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View Full Version : Military "Training Failures"


Dread Pirate
06-30-2017, 08:10 AM
I know with Delta this has been a hot subject. I am filling out applications for multiple airlines and just trying to sort through all this to make sure I'm honest but not selling myself short. To caveat all this, I've never busted a Form 8 check ride. I've gone through multiple upgrades: MQT, FLUG, MCUG, IPUG, UIP, WIC, WIC IPUG. During WIC and IPUG I busted rides; at WIC, you'll pretty much bust every ride at least once, and probably a couple times depending on timeline. I don't have documentation anymore of which ones I "got to see again." What's the best way to answer the training failure question. These busts are for tactical execution (mostly BFM), and chalk debrief type things, not for being unable to fly an instrument approach or anything like that.

I've passed and done well in every upgrade I've been in, and probably have an average or slightly less busts in my life for a guy who is a WIC IP in my community. I feel like if I list every bust I've ever had it's going to look like a trend of training failures. In my community at least, busting these types of rides is the norm. Just looking for some advice.


navigatro
06-30-2017, 09:41 AM
It is only a check-ride failure if it is on a Form 8.

Keep it simple.

TwinTandem
06-30-2017, 10:23 AM
It is only a check-ride failure if it is on a Form 8.

Keep it simple.

I agree. If it doesn't generate a Form 8 it isn't a checkride. IMHO.


Spike from flyi
06-30-2017, 10:43 AM
If the FAA has a record of it, it's a bust; otherwise, if it doesn't say it on your DD214, it's none of their business.

TankerDriver
06-30-2017, 06:32 PM
If it's not in your FEF or recording with the FAA, it never happened.

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C130driver
06-30-2017, 08:05 PM
I thought Delta clarified their application to include UPT checkride failures? I agree, WIC training ride failures is a little ridiculous to ask for and I don't think airlines care about that..but at the same time, it would suck to be caught with your pants down.

DROCK
06-30-2017, 10:00 PM
I have a failure in primary flight training safe for solo check ride. Only annotation is INCOMPLETE in my log book. My training record from back then doesn't exist. Does this constitute a check ride failure?

Hrkdrivr
06-30-2017, 10:48 PM
This is a recurring question, take all the advice here with a grain of salt.

Send an email to the hiring department(s) and ask them. When I applied about 4 years ago, Delta said they wanted to know about all failures (UPT daily rides, UPT checks rides, etc) in the addendum, United said only Form 8 busts. I answered their questions accordingly. They never came up in the Delta interview, but I was ready to talk about them if they did. At Delta at least back then, my app wasn't automatically eliminated by answering "yes" to the question about training failures.

Be able to defend anything you put, or don't put, on your app.

Good luck.

Adlerdriver
07-01-2017, 06:39 AM
If it's not in your FEF or recording with the FAA, it never happened.
If you want to roll the bones, chances are this advice will work.

Asking the airline directly (if possible) is probably the best advice. Having to discuss a bust for tactical execution or maybe the brief :rolleyes: is pretty stupid at an airline interview - but it sounds like Delta wants that.

I disclosed my formation bust during UPT at my UAL interview and subsequent interviews. Sounds like current guidance is that UAL doesn't care.

The worst case scenario, however, is you end up across the table from another WIC graduate at an airline that does care. He knows it's practically impossible to get through that program without a bust. Better to play the game than being benched before you can get started.

Ewok
07-01-2017, 07:04 AM
The new format for the training failures on the Delta application has been answered on RST Delta Facebook group and the Delta Pilot recruiting Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/deltapilotrecruiting/

You should list all UPT check ride busts, not daily flights, but any progress or phase checks would be included. Any progress or phase checks in any phase of training should also be included. Listing these failures will not stop you from getting an interview, I had 2 busts in UPT and listed them. We talked about them for 1-2 minutes during the interview.

From my short time at Delta I can say they are pretty forgiving if you make a mistake, own up to the mistake, learn from it and help others to NOT make the same mistake. That is the theme they want to hear about training failures in the interview. If you don't list the failures they will probably be able to see them in the paperwork you turn in, they have seen it all before and they will ask about any omissions. You need to scrub all your paperwork and make sure you list everything that looks like a training failure.

Good luck, I know it's confusing but this website, TPN, RST, and FB have helped me navigate the process.

Hacker15e
07-01-2017, 03:27 PM
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by not being 100% up front with everything that could be vaguely construed as a training failure -- even if reporting it is overly conservative.

Let's remember that for the most part these self-reporting requests on airline applications are honesty/integrity checks. You're not ruining your chances of getting an interview call by reporting that UPT Midphase Check bust when there's no way the airline could have otherwise found out about it if you didn't tell them.

Here's a dose of reality: the major airlines have (and continue to) hire guys with massive black marks on their records: civil arrests and infractions, military discipline like Art 15s, Class A accidents where pilots were found at fault, multiple Q3s, pilots grounded by FEBs and FNAEBs, etc. Real, no-kidding black marks.

If you're still worried about if you should or shouldn't list that UPT checkride bust, realize that the guys who listed all of the above stuff on their applications were hired at legacy airlines during this hiring spree of the last few years. Your random mistakes (e.g. the training failures in question in this thread) are pretty small potatoes compared to those black marks. Think about it.

Remember, the airlines are looking at the big picture, theoretically at that "whole person" concept. A couple of mistakes over the course of a career are expected. Even the major trip-ups where someone made a legitimate error in judgment are opportunities to further one's airmanship or personally improve, and the airlines fully recognize this.

Again, they're looking for honesty in a candidate, and they're looking for someone who has learned from their mistakes and are better aviators as a result of it.

That being said, trying to cover something up, or omitting something because you think it will make you look worse as an interviewee, will absolutely NOT be looked upon well if it is discovered. And, often, perception is reality: even if you weren't trying to intentionally hide something, the appearance of that could be just as bad. The potential cost of this is just too large to not be completely forthright and overly conservative in what you list on the app.

bennet00
07-02-2017, 08:36 AM
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by not being 100% up front with everything that could be vaguely construed as a training failure -- even if reporting it is overly conservative.

Let's remember that for the most part these self-reporting requests on airline applications are honesty/integrity checks. You're not ruining your chances of getting an interview call by reporting that UPT Midphase Check bust when there's no way the airline could have otherwise found out about it if you didn't tell them.

Here's a dose of reality: the major airlines have (and continue to) hire guys with massive black marks on their records: civil arrests and infractions, military discipline like Art 15s, Class A accidents where pilots were found at fault, multiple Q3s, pilots grounded by FEBs and FNAEBs, etc. Real, no-kidding black marks.

If you're still worried about if you should or shouldn't list that UPT checkride bust, realize that the guys who listed all of the above stuff on their applications were hired at legacy airlines during this hiring spree of the last few years. Your random mistakes (e.g. the training failures in question in this thread) are pretty small potatoes compared to those black marks. Think about it.

Remember, the airlines are looking at the big picture, theoretically at that "whole person" concept. A couple of mistakes over the course of a career are expected. Even the major trip-ups where someone made a legitimate error in judgment are opportunities to further one's airmanship or personally improve, and the airlines fully recognize this.

Again, they're looking for honesty in a candidate, and they're looking for someone who has learned from their mistakes and are better aviators as a result of it.

That being said, trying to cover something up, or omitting something because you think it will make you look worse as an interviewee, will absolutely NOT be looked upon well if it is discovered. And, often, perception is reality: even if you weren't trying to intentionally hide something, the appearance of that could be just as bad. The potential cost of this is just too large to not be completely forthright and overly conservative in what you list on the app.

I think this advice is spot on. I have even heard of people being asked at interviews how they made it through training, and their subsequent flying career without a failure at some point. I have a TMAAT story ready to go just in case I get asked that question.

DWC CAP10 USAF
07-02-2017, 10:36 AM
Delta addendum specifically says "stage/phase checks" etc so I added my T-38 UPT contact check failure.

I asked UAL pilot hiring if they wanted those and their answer was no, only actual Form 8 / FAA checkride failures.

Good Luck!

galaxy flyer
07-03-2017, 06:09 AM
A legacy has hired someone with an FEB in their record? Wow, just WOW. I convened an FEB on a piling who was later terminated by a legacy, tho.

GF

Hacker15e
07-04-2017, 05:29 AM
A legacy has hired someone with an FEB in their record? Wow, just WOW. I convened an FEB on a piling who was later terminated by a legacy, tho.

Having known several of these guys I'm talking about, you might be surprised at some of the reasons and motivations that the AF has to convene FEBs. Don't forget that sometimes pilots are cleared by FEBs and go back to line flying, too.

The accusation isn't always the same as the finding.

That being said, these boards exist in the midst of other experience and accomplishments in a flying career. You have to assume that the rest of the resume/application of these folks was attractive enough to offset the stink of the FEB, regardless of the rationale or outcome.

beis77
07-16-2017, 06:49 PM
Delta addendum specifically says "stage/phase checks" etc so I added my T-38 UPT contact check failure.

I asked UAL pilot hiring if they wanted those and their answer was no, only actual Form 8 / FAA checkride failures.

Good Luck!

I listed mine as well (mid phase contact bust in T-37 eons ago). Your UPT record (summary) is in your flying history report that you print/copy from the HARM office (for USAF) so you should definitely report these, they will see them and based on the updated questions it sounds like they know where to look. Best to be honest about it; not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

PrimalPilot
07-17-2017, 05:38 AM
I was in the same boat as you. In my five airline applications, I listed all formal training busts: UPT, IFF, FTU, and WIC.

I was generic in the applications, but also ready to discuss details in the interview (although I sure as hell don't remember most of my many WIC busts). Interview invites to four airlines (i.e., did not seem to affect the calculus on getting an interview at any of these).

Vincent Chase
07-22-2017, 05:26 AM
I was in the same boat as you. In my five airline applications, I listed all formal training busts: UPT, IFF, FTU, and WIC.

I was generic in the applications, but also ready to discuss details in the interview (although I sure as hell don't remember most of my many WIC busts). Interview invites to four airlines (i.e., did not seem to affect the calculus on getting an interview at any of these).

If this horse isn't dead, I think Hacker and those following have it right. List what you can remember if it's a mid-phase or category. In WIC, you bust a daily ride? So what. Who hasn't?! I'd lump that in with busting a daily ride in UPT. Surely it happens. Delta probably doesn't care. If it was a cert ride, that's probably something to fess up to. Be sure to keep a story about what you learned from that bust handy in case they ask. I told about a story where I busted a ride and what I learned. I spun the story in a comedic fashion that was self-deprecating and the panel had a chuckle about it for like 2 minutes straight. That was 2 less minutes I was being grilled.:D

NMTXLine
07-22-2017, 07:44 AM
If this horse isn't dead, I think Hacker and those following have it right. List what you can remember if it's a mid-phase or category. In WIC, you bust a daily ride? So what. Who hasn't?! I'd lump that in with busting a daily ride in UPT. Surely it happens. Delta probably doesn't care. If it was a cert ride, that's probably something to fess up to. Be sure to keep a story about what you learned from that bust handy in case they ask. I told about a story where I busted a ride and what I learned. I spun the story in a comedic fashion that was self-deprecating and the panel had a chuckle about it for like 2 minutes straight. That was 2 less minutes I was being grilled.:D



Any chance you mind elaborating on the story and how you spun it to be funny? Some of us were unfortunately not gifted with a funny bone at birth....


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Vincent Chase
07-25-2017, 02:11 PM
Any chance you mind elaborating on the story and how you spun it to be funny? Some of us were unfortunately not gifted with a funny bone at birth....


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Got a beer and about 20-30 minutes?:D



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