytime first year rate is increased.

Is offline
06-02-2017, 06:27 AM
I want to know who the 1 rep was that voted this down and I think he needs to be the next president. This is a joke. It's 1% a year and they didn't even bother to match the xjt retirement. If your not getting 3%/year you are taking a pay cut.

prc4prc
06-02-2017, 06:36 AM
As someone with less than a year on property, I have 2 goals. Leave ASAP and if possible upgrade. Being an FO at a regional... Well... Enough said. Do more airplanes = a faster upgrade? I don't know. No regional FO payscale is going to match 2nd year regional CA pay - which is a livable wage. There is not enough information with what was put out today to say yes.

FO pay, in my opinion should not be the bellwether for anyone. CA pay should.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

TimetoClimb
06-02-2017, 07:06 AM
As someone with less than a year on property, I have 2 goals. Leave ASAP and if possible upgrade. Being an FO at a regional... Well... Enough said. Do more airplanes = a faster upgrade? I don't know. No regional FO payscale is going to match 2nd year regional CA pay - which is a livable wage. There is not enough information with what was put out today to say yes.

FO pay, in my opinion should not be the bellwether for anyone. CA pay should.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

This IMO is a very defeatist attitude. You don't care whether or not you are fairly compensated now because at some nebulous point in the future, at some unknown carrier, you anticipate you'll be making more??

My goals are similar to yours and so is my seniority, but I believe we should be asking for what we are worth as professionals. You think regional FO is some 'meh, anyone could do it' kind of job? It took me a huge amount of effort and sacrifice to even get to this entry level. The company is offering crumbs to us, when we are absolutely vital and skilled and underpaid workers. I'm not saying we should be making CA pay but 37.30 or whatever it is is simply not enough for the bases they have us in except for maybe Detroit.

peepz
06-02-2017, 07:13 AM
It's not going to pass so I'm not worried one bit.

tcco94
06-02-2017, 07:22 AM
You guys have called everything pretty much correct lately. BOI/SAN bases, pay negation rumors and the 2/0/1/1/1 raise is pretty much on point with what you all argued it would be.

I'm impressed. I'll take your word now :)

labbats
06-02-2017, 08:09 AM
Skywest has always had a very good group of upbeat and nice pilots.

Unfortunately that gives management no reason to pay you more. It stinks the world works this way but nice guys finish last. Only way to force a pay raise in the airline industry is lack of pilots applying and/or very disgruntled pilot group. Skywest has never had much of either.

Tippy
06-02-2017, 08:16 AM
Nope, just nope.... I dont expect the moon at a regional level, but expect more than crumbs.

"we have pushed the company beyond their comfort level in terms of cost"

Thats a good one! this Doesnt even keep up with the cost of living/inflation. Therefore this actually MAKES the company more money in the long run.

Mistek89
06-02-2017, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=prc4prc;2373030]As someone with less than a year on property, I have 2 goals. Leave ASAP and if possible upgrade. Being an FO at a regional... Well... Enough said. Do more airplanes = a faster upgrade? I don't know. No regional FO payscale is going to match 2nd year regional CA pay - which is a livable wage. There is not enough information with what was put out today to say yes.

FO pay, in my opinion should not be the bellwether for anyone. CA pay should.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

FO pay should be increased , in my opinion it should be in the upper $40 mark . Guess what while waiting to upgrade to captain people have bills to pay and want to live a normal life . People like you are the problem . But then again this is probably your first job so you are entitled to everything .

AUpilot77
06-02-2017, 08:47 AM
If your not getting 3%/year you are taking a pay cut.

Not disagreeing about the package being a joke but while your statement is correct, the percentage increase per year that each pilot makes does go up more than 3% a year. The 1% increases are for same year pay (if you were stuck at for example 5 year pay). Since no one is unless you're an 8 year FO, each pilot adds 1% to the difference between the previous years current and next year pay. Not 1% to your pay last year.

Timmay
06-02-2017, 09:02 AM
It's not going to pass so I'm not worried one bit.

I said the same thing about Trump during last year's election.

amcnd
06-02-2017, 10:02 AM
And i never thought flightinfo.com would be a ghost town.. if you guessed the outcome from this or any forum board alone. Your way off. 80% of SkyWest pilots haven't heard of this forum or even our own sapa forums... Voter turnout has always been the weakness of SkyWest.. Me personally im voting Yes.. i want the 401k and im very smart with my money, i want the growth. My main issue is i would luke to be more senior.. getting growth is the only way that will help me..

Read RJ's opening page. That is good info. And make most realize were we are and were that will put us. Not just in pay but in position for the future...

For those that just blurt out "vote No". I ask. Do you call and listen to the sapa conference calls?, do you talk to your reps? The answer is probably not. Because the call turn out is less the 100. Thats out of 4297 pilots...