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View Full Version : C-12, Airlines, Both?


MedHawk
08-17-2017, 10:29 AM
Greetings,

Hello all, I am being presented with an opportunity to join a National Guard C-12 unit, and I have a few QOL questions before I pull the trigger (or not) on going back in.

Backstory: Currently in the IRR, 11 years of service before entering IRR. Presently, flying for a regional carrier, married with two kids and trying to keep it that way...

Questions:

- What would be a typical schedule for both Airlines and Guard/Reserve unit?

- How many days off can I expect per month? (I realize this might be relative, just looking for a general ballpark)

- For those who are currently in a Guard/Reserve unit, how do you manage your schedule between airline and unit? (bid long call?)

- Looking forward, would the Majors be more interested in 121 Jet experience or military King Air experience?

Thank you in advance for all advice and information


joepilot
08-17-2017, 12:03 PM
Greetings,

Hello all, I am being presented with an opportunity to join a National Guard C-12 unit, and I have a few QOL questions before I pull the trigger (or not) on going back in.

Backstory: Currently in the IRR, 11 years of service before entering IRR. Presently, flying for a regional carrier, married with two kids and trying to keep it that way...

Questions:

- What would be a typical schedule for both Airlines and Guard/Reserve unit?

- How many days off can I expect per month? (I realize this might be relative, just looking for a general ballpark)

- For those who are currently in a Guard/Reserve unit, how do you manage your schedule between airline and unit? (bid long call?)

- Looking forward, would the Majors be more interested in 121 Jet experience or military King Air experience?

Thank you in advance for all advice and information

Talk to a pilot in the reserves about Military Leave for your drill and flying days. Bottom line is that your civilian job MUST release you with no penalty to go on any military duty. Your military duty may well pay more per day than the regional job. For max pay you would do military duty on your days off from the airline. For max days off, you would prefer to do military duty on days you would otherwise be working for the airline. As a pilot you may have an opportunity to somewhat choose your flying schedule.

Joe

Adlerdriver
08-17-2017, 12:33 PM
Questions:

- What would be a typical schedule for both Airlines and Guard/Reserve unit?

- How many days off can I expect per month? (I realize this might be relative, just looking for a general ballpark)

- For those who are currently in a Guard/Reserve unit, how do you manage your schedule between airline and unit? (bid long call?)

- Looking forward, would the Majors be more interested in 121 Jet experience or military King Air experience?

Thank you in advance for all advice and information
Guard schedules are highly dependent on unit and mission. Some units might have a minimum number of available days they want you to provide for the scheduling shop. The bottom line is you need to stay current and proficient. You would need to speak with someone in the unit for get an idea of typical days per month required to do that. After that, it's up to you how many additional days you keep on your airline schedule. You may choose to drop airline days one for one with guard days some months and go heavy on both jobs other months.

Managing schedules is very dependent on whether you commute or not. Living in domicile and within driving distance of you guard unit gives you outstanding options and flexibility. If you commute to the airline and live in your guard city but can sit long call reserve from home, you may be able to double dip. Ground duty or a quick local sortie with the guard while you're on reserve with the airline. If you're flying a line at the airline, then you may choose to drop trips and stay local with the guard more frequently rather than do a lot of commuting. Lots of options that are very situation dependent. What you really want to avoid is commuting to both jobs. Living near your guard unit is probably the best option if you can't be near both by living in domicile.

My guess is the 121 jet time (especially if you can upgrade) is going to be better for getting on with a major. Some airlines want turbine time to be in aircraft with GW higher than 12,500. I think that rules out most King Airs but you might know better than I.


Sliceback
08-17-2017, 01:51 PM
Write down future resumes, on a projected annual basis, and see which career path you think becomes more competitive faster.

Do you have to go to UPT? That's a 2+ year process. And a lot of military King Air guys appear to need 121 time to be competitive.

Gundriver64
08-17-2017, 03:06 PM
Guard schedules are highly dependent on unit and mission. Some units might have a minimum number of available days they want you to provide for the scheduling shop. The bottom line is you need to stay current and proficient. You would need to speak with someone in the unit for get an idea of typical days per month required to do that. After that, it's up to you how many additional days you keep on your airline schedule. You may choose to drop airline days one for one with guard days some months and go heavy on both jobs other months.

Managing schedules is very dependent on whether you commute or not. Living in domicile and within driving distance of you guard unit gives you outstanding options and flexibility. If you commute to the airline and live in your guard city but can sit long call reserve from home, you may be able to double dip. Ground duty or a quick local sortie with the guard while you're on reserve with the airline. If you're flying a line at the airline, then you may choose to drop trips and stay local with the guard more frequently rather than do a lot of commuting. Lots of options that are very situation dependent. What you really want to avoid is commuting to both jobs. Living near your guard unit is probably the best option if you can't be near both by living in domicile.

My guess is the 121 jet time (especially if you can upgrade) is going to be better for getting on with a major. Some airlines want turbine time to be in aircraft with GW higher than 12,500. I think that rules out most King Airs but you might know better than I.

Depends on the C-12 (e.g., C-12V MGTOW = 14,000). 300-350s even more GWT.

rickair7777
08-17-2017, 03:06 PM
- What would be a typical schedule for both Airlines and Guard/Reserve unit?

- For those who are currently in a Guard/Reserve unit, how do you manage your schedule between airline and unit? (bid long call?)

You tell the airline what days off you need for mil, and they clear your schedule. If you have PBS, it's typically easier to get it pre-assigned before the bid, that way your airline schedule is built around the mil leave. They should give you some virtual credit for the mil leave, ie not try to cram 90 hours of flying into 25 days.

Basically non-issue on the airline side. Mil schedule would depend on unit. Do not commute to both mil and airline jobs, that will suck.


- Looking forward, would the Majors be more interested in 121 Jet experience or military King Air experience?

Both. Diversity of relevant experience is going to be better than more of any one thing. You already have the 121 ticket punched, but do you have previous military flying and what type?

If you don't have mil wings, you *might* get to the majors faster by building 121 time rather than taking a time out for UPT and seasoning, but getting mil wings is going to make your progression to a legacy almost assured and on a more predictable timeline.

If you already have mil FW experience, then you might be better off focusing on 121 flying for now (from a career perspective). Majors know that drilling reserves can drop orders to evade first-year pay and seniority, so you might get hired faster as an ex-mil guy vice a drilling reserve (then join the guard/reserves once you get settled).

MedHawk
08-17-2017, 03:14 PM
I am a former Military Helo driver (UH-60s), not sure how the the Majors look at that. As far as the 121 side, Im looking at being a three year FO due to my low fixed-wing time.

I think the unit that I will be in will not be doing to Odin mission, and will be utilized for the VIP mission. so I am guessing it will not be the C-12V model.

As far as UPT is concerned the unit is an Army Guard unit so I would only need to attend the Army Fixed Wing course, which i believe is around 2.5 months.

I would be commuting to both the airline job (2.5hr drive) and the unit in question (2hr drive)...

rickair7777
08-17-2017, 03:30 PM
I am a former Military Helo driver (UH-60s), not sure how the the Majors look at that. As far as the 121 side, Im looking at being a three year FO due to my low fixed-wing time.

I think the unit that I will be in will not be doing to Odin mission, and will be utilized for the VIP mission. so I am guessing it will not be the C-12V model.

As far as UPT is concerned, I am a former Army H-60 pilot, and the unit is an Army Guard unit so I would only need to attend the Army Fixed Wing course, which i believe is around 2.5 months.

Majors will give you full credit for your mil flying background once you acquire a certain number of FW hours (from any source). I've seen numerous navy helo people in the reserve world getting on with legacies after 1-2 years at a regional, same for rusty pointy-nose types.

I suspect it would be about a wash as far as the civilian career goes, although more type ratings never hurt.

MedHawk
08-17-2017, 03:37 PM
same for rusty pointy-nose types.

haha, I thought they never get rusty :D

Gundriver64
08-17-2017, 03:39 PM
To the Original Poster,

I am flying full time with one of the VIP Reserve C-12V/UC35 units (IP & ASO). JOSAC out of Scott AFB schedules all of our missions for the VIP flights (callsign PAT). Many of our missions are LONG days (both duty and scheduled flight time). Bidding long call reserve isn't feasible. Not only because of the flights, but also because there would be duty day conflicts. Your airline duty counts against military duty day. At least in the USAR it does. The flying is very rewarding and we fly both domestically & globally (not just in the ME). The C-12 course is 3+ months long and it's very good. Especially, the APS LOC-I training now done in the GROB 120TP. You do a lot of EP training in the actual aircraft that civilian King Air pilots only do in a sim. You mentioned the Guard and you might qualify for the Guard FWAATS course in WV through your 121 experience. I think it's around 3 weeks long. But there's very few slots per year with that course.

Good Luck!
G

ArmyFW
08-21-2017, 08:28 AM
Does it feel like doing both makes either one overwhelming?

Duesenflieger
08-24-2017, 05:32 PM
Which fixed-wing army guard aviation regiments hire civilians off the street? Or is prior guard service in a non-pilot capacity required prior to being able to apply for army FW guard/reserve slots?

A330FoodCritic
08-24-2017, 10:57 PM
Do the C-12 gig, good to have a back up plan.

Don't let your employer push you around, mine tried, things got real nasty.

I am a Seahawk/King Air guy who is now a lazy Bus guy, soon to be 787 guy.

Gundriver64
08-25-2017, 04:11 AM
Which fixed-wing army guard aviation regiments hire civilians off the street? Or is prior guard service in a non-pilot capacity required prior to being able to apply for army FW guard/reserve slots?

Most fixed-wing Guard/Reserve units bring on guys from within.

Cheers,
G

nateman06
09-17-2018, 07:58 PM
Hey guys, first time poster here...Found this thread and wanted to bring it back.

A little about myself to preface my question:

I'm a Army NG warrant of 5 years, looking to make the fixed wing transition. After talking with some colleagues, I think my best option would be to transfer to the reserves, due to the higher volume of fixed wing aircraft, as compared to individual guard units. I would like to stay close to NC if possible, so i assume the ft Bragg unit would be ideal. Im also not opposed to Denver/ colorado springs area. I heard that the Los Alaminos unit might be relocating there, but havent heard anything concrete. I am participating in the rotor transition program on the civilian side, and have already signed on board with a regional. My time building and ratings are complete, so I just need to go to IOT. I have approx. 850TT, 600 rotor, 250 FW. I'm a PC on the military side.

My question is somewhat two folded. What is the availability looking like for FW warrants on the reserve side? Is there someone that could point me in the right direction, for getting the possess started? I unfortunately do not have any contacts on the FW side of the house. My father is a retired aviator from the army FW community, but he's been retired for 10+ years, and no longer knows anyone in those units.

If there is anyone that knows something about the process, and would be willing to extend some mentorship, i would greatly appreciate it.

Gundriver64
09-18-2018, 01:17 AM
Hey guys, first time poster here...Found this thread and wanted to bring it back.

A little about myself to preface my question:

I'm a Army NG warrant of 5 years, looking to make the fixed wing transition. After talking with some colleagues, I think my best option would be to transfer to the reserves, due to the higher volume of fixed wing aircraft, as compared to individual guard units. I would like to stay close to NC if possible, so i assume the ft Bragg unit would be ideal. Im also not opposed to Denver/ colorado springs area. I heard that the Los Alaminos unit might be relocating there, but havent heard anything concrete. I am participating in the rotor transition program on the civilian side, and have already signed on board with a regional. My time building and ratings are complete, so I just need to go to IOT. I have approx. 850TT, 600 rotor, 250 FW. I'm a PC on the military side.

My question is somewhat two folded. What is the availability looking like for FW warrants on the reserve side? Is there someone that could point me in the right direction, for getting the possess started? I unfortunately do not have any contacts on the FW side of the house. My father is a retired aviator from the army FW community, but he's been retired for 10+ years, and no longer knows anyone in those units.

If there is anyone that knows something about the process, and would be willing to extend some mentorship, i would greatly appreciate it.

All of the USAR FW units are currently overstrength with TPU aviators. The exception are UC-35 qualified TPU pilots. Bragg has recently downsized by moving the UC-35s to Joint Base MDL. The Los Alamitos move to Peterson has been on the fence for years. The COAs that I recently heard is that the unit will stay in CA or move to Joint Base Carswell.

nateman06
09-18-2018, 04:53 AM
All of the USAR FW units are currently overstrength with TPU aviators. The exception are UC-35 qualified TPU pilots. Bragg has recently downsized by moving the UC-35s to Joint Base MDL. The Los Alamitos move to Peterson has been on the fence for years. The COAs that I recently heard is that the unit will stay in CA or move to Joint Base Carswell.

Thanks for the quick response. I didnt realize they moved the uc-35s up north. They've been at Bragg for years.

Well, seems like the pilot shortage hasn't yet made its way to army FW. Not what I was hoping to hear, but good to know how it is straight up. If there was a chance of getting in, what do you think would help that chance?

Should I call the unit, and express interest in a position there? I dont want to come across as too persistant, or annoying. Im a very chill easy going guy to get along with, so i dont foresee there being a personality issue and being able to fit in. Just trying to figure out the next step without burning it. I very much appreciate the advice.

Gundriver64
09-18-2018, 07:24 AM
Thanks for the quick response. I didnt realize they moved the uc-35s up north. They've been at Bragg for years.

Well, seems like the pilot shortage hasn't yet made its way to army FW. Not what I was hoping to hear, but good to know how it is straight up. If there was a chance of getting in, what do you think would help that chance?

Should I call the unit, and express interest in a position there? I dont want to come across as too persistant, or annoying. Im a very chill easy going guy to get along with, so i dont foresee there being a personality issue and being able to fit in. Just trying to figure out the next step without burning it. I very much appreciate the advice.

Contact Army Reserve Careers Division (ARCD) through HRC, That's the proper channel for accessions.

PurpleToolBox
09-19-2018, 01:48 AM
Greetings,

Hello all, I am being presented with an opportunity to join a National Guard C-12 unit, and I have a few QOL questions before I pull the trigger (or not) on going back in.

Backstory: Currently in the IRR, 11 years of service before entering IRR. Presently, flying for a regional carrier, married with two kids and trying to keep it that way...

Questions:

- What would be a typical schedule for both Airlines and Guard/Reserve unit?

- How many days off can I expect per month? (I realize this might be relative, just looking for a general ballpark)

- For those who are currently in a Guard/Reserve unit, how do you manage your schedule between airline and unit? (bid long call?)

- Looking forward, would the Majors be more interested in 121 Jet experience or military King Air experience?

Thank you in advance for all advice and information

Before you go telling your current company to pack sand, there's one BIG issue that a lot of folks who leave the service forget about.

What was your rank when you left active duty? If you were an O-3, you probably can not serve as your record met the board twice and was passed over. Yes, your record meets the board even when in the IRR. Don't ask me how or why.

All I know is my reserve unit has been screwed over many times now by returning O-3s. They join the unit, and then a few months after the CC gets a letter of separation due to being twice deferred.

Giving the current climate with the pilot shortage, anything is possible.

I personally know three people this affected. They could never serve again.

rickair7777
09-19-2018, 07:16 AM
Before you go telling your current company to pack sand, there's one BIG issue that a lot of folks who leave the service forget about.

What was your rank when you left active duty? If you were an O-3, you probably can not serve as your record met the board twice and was passed over. Yes, your record meets the board even when in the IRR. Don't ask me how or why.

All I know is my reserve unit has been screwed over many times now by returning O-3s. They join the unit, and then a few months after the CC gets a letter of separation due to being twice deferred.

Giving the current climate with the pilot shortage, anything is possible.

I personally know three people this affected. They could never serve again.

This is a real issue, but policies vary between services.

The Navy will discharge you from the (regular) IRR if you FOS x2. They would not let you affiliate in a SELRES/TR status.

If you join the reserves from AD, even with x2 FOS, your counter gets reset, and you get two looks in the reserves.

If you have a gap of time in the IRR and affiliate as a SELRES/TR then they give you one grace year to build a track record before going to the board, even if you're at your year-group eligibility zone.

So the Navy tries to manage the problem. I'm aware of other services which don't, so you need to do your research and I assume it could even vary by state for the guard.