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View Full Version : Active Duty vs ANG


deagan14
08-07-2017, 07:19 AM
I am a recent higschool grad with my private pilots license, and I am having one heck of a time trying to figure out my future. I'm applying to the Air Force Academy and am a competitive applicant for the class of 2022 but I'm also looking hard into the Air National Guard. This year I will be attending a state school on a 4 year full ride scholarship and if I decide to pursue the ANG I will finish my schooling there and then apply for ANG upt slots out of school, if I decide the Academy way, I will finish my first year of school at my state school and then transfer. My ultimate goal is to one day become a pilot for a legacy carrier, but I know I want to be apart of the military in some aspect first. I've read all about how it's a bad idea to simply use the military as a stepping stone to the airliners, but that's not my intention. I WANT TO SERVE, and am simply looking ahead. As of now I'm definitely leaning towards the Academy if accepted, here is the pro/con list I've been able to come up with

USAFA (active Duty)

PROS:

Opportunity to attend an amazing school
With a PPL in hand I could likely get on the powered flight team
Much more adventurous and get to be based in different places around the world
I would never have any regrets wondering "what if"
You don't usually have to fly for a regional airliner after you serve

Cons

You don't know what aircraft you will fly (assuming you get a flight slot)
There's a lot of office work that goes along with the flying

AIR NATIONAL GUARD

Pros

Get to airliners at younger age
Still get the military experience along with training
I would know what plane I was going to UPT for
Build up seniority at regional while in UPT

Cons

Very competitive slots to compete for
You don't get to move around at all compared to active Duty
Wouldn't get the academy experience
More expensive for you would have to build up a decent portfolio of flying time to be competitive for a UPT slot
Possible regrets wondering what if I went to USAFA

So assuming I received an appointment to USAFA would anyone turn it down and try to join the ANG down the road? Thanks in advance for your help!


deagan14
08-07-2017, 07:33 AM
The reason I am so lost without directions is because I don't think I could turn down such an opportunity to attend the academy, but at the same time I've read that so many people wish they knew about the Air National Gaurd before they went full active Duty

bababouey
08-07-2017, 08:03 AM
You're going to want the freedom a guard unit offers you. I knew I wanted off active duty pretty quickly, 10 years of AFPC controlling your life in the greatest airline boom of all time is just too much. Talk to some actual grads about going to the zoo, not exactly rave reviews. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Merle Dixon
08-07-2017, 10:13 AM
This year I will be attending a state school on a 4 year full ride scholarship and if I decide to pursue the ANG I will finish my schooling there and then apply for ANG upt slots out of school, if I decide the Academy way, I will finish my first year of school at my state school and then transfer. My ultimate goal is to one day become a pilot for a legacy carrier, but I know I want to be apart of the military in some aspect first. I've read all about how it's a bad idea to simply use the military as a stepping stone to the airliners, but that's not my intention. I WANT TO SERVE,

Dude,

Active-duty sucks. The Academy sucks even more. Your Active-Duty Service Commitment (ADSC) with the AF is 10 years upon pilot training graduation. Stick with your current scholarship! Start hunting for an AF Reserve or Guard pilot training slot now. In this day and age via our massive pilot shortage, it is not too difficult for a college student/grad with flight time to find a Reserve/Guard pilot position.

I am a Traditional-Reservist part-time T-38 instructor pilot at an AF pilot training base. We have lots of students just like you- college grads that applied for Reserve/Guard pilot training slots and got hired. Many of them applied to multiple Reserve/Guard units and eventually got a job. The Guard/Reserve gig is the best deal there is.

propfails2FX
08-07-2017, 10:16 AM
I am a recent higschool grad with my private pilots license, and I am having one heck of a time trying to figure out my future. I'm applying to the Air Force Academy and am a competitive applicant for the class of 2022 but I'm also looking hard into the Air National Guard. This year I will be attending a state school on a 4 year full ride scholarship and if I decide to pursue the ANG I will finish my schooling there and then apply for ANG upt slots out of school, if I decide the Academy way, I will finish my first year of school at my state school and then transfer. My ultimate goal is to one day become a pilot for a legacy carrier, but I know I want to be apart of the military in some aspect first. I've read all about how it's a bad idea to simply use the military as a stepping stone to the airliners, but that's not my intention. I WANT TO SERVE, and am simply looking ahead. As of now I'm definitely leaning towards the Academy if accepted, here is the pro/con list I've been able to come up with

USAFA (active Duty)

PROS:

Opportunity to attend an amazing school
With a PPL in hand I could likely get on the powered flight team
Much more adventurous and get to be based in different places around the world
I would never have any regrets wondering "what if"
You don't usually have to fly for a regional airliner after you serve

Cons

You don't know what aircraft you will fly (assuming you get a flight slot)
There's a lot of office work that goes along with the flying

AIR NATIONAL GUARD

Pros

Get to airliners at younger age
Still get the military experience along with training
I would know what plane I was going to UPT for
Build up seniority at regional while in UPT

Cons

Very competitive slots to compete for
You don't get to move around at all compared to active Duty
Wouldn't get the academy experience
More expensive for you would have to build up a decent portfolio of flying time to be competitive for a UPT slot
Possible regrets wondering what if I went to USAFA

So assuming I received an appointment to USAFA would anyone turn it down and try to join the ANG down the road? Thanks in advance for your help!

I think it's great that you and Flyguy4723 both want to serve your country as military aviators.

It's human nature for someone to recommend you follow in their footsteps if career goals have been met. So you'll get a lot of, "The Navy/Coast Guard/ Air Force is the best way to go."

It's hard to predict military pilot hiring five years from now. When I was a CAP Cadet in high school, the Air Force/ANG pilots I met told me to go the Navy route because the USAF had an excessive amount of pilots. I signed up for NROTC, and four years later, the USAF was desperate for pilots. I'm glad I went the route I did, but your takeaway should be that times change and so do pilot slot allocations.

The overall trend you'll hear from most military pilots is USAFR/ANG UPT slots afford the most amount of flexibility and are probably the best deals going. They are hyper competitive, but that shouldn't discourage you.

It would be great if a USAFA grad currently serving the 10 year after winging active duty obligation chimes in.

It's great that you are seeking advice. You'll be making an informed decision. I had USNA friends in flight school who never heard of professional pilot degree programs. They couldn't believe my studies focused on flying airplanes.

In advanced multi-engine training, I flew with other students who had been selected to fly ANG or USAFR C-130s. Again, a total shock to a lot of classmates. I remember hearing, "You mean, you know what squadron you're going to fly for? You stay with that squadron your whole career?"

Some career decisions will be better than others. None of them are really "Bad" if you end up earning a pair of Gold or Silver wings.

Their will be some luck involved. Most of the pilots I know have a personal story of fate working in their favor.

I wish you the best. Work your butt off in school, and keep an open mind.

CLazarus
08-07-2017, 10:21 AM
I knew a lot of Zoo graduates in my USAF time, and frankly I don't remember any who came away with fond memories of the place. My UPT class was mostly fresh Academy grads and their mindsets reminded me of paroled prisoners. The best reason to attend is if you can't afford to go elsewhere and have ambitions towards a full career with maximum promotion potential, as the Zoomie Force is strong in networking. Since you already have a full ride and don't pine to wear stars, you really don't need to put yourself through the pain of Zoo education. And getting a civilian education has a lot of benefits all its own.

Aside from getting hired with the ANG, another avenue is ROTC if your school offers it or OTS. Anyone can walk on to ROTC and try to get a pilot slot, scholarship or no. One of my best buddies left grad school for OTS with a UPT slot in the early 90's, I don't know if OTS is even an option these days but when recruiting is tough like it is now I'd imagine it is. Considering the Active Duty pilot commitment is the same regardless of AD commissioning source and it seems you'd be happy flying any manned USAF platform, you should really look into ROTC and OTS. In the meantime, feel free to pursue the ANG path, it is a great way to serve and get a seniority number to boot.

khaki
08-07-2017, 11:03 AM
If one of the Guard Units is driving distance from your school, you might consider joining part time enlisted (flight line or weapons loading best).
If you do good, they like you, and you are otherwise qualified, your chances of getting a UPT slot are immensely better. They love to hire from within.... IF they are impressed with you. Good luck with your choice.

C130driver
08-07-2017, 11:05 AM
Dude it's not even a question : go guard! Serve your country while flying airplanes and silver lining: get on with a regional at 750 and get to a major quicker.

Scraggly Heron
08-07-2017, 11:48 AM
I knew a lot of Zoo graduates in my USAF time, and frankly I don't remember any who came away with fond memories of the place. My UPT class was mostly fresh Academy grads and their mindsets reminded me of paroled prisoners. The best reason to attend is if you can't afford to go elsewhere and have ambitions towards a full career with maximum promotion potential, as the Zoomie Force is strong in networking. Since you already have a full ride and don't pine to wear stars, you really don't need to put yourself through the pain of Zoo education. And getting a civilian education has a lot of benefits all its own.

Aside from getting hired with the ANG, another avenue is ROTC if your school offers it or OTS. Anyone can walk on to ROTC and try to get a pilot slot, scholarship or no. One of my best buddies left grad school for OTS with a UPT slot in the early 90's, I don't know if OTS is even an option these days but when recruiting is tough like it is now I'd imagine it is. Considering the Active Duty pilot commitment is the same regardless of AD commissioning source and it seems you'd be happy flying any manned USAF platform, you should really look into ROTC and OTS. In the meantime, feel free to pursue the ANG path, it is a great way to serve and get a seniority number to boot.

There's really no advantage to going to USAFA other than not having to pay for it. Unless you graduate in the top 10%, it's not something that will be helpful for a career either. If you want networking opportunities, you'll get those in whatever flying unit you join.

I'm with C130driver on this--if you can get the guard slot, it's a no-brainer.

For what it's worth, whenever someone asks me where I went to college, it's always somewhat embarrassing to say USAFA. Not a good place to be, not a good place to be from either.

F4E Mx
08-07-2017, 12:01 PM
Hedge your bets, get a civil engineering degree (ABET accredited) at a civilian university with a good reputation, then do the Guard thingy. If the guard/airline path works out fine, if the airline hiring goes south you still have the Guard slot. If both go south or you get tired of it, you have a very employable degree.

Hrkdrivr
08-07-2017, 12:39 PM
Another Zoomie here. No regrets and I did a full career...but...

When I was there, if you were (physically) pilot qualified (PQ), you were expected to go to UPT. In fact, if you were PQ and you did NOT want to go to UPT, you had to talk your way up the chain and explain why not.

Now if you're PQ and you want to fly, you "volunteer" for a "rated assignment" (I think that's the term). Here's the kicker, "rated assignments" are UPT, UAVs or air battle managers (AWACS back-enders). You're racked and stacked against every other PQ person in your class and they have an assignment event where you pick what you want from what's left. From what I've heard, UPT slots outweigh the other two by a lot, but there's a real possibility you might end up NOT going to UPT.

My info might be a little off, but that's the gist of it. Far be it from me to dissuade someone from going to the USAFA if you really want it. But you have to want it for more than a pilot slot. I made lifelong friends and had great experiences you don't get in a "real" school. Oh, and a great education. But we missed out on a lot too. You need to decide what your real goals are. If you simply want to fly military and get on with airlines ASAP, more power to you, but you will hate every day at the USAFA. I realized after the first week wanting to be an AF pilot wasn't nearly enough motivation to make me put up with the place.

**EDIT** after re-reading OP's post: good on you for wanting to serve, ANG/AFRES/AD will all give you the opportunity.

One of your comments really got my attention (my first assignment was as a UPT IP), something about gaining seniority at a regional while at UPT. The only way you'll be able to do that is if you're on MIL leave from your regional the entire time you're at UPT. There's no way you'll be able to do anything but UPT while you're there. You might already know this, but I wasn't sure what you meant by that comment.

Sliceback
08-07-2017, 01:08 PM
Get your ratings ASAP. Graduate and get a regional job with a flow through regional airline (currently only with AA regionals). Take a military leave of absence for UPT. Your flow date to the major doesn't change due to your military service.

*THAT's* living the dream.

Sliceback
08-07-2017, 01:11 PM
Lots of AD guys wish they'd known about the ANG before they committed to AD.

Number of ANG guys that say they wish they'd gone AD instead of being in the ANG? That's a very, very, small minority.

Hrkdrivr
08-07-2017, 01:26 PM
Lots of AD guys wish they'd known about the ANG before they committed to AD.

Yep!

Number of ANG guys that say they wish they'd gone AD instead of being in the ANG? That's a very, very, small minority.

Double yep!

deagan14
08-07-2017, 01:30 PM
Wow I wasn't expecting so much input so quickly! Thank you all for your opinion!! I'm definitely getting the consensus of going ANG. If I decide to go this route do you all suggest trying to get all my ratings before I apply for a slot or would that be a waste of money? In addition, is it harder to get a slot to out of state units? I know most people join ANG to be able to remain in their home state, but I want to experience some place new. At my young age I have a strong itch to get out and see what's beyond my home state.

bababouey
08-07-2017, 01:41 PM
If you don't mind the reserves vs the guard, you can submit an unsponsored package and any unit can hire you.


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Sliceback
08-07-2017, 03:28 PM
If you get your ratings you'll be more competitive as a candidate at an ANG unit. But it's not just your flying experience, it's a total candidate review that gets chosen.

Getting your ratings isn't a waste if you don't get selected!

With your ratings and 1500 hrs you can get a regional job and go to SUPT while keeping your position on the seniority list.

You'll see plenty of places over your career. And if you're willing to commute you can live almost anywhere, to include S. America or Europe. Stateside your options will be only limited by your plan threshold.

mainlineAF
08-07-2017, 04:53 PM
Wow I wasn't expecting so much input so quickly! Thank you all for your opinion!! I'm definitely getting the consensus of going ANG. If I decide to go this route do you all suggest trying to get all my ratings before I apply for a slot or would that be a waste of money? In addition, is it harder to get a slot to out of state units? I know most people join ANG to be able to remain in their home state, but I want to experience some place new. At my young age I have a strong itch to get out and see what's beyond my home state.



Most guard/reserve units require you to at least have your private to apply for a UPT slot.

duece12345
08-07-2017, 05:55 PM
Most guard/reserve units require you to at least have your private to apply for a UPT slot.

Some (mine) Do not. We just hired a dude with 14 hrs.

PRS Guitars
08-09-2017, 04:57 AM
If I decide to go this route do you all suggest trying to get all my ratings before I apply for a slot or would that be a waste of money? In addition, is it harder to get a slot to out of state units?

I'd get my PPC, beyond that, depends. If you have the money and time, yes. It's very possible to build some time get a regional job then go to UPT. If you can get to a major before UPT...you'd be King Kong, but that's rare. If you don't have the money, I'd just knock out the PPC and concentrate on getting hired by a Gaurd unit.

Being willing to move to another state is a huge advantage. There are units in less desirable areas of the Country that are much much easier to get hired in. Also, if you don't care what you fly...this helps big time too. If you really want fighters, you'll definitely increase your odds by gunning for every unit that's hiring. Once hired, it is possible to change units.

Merle Dixon
08-09-2017, 10:20 AM
I'd get my PPC, beyond that, depends. If you have the money and time, yes. It's very possible to build some time get a regional job then go to UPT. If you can get to a major before UPT...you'd be King Kong, but that's rare. If you don't have the money, I'd just knock out the PPC and concentrate on getting hired by a Gaurd unit.

Being willing to move to another state is a huge advantage. There are units in less desirable areas of the Country that are much much easier to get hired in. Also, if you don't care what you fly...this helps big time too. If you really want fighters, you'll definitely increase your odds by gunning for every unit that's hiring. Once hired, it is possible to change units.

Spot on. We have numerous Guard/Reserve students in UPT right now. I've flown with Guard/Reserve students that are regional airline pilots, students that got hired by the Guard/Reserve with a CFI, others had a PPL with Inst rating, some with just a PPL. Almost every Guard/Reserve student I fly with applied at several different Guard or Reserve squadrons.

In your Sophomore or Junior year of college you need to contact any and all Guard or Reserve units that you are interested in flying for. Do some googling and call whatever units you are interested in and ask to speak with the DO (Director of Operations). Tell him/her that you are enrolled in University X, describe your flying experience and ask what their pilot application process is.

In this day and age with a our YUGE pilot shortage, you will find a unit to hire you.

And, one more pile on, the Guard/Reserve life is immensely better than active-duty, avoid active-duty like the plague.

Good luck.

deagan14
08-09-2017, 12:35 PM
Ya I'd definitely apply to out of state units I am from Montana and we have a c-130 unit a couple hours away, but I still want to get out and explore some where new. I'd love to fly fighters but we will see if that changes over the next couple years and how competitive it is. At this point I'm thinking of majoring in aeronautical engineering does anyone have any suggestions as to if this is a good idea. Besides the obvious do well in school and build as much flight time as possible is there anything else I should be doing to build a very strong resume for guard units?

Sam York
08-09-2017, 01:06 PM
Make sure you can keep your grades up in engineering. Some units, especially if they don't know you (no face time/rushing) will look harder at this number than others that may know you. Engineering tends to have students with lower GPAs than say business or pro pilot or some other bull sh1t major. I'd rather see I guy with a 2.5 in Electrical Engineering than a guy with a 3.8 in pro pilot. Get your ratings at a local FBO. But that's just me.

I'd suggest Mechanical Engineering instead of Aero. ME and AE degrees are almost the same but AE for some reason pigeon holes you to a certain extent in the nonpilot job world. ME grads seem to have more career prospects but also are included in most of the disciplines that are open to AE grads.

Stick to ME, EE or CIV. But you really can't go wrong with any engineering degree.

joepilot
08-10-2017, 08:32 AM
If one of the Guard Units is driving distance from your school, you might consider joining part time enlisted (flight line or weapons loading best).
If you do good, they like you, and you are otherwise qualified, your chances of getting a UPT slot are immensely better. They love to hire from within.... IF they are impressed with you. Good luck with your choice.

Agree fully, add Reserve in there also. If you enlist as Guard or Reserve during college and then get a commission and UPT the four years counts toward twenty year military retirement.

Joe

TorFCertifiable
08-17-2017, 04:47 PM
I enlisted out of high school as an aircraft mechanic, and now I'm competitive for major airlines with heavy aircraft mechanical experience, a fully funded bachelor's and MBA, instructor pilot time, and in a couple years, a vested 20-year ANG retirement. I have seen the world flying a military cargo plane and didn't have to go more than 100 miles from my hometown for college (fully paid by ANG, on top of a scholarship). It's a short drive for the non-flying portion of my military career and the local training flights. It's a great gig, and I recommend it to anyone who wants to serve.

As others have said, the guard units are like a family, and they love to hire their own. If you find a place you'd like to spend a few years, and they (or another unit in that state) have a plane you think you would like to fly when you graduate, go talk to a recruiter and meet some folks from the unit.

Another advantage is that you can continue to serve as you learn in the civilian sector as a student, regional pilot, fireman, or whatever you want to do. The USAFA package is an attractive one, and I'd be pleased to see any of my children follow that path. For me, the guard has given me the fullest life.

Adlerdriver
08-18-2017, 07:21 AM
Lots of AD guys wish they'd known about the ANG before they committed to AD.

Number of ANG guys that say they wish they'd gone AD instead of being in the ANG? That's a very, very, small minority.
Here's a slightly different perspective.

I'm not saying I disagree with the advice being provided. However, almost everyone offering it is doing so with a pair of wings on their chest, many with an airline job already. It's easy to look at the situation at that point and Monday morning QB. "I'd have been hired at my airline sooner if only I went ANG"..... "I never would have had those 6 PCS moves and a remote tour"...... "I could have gotten aircraft X, Y or Z straight out of UPT", etc.

Those may be all good reasons for a guy who already has a 4-year degree, sitting at a crossroads in his life looking at an aviation career and trying to decide mil or civilian.

You can't offer the same advice to a high school student trying to plan out college who may be considering joining the military as a pilot. If becoming a military pilot is his number one goal, then choosing to go ANG closes a lot of doors toward attaining that goal.

Unless he's going to enlist in the ANG and do the GI Bill in the hope he can get into a future UPT slot that way, he has to find a way to pay for college. If he's got that covered somehow, great. Otherwise, planning to go ANG after college means he's bypassing a potential USAFA appointment and ROTC scholarships and committing to paying his own way through school.

Then there's the challenge of actually getting a UPT slot. Like it or not, becoming a military pilot is a bit of a numbers game. Right now, the USAF needs pilots but that's not always the case. Bypassing a shot at the academy or ROTC now means lost chances at a far larger number of pilot slots than the ANG units offer. The odds of actually being selected for a UPT slot in an ANG unit are far, far smaller for those who only try that route than the guys who try every possible avenue. Most folks who really want it are willing to cast the widest net possible. At some point it may come down to just how much a set of AF wings is worth. Someone who won't even try unless they can achieve that goal under the optimum circumstances, choosing the jet they fly, the location and getting into a major airline job before age 30 probably really doesn't want to serve that badly.

The other thing for guys who want to fly fighters is this:
Unless we're talking all out mobilization, most of the time, front line active duty units are going to be the ones called up to the show. Look at the percentage of active duty units versus ANG units that participated in Desert Storm or who are currently involved in hot spots around the world. If you want to be able to do more than train in the local MOA, fly at your airline and watch the war on CNN, active duty is going to give you a better shot.

If I hadn't been on active duty, there are some once in a lifetime tactical combat experiences that I never would have had a chance to have. Just my .02

galaxy flyer
08-18-2017, 07:30 AM
^^^^this^^^^

gf

crewdawg
08-18-2017, 10:42 AM
Some random points.

-Enlisted at 17 and got a year of my enlistment out of the way before I even left for basic.

-They paid for all my schooling and up through my CFII...graduated with < $5k in student loans.

-Was fortunate enough to get hired by my squadron to fly Vipers

-Adler is right...which the crap hits the fan the AD goes first.

-Guard fighters are more and more being used for NON-combat "deployments" to sit and do nothing.

-The above mentioned "deployments" are driving guys out. Dudes are sick of spending time away from family and taking large pay cuts to go do NOTHING....especially while there is some action going on.

-QOL will likely be MUCH higher in the Guard. Consistency of one location, no white jet tours, no non-flying gigs, etc... Mostly 4 days work weeks and drill weekend. You'll rarely see the 12-14 hours work days like AD.

-OPS tempo has been constantly creeping up in the Guard. When I first enlisted, we did 30 day deployments, every 24-30 months, with the occasional TDY in between. Now we're doing 100 day deployments, every 19ish months with 3-5 TDYs of 2-3 weeks a piece. Couple that with random conferences and sim trips and it adds up. Many of our hires off AD are quite surprised by how much we're gone. Being a part timer helps, because you can always pass on trips here and there.

-Every single friend of mine from college, that wanted a Guard pilot slot, got one. ALL of them...so don't let the competition factor scare you.

-With the Guard, if you don't make it through training, you have ZERO commitment. So you won't be forced into some non-flying gig.

-Many of my UPT classmates ended up in U-28s or M-28s (out of ENJJPT).

-A few of my other UPT classmates will spend the last few years in a NON flying assignment.

-Lots of dudes at UPT while I was there, ended up in UAVs...

-In the Guard, you'll fly as long as you want. If your squadron switches to UAVs, you can always leave...of course at this point in my career, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Great side gig for airline guys.

-Our squadron is a revolving door or AD guys trying to escape AD. They're burnt out and tired of the BS. Many are highly qualified dudes who are patches or have school slots.

-If you enlist in the Guard, you can still do ROTC or apply to OTS...as long as you're continuing military service (in any of the services), you'll be released from your enlistment. There is some caveat with ROTC and tuition benefits, but it's doable. A fellow crew chief went through ROTC and got an AD pilot spot with no issues.

-I have even seen an enlisted guard guy go to the Academy. You just have to interview with one of your commanders and get recommended. It's a great deal for these guys...if you're into the mostly boys college in Colorado. :D

-Having been enlisted since high school, I will finish my UPT commitment (10 years), with over 17 years of service. I can't tell you how grateful I am that I'll only have 2.5 years left, while all my UPT buddies still have 7-8+ years left. Being able to retire at 37 will be great...especially now that I'm balancing two jobs.

-I was fortunate enough to get hired very early in this airline hiring spree. I have been writing letters for a few FAIPs and a few of my UPT classmates...who are still a year away from getting out. If they're hired right away, they'll be over 3,500-4,000 numbers junior to me.

-Don't overlook the Coast Guard. They have a decent amount of pilots and it seems like it's one of the best kept secrets. Just an opinion after having flown with a few former coasties.

Goodluck in whatever you decide. You really can't go wrong, each choice is filled with it's own awesome adventures.



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