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View Full Version : Cancellations


ForeverJunior
06-19-2017, 07:46 AM
Anyone have the total cancellation numbers for the weekend. I only looked at yesterday's. Alaska had 5 cancelled flights, 3 of those due to lack of pilot crew. Horizon had 20 cancelled flights, 17 due to lack of pilot crew.

I know on the Alaska side, we had a number of cancellations on Saturday. I heard flight 68 cancelled because they couldn't find a captain to cover it.


ImperialxRat
06-19-2017, 10:38 AM
Anyone have the total cancellation numbers for the weekend. I only looked at yesterday's. Alaska had 5 cancelled flights, 3 of those due to lack of pilot crew. Horizon had 20 cancelled flights, 17 due to lack of pilot crew.

I know on the Alaska side, we had a number of cancellations on Saturday. I heard flight 68 cancelled because they couldn't find a captain to cover it.

They need to put that new bid out.

ForeverJunior
06-19-2017, 10:54 AM
They need to put that new bid out.

The new bid isn't going to help the summer schedule.

"We are adequately staffed."


Arctichicken
06-19-2017, 12:23 PM
They need to put that new bid out.

I would venture to guess the company can't gauge the new bid since the bottom is falling out. There are several FOs who've been hired elsewhere just waiting for a class date or sitting on the fence about to pull the trigger.

EskimoJoe
06-19-2017, 02:12 PM
I would venture to guess the company can't gauge the new bid since the bottom is falling out. There are several FOs who've been hired elsewhere just waiting for a class date or sitting on the fence about to pull the trigger.
The should over-plan, for once. I don't think management has the foggiest idea how many guys hired in the last few years are set to bail. Better to get in front of the hiring needs...instead of planning on ridiculously optimistic assumption of retention.

Galaxy5
06-19-2017, 02:57 PM
The should over-plan, for once. I don't think management has the foggiest idea how many guys hired in the last few years are set to bail. Better to get in front of the hiring needs...instead of planning on ridiculously optimistic assumption of retention.

Aboslute troof here. When I was in class, JH welcomed us and said that so many people say they'll leave when The Widget or SWA or someone else calls "but when they get here and find out what a great family we are and what a great place it is to work, they don't ever leave. In fact, in the 6 years I've been hiring, we've only seen maybe half a dozen go."

So since that happened a few months ago and I apparently became number 7, I also know numbers 8, 9, and 10. They do need a reality check, or it's just going to get worse for you guys. Everyone, work groups and management, needs to look at the QX cautionary tale.

coolyokeluke
06-19-2017, 04:01 PM
What's the Horizon cautionary tale? The same one playing across the regional industry (few pilots left to hire)?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Galaxy5
06-19-2017, 04:10 PM
What's the Horizon cautionary tale? The same one playing across the regional industry (few pilots left to hire)?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

How management's going to play you, and how that's bad for recruiting and turnover.

ForeverJunior
06-19-2017, 04:36 PM
Aboslute troof here. When I was in class, JH welcomed us and said that so many people say they'll leave when The Widget or SWA or someone else calls "but when they get here and find out what a great family we are and what a great place it is to work, they don't ever leave. In fact, in the 6 years I've been hiring, we've only seen maybe half a dozen go."

So since that happened a few months ago and I apparently became number 7, I also know numbers 8, 9, and 10. They do need a reality check, or it's just going to get worse for you guys. Everyone, work groups and management, needs to look at the QX cautionary tale.

Of course, JH's half dozen in 6 years figure is complete BS.

Anyway, congratulations on making the move. Onward and upward. Good luck.

Arctichicken
06-19-2017, 05:05 PM
Of course, JH's half dozen in 6 years figure is complete BS.

Anyway, congratulations on making the move. Onward and upward. Good luck.

JH and his peers/bosses are company robots with 2 memory slots, one to deposit funds and the other to play company propaganda. Most dangerous soulless beings are those who'll do anything for money.

Moose
06-19-2017, 06:53 PM
This...........

JH and his peers/bosses are company robots with 2 memory slots, one to deposit funds and the other to play company propaganda. Most dangerous soulless beings are those who'll do anything for money.

Klsytakesit
06-19-2017, 09:29 PM
I would venture to guess the company can't gauge the new bid since the bottom is falling out. There are several FOs who've been hired elsewhere just waiting for a class date or sitting on the fence about to pull the trigger.

Nothing happens at Marley Air by chance....After 18 plus years I have only learned that.....If cancellations bothered Brad and Ben then there would be no cancellations...Alaska Airlines runs per "the Plan"....No one in Labor has that plan...Therefore it appears that there is no plan....These guys are all the way smart....relax

Packrat
06-20-2017, 07:43 AM
How many flights a day does AS have? 600? I once had a manager tell me they could accept a daily cancellation rate of 5-10%. So until they start cancelling in excess of 60 flights EVERY DAY, nothing is going to change on the staffing front. If you're a manager, you LOVE VSA.

As an aside, there are very senior AS pilots in the 50+ age range looking at jumping to Delta. Chew on that for awhile.

Work2much
06-20-2017, 07:48 AM
Nothing happens at Marley Air by chance....After 18 plus years I have only learned that.....If cancellations bothered Brad and Ben then there would be no cancellations...Alaska Airlines runs per "the Plan"....No one in Labor has that plan...Therefore it appears that there is no plan....These guys are all the way smart....relax

Do you think you could use less (...) and more (.) It's really hard to read your posts.

ForeverJunior
06-20-2017, 07:57 AM
Do you think you could use less (...) and more (.) It's really hard to read your posts.

*fewer ;) :D

Wynncore
06-20-2017, 10:15 AM
How many flights a day does AS have? 600? I once had a manager tell me they could accept a daily cancellation rate of 5-10%. So until they start cancelling in excess of 60 flights EVERY DAY, nothing is going to change on the staffing front. If you're a manager, you LOVE VSA.

As an aside, there are very senior AS pilots in the 50+ age range looking at jumping to Delta. Chew on that for awhile.

They're just talking...why would anyone in their right mind give up their seniority and longevity here to go to Delta and likely make less over the twilight of their career especially when they're likely to get at least a 15%-25% raise this Fall. Anyone who actually does that in the seniority regime you're speaking of needs their head examined!

Work2much
06-20-2017, 11:15 AM
*fewer ;) :D

I'll give you that one ;)

Packrat
06-20-2017, 01:46 PM
They're just talking...why would anyone in their right mind give up their seniority and longevity here to go to Delta and likely make less over the twilight of their career especially when they're likely to get at least a 15%-25% raise this Fall. Anyone who actually does that in the seniority regime you're speaking of needs their head examined!

I was kind of thinking the same thing, but they were dead serious.

Wynncore
06-20-2017, 02:43 PM
I was kind of thinking the same thing, but they were dead serious.

Dang. Well like denial, bitterness can be overpowering at times!

BiloxiJack
06-20-2017, 03:01 PM
If the raise is only 15-25 percent, I'll be leaving at the first opportunity that presents itself..as will at least 13 other first officers that I keep up with on a regular basis.They're just talking...why would anyone in their right mind give up their seniority and longevity here to go to Delta and likely make less over the twilight of their career especially when they're likely to get at least a 15%-25% raise this Fall. Anyone who actually does that in the seniority regime you're speaking of needs their head examined!

waterboy
06-20-2017, 04:07 PM
If the raise is only 15-25 percent, I'll be leaving at the first opportunity that presents itself..as will at least 13 other first officers that I keep up with on a regular basis.

Right there with you. I think if we were shooting for 15-25% we would have a contract by now. According to union emails, the company cant wrap their head around the current market rates. Which tells me we are shooting for a lot higher. And i support them 100% for it.

Klsytakesit
06-20-2017, 07:28 PM
Do you think you could use less (...) and more (.) It's really hard to read your posts.

I promise to try and use fewer dots in my posts.

Klsytakesit
06-20-2017, 07:38 PM
Arbitrator is going to give us 20% over 3 years. That will keep us under American. We will get no meaningful scope. He will direct us to negotiate that in 2020. Retirement will be 2.5% over 3 years...Unless you are waiting on a class date at a major to pull the trigger you likely are not going anywhere.

Wynncore
06-20-2017, 10:56 PM
If the raise is only 15-25 percent, I'll be leaving at the first opportunity that presents itself..as will at least 13 other first officers that I keep up with on a regular basis.

The 15-25% figure I used was referring to the CAs who are topped out on the AS pay scale. 15% brings them to $248, 25% brings them to $270.

Bugaboo
06-21-2017, 08:48 AM
Arbitrator is going to give us 20% over 3 years. That will keep us under American. We will get no meaningful scope. He will direct us to negotiate that in 2020. Retirement will be 2.5% over 3 years...Unless you are waiting on a class date at a major to pull the trigger you likely are not going anywhere.

I don't think anyone can make an accurate prediction on what the arbitrator will hand out when this goes to arbitration. I personally think that, if the arbitrator handed out what you say above, he would be looking over his shoulder for a long time.:)

sailingfun
06-21-2017, 09:03 AM
I don't think anyone can make an accurate prediction on what the arbitrator will hand out when this goes to arbitration. I personally think that, if the arbitrator handed out what you say above, he would be looking over his shoulder for a long time.:)

You guys do understand that arbitrators don't award or hand out anything. They can only suggest options to bring each side to a agreement. They have no power to award or dictate.

RJs2majors
06-21-2017, 09:48 AM
You guys do understand that arbitrators don't award or hand out anything. They can only suggest options to bring each side to a agreement. They have no power to award or dictate.

You are talking about mediation. Arbitration is binding. It's the last straw, so to speak.
Arbitration, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), is a technique for the resolution of disputes outside the courts. The parties to a dispute refer it to arbitration by one or more persons (the "arbitrators", "arbiters" or "arbitral tribunal"), and agree to be bound by the arbitration decision (the "award").

ArcticDog
06-21-2017, 09:50 AM
You guys do understand that arbitrators don't award or hand out anything. They can only suggest options to bring each side to a agreement. They have no power to award or dictate.

Tell that to anyone that was here during Kasher...

sailingfun
06-21-2017, 10:31 AM
Tell that to anyone that was here during Kasher...

I meant to say mediator in my post. You guys won't go to arbitration again ever.

sailingfun
06-21-2017, 10:33 AM
You are talking about mediation. Arbitration is binding. It's the last straw, so to speak.
Arbitration, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), is a technique for the resolution of disputes outside the courts. The parties to a dispute refer it to arbitration by one or more persons (the "arbitrators", "arbiters" or "arbitral tribunal"), and agree to be bound by the arbitration decision (the "award").

You can only go to arbitration if both sides agree. That's not going to happen again at AK.

jayme
06-21-2017, 10:35 AM
We've already agreed to go to arbitration if mediation doesn't work out. And our last mediated session is next week.

Packrat
06-21-2017, 10:37 AM
I don't think anyone can make an accurate prediction on what the arbitrator will hand out when this goes to arbitration. I personally think that, if the arbitrator handed out what you say above, he would be looking over his shoulder for a long time.:)

Kasher handed out -22% for CAs and -30+% for F/Os. And the Co. still furloughed a bunch of guys, some for 3+ years. So don't think an arbitrator is guaranteed to hand out raises of any kind.

That's why the term "Kasherstrated" originated.

sailingfun
06-21-2017, 12:53 PM
We've already agreed to go to arbitration if mediation doesn't work out. And our last mediated session is next week.

Didn't you guys get hammered last time in arbitration? You were used several times as a reason you never want to accept arbitration in our negotiations! Did the membership ratify that choice?

RJs2majors
06-21-2017, 01:03 PM
You can only go to arbitration if both sides agree. That's not going to happen again at AK.
Get the facts straight before stroking the keys dude.
Didn't you guys get hammered last time in arbitration? You were used several times as a reason you never want to accept arbitration in our negotiations! Did the membership ratify that choice?
Allegedly.

YXnot
06-21-2017, 06:08 PM
Didn't you guys get hammered last time in arbitration? You were used several times as a reason you never want to accept arbitration in our negotiations! Did the membership ratify that choice?

The membership surely did not ratify that choice. It was agreed to by leadership in the tpa.

Mea25000
06-21-2017, 06:13 PM
If the raise is only 15-25 percent, I'll be leaving at the first opportunity that presents itself..as will at least 13 other first officers that I keep up with on a regular basis.

Well you are about to update your stuff... 20% now 3% 4/1/18

coolyokeluke
06-21-2017, 06:45 PM
Well you are about to update your stuff... 20% now 3% 4/1/18
That was management's offer: a 3% raise in April of next year? Via the latest mediated session?

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BiloxiJack
06-21-2017, 07:21 PM
I think he is saying a 20% raise immediately, then a 3% percent increase 4/18? Is that correct cooly?

Is that a blanket raise for the entire scale or top scale? That would be an absolutely pathetic increase for most of the fo pay scale and some of the ca scale.
That was management's offer: a 3% raise in April of next year? Via the latest mediated session?

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Bugaboo
06-21-2017, 10:53 PM
Kasher handed out -22% for CAs and -30+% for F/Os. And the Co. still furloughed a bunch of guys, some for 3+ years. So don't think an arbitrator is guaranteed to hand out raises of any kind.

That's why the term "Kasherstrated" originated.

I don't think anyone can predict how arbitration will work out when it goes that way.....I hope it does!

Wynncore
06-22-2017, 12:15 AM
I think he is saying a 20% raise immediately, then a 3% percent increase 4/18? Is that correct cooly?

Is that a blanket raise for the entire scale or top scale? That would be an absolutely pathetic increase for most of the fo pay scale and some of the ca scale.

A 20% raise for a 12 year CAs puts them at $259.20. Another 3% raise puts them at $266.97 in April 2018. You are correct concerning FOs, a 20% raise for the FO scale is weak.

Pogey Bait
06-22-2017, 04:21 AM
A 20% raise for a 12 year CAs puts them at $259.20. Another 3% raise puts them at $266.97 in April 2018. You are correct concerning FOs, a 20% raise for the FO scale is weak.

This is not directed just to you. Can we please refrain from talking about percentage or just anything in general about future earning potential. No one knows how any of this will turn out. This is not 2005, just look and sniff around out there. Please do not diminish our bargaining power by putting stray information out in left field.

sailingfun
06-22-2017, 05:55 AM
This is not directed just to you. Can we please refrain from talking about percentage or just anything in general about future earning potential. No one knows how any of this will turn out. This is not 2005, just look and sniff around out there. Please do not diminish our bargaining power by putting stray information out in left field.

I know some will find this harsh but when you agreed to arbitration you surrendered most of your bargininning power. I am still somewhat shocked on how that came about and why the hurry to do so. Arbitration is always offered if mediation fails so there is no need to show your cards early in that regard. I suspect something of value must have been obtained with the arbitration agreement otherwise why leap early?

Packrat
06-22-2017, 07:11 AM
I don't think anyone can predict how arbitration will work out when it goes that way.....I hope it does!

Actually, the arbitrator himself stated outright that every issue EXCEPT PAY would be averaged. Pay would be one side or the other (baseball arbitration). Guess who won?

Packrat
06-22-2017, 07:15 AM
I know some will find this harsh but when you agreed to arbitration you surrendered most of your bargininning power.

You have ZERO bargaining power in arbitration.

Bugaboo
06-22-2017, 09:28 AM
Actually, the arbitrator himself stated outright that every issue EXCEPT PAY would be averaged. Pay would be one side or the other (baseball arbitration). Guess who won?

I am not talking about Kasher....I am familiar with that so thanks. I am talking about what is coming up for AK. If our negotiations continue down the path it is this will go to arbitration. You, nor anyone else, knows how it will go this time. Personally, I do not think AK will bait the hook good enough to keep this from arbitration.

Ispeakjive
06-23-2017, 04:54 PM
Not only will they "...not bait the hook good enough", their overarching goal is to look good to the board of directors. They are treating it like a zero sum game. If we pilots are happy with mediation, then that means BT and BM have failed. They'll leverage the Kasher arbitration to justify arbitration again. Whatever the numbers end up becoming, they can tell BOD, "not our fault". It's a win-win for them to keep lying to us.

snackysmores
06-24-2017, 09:38 PM
What's the Horizon cautionary tale? The same one playing across the regional industry (few pilots left to hire)?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

At Horizon we're cancelling up to 50 flights a day for lack of FOs

Scheduling has been told to break the contract left and right to reassign lineholders to cover trips and it's still not enough.

waterboy
06-25-2017, 03:54 PM
At Horizon we're cancelling up to 50 flights a day for lack of FOs

Scheduling has been told to break the contract left and right to reassign lineholders to cover trips and it's still not enough.

50 flights a day? how many daily flights does Horizon have?

Work2much
06-26-2017, 06:21 AM
At Horizon we're cancelling up to 50 flights a day for lack of FOs

Scheduling has been told to break the contract left and right to reassign lineholders to cover trips and it's still not enough.

According to FlightAware Horizon canceled 6 flights on Saturday, 6 flights on Sunday and so far 2 canceled today.

ForeverJunior
06-26-2017, 07:15 AM
According to FlightAware Horizon canceled 6 flights on Saturday, 6 flights on Sunday and so far 2 canceled today.

Horizon cancelled 40 flights yesterday, 32 of them due to lack of pilot crew. Alaska cancelled 10 flights, 8 due to lack of pilot crew. Today, Horizon is up to 17 cancellations, 8 due to lack of pilot crew and the rest all due to maintenance.

Horizon cancelled 52 flights on Saturday, 45 due to lack of pilot crew. Alaska didn't cancel any flights on Saturday.

I need to start taking daily screenshots of the "Operational Status" page on our company website. BTW, yesterday on that operational status page, this message was posted at 04:39 PDT and it's still up:

"No CA in any bases."

Yet, we get an E-Mail from CZ a couple of days ago and he talks about how things are going to get better in the next couple of months. How? Rainbows and unicorn farts?

We'll have to see how 4th of July and Seafair go.

Ispeakjive
06-27-2017, 02:26 PM
Horizon cancelled 40 flights yesterday, 32 of them due to lack of pilot crew. Alaska cancelled 10 flights, 8 due to lack of pilot crew. Today, Horizon is up to 17 cancellations, 8 due to lack of pilot crew and the rest all due to maintenance.

Horizon cancelled 52 flights on Saturday, 45 due to lack of pilot crew. Alaska didn't cancel any flights on Saturday.

I need to start taking daily screenshots of the "Operational Status" page on our company website. BTW, yesterday on that operational status page, this message was posted at 04:39 PDT and it's still up:

"No CA in any bases."

Yet, we get an E-Mail from CZ a couple of days ago and he talks about how things are going to get better in the next couple of months. How? Rainbows and unicorn farts?

We'll have to see how 4th of July and Seafair go.

I did a quick Google search and couldn't find anything. Is there an ethical way to see if media is on to this trend? Is it indeed legit and verifiable?

N19906
06-27-2017, 06:37 PM
I doubt the media has any idea. Who would clue them in?
CS cold-called me this morning offering double-time for the coming weekend, saying there was lots available if I wanted to help out. I can't remember them EVER doing this before.
We'll see if they try to draft me at the end of my trip.

ForeverJunior
06-27-2017, 07:07 PM
My intent is not to get the media involved, but to just keep everyone reading these Alaska threads informed. I wouldn't want the actions of any of us here to reflect negatively on the AS/VX pilot group. I also don't want to give BM, GM, TK, et al an excuse to accuse our union of doing something like this.

You know they would, as they have in the past. They have inferred that our MEC is telling our pilot group what/how to think. They think that the reduction in premium trips being picked up has something to do with what the union has been communicating to us.

Anyway, I really don't want to be the one tipping off a dork like Glenn Farley or anyone else.

ImperialxRat
06-28-2017, 02:51 PM
I doubt the media has any idea. Who would clue them in?
CS cold-called me this morning offering double-time for the coming weekend, saying there was lots available if I wanted to help out. I can't remember them EVER doing this before.
We'll see if they try to draft me at the end of my trip.

I thought that 150% was the most they could offer, due to a clause in our contract?

N19906
06-28-2017, 09:15 PM
You are correct. That is what the contract says. That is not what the company is doing though; that's why the Teamsters sent out the explanatory e-mail stating why they are opposed to 200% pay.
I.E. = It sets a precedent that the company does whatever they want if it suits their interests. If we accept, we're complicit in blowing off our own contract.
Think about the implications of that.
Me? It's the Fourth of July weekend!!! I've got stuff I want to do more than work. :D

Kitchen25
06-30-2017, 06:54 AM
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/horizon-air-cutting-hundreds-of-flights-this-summer-due-to-pilot-shortage/


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ForeverJunior
06-30-2017, 08:15 AM
Horizon Air cutting hundreds of flights this summer due to pilot shortage | The Seattle Times (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/horizon-air-cutting-hundreds-of-flights-this-summer-due-to-pilot-shortage/)


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Must me nice for corporate execs to never ever take responsibility for their mistakes. They act like the QX situation just happened upon them... that it was a surprise.

Same thing is going to happen at ALK. Things are bad now at "mainline", but they are going to get much worse.

atpcliff
07-01-2017, 01:10 AM
Horizon Air is canceling hundreds of flights because of the "pilot shortage." It's airlines' fault. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/06/30/horizon_air_is_canceling_hundreds_of_flights_becau se_of_the_pilot_shortage.html)

"...American companies don’t have a shortage of people. They have a shortage of wages, benefits, and training. Companies could fix that problem, but they haven’t.
...
But many businesses seem blind to the reality. They’ve become accustomed to thinking they have can have all the labor they want, with all the skills they need, without having to pay much for it or offer long-term job security or help fund the training.
...
To recruit new employees, offer to train them yourselves, or to pay back the loans they incur while getting the training that will enable you to run your business, or offer to split the flight school tuition in exchange for a commitment to work for the airline for several years.

There’s a phrase people in companies use when colleagues complain of a challenging situation. “You’re a businessperson. Figure it out.” Managers and leaders get paid to figure out how to solve the problems they face. Coping with a shortage of skilled workers by shuttering a portion of your operations doesn’t seem like much of a solution."

ForeverJunior
07-01-2017, 03:35 PM
66 cxl, 61 due to lack of pilot crew

757office
07-01-2017, 04:21 PM
Wow!! That is 20% of yalls june cancels (318).

"June will go down as our bump in the road."- Horizon CEO

I'm guessing that July will go down as what? The derailing of the train?

Its funny that your ceo says the same nonsense garbage motivational (but really demotivational) sayings such as be kind hearted and we will shine. What a joke!


66 cxl, 61 due to lack of pilot crew

ForeverJunior
07-01-2017, 06:16 PM
Wow!! That is 20% of yalls june cancels (318).

"June will go down as our bump in the road."- Horizon CEO

I'm guessing that July will go down as what? The derailing of the train?

Its funny that your ceo says the same nonsense garbage motivational (but really demotivational) sayings such as be kind hearted and we will shine. What a joke!

FWIW, I'm an Alaska pilot. Anyway, QX's CEO is cut from the same cloth as the folks who try to manage ALK.

AAG is just one dysfunctional entity.

757office
07-01-2017, 07:47 PM
my mistake brother, should have looked before replying FWIW, I'm an Alaska pilot. Anyway, QX's CEO is cut from the same cloth as the folks who try to manage ALK.

AAG is just one dysfunctional entity.

Going2Baja
07-01-2017, 11:20 PM
66 cxl, 61 due to lack of pilot crew

When, if EVER, will Angle Lake get their heads straight? Do they have meetings asking what is happening and wondering why people are leaving...and then just look at each other and shrug? I'm guessing 75% of AS pilots know the deal and the remaining 25% are either new or just have their heads in the sand.

Good luck dude....The entire industry is behind you!

Baja.

beech1980
07-02-2017, 04:35 AM
When, if EVER, will Angle Lake get their heads straight? Do they have meetings asking what is happening and wondering why people are leaving...and then just look at each other and shrug? I'm guessing 75% of AS pilots know the deal and the remaining 25% are either new or just have their heads in the sand.

Good luck dude....The entire industry is behind you!

Baja.

This isn't what pilots wants to hear... Managments objective is to lower labor costs,maximize profits, and raise the stock price. So if they can delay the contract and drive away higher priced labor (PILOTS) by leaving to the competition and still fly its schedule of flights they have done their jobs. In the long run they know they will eventually have to pay up.
For now they are saving 20-30 million a month. Even with the cancellations the company is still more profitable, than paying the higher labor costs. Yes it looks completely inept to a pilot but in the eyes of the execs it's acceptable. Management knows that a flight deck crew can do the job wether they are both on year twelve or year three of the pay scale, of course year three makes them more dough...
Do you remember the United debacle a few months ago about the beating their passenger had??? That's right. No one else does. They have moved on and the flying public just want their cheap seats with the least amount of legs to get there. We as pilots don't forget because this stuff is our lives... My neighbor couldn't care less. He just wants a cheap seat. That's my take.
I hope just as much as all of us do that Alaska knocks it out of the park with their new contract! Vote no until you get what you want.

sailingfun
07-02-2017, 04:51 AM
This isn't what pilots wants to hear... Managments objective is to lower labor costs,maximize profits, and raise the stock price. So if they can delay the contract and drive away higher priced labor (PILOTS) by leaving to the competition and still fly its schedule of flights they have done their jobs. In the long run they know they will eventually have to pay up.
For now they are saving 20-30 million a month. Even with the cancellations the company is still more profitable, than paying the higher labor costs. Yes it looks completely inept to a pilot but in the eyes of the execs it's acceptable. Management knows that a flight deck crew can do the job wether they are both on year twelve or year three of the pay scale, of course year three makes them more dough...
Do you remember the United debacle a few months ago about the beating their passenger had??? That's right. No one else does. They have moved on and the flying public just want their cheap seats with the least amount of legs to get there. We as pilots don't forget because this stuff is our lives... My neighbor couldn't care less. He just wants a cheap seat. That's my take.
I hope just as much as all of us do that Alaska knocks it out of the park with their new contract! Vote no until you get what you want.

Leisure travelers feel as you mention. Business travelers not so much. Delta ran a crappy airline 10 years ago and could only net 90% of the revenue average in the industry. New management went all out to improve completion factor and ontime. Revenue went to 114% of the industry average and profits soared.

beech1980
07-02-2017, 05:16 AM
Leisure travelers feel as you mention. Business travelers not so much. Delta ran a crappy airline 10 years ago and could only net 90% of the revenue average in the industry. New management went all out to improve completion factor and ontime. Revenue went to 114% of the industry average and profits soared.

I agree business travelers need the reliability. What are their other options when they need to fly on a route that might only be served by Alaska air group? So they are hamstrung in the short and probably ****ed off. Clearly it's only temporary and soon enough the contact will be settled and horizon will pay more to snag pilots from other regionals.

Chris99
07-02-2017, 06:21 AM
Deleted.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Packrat
07-02-2017, 10:18 AM
FWIW, I'm an Alaska pilot. Anyway, QX's CEO is cut from the same cloth as the folks who try to manage ALK.

AAG is just one dysfunctional entity.

AS senior managers are groomed through QX (or have been in the past).

Klsytakesit
07-02-2017, 08:19 PM
Horizon, being just a wholly owned carrier is not on the radar. Alaska Airlines will add more Skywest and throw some mainline back on some of the routes that were traditionally flown with a 737.
The focus for Alaska Airlines leadership is JCBA arbitration and then fanning the flames of integration. We dont becom amenable until 2020. There will be no voting until then. In the meantime most premium flying is being scooped up by all the usuals. Rode in the back on 2 flights today
and both captains got on the PA and talked endlessly about what a great choice Alaska is and how proud we are of JD Power blah blah blah.....Alaska pilots have very short memories. Less than 4 years after the Kasher arbitration ran a wrecking ball through our contract, we voted to give away the pension plan for new hires and got nothing in return. We lag in compensation and work rules because we earned the right to. Nothing to see here. Just a 35 yr old pattern repeating itself.

busbusbaby
07-04-2017, 06:06 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/horizon-air-flight-cancellations-pilot-shortage-2017-7?utm_source=feedly&amp%3Butm_medium=referral&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+businessinsider+%28Business+I nsider%29

jetliner1526
07-21-2017, 09:08 AM
Airline pilots reveals the truths and myths behind the pilot shortage - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/airline-pilots-reveals-truth-myth-pilot-shortage-2017-7)

The pilot shortage is real and airlines must change before it becomes a full-blown crisis

THE PILOT SHORTAGE is here, and it’s been making headlines. Last month, Horizon Air, the Seattle-based affiliate of Alaska Airlines and one of the country’s biggest regional carriers, announced it would be forced to reduce its busy summer schedule due to a dearth of pilots.

The shortage already caused Horizon to cancel more than 300 flights in June. Earlier this year, Republic Airways, a large U.S. regional carrier that flies on behalf of United, American, and Delta, filed for bankruptcy protection. It blamed the filing, in part, on a lack of qualified pilots. Other carriers have been canceling flights and mothballing aircraft as pilot recruitment departments scramble to fill classroom slots.

Yes, the shortage is real. It’s critical, however, to make it clear which sectors of the aviation industry we’re talking about. First, we are looking specifically at the U.S. airline industry. Civilian pilots in the United States are responsible for securing their own FAA credentials, and for logging hundreds, or even thousands, of hours of flight time before applying at an airline. It’s a long, slow, and very expensive process. Other countries often recruit pilots differently, with a growing reliance on so-called “ab-initio” programs, whereby young candidates are chosen from scratch, with no prior experience, and are groomed from the ground-up, so to speak, in a tightly controlled regimen that puts them in the cockpit of a jetliner very quickly. These programs are ultra-competitive, drawing hundreds of applicants for each available slot.

Even more important, we need to draw a sharp divide between the major carriers and their regional affiliates. The major carriers, also referred to as “legacy” carriers, everyone is pretty familiar with — American, United, Delta, Southwest, JetBlue, et al. There is no pilot shortage at these companies, and unless something changes drastically they will continue to have a surplus of highly qualified candidates to choose from. They are able to cull from the top ranks of the regionals, as well as from the military and corporate aviation pools. Even amidst an ongoing wave of retirements, a steady supply of experienced crews is unlikely to be depleted.

At the regional airlines, it’s a different story. And by “regional” we are referring to the numerous subcontractors who operate smaller jets and turboprops on the majors’ behalf: those myriad “Connection” and “Express” companies, whose actual identities are usually concealed beneath the liveries of whichever major they are aligned with. United Express, Delta Connection, American Eagle, and so on. For civilian pilots, the typical career progression includes a substantial amount of tenure at this level before, assuming he or she is fortunate enough, progressing to a major. And it’s here where the problem is.

How it came to this is both a long and short story. The short story is that pay at the regionals is terrible and working conditions are harsh. This has driven thousands of pilots out of the industry, and/or has discouraged countless others from pursuing an aviation career in the first place. Becoming a licensed commercial pilot, to the point where one is eligible to apply for an airline job — any airline job — requires a huge amount of time and money. It can take years, and the average pilots sinks well over a hundred thousand dollars into his or her flight training and education. Salaries at the regionals, meanwhile, have traditionally started low as $20,000 a year, and have topped out at under six figures. Schedules are demanding and benefits paltry; the relationship between management and the workers is often hostile. On top of all that, the regional sector is highly unstable. These carriers always seem to be coming or going, shrinking or shedding planes, changing their names and realigning themselves with different majors.

But this is nothing new. Pay and working conditions at these companies have always been substandard. Yet filling jobs has seldom been a problem, so what gives? Well, what’s different is that the regional sector has grown so large. Today, regional jets account for an astonishing half — 53 percent was the last number I saw — of all domestic departures in the United States. As recently as twenty years ago it was somewhere around fifteen percent. In those days, pilots saw a job with a regional as a temporary inconvenience — paying one’s dues. It was a stepping stone toward a more lucrative position with a major. Pilots are now realizing that a job at a regional could easily mean an entire career at a regional. Thus, a diminishing number have been willing to commit the time and money to their education and training when the return on investment is somewhere between unpredictable and financially ruinous. An aspiring aviator has to ask, is it worth sinking $100,000 or more into one’s primary training, plus the time it will take to build the necessary number of flight hours, plus the cost of a college education, only to spend years toiling at poverty-level wages, with at best a marginal shot at moving on to a major? For many, the answer is no.

In the meantime, the FAA has enacted tougher hiring standards for entry-level pilots. Over the past two decades, as the regional sector grew and grew, thousands of new jobs were created. To fill these slots, airlines sharply lowered their experience and flight time minimums. Suddenly, pilots were being taken on with as little as 350 hours of total time, assigned to the first officer’s seat of sophisticated regional jets. Then came a rash of accidents, including the Colgan Air (Continental Connection) disaster outside Buffalo in 2009. Regulators began taking a closer look at hiring practices, eventually passing legislation mandating higher flight time totals and additional certification requirements for new-hires.

Some airlines blame the shortage at least partly on these tougher rules. Technically they’re right, but really all the new regulations have done is returning things to historical norms. My first job with a regional — “commuters” we called them in those days — was in 1990. Competitive applicants at the time had between 1,500 and 2,000 hours, and most of us had an FAA Airline Transport Pilot certificate as well. That’s more or less what the FAA requires today. The difference, of course, is that there are far more jobs to fill.

Things are beginning to change, if slowly. To their credit, many regionals have started upping their salaries and improving benefits. The cost structures of these carriers, whose existence is primarily to allow the majors to outsource flying on the cheap, limits how much they can lavish on their employees, but if they want to stay in the game, they frankly have little choice. New-hires at companies like Endeavor Air (a Delta affiliate) and PSA (American), for example, can now make first-year salaries in the $70,000-plus range. That’s around three times what these pilots would have been making in years past. Some companies are offering signing bonuses of several thousand dollars, and work rules too are getting better. Air Wisconsin, a United partner and one of the nation’s oldest regionals, says that new-hires can now earn up to $57,000 in sign-on bonuses. It promises earnings of between $260,000 and $317,000, including salary, bonuses, and what it calls “elected benefits,” over the first three years of employment. Numbers like that are unprecedented.

For those considering a piloting career, the situation is looking better. The problem for the industry, though, is the lag time. For a pilot just learning to fly, any cockpit job is still a long way off — probably years away. So while the mechanisms are falling into place to curtail a full-flown crisis, the shortage is going to be with us for a while.

N19906
07-21-2017, 12:49 PM
Well written.

patelam
07-21-2017, 08:51 PM
SkyWest pilots voted in a 5 year contract with an annual 1% salary increase just last week. You can't even give them money in the middle of this shortage!

sACKtis
07-24-2017, 03:04 PM
SkyWest pilots voted in a 5 year contract with an annual 1% salary increase just last week. You can't even give them money in the middle of this shortage!

Skywest "voting" LOL, bless that's cute

ForeverJunior
07-24-2017, 05:34 PM
Skywest "voting" LOL, bless that's cute

No kidding... :D

DashTrash
07-28-2017, 06:28 AM
SkyWest pilots voted in a 5 year contract with an annual 1% salary increase just last week. You can't even give them money in the middle of this shortage!
Did their Student Council ask nicely and say pretty please?

ForeverJunior
07-28-2017, 08:24 AM
7 cancellations for Alaska yesterday due to lack of pilot crew. 2 so far today (PDX-HNL, HNL-PDX).

QX was something like 34 yesterday; 26 so far today.

Wonder what Seafair weekend is going to be like?!

Mudhen200
07-28-2017, 12:03 PM
How in the world are we going to cover a couple lines of QX flying, as stated in the 2Q report, when we can't even cover our own lines?
What if the arbitrators don't award what ALPA asks? How many will leave? Possibly Hundreds?
What if Delta simply hired 100 Alaska F/O's per month for 3 or 4 months? They could fill their classroom needs with experienced people and virtually put us out of business in a matter of months. Win - win for them.
For the first time in my career here, I'm beginning to question the long term survival of the company.

ForeverJunior
07-28-2017, 01:33 PM
Delta should do what you're suggesting. Heck, they should have job fairs at our bases. Poach as many Alaska pilots as possible.

I would totally go to one. As is, I'm considering going to their job fair in ATL in October.

ShyGuy
07-28-2017, 09:25 PM
What if Delta simply hired 100 Alaska F/O's per month for 3 or 4 months? They could fill their classroom needs with experienced people and virtually put us out of business in a matter of months. Win - win for them.

It's wishful thinking at best and it just doesn't happen, for any legacy carrier doing it to a LCC/Major carrier.

RJs2majors
07-29-2017, 07:20 AM
Those able and willing will bail. Let's face it, majority of those who want to leave can't for one reason or another, usually due to lack of qualifications/being undesirables. Otherwise, who in their right mind would want to work here if they are young enough to leave for greener pastures? Alaska Airlines isn't the only game in the PNW/west.

Packrat
07-29-2017, 09:38 AM
Alaska Airlines isn't the only game in the PNW/west.

Your problem is the Anglers haven't figured that out yet. They're cashing in huge stock options and sleeping in their own beds every night.

ForeverJunior
07-31-2017, 09:03 AM
Interesting message from GT posted yesterday on the pilot web page.

GT gets it and he's the only true leader in management. He's definitely walking a tight rope and he's probably the only pilot advocate we have.

Anyway, the recent cancellations have now gotten management's attention. But, they are still in denial. They think this has to do with the JCBA process dragging out.

No, this has to do with years of no summer vacation, flex months, inability to trade or drop, bad trips, bad lines, and overall loss of QOL going forward. We are humans, not machines. We get tired. The trips are exhausting any more. We are all getting older and the crap flying takes its toll on our bodies.

It takes a full day to recover from 3 to 4-day trips.

Maybe it would be more appropriate for pilots to call in fatigued and I wish more pilots would opt to do this instead of calling in sick. That way, there would be real fatigue data and maybe, just maybe, things would start to improve. Yeah, I know I'm dreaming.

Anyway, I digress.

In short, I don't like the implication that the recent uptick in cancellations has to do with disenchantment among the pilot group. Most of us are tired, line holders and reserves alike... maybe even the pilots who pick up premium trips.

airb320
07-31-2017, 09:19 AM
Then don't put up with crap lines !
Have ALPA grow a pair, sit down with Management and talk about improvements... talking on message boards doesn't help against contrary belief !!!

DashTrash
07-31-2017, 09:44 AM
Then don't put up with crap lines !
Have ALPA grow a pair, sit down with Management and talk about improvements... talking on message boards doesn't help against contrary belief !!!
The problem is, your current ALPA reps are future manglement?

ImperialxRat
07-31-2017, 10:32 AM
They don't realize that Horizon's inability to attract new hires is a lower starting pay, flying old turbo props, and a longer path to get hired at Alaska.

In my new hire class the Horizon guys had been in the pool for almost 12 months before getting a class date, where-as I interviewed in September and got a class in November.

New hire pilots are better off going to Compass/insertregionalhere and flying a brand new RJ with a less than 2 year upgrade and then moving on to whatever major they want.

cmrflyer
07-31-2017, 10:08 PM
Everyone is better off somewhere else. Even allegiant.
Sad but true.

AKpilot
08-01-2017, 10:21 AM
Everyone is better off somewhere else. Even allegiant.
Sad but true.

Some people are always unhappy. I have flown with ex-frontier, allegiant, ati, Cargo carriers and many others. They are much happier at AS. We are in contract negotiations it's always a low point in employee harmony. It happens at all airlines. Put it on your Callender it's gonna happen next time too. The whiners and malcontents we had 20 years ago are still the same people. I have friends at the bigger airlines flying the same plane and they have it no better than me. The hourly rates are higher because of the contract cycles right now. Many have zero interest in flying wide body long haul stuff.

True, The management is behaving badly and ops are suffering right now. It will pass. The grass is not as green as you think it is on the other side of the fence. Everyone I fly with is pretty happy at AS. Yes we all want a raise and it will happen. If you are too old to leave...get over it. Don't drag others into your pit of misery. apc forums have a high percentage of trolls and malcontents.

GearBoy
08-01-2017, 01:09 PM
Interesting message from GT posted yesterday on the pilot web page.

GT gets it and he's the only true leader in management. He's definitely walking a tight rope and he's probably the only pilot advocate we have.

Anyway, the recent cancellations have now gotten management's attention. But, they are still in denial. They think this has to do with the JCBA process dragging out.

No, this has to do with years of no summer vacation, flex months, inability to trade or drop, bad trips, bad lines, and overall loss of QOL going forward. We are humans, not machines. We get tired. The trips are exhausting any more. We are all getting older and the crap flying takes its toll on our bodies.

It takes a full day to recover from 3 to 4-day trips.

Maybe it would be more appropriate for pilots to call in fatigued and I wish more pilots would opt to do this instead of calling in sick. That way, there would be real fatigue data and maybe, just maybe, things would start to improve. Yeah, I know I'm dreaming.

Anyway, I digress.

In short, I don't like the implication that the recent uptick in cancellations has to do with disenchantment among the pilot group. Most of us are tired, line holders and reserves alike... maybe even the pilots who pick up premium trips.

I hope you're right about your GT. However, If the past is any indication, there is no room for pilot advovates in AIr Group management. If he's a good guy, I fear he won't last. As CP, It's not their job to listen to him. It's his job to listen to them. If he's a pilot advocate, He may soon find himself returning to the line to "spend more time with his family." The list of former management pilot advocates is long and distinguished.

The other possibility is that he's already sold his sole to be where he is. Everyone has their price. Everyone. The good guy you remember may no longer exist. Ask the Jet-A-holes about their precious KF. Some stood by him 'til the bitter end. Now he's a pariah.

If GT and his deputies start taking hostages, you'll have your answer.

In either case, change will only happen from the top down. B&B and TK made him write your letter. Expect more of the same until Brad & Benito see things differently.

As always, Set your expectations low and you won't be disappointed. Hopefully, you'll be pleasntly surprised.

Good luck over there.
.

Packrat
08-01-2017, 03:13 PM
How many of the "Alaska Legends" on the 2nd floor wall actually got there for flying. Two? You have your answer.

Klsytakesit
08-01-2017, 10:39 PM
Some people are always unhappy. I have flown with ex-frontier, allegiant, ati, Cargo carriers and many others. They are much happier at AS. We are in contract negotiations it's always a low point in employee harmony. It happens at all airlines. Put it on your Callender it's gonna happen next time too. The whiners and malcontents we had 20 years ago are still the same people. I have friends at the bigger airlines flying the same plane and they have it no better than me. The hourly rates are higher because of the contract cycles right now. Many have zero interest in flying wide body long haul stuff.

True, The management is behaving badly and ops are suffering right now. It will pass. The grass is not as green as you think it is on the other side of the fence. Everyone I fly with is pretty happy at AS. Yes we all want a raise and it will happen. If you are too old to leave...get over it. Don't drag others into your pit of misery. apc forums have a high percentage of trolls and malcontents.
AK, you forgot to mention that those "friends" of yours were all FO's.
No chance that when you compare your TAFB and your W2 to a Legacy captain that you come anywhere near them. This year or any of the 18yrs I have worked for Alaska.....You must live in Gig Harbor or Anchorage... No one elae is that delusional

cmrflyer
08-02-2017, 06:19 PM
AK might need a drug test.

ForeverJunior
08-04-2017, 07:34 AM
Six Alaska cancellations so far this morning due to lack of pilot crews.

QX Part II

Justin Case
08-04-2017, 07:49 AM
Six Alaska cancellations so far this morning due to lack of pilot crews.

QX Part II

I think the "P" stands for pre-cancel. As in SEA ATC problems with north flow and smoke.

ForeverJunior
08-04-2017, 08:06 AM
"P" used to always say "pilot crew". I like how they are sugar-coating the problem.

ImperialxRat
08-19-2017, 08:30 AM
Junior Man calls went out in LAX yesterday for a trip today. Dunno if it led to cancellations or not though.