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View Full Version : Single Engine Add-on


ArmyFW
07-14-2017, 12:03 PM
Does anyone know if the GI Bill will pay for a single engine add-on if you already have your multi engine commercial? The army puts us through the king air training with not enough hours in the Grob to obtain single engine privileges.


ApachePhil
07-14-2017, 01:37 PM
Does anyone know if the GI Bill will pay for a single engine add-on if you already have your multi engine commercial? The army puts us through the king air training with not enough hours in the Grob to obtain single engine privileges.

They used to.

You will have to pass the PTS "add-on" maneuvers for MEL to SEL. Think lazy 8's, etc. Depending on the DPE, it won't be a gimme. I think most guys were having to buy 10 hours of SEL (non-complex) and then pay for a check ride. The FBO in Enterprise knew exactly what you needed at one time. Do your diligence, as this was as of 10 years ago.

FlewNavy
07-14-2017, 02:16 PM
They used to.

You will have to pass the PTS "add-on" maneuvers for MEL to SEL. Think lazy 8's, etc. Depending on the DPE, it won't be a gimme. I think most guys were having to buy 10 hours of SEL (non-complex) and then pay for a check ride. The FBO in Enterprise knew exactly what you needed at one time. Do your diligence, as this was as of 10 years ago.

Not worth burning GI bill money on. Depending on where you live that will be $1000 for the airplane, $250-500 for the CFI and 200-400 for the check ride.


ArmyFW
07-14-2017, 02:26 PM
I was told I needed
-10 hours of solo
-3 hours dual cross country (night)
-10 takeoff and landing to a full stop (night)
-6 hours of dual in preparation for solo
-3 hours dual in preparation for the checkride

That is directly from one of the CFI's here in Dothan

I've been looking through the FAR's but am confused because I know I will have a commercial multi land and instrument ticket, but no single engine stuff. So I am having a hard time picking out what pertains to me

badflaps
07-14-2017, 02:54 PM
You do all of that, you will be a brand new private pilot.

ArmyFW
07-14-2017, 02:55 PM
You do all of that, you will be a brand new private pilot.

So I don't need to do it?

badflaps
07-14-2017, 04:35 PM
Those are all initial requirements, many of those you already have. Get ahold of somebody at the FAA or at least a designee who will give you the straight scoop.

60av8tor
07-14-2017, 06:31 PM
So I don't need to do it?


No you don't. From 61.63:

(c) Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(2) Must pass the practical test.

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

As others have said, you merely need a logbook endorsement for the practical - obviously some time to be proficient in the required maneuvers. There is also no need to do anything in a complex. I did similar to what you're doing - had my rotor and AMEL ATP, then did a comm ASEL add on. Several hours with a CFI practicing the maneuvers in a 172 and a check ride - done...

I also agree with another poster re it being a waste of benefits. IMO, unless it's a university program, I think flight training is a waste of the GI Bill. That being said, I used mine to do my multi commercial. I paid out of pocket for the single. As far as using the GI Bill, it has been a while, but I believe it had to be a 141 program to use it. Not sure if that has changed.

BeatNavy
07-14-2017, 06:41 PM
I've learned to "trust but verify" CFIs. Especially those in enterprise and Dothan. But maybe 10 hours of soloing a Cessna will be fun.

Have the CFI read 61.63.c and then ask where the 10 hours of solo requirement comes from. Ask him if you get a commercial single engine rating first, do you need 10 hours of soloing a multi to get a multi add on? Makes no sense.

Just get proficient at the maneuvers and take the checkride. Get some intel on the DPE first and make sure it is a mil-friendly guy. No need for a pink slip bc a guy has it out for mil folks. They are few but out there.

61.63.c

Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

(2) Must pass the practical test.

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, weight-shift-control aircraft, powered parachute, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

BFMthisA10
07-15-2017, 04:13 AM
I was told I needed
-10 hours of solo
-3 hours dual cross country (night)
-10 takeoff and landing to a full stop (night)
-6 hours of dual in preparation for solo
-3 hours dual in preparation for the checkride

That is directly from one of the CFI's here in Dothan

He quoted you the initial private pilot training requirements.
Not applicable to your situation. At all.

155mm
07-15-2017, 07:40 AM
Don't know about today's GI Bill but definitely go for the commercial or ATP SEL add-on (depending on fixed wing time)! Check with your tax accountant because at the commercial add-on level or above you are getting education to enhance your career and it may be a write-off. The ATP SEL ride is an instrument check and doesn't have lazy 8's, etc.

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 10:04 AM
The only thing I really want is the ability to rent a Cessna on the weekends at most. I will be getting my Milti engine ATP soon but don't really think I need the single engine add-on. I just want private privileges in a Single engine

Barnstormer
07-15-2017, 10:29 AM
The only thing I really want is the ability to rent a Cessna on the weekends at most. I will be getting my Milti engine ATP soon but don't really think I need the single engine add-on. I just want private privileges in a Single engine

Having done this flying thing for over 40 years, get the highest ratings possible. if you want to pay the bills by flying, be able to fly anything on the ramp.

BeatNavy
07-15-2017, 12:23 PM
The only thing I really want is the ability to rent a Cessna on the weekends at most. I will be getting my Milti engine ATP soon but don't really think I need the single engine add-on. I just want private privileges in a Single engine

Go through the requirements for an add on PPL, comm ASEL, and ATP ASEL in the applicable PTSs and part 61. Check 61.165.e for ATP add on info. Your checkride requirements for the ATP ASEL are easier than the PPL/COMM checkride imo since there aren't any real maneuvers, minus having to do the instrument approaches, but those are easy. It'll be no different than your ATP AMEL ride but with no single engine stuff (well I guess the whole ride is single engine, but you know what I mean) and it'd be in a less complex plane.

Don't assume that a lower rating/privileges means an easier or less complex checkride or preparation process. In this case, the opposite is true. You'd never have to do private or commercial single maneuvers. An army helo only IP/SP buddy of mine busted his ASEL private add on because his short field landing was out of PTS standards. How would you like to explain busting a PPL add on ride after being a commercially rated pilot and military instructor/examiner.

The private ride is a basic airmanship ride, the commercial ride is an energy management stick and rudder maneuvers ride, and the ATP ride is mostly another instrument ride. It's assumed at that point you've done all the other stuff. If you're already an ATP rated airplane pilot for two-motored planes, why cut yourself short on fewer privileges with more basic flying tasks to spend time/money on (and get evaluated on and possibly bust)? There's an argument to be made that any ATP ASEL pilot should be able to perform short field landings, chandelles, lazy 8s, etc., but if you never have to be evaluated on them in a jeopardy event because you hold a higher rating already, who cares?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/adding-asel-to-atp-amel.88061/page-2

This thread is about the same issue you have and what the guy did about it (ATP ASEL add on ended up being the easiest route for him).

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 02:27 PM
Thanks I understand the process now and I'm digging through the regs and finding a new CFI

I also realize I should have done a better job at explaining what I will have. I'm still at Rucker going through training and only have like 20 hours in an airplane right now. When I finish the training next month I will get my commercial but I will have less than the 250 technically needed. But I know that this is because of graduating from a military flight school. Will I need to get the 250 Total hours before being eligible for the single engine add-on?

155mm
07-15-2017, 02:49 PM
Thanks I understand the process now and I'm digging through the regs and finding a new CFI

I also realize I should have done a better job at explaining what I will have. I'm still at Rucker going through training and only have like 20 hours in an airplane right now. When I finish the training next month I will get my commercial but I will have less than the 250 technically needed. But I know that this is because of graduating from a military flight school. Will I need to get the 250 Total hours before being eligible for the single engine add-on?

Still confused! Are you a rated Army Helicopter pilot with an FAA Commercial/Instrument Rotorcraft going through fixed wing transition?

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 03:02 PM
I'm in the fixed wing for life program, so we went through primary flying the Lakota and then went straight to Dothan to get qualified on fixed wing.

I've already taken the commercial test at the PHPA place in Dothan and they said when I graduate from Rucker I will get my AMEL commercial as well as rotary commercial because we took checkrides in both as well as the instrument ticket. It's very confusing for them as well because the process is pretty new

155mm
07-15-2017, 03:18 PM
I'm in the fixed wing for life program, so we went through primary flying the Lakota and then went straight to Dothan to get qualified on fixed wing.

I've already taken the commercial test at the PHPA place in Dothan and they said when I graduate from Rucker I will get my AMEL commercial as well as rotary commercial because we took checkrides in both as well as the instrument ticket. It's very confusing for them as well because the process is pretty new

When you get your wings, take the military competency exam from the FAA, bring all your training records to the FAA and see what ratings they give you based on your military training. Be patient, it takes time!

I'm still confused, Is the Army contracting out your undergraduate pilot training to a civilian flight training program or are you getting instructed by the military?

When you say you already took the "commercial test" are saying you indeed have an FAA commercial rating or just took the commercial written exam? Honestly, none of this makes sense! Are you a troll?

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 03:22 PM
No I'm not a troll lol. I took the compentency exam already. But do not have the actual license yet. There is a place right outside of base called the Proffesional Helicopter Pilots association that pretty much my entire class went to after instruments phase and took the test. They said when we get our wings bring our documents back to them and the actual FAA representative will be there to give us our actual license. They do that to minimize the wait time apparently. Since we already have taken the exam all we need to do is show that we graduated and it's done. I wish I knew more about it but I've only been flying since last October.

So how it works now for us we do our primary flight training in helicopters by a civilian contractor (URS). Then the fixed wing guys go to Dothan and get trained by CAE.

Really everyone, even the people at the PHPA are confused by our situation since we start on helicopters and end in fixed wing.

155mm
07-15-2017, 03:30 PM
No I'm not a troll lol. I took the compentency exam already. But do not have the actual license yet. There is a place right outside of base called the Proffesional Helicopter Pilots association that pretty much my entire class went to after instruments phase and took the test. They said when we get our wings bring our documents back to them and the actual FAA representative will be there to give us our actual license. They do that to minimize the wait time apparently. Since we already have taken the exam all we need to do is show that we graduated and it's done. I wish I knew more about it but I've only been flying since last October.

So how it works now for us we do our primary flight training in helicopters by a civilian contractor (URS). Then the fixed wing guys go to Dothan and get trained by CAE.

Really everyone, even the people at the PHPA are confused by our situation since we start on helicopters and end in fixed wing.

My advice is to wait until the dust settles and see what ratings you hold in your hand after all the training is complete. Getting a SEL add-on shouldn't be a big deal!

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 03:35 PM
Thanks sorry for all the confusion!

155mm
07-15-2017, 03:49 PM
Thanks sorry for all the confusion!

Hey congratulations! Sounds like you scored a great flying slot! Thanks for your service and all the best!

BeatNavy
07-15-2017, 04:51 PM
Don't you train in a single engine grob now? You should be able to get an ASEL out of that too I would think, unless your training doesn't meet the faa mil comp requirements.

ArmyFW
07-15-2017, 05:40 PM
Don't you train in a single engine grob now? You should be able to get an ASEL out of that too I would think, unless your training doesn't meet the faa mil comp requirements.

We do train in the grob but apparently it isn't enough hours to meet minimums. According to my logbook I have 22 hours in the Grob

Taco280AI
07-16-2017, 05:29 AM
I was told I needed
-10 hours of solo
-3 hours dual cross country (night)
-10 takeoff and landing to a full stop (night)
-6 hours of dual in preparation for solo
-3 hours dual in preparation for the checkride

That is directly from one of the CFI's here in Dothan

I've been looking through the FAR's but am confused because I know I will have a commercial multi land and instrument ticket, but no single engine stuff. So I am having a hard time picking out what pertains to me

I was rotor to fixed and needed 26.5 hours of FW for my private add on. I think Dothan is trying to get some extra $$$

joepilot
07-24-2017, 01:33 PM
Will your duty station have an flying club? That is usually the best place to get your CSEL added on. Come to think of it, do military bases still even have flying clubs anymore? I have been out for a while.

Joe

FlewNavy
07-24-2017, 07:03 PM
Will your duty station have an flying club? That is usually the best place to get your CSEL added on. Come to think of it, do military bases still even have flying clubs anymore? I have been out for a while.

Joe

Some bases still do. JAX, PAX River, Monterrey come to mind. That being said - we have instructors and "cheap" time but no DPE's.

jdmorg13
07-25-2017, 03:31 PM
I'm an Army FW guy that did the same thing. You'll get more bad info than good from both CFIs and the FSDO. If you PM me your email I'll send you the input that I got from a guy that used to be contracted out to provide the SEL add-on to Army FW guys back in the day.

Bottom line, you'll need to go through the Part 61 table that lists what is required for a comm add-on. Lazy8s, chandelle's, etc. Be advised, however, interactions with DPEs can be a totally different experience than what you're used to at FlightSafety. These guys couldn't care less whether you pass or fail, they're strictly there to evaluate (and collect a hefty fee).

I would plan about 10-15 hours with a CFI at a local club to get where you need to be with these maneuvers.

tonsterboy5
07-26-2017, 04:41 PM
yes the GI bill will pay, PM sent

desertrat67
11-14-2017, 11:53 AM
We do train in the grob but apparently it isn't enough hours to meet minimums. According to my logbook I have 22 hours in the Grob

Check your PMs.

rockyflight13
01-02-2018, 05:42 PM
I completed flight school in early 2016. Flew my butt off in Korea and am at 700+ hours TOTAL time. I only have the 18.6 ASEL hours we got in C-182 and Zlin with flight safety. My unit sent me to ATP/CTP, but I have not completed the practical or written exams. I went to a flight school in a northern state and after an in-depth review with the FSDO, CFI's and DPE we determined the only time I need to complete was from 61.129 (a)- sections 3 and 4. When all is said and done I will be paying for 2.3 instrument dual time, 2 hour XC day-vfr greater than 100 nm, 2 hour XC night VFR greater than 100 nm (from the 20 hours required in section 3) and 10 hours solo which must include 1 XC flight 300 nm with 3 landings of which 1 must be at least 250 nm away and 5 hours night VFR with 5 takeofs and landings (from section 4). Some of the XC time may count for both. I went and flew a 1.1 with an instructor who immediately gave me a solo endorsement to go do the rest of the leg work to get those hours.

Total, this will cost me around $3000 to pay for the 15 hours flight time and then take a check ride with a DPE. I'm flying a Piper Arrow at $180 wet.

BosoxH60
01-04-2018, 11:56 AM
We do train in the grob but apparently it isn't enough hours to meet minimums. According to my logbook I have 22 hours in the Grob

It's not the amount of time. We get the Comm RW with ~130 hours (Maybe more or less depending on aircraft). (And it would be less if they "graduated us" after BWS before advanced aircraft, like they used to do back before FS XXI. Actually, since you're FW for life, you have that lesser amount of time in RW.)

We don't (or at least 2.5 years ago with Flight Safety vs CAE) do the ground reference maneuvers. That's why they (FSI) put that little blurb at the bottom of your records sheet when you graduate.

When I went to my FSDO, after explaining that yes... the army has airplanes too, and yes, FSI has actual airplanes, not just simulators, I asked if I could get the single engine as well. He asked if I took a checkride. I said yes, and pointed to my logbook where I had put in the remarks "Checkride" and the IP's name, that was on a C182, and he signed off on it.

Petie25
08-23-2018, 08:49 AM
I currently have an AMEL commercial certificate and want to get a single-engine add on so I can do some weekend flying. I have been a mil IP in single-engine aircraft. Do I need to take an ASEL mil comp commercial exam or can I just show the FSDO my current AMEL commercial certificate, single-engine form 8, and my flight records?

HuggyU2
08-27-2018, 01:07 PM
I currently have an AMEL commercial certificate and want to get a single-engine add on so I can do some weekend flying. I have been a mil IP in single-engine aircraft. Do I need to take an ASEL mil comp commercial exam or can I just show the FSDO my current AMEL commercial certificate, single-engine form 8, and my flight records?

This has been addressed many times before.

Go to the FSDO and get your ASEL commercial.

Also, why don't you have a CFI/CFII?