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NEDude
07-05-2017, 01:28 AM
More places for you all to picket.


METO Guido
07-05-2017, 06:42 AM
https://s16.postimg.org/xk1ndv4zp/Smity.gif (https://postimg.org/image/eeye43qbl/)

Axe to grind, compensating for something or false flag ploy to steer the discussion. Hoping the later.

intrepidcv11
07-05-2017, 08:59 AM
Becoming increasingly clear you are bitter that no US Major called you.


NEDude
07-05-2017, 09:17 AM
Becoming increasingly clear you are bitter that no US Major called you.

Yes, living in Europe, I am very bitter about that...

Oh...and VX is a major.

Try again.

WHACKMASTER
07-05-2017, 08:41 PM
Becoming increasingly clear you are bitter that no US Major called you.

Bingo. Obviously bitter about something and now crossing into troll-dom. So transparent :rolleyes:

NEDude
07-06-2017, 01:29 AM
Bingo. Obviously bitter about something and now crossing into troll-dom. So transparent :rolleyes:

I have stated numerous times why I support Norwegian. Either you are deliberately ignorant or you are trying to create a false narrative to deflect from your own blatant hypocrisy for destroying the pay and working conditions of other airlines. So which is it, deliberate ignorance or an attempt to deflect from your hypocrisy?

WHACKMASTER
07-06-2017, 04:31 AM
Go troll somewhere else because this fish ain't biting. Others are obviously catching onto your trolling as well.

NEDude
07-06-2017, 07:30 AM
Go troll somewhere else because this fish ain't biting. Others are obviously catching onto your trolling as well.

Seems like you did bite...

Or are these multiple posts your version of "ain't biting"?

intrepidcv11
07-06-2017, 09:18 PM
Yes, living in Europe, I am very bitter about that...

Oh...and VX is a major.

Try again.

Oh my bad on the disrespect now that I see you added that you are a check airmen for a vibrant Euro LCC where many try to build a career. In New England terms let's just call you what you are, WICKED HARDO.

NEDude
07-06-2017, 10:12 PM
Oh my bad on the disrespect now that I see you added that you are a check airmen for a vibrant Euro LCC where many try to build a career. In New England terms let's just call you what you are, WICKED HARDO.

I know that it may be hard for you to comprehend, but not everyone has the desire to work for a U.S. major. I did work for a U.S. major airline, or have you missed that part too?

But it is clear by the fact that you all have resorted to personal attacks that you cannot argue the fact that ALPA has lied to you about Norwegian, and you have gotten all worked up about the false facts, and have no way to dispute them.

Here is a summary of ALPA claims:

Norwegian Air International has Thai based flight crews:False - All Thai based pilots are employed by Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS), the Norwegian AOC, not by NAI.

Norwegian Air International was set up in Ireland to allow Thai based flight crews to get around Norwegian labour laws: False - The Thai basing is done on the Norwegian AOC and in accordance with Norwegian labour law, NAI was not required to set up the Thai basing.

Norwegian Air International hires pilots through an agency based in Singapore: False - Norwegian hires pilots through either OSM, an agency based in Norway, or through Global Crew UK, an agency based in the UK.

Norwegian pays its pilots well under market value: False - Norwegian pays similarly or better than many other European LCCs and European charter companies. As an example, Norwegian pays wide body pilots significantly more than Eurowings (a Lufthansa alter-ego company...) which has U.S. DOT approval.

NAI specifically is using provisions of the EU-US Open Skies treaty to get around established labour laws: False - First of all NAI is not established using provisions of the EU-US Open Skies treaty, it is established using internal EU/EEA treaties, something which the U.S. has zero say over. Secondly NAI is certified in Ireland and in accordance with Irish labour laws. Ireland is an established EU country and is party to the Open Skies treaty. Therefore NAI is completely covered and legal under the Open Skies treaty, something even the U.S. authorities and the lead U.S. negotiator for the Open Skies treaty have agreed upon.

Lastly - I have stated it many times before, but it bears repeating: The more healthy and growing airlines, the better the job outlook is for pilots. The expansion of Norwegian has put upward overall pressure on salaries and working conditions around Europe. Their existence has caused an increase in my pay and working conditions, and they have done the same for the airline my wife works for. I want more jobs for pilots at healthy and growing airlines, not less. And that is why I am supportive of Norwegian.

Now, as none of you have come up with an argument against those points, I fully expect more attempts at personal attacks. But you will just be proving my point.

METO Guido
07-07-2017, 04:27 AM
Now, as none of you have come up with an argument against those points, I fully expect more attempts at personal attacks. But you will just be proving my point.


There. Straight off your own keystrokes. Work on it.

NEDude
07-07-2017, 04:55 AM
There. Straight off your own keystrokes. Work on it.

The only thing I have done was called out a guy on his blatant hipocrasy.

METO Guido
07-07-2017, 07:03 AM
The only thing I have done was called out a guy on his blatant hipocrasy.
Got nothing to do with that. It's about WHAT you are looking for and WHERE you are looking for it.

Just another day under witness protection for me. Of course, I weigh 400 pounds and reply to this crap from my bed.

NEDude
07-07-2017, 12:38 PM
Got nothing to do with that. It's about WHAT you are looking for and WHERE you are looking for it.

Just another day under witness protection for me. Of course, I weigh 400 pounds and reply to this crap from my bed.

Just looking for something I know I am not going to get: an admission that ALPA has misled its membership and that the anti-Norwegian rhetoric is simply an attempt by ALPA to drum up PAC donations and rally the troops. After ALPA won the union vote at VX, there were no other major airlines of noteable size that had no union representation. The big airlines were reaping in record profits and contracts were improving across the board. The FAA instituted new rest and duty requirements that were beneficial to pilots, and increased the requirements for airline pilots. ALPA had no big fish to fry and needed a boogeyman. Norwegian was simply a convenient enemy. ALPA could put out a scary sounding video, full of wrong information, and sit back and watch the donations pour in. I will admit, it was a smart strategy because clearly so many folks on here have bought the snake oil sales pitch. Everyone is still anti-Norwegian, but none of you know why other than ALPA says so in their video. I know I will never get an admission of that, but I will continue to call it out.

Sniper66
07-07-2017, 05:26 PM
More places for you all to picket.




Can't get a job with the Majors?
Mesa is hiring street captains, go back there they have a new TA

B757
07-07-2017, 05:47 PM
Just looking for something I know I am not going to get: an admission that ALPA has misled its membership and that the anti-Norwegian rhetoric is simply an attempt by ALPA to drum up PAC donations and rally the troops. After ALPA won the union vote at VX, there were no other major airlines of noteable size that had no union representation. The big airlines were reaping in record profits and contracts were improving across the board. The FAA instituted new rest and duty requirements that were beneficial to pilots, and increased the requirements for airline pilots. ALPA had no big fish to fry and needed a boogeyman. Norwegian was simply a convenient enemy. ALPA could put out a scary sounding video, full of wrong information, and sit back and watch the donations pour in. I will admit, it was a smart strategy because clearly so many folks on here have bought the snake oil sales pitch. Everyone is still anti-Norwegian, but none of you know why other than ALPA says so in their video. I know I will never get an admission of that, but I will continue to call it out...Agreed 100%..Have worked on 3 different continents , so I´ve seen the facts..Unfortunately many our US colleaques have not, and still believe the union misinformation..

Fly safe,
B757

NEDude
07-08-2017, 12:19 AM
Can't get a job with the Majors?
Mesa is hiring street captains, go back there they have a new TA

And yet another person with limited comprehension...

So, let's make this very simple so perhaps you might be able to comprehend: I do not live in the United States. I do not wish to move back to the United States. When I did live in the United States, I DID work for a major airline. So please, try again if you are going to attempt an insult, because you really have just insulted yourself. Unless of course you are proud of the fact that you struggle to obtain 2nd grade level reading comprehension.

Jetpowered
07-08-2017, 01:44 AM
Just looking for something I know I am not going to get: an admission that ALPA has misled its membership and that the anti-Norwegian rhetoric is simply an attempt by ALPA to drum up PAC donations and rally the troops. After ALPA won the union vote at VX, there were no other major airlines of noteable size that had no union representation. The big airlines were reaping in record profits and contracts were improving across the board. The FAA instituted new rest and duty requirements that were beneficial to pilots, and increased the requirements for airline pilots. ALPA had no big fish to fry and needed a boogeyman. Norwegian was simply a convenient enemy. ALPA could put out a scary sounding video, full of wrong information, and sit back and watch the donations pour in. I will admit, it was a smart strategy because clearly so many folks on here have bought the snake oil sales pitch. Everyone is still anti-Norwegian, but none of you know why other than ALPA says so in their video. I know I will never get an admission of that, but I will continue to call it out.

I'll say it...NEDude, you're 100% right.

Typhoonpilot
07-08-2017, 04:58 AM
Norwegian's bad; Norwegian must be stopped; The ME3 are bad; the ME3 must be stopped.

Okay now that we have you distracted with a massive campaign against foreign entities that you have no control over, let's go ahead and ink some deals with our alliance partners so that all future international growth will go to them :cool:


07 July, 2017
| SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
| BY: Mavis Toh
| Singapore


China Eastern Airlines will base 150 to 200 aircraft at the upcoming Beijing Daxing airport, as it attempts to get a slice of the lucrative market out of China's capital.

The SkyTeam carrier says it will connect to the US, Europe, Australia, Southeast Asia, and North Asia from the airport, bringing new connectivity to its existing network.

China Eastern is investing CNY13.2 billion ($1.94 billion) in the new airport, with construction of its base already underway.

It will be an anchor operator of the facility, alongside China Southern Airlines (yet another SkyTeam carrier). The carrier is targeting a 40% share of the new airport's traffic, which would amount to more than 30 million passengers.

FlightGlobal schedules data shows that Shanghai-based China Eastern does not have any direct long-haul services out of Beijing. Its direct services from the city are largely domestic, but it also connects to destinations in Japan and Vietnam, as well as to Saipan and Denpasar.

Daxing airport is targeted to start operations in 2019, and will have the capacity to handle 72 million passengers by 2025.

Star Alliance carrier Air China and its subsidiaries will remains at the existing Beijing Capital International airport.

METO Guido
07-08-2017, 05:44 AM
I'll say it...NEDude, you're 100% right.

:DCamp out here long enough, one becomes well acquainted with B cluster, narcissistic personality episodes of all varieties. But every good story requires its antagonist. If Dude's foil narrative draws attention to the visa slight of hand NAI is using to hire any pilot from anywhere to staff any cockpit from anywhere, he's earned his keep IMHO.

METO Guido
07-08-2017, 06:10 AM
Okay now that we have you distracted with a massive campaign against foreign entities that you have no control over, let's go ahead and ink some deals with our alliance partners so that all future international growth will go to them :cool:

No one's distracted. Numerous threats on numerous fronts. You guys are giving ALPA way too much credit.

I say there Typhoon, 'Ow much time in 'Urry's?

https://youtu.be/Z9Ak1w4DwV8

Typhoonpilot
07-08-2017, 03:04 PM
No one's distracted. Numerous threats on numerous fronts. You guys are giving ALPA way too much credit.

I say there Typhoon, 'Ow much time in 'Urry's?

https://youtu.be/Z9Ak1w4DwV8

I said that in relation to airline management getting ALPA to chase it's tail while they go off and codeshare away all future international growth. Even the membership seems oblivious. When DAL was pulling out of BKK I mentioned it to a couple of crews I ran across and they were not even aware.

captjns
07-08-2017, 05:50 PM
With all the outsourcing in the name of codesharing with foreign carriers to and from Euroland, Asia, and S.A., U.S. carriers will become the largest regional operators in the world. But what the heck... ALPA and it's membership will be OK with UAL, DAL, and AA will being feeders for the Oneworld, Skyteam, and Star Alliance carriers.

appleadam
07-09-2017, 12:58 PM
With all the outsourcing in the name of codesharing with foreign carriers to and from Euroland, Asia, and S.A., U.S. carriers will become the largest regional operators in the world. But what the heck... ALPA and it's membership will be OK with UAL, DAL, and AA will being feeders for the Oneworld, Skyteam, and Star Alliance carriers.

All the more reason for Yankee pilots to join the likes of NIA?!?

Sniper66
07-09-2017, 03:37 PM
And yet another person with limited comprehension...

So, let's make this very simple so perhaps you might be able to comprehend: I do not live in the United States. I do not wish to move back to the United States. When I did live in the United States, I DID work for a major airline. So please, try again if you are going to attempt an insult, because you really have just insulted yourself. Unless of course you are proud of the fact that you struggle to obtain 2nd grade level reading comprehension.




Which Major did you work for?
You said in the past if I can recall you worked for Mesa,


PS I am Brazilian

NEDude
07-10-2017, 03:26 AM
Which Major did you work for?
You said in the past if I can recall you worked for Mesa,


PS I am Brazilian

Virgin America.

Also should be noted that prior to VX, I was at Compass when it was wholly owned by NWA/DAL. I was covered under the flow through agreement. If a legacy US airline was my ultimate goal, I certainly had it waiting for me. But as I wanted to be on the east side of the Atlantic, Delta was not all that tempting in the long run.

METO Guido
07-10-2017, 05:34 AM
As does any representative body, ALPA salutes many masters. More than a few of those bearing widely divergent agendas. Then consider getting results in a time where the scale for legislative progress is measured in microns. By comparison to other lobbies, how is ALPA-PAC respected financially? No idea but it's a safe bet they aren't knocking on doors packing the fattest wallet.

Welcome fellas & call me Buddy. VA lawmaker, servant of the people. Also something of a pragmatist you might say, so not especially put off by earmarks, insider whispering, larger than token campaign contributions, single issue voter blocks, defense contractors or multinational spenders. So Flags of Convenience Don't Fly Here just passed committee you say? Well done. 100% behind our pilots, I can tell you that. So what if the presumptuous cry babies making more than me working 12 days a month get all high-horsey from time to time? Hell, I'm almost jealous. But please, hearing aid's up full volume, sell me on H.R.2150-115.

https://congress.gov/115/bills/hr2150/BILLS-115hr2150ih.pdf

NEDude
07-10-2017, 09:38 AM
As does any representative body, ALPA salutes many masters. More than a few of those bearing widely divergent agendas. Then consider getting results in a time where the scale for legislative progress is measured in microns. By comparison to other lobbies, how is ALPA-PAC respected financially? No idea but it's a safe bet they aren't knocking on doors packing the fattest wallet.

Welcome fellas & call me Buddy. VA lawmaker, servant of the people. Also something of a pragmatist you might say, so not especially put off by earmarks, insider whispering, larger than token campaign contributions, single issue voter blocks, defense contractors or multinational spenders. So Flags of Convenience Don't Fly Here just passed committee you say? Well done. 100% behind our pilots, I can tell you that. So what if the presumptuous cry babies making more than me working 12 days a month get all high-horsey from time to time? Hell, I'm almost jealous. But please, hearing aid's up full volume, sell me on H.R.2150-115.

https://congress.gov/115/bills/hr2150/BILLS-115hr2150ih.pdf

The last provision:
‘‘(21) ‘flag of convenience carrier’ means a foreign air carrier that is established in a country other than the home country of its majority owner or owners in order to avoid regulations of the home country."

That will be a tall order to prove in many cases, especially when it comes to EU/EEA carriers certified by EASA. Again, arguing that NAI was established for the purpose of getting around Norwegian regulations is just plain silly. Norway is bound by EU labour laws because of its membership in the EEA and access to the European open market, and Norway is an EASA member state. Establishing in Ireland does not allow NAI to circumvent EU labour laws nor circumvent EASA regulations. It does, however, give significant tax advantages, and that is not prohibited by this proposed bill.

METO Guido
07-10-2017, 10:41 AM
The last provision:
...in order to avoid regulations of the home country.[/I][/B]"

Again, arguing that NAI was established for the purpose of getting around Norwegian regulations is just plain silly.

It does, however, give significant tax advantages, and that is not prohibited by this proposed bill.

Taxes are regulatory & enforceable code interpretations appear under CFR as do FARs. However Dude, seems we may have stumbled on a patch of common ground. The Bill language reads pretty ambiguous I agree. Overly discretionary as well. Of course, might as well be titled Spruce Goose Act for all the chance it's got climbing out of congressional ground effect.

NEDude
07-11-2017, 04:36 AM
Taxes are regulatory & enforceable code interpretations appear under CFR as do FARs. However Dude, seems we may have stumbled on a patch of common ground. The Bill language reads pretty ambiguous I agree. Overly discretionary as well. Of course, might as well be titled Spruce Goose Act for all the chance it's got climbing out of congressional ground effect.

It is ambiguous. However it states that the bill is aimed towards labour standards and specifically references article 17 bis of the Open Skies Treaty. Arguing that tax regulations are intended to be covered under the bill would be a large stretch.

METO Guido
07-11-2017, 10:41 AM
However it states that the bill is aimed towards labour standards and specifically references article 17 bis of the Open Skies Treaty.

Yet clearly includes…"other purposes." Article 17 bis speaks to "social effects" of the agreement in addition to protecting labour standards, rights & principles. One of those social effects, it could be argued, gaining unfair competitive opportunity though taxable income sheltering as do US tech giants now calling Ireland home.

Doesn't matter, this thing never flies.

Grumble
07-11-2017, 06:03 PM
NAI is doing nothing but putting downward pressure on pay and work rules... get out from under Bjorn's desk.

Typhoonpilot
07-11-2017, 06:53 PM
NAI is doing nothing but putting downward pressure on pay and work rules... get out from under Bjorn's desk.


But wait, Avianca 787 Captains makes less money than Norwegian's do. Pretty much all South and Central American airlines pay much less than Norwegian and have for decades. Why is this not an ALPA call to action?

Sniper66
07-11-2017, 08:31 PM
But wait, Avianca 787 Captains makes less money than Norwegian's do. Pretty much all South and Central American airlines pay much less than Norwegian and have for decades. Why is this not an ALPA call to action?



Avianca 787 captain pay is 14 k per month and that's indeed low for 787 pay , just as it is low the Emirates Captain pay that you bragged about all these years.
So
Don't just shoot **** out of your mouth, I have friends there at Bogota and I know exactly what they make and they know themselves how low their pay is too.

ALPA did not send you to Dubai, your Messed up Usair management did, so stop bashing our union and our fight against foreign Airlines that are after our jobs.

NEDude
07-11-2017, 09:22 PM
Avianca 787 captain pay is 14 k per month and that's indeed low for 787 pay , just as it is low the Emirates Captain pay that you bragged about all these years.
So
Don't just shoot **** out of your mouth, I have friends there at Bogota and I know exactly what they make and they know themselves how low their pay is too.

ALPA did not send you to Dubai, your Messed up Usair management did, so stop bashing our union and our fight against foreign Airlines that are after our jobs.

So it is your assertion that U.S. airlines and pilots have an inherent right to all international flying? How is Emirates after "your jobs"? How is Norwegian after "your jobs". How is Eurowings, which pays its widebody captains $7,650 per month, after "your jobs"? How are any of them after "your jobs" any more than the pilots at Spirit are after the jobs of the pilots at Delta, or the pilots at Southwest are after the jobs of the pilots at United?

NEDude
07-11-2017, 09:54 PM
NAI is doing nothing but putting downward pressure on pay and work rules... get out from under Bjorn's desk.

No it is not. First of all it has put upward pressure on pay and work rules in Europe. I have witnessed that effect first hand.

Secondly, the argument that a European airline could put downward pressure on work rules is silly and demonstrates total ignorance over European laws, which guarantee employees far greater rights than any US employee could hope for. Did you know pilots in Europe are guaranteed, by law, to get a minimum of four weeks of vacation annually? How long does it take to earn that at Delta? Did you know that most European airlines do not have a reserve system, where a US pilot can spend years on reserve? Are you aware that all European pilots are guaranteed to receive paid maternity leave and most get paid paternity leave? Are you aware that most pilots are required, by law, to have a pension plan funded by their company? For example the pilots at Norwegian's new CDG crew base are getting a 20% company contribution into their government guaranteed pension plan because it is required by law. Are you aware that most European airlines, including Norwegian, have a variety of work plans available, such as full time, 75% or 50%? I know several pilots who work month on, month off, and use their month off to do contract work, or instruction, or go into half retirement and live off their pension for their off month.

The work rules in Europe are FAR better than anything you get in the United States, even with the LCCs.

METO Guido
07-12-2017, 12:01 PM
NAI is doing nothing but putting downward pressure on pay and work rules... get out from under Bjorn's desk.
Bjorn? NAI to ORD right under Council 12's nose. Nordic billionaire, comedian.

Spin
07-12-2017, 02:51 PM
NEDude,
Tell all that to ryanair contract pilots

Typhoonpilot
07-12-2017, 07:51 PM
Avianca 787 captain pay is 14 k per month and that's indeed low for 787 pay , just as it is low the Emirates Captain pay that you bragged about all these years.
So
Don't just shoot **** out of your mouth, I have friends there at Bogota and I know exactly what they make and they know themselves how low their pay is too.

ALPA did not send you to Dubai, your Messed up Usair management did, so stop bashing our union and our fight against foreign Airlines that are after our jobs.



I flew at Avianca on the 787. I know exactly what the 25 year seniority Avianca captains and the 3 year seniority F.O.s make in salary :)

First hand knowledge trumps "friends". Nice try though ;)

NEDude
07-12-2017, 07:56 PM
NAI will not be serving ORD. NAS will be doing that route. Even if the so-called "flag of convenience" legislation is passed, and ALPA gets everything it wants, you will still see Norwegian 787s in ORD. There is absolutely nothing about NAS that ALPA can oppose.

NEDude
07-12-2017, 08:11 PM
NEDude,
Tell all that to ryanair contract pilots

There certainly some aspects of Ryanair that are not appealing. Still, the Ryanair guys I have met are appalled at the prospect of only 2 weeks of vacation, or the potential of years on reserve, or getting junior assigned on off days.

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 05:14 AM
NAI will not be serving ORD. NAS will be doing that route.

Whatever, this is who you work for correct…on a waiver for 2 years? In Bond movies they call it SPECTRE:

OSM Aviation AS is a Norwegian company offering services to airlines, including crew management, recruitment and employment, training and development together with planning and execution. OSM Aviation is owned by OSM Group and 50% by Norwegian Air Shuttle subsidiary Norwegian Air Resources Holding (NARH).[1] The company is the main provider of crews for Norwegian's long-haul operations, which has led to conflicts between both OSM and Norwegian and their employees.

NEDude
07-13-2017, 06:11 AM
Whatever, this is who you work for correct…on a waiver for 2 years? In Bond movies they call it SPECTRE:

OSM Aviation AS is a Norwegian company offering services to airlines, including crew management, recruitment and employment, training and development together with planning and execution. OSM Aviation is owned by OSM Group and 50% by Norwegian Air Shuttle subsidiary Norwegian Air Resources Holding (NARH).[1] The company is the main provider of crews for Norwegian's long-haul operations, which has led to conflicts between both OSM and Norwegian and their employees.

But wait, I thought they used an agency in Singapore. That is what ALPA tells you...

You cannot get mad or oppose NAS. They are a Norwegian company, using a Norwegian AOC, and using a Norwegian agency. There is not one thing about NAS that is "flag of convenience", and that is the basis is the ALPA opposition.

And no, I do not work for them. I am a dual EU/US citizen with an EASA license and working for WOW Air out of KEF.

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 06:38 AM
But wait, I thought they used an agency in Singapore. That is what ALPA tells you...

You cannot get mad or oppose NAS. They are a Norwegian company, using a Norwegian AOC, and using a Norwegian agency. There is not one thing about NAS that is "flag of convenience", and that is the basis is the ALPA opposition.

And no, I do not work for them. I am a dual EU/US citizen with an EASA license and working for WOW Air out of KEF.

Not about YOU for Pete's sake. "You" as in anyone choosing to work for whoever "they" are masquerading to be. "I" read on occasion what ALPA puts out. "I" may or may not agree with any one of countless positions "it" takes. Could come as a shock to YOU but…opposing OSM is not exclusive to ALPA or its leadership.

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 07:53 AM
In case "anyone" hasn't seen it, linked below is their current Indeed, ad placement. Does the old boy in Euro style silver braid look like you? Will your waiver hold when he no longer particularly cares for how you squawk your bird, answer ATC, part your hair?

https://osmaviation.com/job/captains-b737-max-us-operations/

NEDude
07-13-2017, 09:31 AM
Not about YOU for Pete's sake. "You" as in anyone choosing to work for whoever "they" are masquerading to be. "I" read on occasion what ALPA puts out. "I" may or may not agree with any one of countless positions "it" takes. Could come as a shock to YOU but…opposing OSM is not exclusive to ALPA or its leadership.

I am not sure if you are aware of this or not, but written internet posts do not have the ability to convey voice intonations or physical gestures that would make it more obvious whether the word "you" is meant towards a specific person or to a group at large. When you quote my post, and use the word "you" in the response, it is entirely reasonable to believe the "you" was meant to me specifically and not to a larger group in general.

BTW, where has ALPA opposed OSM? I have seen ALPA making a lot of noise about NAI, but none about OSM. Can you provide some documentation or a link where they are opposing OSM? I'd love to see what their argument is.

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 10:23 AM
You cannot get mad or oppose NAS.

YOU know you'd look totally cool in that cap, last word Lars. You, you…EASA, dual citizen, TRI, Viking Vindicator.

intrepidcv11
07-13-2017, 11:52 AM
"Light years behind expectations"

UPDATE 3-Norwegian Air second-quarter earnings slump hits shares | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/norweg-air-shut-results-idUSL8N1K40HZ)

NEDude
07-13-2017, 11:54 AM
YOU know you'd look totally cool in that cap, last word Lars. You, you…EASA, dual citizen, TRI, Viking Vindicator.

So where is the evidence ALPA is opposing OSM? I am serious, I really would like to see it.

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 12:15 PM
So where is the evidence ALPA is opposing OSM? I am serious, I really would like to see it.
SWF and PVD are 737s for Norwegian Air International. The FLL base will be 787s for Norwegian Air Shuttle.

Take a look at the ad above. Who is OSM (SPECTRE) recruiting for?

METO Guido
07-13-2017, 01:16 PM
Finally gone to bed? "Mom, pour me a gin & tonic will ya? On the way up from the basement:)"

lgaflyer
07-13-2017, 01:27 PM
YOU know you'd look totally cool in that cap, last word Lars. You, you…EASA, dual citizen, TRI, Viking Vindicator.

What's wrong with METO and Whackmaster and the like!? NEDude is simply engaging in smart and well-thought out discussion about NAI/NAS, and they are engaging in personal attacks or spread ALPA's non-evidence driven propaganda! Did the high school you guys went to not teach you how to form a proper argument?

T28driver
07-13-2017, 04:02 PM
Gents-

This thread is fascinating and incredible on so many levels. The main one of which is that I still can't figure out NEDguys main source of anger. I THINK it's about ALPA, but I'm not completely sure because he keeps gloating about NAI/NAS being able to operate in the US with impunity and there being nothing that can happen to stop that.

NAS/NAI/WOW/Etc. worry me for one very specific reason: this has happened before in commercial shipping.

I went to a maritime academy, still hold an unlimited tonnage license, and worked in the US Merchant Fleet. That fleet is a hugely diminished shadow of its former glory. The same can be said for most countries not named "Panama" or "Liberia." The main flags of convenience. What does that look like in real numbers?

https://www.economist.com/news/economic-and-financial-indicators/21674507-merchant-fleets

Greece and Japan own the most ships, but only a fraction of those are actually flagged in their home countries or crewed by their own sailors. When I see an airline with ownership in Norway operating flights between the US and Ireland (or wherever) with contract crews it makes me think of Greek Owned, Liberian Flagged, Ukrainian and Filipino crewed ships hauling cargo around the ocean. Cruise ships are the same. You will not find a single US flagged cruise ship outside of Hawaii.

So, NEDbruh, I'm not upset at Norwegian. I'm upset at the system that allows this to happen. I'm also scared that what happened to the US merchant fleet (and many others) will happen to the major airlines. I don't want to wake up and discover that my only options for employment are domestic flying because all of the international flying is handled by airlines technically run out of the Bahamas and crewed by nationals willing to work 11 month contracts for 1/10th of what a regional FO makes.

I'm a little taken aback by the fact that pilots don't seem to know very much about the shipping world. There's plenty of info out there. For example:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/longreads.com/2013/08/26/like-being-in-prison-with-a-salary-the-secret-world/amp/

A few high points:

"Only 1 percent of trade at U.S. ports travels on an American-flagged ship, and the U.S. fleet has declined by 82 percent since 1951."

"The benefits of flagging out vary according to registry, but there will always be lower taxes, more lenient labor laws, no requirement to pay expensive American or British crews who are protected by unions and legislation. Now the citizens of rich countries own ships—Greece has the most, then Japan and Germany—but they are sailed by the cheap labor of Filipinos, Bangladeshis, Chinese, Indonesians. They are the ones who clean your cruise cabin and work in the engine room, who bring your gas, your soybeans, your perfumes and medicine."

That's the future we should be worried about.

Jaded N Cynical
07-13-2017, 06:26 PM
Gents-

This thread is fascinating and incredible on so many levels. The main one of which is that I still can't figure out NEDguys main source of anger. I THINK it's about ALPA, but I'm not completely sure because he keeps gloating about NAI/NAS being able to operate in the US with impunity and there being nothing that can happen to stop that.

NAS/NAI/WOW/Etc. worry me for one very specific reason: this has happened before in commercial shipping.

I went to a maritime academy, still hold an unlimited tonnage license, and worked in the US Merchant Fleet. That fleet is a hugely diminished shadow of its former glory. The same can be said for most countries not named "Panama" or "Liberia." The main flags of convenience. What does that look like in real numbers?

https://www.economist.com/news/economic-and-financial-indicators/21674507-merchant-fleets

Greece and Japan own the most ships, but only a fraction of those are actually flagged in their home countries or crewed by their own sailors. When I see an airline with ownership in Norway operating flights between the US and Ireland (or wherever) with contract crews it makes me think of Greek Owned, Liberian Flagged, Ukrainian and Filipino crewed ships hauling cargo around the ocean. Cruise ships are the same. You will not find a single US flagged cruise ship outside of Hawaii.

So, NEDbruh, I'm not upset at Norwegian. I'm upset at the system that allows this to happen. I'm also scared that what happened to the US merchant fleet (and many others) will happen to the major airlines. I don't want to wake up and discover that my only options for employment are domestic flying because all of the international flying is handled by airlines technically run out of the Bahamas and crewed by nationals willing to work 11 month contracts for 1/10th of what a regional FO makes.

I'm a little taken aback by the fact that pilots don't seem to know very much about the shipping world. There's plenty of info out there. For example:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/longreads.com/2013/08/26/like-being-in-prison-with-a-salary-the-secret-world/amp/

A few high points:

"Only 1 percent of trade at U.S. ports travels on an American-flagged ship, and the U.S. fleet has declined by 82 percent since 1951."

"The benefits of flagging out vary according to registry, but there will always be lower taxes, more lenient labor laws, no requirement to pay expensive American or British crews who are protected by unions and legislation. Now the citizens of rich countries own ships—Greece has the most, then Japan and Germany—but they are sailed by the cheap labor of Filipinos, Bangladeshis, Chinese, Indonesians. They are the ones who clean your cruise cabin and work in the engine room, who bring your gas, your soybeans, your perfumes and medicine."

That's the future we should be worried about.

^^^^^^^^^
This man gets it. The CEO of Norwegian, Bjorn Kjos is a Maritime Law Attorney. Coincidence? Flag of convenience model anyone?

NEDude
07-13-2017, 08:33 PM
Finally gone to bed? "Mom, pour me a gin & tonic will ya? On the way up from the basement:)"


Yes, I did go to bed. It is called time zones, and the ones in Europe are ahead of the ones in the States.

Denti
07-14-2017, 07:34 AM
So far NAI and NAS are playing by the rules. Norway is not part of the EU, but it is a paying member of the single european market (with absolutely no say about its rules). And NAI/NAS exploit the rules of that market, same as many other airlines in europe do, even Scandinavian does it with their extremely low C scale for new joiners in the last few years and their planned AOC in ireland. A well respected member of the star alliance and a partner of United.

Can any airline in europe get an AOC in ireland, rumania, latvia or austria without even flying from there? Of course, it is a single market in most of europe, all of which are covered by the open sky agreement between the EU and the US, which, by the way is not reciprocal anyway, as it allows US airlines intra-EU flying, whereas intra-US flying is not possible for european carriers. I believe UPS makes quite heavy use of that.

With the current open agreement there is no way to stop something like NAS operting into the US, or for that matter all the other carriers in the EU. One way out of that would be to cancel the open sky agreement, but that would probably harm the major carriers on both sid of the pond more than NAS/NAI. Is Ireland (and Austria) the Liberia of europe? In a way yes, they are. But as long as the EU stands by and let that happen, it wont change. There might be some change going on though, as the Apple tax case shows.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 03:38 PM
I'm also scared that what happened to the US merchant fleet (and many others) will happen to the major airlines. I don't want to wake up and discover that my only options for employment are domestic flying because all of the international flying is handled by airlines technically run out of the Bahamas and crewed by nationals willing to work 11 month contracts for 1/10th of what a regional FO makes........

That's the future we should be worried about.
I'm not scoffing at your concern, but I think you're mixing apples and oranges a bit.

Producing a qualified airline pilot isn't quite as easy as crewing a merchant vessel or finding enough bodies willing to serve drinks and clean rooms on a cruise ship.

Future airline pilots entering via the civilian path have some willingness to incur debt, accept temporary low wages and low QOL with the understanding that many will move on to top scale jobs. If that incentive is no longer there, they would have no reason to even start. If the best they can do is 1/10th of regional FO pay, any reasonably intelligent, college-educated person is going to pass. So, now that airline is committed to crewing their flights from the plentiful labor pools you mentioned.

To incur debt and/or pay for initial licenses and ratings, you have to have some money. The target candidates from Indonesia, Ukraine, the Philippines, etc. do not. That's the whole reason your premise of cheap labor is even slightly valid in the first place. So, grabbing available bodies from those locations who are going to crew the international flagships of major world airlines is going to mean putting those folks into ab-initio programs. Today's ab-initio courses are rigorous, highly competitive, multi-year programs that currently require above average candidates put through a number of filters to even begin. Those types of people aren't usually willing to sell themselves short, no matter where they're from. That's hardly the equivalent of cruise liner manual labor or a journeyman on a merchant vessel receiving some initial training and setting sail, decades (if at all) away from ever having command.

If anyone wants to see the potential consequences of grabbing available bodies from villages full of poor but willing pilot candidates, talk to any western pilot in command of a Chinese airliner.

While start up flag-of-convenience airlines might be willing to risk their reputation with such a plan, the idea that Lufthansa, Air France, BA, AA, Delta, et al would work towards using a crew force made up of cheap, minimally qualified pilots is not something that keeps me up at night. The stakes are far too high, IMO.

T28driver
07-14-2017, 04:27 PM
I'm not scoffing at your concern, but I think you're mixing apples and oranges a bit.

Producing a qualified airline pilot isn't quite as easy as crewing a merchant vessel or finding enough bodies willing to serve drinks and clean rooms on a cruise ship.

Future airline pilots entering via the civilian path have some willingness to incur debt, accept temporary low wages and low QOL with the understanding that many will move on to top scale jobs. If that incentive is no longer there, they would have no reason to even start. If the best they can do is 1/10th of regional FO pay, any reasonably intelligent, college-educated person is going to pass. So, now that airline is committed to crewing their flights from the plentiful labor pools you mentioned.

To incur debt and/or pay for initial licenses and ratings, you have to have some money. The target candidates from Indonesia, Ukraine, the Philippines, etc. do not. That's the whole reason your premise of cheap labor is even slightly valid in the first place.

I disagree. It takes a minimum of 4 years to make a merchant officer. With regard to the wages, 1/10 is probably hyperbole. However I can offer this example:

As a 3rd officer on a US flag vessel in 2008, I made about $16,500 per month that I was at sea. A Filipino 3rd mate makes an average of $2,500 per month, or 15%.

US sailors are less less than 2% of the 1.5 million mariners employed worldwide. Filipinos are over 25% (more than 35% by some estimates). There is a direct correlation.

As far as the cost of training, if you were a company offered the option of hiring a a trained candidate from the US, Great Britain, Etc. at an average career earning cost of $4-7 million OR paying $500k to train a pilot that will cost you $750k-1,000,000 in total career salary (20 year timeframe for both examples), which one are you going to be more intrigued by? Or, better example, would you rather pay for a 787 type rating or get someone to put up a bond in case they leave a little early...

The Norwegian supporters on here are correct that NAS/NAI/WOW are playing by the rules. So are all of the flag of convenience ships. They are wrong about the fact that I can't get angry at what they are doing. They are also wrong about the fact that "nothing can be done" about it. Write your congressmen. Talk to your union reps. These changes happen slowly, over generations sometimes. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be willing to fight it.

T28driver
07-14-2017, 04:32 PM
While start up flag-of-convenience airlines might be willing to risk their reputation with such a plan, the idea that Lufthansa, Air France, BA, AA, Delta, et al would work towards using a crew force made up of cheap, minimally qualified pilots is not something that keeps me up at night. The stakes are far too high, IMO.

Have you looked at the regional airline model? Because many people would argue it looks a lot like what you just described.

Full disclosure: I'm starting class at a regional soon.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 05:18 PM
As a 3rd officer on a US flag vessel in 2008, I made about $16,500 per month that I was at sea. A Filipino 3rd mate makes an average of $2,500 per month, or 15%.
My assumption is a 3rd officer and 3rd mate are significantly different positions with equally different qualifications. Were there any Filipino 3rd officers making 15% of what you made as a 3rd officer? Were there any merchant officers from the labor pool countries you mentioned on a different pay scale from western merchant officers?

I still contend that the safety implications and stakes are significantly different between major flag carriers around the world and merchant shipping operations.

As far as the cost of training, if you were a company offered the option of hiring a a trained candidate from the US, Great Britain, Etc. at an average career earning cost of $4-7 million OR paying $500k to train a pilot that will cost you $750k-1,000,000 in total career salary (20 year timeframe for both examples), which one are you going to be more intrigued by? Or, better example, would you rather pay for a 787 type rating or get someone to put up a bond in case they leave a little early... My point is that it's not just about money and seeking the cheapest labor. Maybe when you've had a chance to experience the 121 training environment and eventually, worldwide airline operations you'll have a different perspective.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 05:30 PM
Have you looked at the regional airline model? Because many people would argue it looks a lot like what you just described.

Full disclosure: I'm starting class at a regional soon.
I'm sure you can find minimally qualified candidates at regional airlines but the recent changes by the FAA have reduced that. In general, I wouldn't characterize all regional pilots that way. There are standards and usually they're enforced. Pilots need to start somewhere and if US safety standards were being compromised as a result, the safety record here would reflect that. RJs are not falling from the sky and killing travelers on a regular basis.

However, the scenario you expressed concern about didn't involve regional airlines. You had these low wage, low qualification pilots flying international wide-body aircraft for major airlines around the world. That's far different from a new, but properly trained pilot in an entry level job with a regional airline.

For example: Since you're just getting started in the industry, what are you're qualifications and background as a data point?

Maybe you can finish up your initial training and fly the line for a while. Then you'll be able to better decide if you think your scenario of airlines grabbing low wage earners from the Ukraine or Philippines and depressing qualifications and wages industry wide is realistic.

T28driver
07-14-2017, 07:10 PM
I'm sure you can find minimally qualified candidates at regional airlines but the recent changes by the FAA have reduced that. In general, I wouldn't characterize all regional pilots that way. There are standards and usually they're enforced. Pilots need to start somewhere and if US safety standards were being compromised as a result, the safety record here would reflect that. RJs are not falling from the sky and killing travelers on a regular basis.

However, the scenario you expressed concern about didn't involve regional airlines. You had these low wage, low qualification pilots flying international wide-body aircraft for major airlines around the world. That's far different from a new, but properly trained pilot in an entry level job with a regional airline.

For example: Since you're just getting started in the industry, what are you're qualifications and background as a data point?

Maybe you can finish up your initial training and fly the line for a while. Then you'll be able to better decide if you think your scenario of airlines grabbing low wage earners from the Ukraine or Philippines and depressing qualifications and wages industry wide is realistic.

Referencing the post before this, 3rd mate/3rd officer are interchangeable. Same as saying FO/copilot.

My qualifications: bare minimums for ATP, gathered slowly over 21 years of sporadic flight instruction, recreational flying, and travel for business.

With regard to "minimally qualified" pilots, re-read my posts. Many people immediately assume "cheap" equals "less qualified." This is simply not the case. Nowhere did I suggest a lowering of qualifications, simply the fact that many airlines have a history of attempting to lower wages whenever the ability presents itself. Off the top of my head, the B scale at American certainly jumps to mind.

I've been around aviation and shipping my entire life. They aren't that different. If you wish to believe that what happened in shipping can never happen in aviation, that is certainly your right. I don't believe the sky is falling, but I do believe that vigilance is necessary.

Or, a better way to look at it is that if I'm wrong, we all win. If you are wrong, but we (as pilots), take steps to protect ourselves, we all win. If I'm right but nobody believes it could happen until it's too late, we all lose.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 08:17 PM
Referencing the post before this, 3rd mate/3rd officer are interchangeable. Same as saying FO/copilot.

My qualifications: bare minimums for ATP, gathered slowly over 21 years of sporadic flight instruction, recreational flying, and travel for business.

With regard to "minimally qualified" pilots, re-read my posts. Many people immediately assume "cheap" equals "less qualified." This is simply not the case. Nowhere did I suggest a lowering of qualifications, simply the fact that many airlines have a history of attempting to lower wages whenever the ability presents itself. Off the top of my head, the B scale at American certainly jumps to mind.

I'm not saying I don't think variations of what you're suggesting aren't possible. The American airlines B-scale is an example of what you're talking about - where two individuals were paid drastically different wages for doing the same job. However, there's a big difference between that specific situation (where the skills and experience of the two individuals was essentially the same) and what you're talking about. That also occurred close to 30 years ago and hasn't been a factor in the US industry since.

I just don't share the opinion that because out-sourcing and moving jobs abroad has occurred in the shipping industry that the same threat is automatically hovering over the airline industry. I think the two situations are different enough (training required, consequences of failure, etc) that it's far less likely to happen in the way you described the scenario initially.

OK. Well, based on your own description of your qualifications, I would agree that you fall into the minimally qualified category. Taking 21 years to get to "barely ATP" mins is not optimum. You may or may not have your hands full in training - very dependent on you and whatever natural ability and basic skills you've been able to develop. You'll have to get back with us after you finish training as to how your current experience level prepared you to succeed.

In the case of what you're describing - pilot candidates from economically challenged country X, Y or Z being scooped up in high numbers and trained to replace more expensive pilots currently employed at major airlines: By definition that means minimally qualified. The average person in those countries just doesn't go out and get a private pilot's license on their own. It's not possible. For one, there just wouldn't be enough candidates like that. Two, a pilot with the means to do that, advance his ratings, gain experience and move up to more complex equipment isn't going to fall into the demographic you're describing - i.e. willing to work for peanuts compared to US and Europeans nationals in the same line of work. So, in the scenario you describe, cheaper DOES equal less qualified.

That's because in order to get those candidates trained from square one, they'll have to be trained by the airline that wants them in some form of ab-initio program. There isn't a ready made, already qualified pool of experienced pilots in the Ukraine, Philippines or anywhere else like that. That, by definition, means they will be minimally qualified with little no experience when they "graduate" other than what they were provided during training. There is no substitute for years and thousands of hours of actual flying time. Ab-initio types don't get that. They typically end up with about 250 hours of time, some basic instrument and multi-engine skills. Then they end up getting put into the right seat of airliner where 90% of the flying is done on auto-pilot. They become adequate system and autopilot operators with very little foundational stick and rudder skills. No short cuts, classroom lessons, testing and screening can create the skills sets, muscle memory and other related capabilities necessary to be a great pilot. That's just a simple fact.

So, I continue to be skeptical of your scenario which results in the world's major airlines operating wide-body, international flights crewed by a majority of pilots from the various countries you list willing to work for 1/10th scale wages...... while the rest of the US pilots are relegated to domestic flying as a result. I'm not suggesting it's impossible in a niche of the industry - I just don't see it happening on the scale you describe.

I think you continue to underestimate the stakes and potential consequences for any well established airline should they become willing to seek cheap, inexperienced labor to pilot their aircraft. They have a great deal to lose.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 08:38 PM
My qualifications: bare minimums for ATP, gathered slowly over 21 years of sporadic flight instruction, recreational flying, and travel for business.

I've been around aviation and shipping my entire life.
Just a couple of additional points.

Did you list your flight hours when you were traveling for business (as a paying airline passenger?) on your resume to get hired at the regional airline you haven't been trained at yet? :rolleyes: I didn't think so. Do you really think that's even relevant to list as one of your qualifications?

Being "around aviation" doesn't necessarily qualify you to comment on the threat of out-sourcing in an industry you have yet to earn a single dollar working in. How seriously would you have taken the opinions of the Filipino 3rd mate-to-be before he even started training?

The bottom line is: You don't know what you don't know. That may be hard to hear but it's true. Finish training and fly the line. Then maybe you can offer your opinions about training and qualifications of pilots with some actual knowledge to back them up.

T28driver
07-14-2017, 08:42 PM
Begin Edit: sigh. So close. I guess it is the internet. By "business travel" I literally mean flying my AA-1 Yankee, Cessna 172, and Cesssna 310 cross country for business. End Edit.

Adlerdriver-

I'm worried. You and I just had a long discussion with differing opinions on an internet board and neither of us resorted to name calling. We actually seemed to read and appreciate the other person's views and opinions. This is NOT how the internet is supposed to work. NEDude, get back in here and post some inflammatory stuff ASAP.

Completely agree I fall in the "minimally qualified" category on paper. I'm not expecting training to be a walk in the park, nor do I expect the job to be handed to me. I was a little disingenuous regarding my experience...most of my recreational flying is low level aerobatics (I have a SAC from the FAA). It takes a while to build up 1500 hours when you are doing it 30 minutes at a time. I've also spent time at Flight Safety in the last 6 months for a Westwind type, so while I wouldn't consider myself a proficient transport pilot, I have at least seen a v1 cut and shot a single engine approach to a go around in the box before.

Adlerdriver
07-14-2017, 09:57 PM
Begin Edit: sigh. So close. I guess it is the internet. By "business travel" I literally mean flying my AA-1 Yankee, Cessna 172, and Cesssna 310 cross country for business. End Edit.

Adlerdriver-

I'm worried. You and I just had a long discussion with differing opinions on an internet board and neither of us resorted to name calling. We actually seemed to read and appreciate the other person's views and opinions. This is NOT how the internet is supposed to work.
You're right. This is the internet and I can only go on what you post. If you'd been a bit more specific about your quals, then I would have left off some of my comments. Only you know (or will know) how prepared you feel and what results your current experience level generates in training.

Ok..... re-read your post and I get it now. Missed the tongue in cheek stuff first time around. It's late.

Good luck in training.

Denti
07-16-2017, 07:43 AM
While start up flag-of-convenience airlines might be willing to risk their reputation with such a plan, the idea that Lufthansa, Air France, BA, AA, Delta, et al would work towards using a crew force made up of cheap, minimally qualified pilots is not something that keeps me up at night. The stakes are far too high, IMO.

I guess you might have missed a few things there. BA is only one brand of IAG, which has other brands like Iberia (where they slashed conditions by more than 30% a few years back), Vueling (LCC, extremely bad conditions and no real entry test), Level (Longhaul LCC, until the end of the year crewed by Iberia, thereafter trying on Vueling terms). Air France/KLM (one company) has its own LCC with Transavia, but that doesn't really work all that well. But they still try. Lufthansa is massively outsourcing their work to less qualified and very badly paying companies. That is the express reason why they started their Eurowings brand under which quite a number of companies fly, currently Eurowings Germany (regional carrier that went from CRJs to A320), Eurowings Europe (based in Austria, new and extremely low paid company), SunExpress Germany (flying all A330s for Eurowings, non-unionized, no real entry test, extremely low paid), Brussels Airlines, Air Berlin (pure wetlease contractor). And they did outsource quite a few of their Lufthansa branded A340s to their regional arm Cityline, still on lower pay grade but nearly the same qualification requirement, which meant that they were crewed by pilots used to CRJs and Embraers without any longhaul experience.

The US carriers you know better than me, and yes, i cannot see the same happening their, except probably adjustments in scope clauses allowing larger and heavier aircraft to be operated by the regionals, probably starting with the E2 generation of Embraers as the main reason.

So yes, european carriers are active in outsourcing part of their operation to different pilot groups for less pay, and in some cases, less training and qualification. They still try to use different brands for that, but those brands take over substantial parts of the main carriers network, as Eurowings did for Lufthansa for example.

captjns
07-16-2017, 11:01 AM
So yes, european carriers are active in outsourcing part of their operation to different pilot groups for less pay, and in some cases, less training and qualification. They still try to use different brands for that, but those brands take over substantial parts of the main carriers network, as Eurowings did for Lufthansa for example.

US carriers do outsource, in the name of code sharing with OneWorld, Skyteam, and Start Alliance.

NEDude
07-16-2017, 12:05 PM
US carriers do outsource, in the name of code sharing with OneWorld, Skyteam, and Start Alliance.

And SkyWest, Endeavor, Air Wisconsin, Compass, Envoy, Mesa, Republic...

T28driver
07-16-2017, 02:05 PM
NEDude! Missed you. Smooches.

Just out of curiosity, what's your goal in starting these threads?

I'm guessing it's one of the following:

1) straight up trolling of US pilots to get them angry.
2) stimulation (giggity) of conversation about job outsourcing, the constant strive for lower wages and higher productivity, and how that manifests itself in the modern world.
3) you hate ALPA and want to gloat about how nothing they can do will stop the glorious march of European based low fare carriers into the transatlantic market, surely crushing the legacy carriers.

I just keep getting confused because you make some GREAT points about how maybe people are worried about the wrong things, or how what Norwegian is doing is technically completely within the rules, or how legacy carriers have a history of outsourcing and searching for cheaper labor whenever possible...but then you turn into a character out of a Nevil Shute novel where there's nothing to do but sit here and take it.

Just curious.

Adlerdriver
07-16-2017, 06:16 PM
I guess you might have missed a few things there.

The US carriers you know better than me, and yes, i cannot see the same happening their, except probably adjustments in scope clauses allowing larger and heavier aircraft to be operated by the regionals, probably starting with the E2 generation of Embraers as the main reason.

So yes, european carriers are active in outsourcing part of their operation to different pilot groups for less pay, and in some cases, less training and qualification.
I understand there is outsourcing and re-branding going on within the EU. I'm also not disputing the long standing policy of major airlines in the US or EU outsourcing some of their domestic flying to regional carriers. Finally, I realize that code sharing is happening throughout the industry world-wide.

My response was mainly targeted at this statement by our radial engine friend, T28.

I'm also scared that what happened to the US merchant fleet (and many others) will happen to the major airlines. I don't want to wake up and discover that my only options for employment are domestic flying because all of the international flying is handled by airlines technically run out of the Bahamas and crewed by nationals willing to work 11 month contracts for 1/10th of what a regional FO makes.

While US airlines have traditionally outsourced a good bit of their short haul flying, there is a slight trend at some of them to fold some of that flying back into their mainline. I think part of that trend is market driven due to lack of pilots at regional carriers resulting in service failures. Additionally, raising the pilot qualifications in the US has resulted in a positive industry trend in pay for the regional sector.

International code share agreements between US airlines and their partners overseas could be viewed as outsourcing to some degree. However, those reciprocal agreements are not one way streets. Passengers that would otherwise be on their national airline end up on the US airline that code shares with them. Sure it would be great if Delta, United or AA flew 100% of their long haul flight to international destinations. But that train has left the station. That reality is a long way from having Ukrainian or Filipino crews fly Delta flight 123 from Atlanta to Rome while relegating future Delta new hires to ATL-BOS for their career. That was my main argument.

When I fly into Paris, Frankfurt or the UK, I still see significant numbers of wide body, long-haul aircraft in in that country's flagship airline's colors flown by pilots employed and trained by those airlines. From what you say, those EU country's airlines appear to be less concern about outsourcing on the European content and select international markets, so I stand corrected. Since the focus of T28's concern was international (or maybe a better term is "inter-continental") flying, that's what I chose to discuss.