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Sam York
08-31-2017, 11:52 AM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.


Al Czervik
08-31-2017, 12:14 PM
Nope, we'll fly them at mainline. PERIOD.

Shrek
08-31-2017, 12:16 PM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.
Hope is NOT a plan son - lol

Ain't gunna happen.


StrykerB21
08-31-2017, 12:16 PM
Victor Vieria is in for a rude awakening.

mainlineAF
08-31-2017, 12:20 PM
[email protected] embraer

80ktsClamp
08-31-2017, 12:32 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/alliedpilots/status/903327446270926850

trip
08-31-2017, 12:43 PM
How did that "Hope and Change" work out?

AboveMins
08-31-2017, 12:58 PM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.

Sam, as a regional pilot, I fully stand behind your mainline pilot groups recovering as much flying as humanly possible. Looking forward to seeing the regionals crumble, creating better opportunities at mainline.

AC560
08-31-2017, 01:12 PM
Looking forward to seeing the regionals crumble, creating better opportunities at mainline.

Why don't you just create a better opportunities where you are at.

tom11011
08-31-2017, 01:19 PM
Why don't you just create a better opportunities where you are at.

That's a good idea :confused:

AboveMins
08-31-2017, 01:22 PM
Why don't you just create a better opportunities where you are at.

So, keeping the regionals on life support is considered a better opportunity than moving up to a mainline carrier?


... What are you smoking? I want some!

Mesabah
08-31-2017, 01:45 PM
Why not just build an E170-E2 at 86,000lbs @76seats? Mainline pilots would have to give up range, weight, and seat limits to get the E175E2 to the regional, even getting one of those concessions is a pipe-dream.

Allegheny
08-31-2017, 03:57 PM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.


Embraer is pinning its hopes on an easing of regional jet weight limits during the next round of pilot contract negotiations at the US mainline carriers, as it looks for an in for its E-Jet E2 family.

In slightly over 12 months I will end my career as an airline pilot, (age 65). When I hired on at US Airways the regional jet did not exist. The 75 /85 seat jet class was a mainline jet. FK-28, BAC-111, and the BAE-146. We had all three and although they paid less, these were mainline aircraft. I flew PIT-ERI, PIT-AVP, DCA-ROC-PIT-IND-SDF-PIT-TOL, etc. etc on the DC-9 and Fokker F-28. Most of those stations are now regional only.



Other than deregulation itself, there has been no greater change to the industry than that cause by scope relief. The RJ and its association scope relief have devastated the careers of both mainline and regional pilots. If you give one more inch on scope you will see the unraveling of your hopes and dreams of working for a mainline carrier.


ALPA is totally behind the 8-ball on this situation. ALPA and APA are spending all their time and efforts on defeating Norwegian and Gulf carriers. Where are they on the pilot shortage? Why is ALPA not deeply involved in defending the profession from the “bottom up”. The United States Marines have a saying; and it is really a motto. “Loyalty down leads to loyalty up.” They want all hands on deck defending "wide-body" jobs, while only paying lip service to the regional sector.


The current pilot shortage represents the perfect opportunity for ALPA to spend some capital on the bottom end of the pilot profession. Maintain and if possible raise the standards of the pilot profession. Remember, loyalty down leads to loyalty up. Be more active on training and qualification at the basic level and ensure that ALPA check airman and other qualified individuals are working the ATP-CTP schools and training. Write the curriculum for training low time pilots to become airline qualified. If you are not in the room when the regulations are being written then you are not part of the solution. The RAA is writing the new Regs.



I attended several conferences hosted by the UAA, University Aviation Association, and other organizations. They are hell-bent or removing the 1500 hour requirement. Embry Riddle and the University of North Dakota are writing the research and doing the work to replace the 1500 hour requirement with a new standard. Who is funding it? The Regional Aircraft Association, RAA.


The dream of the RAA, is the removal of the 1500 hour requirement, and total scope elimination. Then they could fill their new 120+ jet seats with 250 hour Riddle Rangers and the like. Good-by narrow body mainline fleet.

rickair7777
08-31-2017, 03:59 PM
Why don't you just create a better opportunities where you are at.

In the regional system? Good luck with that...

rickair7777
08-31-2017, 04:01 PM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.

This has been embraer's plan for a number of years...assume those pesky labor issues would get resolved in time for them to sell their airplanes. Hopefully not this time.

mainlineAF
08-31-2017, 04:36 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/alliedpilots/status/903327446270926850



APA for the win.

awax
08-31-2017, 05:08 PM
APA for the win.

:D exactly. Good luck with that.

The maximum number of seats (76) on feeder aircraft and UAL currently operating with the maximum number of 153 76 RJs. In order to add additional 76 seat aircraft, the company must add a new fleet of specifically CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft flown by mainline pilots. IF they were to add the new fleet, 76 seat RJs may be added on a 1:1.25 ratio (4 RJs for every 5 new mainline aircraft).

The 175-E2 isn't a CS100, E190 or E195. So Embraer's hopes for the E2 are moot at UAL. Management currently has all the tools they need (pun intended) to raise the number of allowable 76 seat aircraft. All they have to do is open the checkbook and buy a new fleet type.

Eagle06
08-31-2017, 05:18 PM
The United CBA does address weight. 1-L-29.

awax
08-31-2017, 05:40 PM
The United CBA does address weight. 1-L-29.

Thanks, I'd missed that. The previous point is still valid though.

Dolphinflyer
09-01-2017, 06:27 AM
Not being a "Chicken Little", but we should all be aware of the possibility of the US Government Executive and Judicial branches sticking their noses in our fight in support of Embraer, Bombardier and Mitsubishi.

Consider all of the angles in a fight.

Lemons
09-01-2017, 06:30 AM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.

The ejets are crap anyway. Better than a crj but infirior to the c series

Lemons
09-01-2017, 06:34 AM
And it starts/continues....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-hopes-for-easing-of-us-scope-weight-limits-f-440722/

NOPE, not even as a replacement one for one of the current allowed 170/175's or CRJ's.

They want them bad enough. We will fly them at the mainline and create more mainline jobs. 747 to J-3 cub. It should all be one list.

Someone will do it and that someone will be the pilots at Delta because they always are the ones to bend over first.

full of luv
09-01-2017, 07:07 AM
Someone will do it and that someone will be the pilots at Delta because they always are the ones to bend over first.

Delta already has an E-175 rate and were about to get some on mainline when the C-series deal made them punt on the used E-jets that Boeing was trying to pawn off on them with a 737 deal.

full of luv
09-01-2017, 07:09 AM
Not being a "Chicken Little", but we should all be aware of the possibility of the US Government Executive and Judicial branches sticking their noses in our fight in support of Embraer, Bombardier and Mitsubishi.

Consider all of the angles in a fight.

There is NOTHING preventing ANY company from buying FLEETS and FLEETS of jets from those companies. Just operate them under the auspices of the current CBA for said company. Why does a jet need a pilot at 1/3 the cost of the going rate to be palatable. If those jets are profitable, they will be with a $180/$100 /hr crew.

Dolphinflyer
09-01-2017, 07:17 AM
There is NOTHING preventing ANY company from buying FLEETS and FLEETS of jets from those companies. Just operate them under the auspices of the current CBA for said company. Why does a jet need a pilot at 1/3 the cost of the going rate to be palatable. If those jets are profitable, they will be with a $180/$100 /hr crew.

Agreed, that wasn't my point which was be aware of attacks on our scope clauses from all directions. They've spent over $1 Billion to develop these turds. They aren't going to roll over with the "hope" that we change our minds.

Spudhauler
09-01-2017, 07:36 AM
Delta already has an E-175 rate and were about to get some on mainline when the C-series deal made them punt on the used E-jets that Boeing was trying to pawn off on them with a 737 deal.

This is completely inaccurate. We had a TA with 190s which we voted down. Shortly after we had an agreement on a second TA, which did not include 190s, the company purchased the C-series. 175s were never coming to mainline and the rejection of the original TA is what prompted the punting on the 190s.

jcountry
09-01-2017, 07:47 AM
If our crap union caves on that, I really think some parking lot parties would occur.

People have absolutely had it with their limp-wristed representation.

they damn well better hold this line

Salukipilot4590
09-01-2017, 07:49 AM
This is completely inaccurate. We had a TA with 190s which we voted down. Shortly after we had an agreement on a second TA, which did not include 190s, the company purchased the C-series. 175s were never coming to mainline and the rejection of the original TA is what prompted the punting on the 190s.

Hmm I didn't know that!

http://i.imgur.com/htiX4n6.gif

jcountry
09-01-2017, 08:05 AM
I think we ALL need to write our reps and let them know that scope is an absolute red line for us.

We need to advise them how unacceptable any movement on that issue would be.

JetDoc
09-01-2017, 08:41 AM
In the regional system? Good luck with that...

Yeah, his ignorance on how the regional sector works is rather frightening.

Lemons
09-01-2017, 08:53 AM
Delta already has an E-175 rate and were about to get some on mainline when the C-series deal made them punt on the used E-jets that Boeing was trying to pawn off on them with a 737 deal.

delta always seems to be the first one to cave on scope. It's been that way for the past 15 years.

ORDinary
09-01-2017, 09:42 AM
"I will hope, over time, to convince all the pilots that more large regional jets is actually in all of our best interests," United president Scott Kirby told employees in May.


He is unhinged.

Otterbox
09-01-2017, 10:04 AM
"I will hope, over time, to convince all the pilots that more large regional jets is actually in all of our best interests," United president Scott Kirby told employees in May.


He is unhinged.

Kirby never met an RJ that he didn't like...

Kirby is already forecasting managements #1 goal during the next several rounds of contract negotiations. Don't underestimate him. He's highly intelligent and already got a $ in mind that he thinks it'll cost him to make favorable contracts to management to pass by 51%.

pete2800
09-01-2017, 10:16 AM
Why don't you just create a better opportunities where you are at.

The only thing a regional airline can do to create a 'better opportunity' for pilots is to cease to exist.

Seriously. The more dead regionals, the better off we all are.

AboveMins
09-01-2017, 11:46 AM
The only thing a regional airline can do to create a 'better opportunity' for pilots is to cease to exist.

Seriously. The more dead regionals, the better off we all are.

This. (filler)

WhiskeyDelta
09-01-2017, 03:13 PM
Someone will do it and that someone will be the pilots at Delta because they always are the ones to bend over first.

No idea if your statement is fact. Regardless, we held the line on regional scope last year. The old guard generally loathes their actions on RJ scope gives in the 90s and are determined to not make the same mistake again. The RJ guys getting hired, too, don't want more of the very jets they suffered in for decades.

labbats
09-01-2017, 03:23 PM
The fact remains that too many previous regional pilots work at legacy airlines to ever allow loosening of scope.

I'm not certain Embraer execs view this board but if so google translate should be useful.

jcountry
09-01-2017, 08:04 PM
The fact remains that too many previous regional pilots work at legacy airlines to ever allow loosening of scope.

I'm not certain Embraer execs view this board but if so google translate should be useful.

Yes.

Maybe they can throw

SUCK MY BALLS

On in and see what Portuguese that spits out.

John Carr
09-01-2017, 08:46 PM
Yes.

Maybe they can throw

SUCK MY BALLS

On in and see what Portuguese that spits out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jdsx4zMeB4

sailingfun
09-02-2017, 03:14 AM
delta always seems to be the first one to cave on scope. It's been that way for the past 15 years.

Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

GogglesPisano
09-02-2017, 06:23 AM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

Sailing for a mic drop.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9DPhONuz1SpCONiM/giphy.gif

Jet Jockey 00
09-02-2017, 06:53 AM
We need to be doing the opposite brining 175s to mainline. It's horrible that we are flying former mainline routes with E-jets. I guess we can go back to the regionals and fly E-jets when mainline gets furloughed in the next downturn.

full of luv
09-02-2017, 08:45 AM
We need to be doing the opposite brining 175s to mainline. It's horrible that we are flying former mainline routes with E-jets. I guess we can go back to the regionals and fly E-jets when mainline gets furloughed in the next downturn.

Well the makers of what use to be the smaller narrowbody aircraft 737/A319 have decided to stretch them to the point that they are the same size (pax wise) as original 757's so it leaves a big gap in the smaller markets that don't support that kind of traffic.
Ideally ALL flying would be at mainline from Q-400's up, but short of that the legacy pilots need to keep and expand as much flying under mainline contract as possible.

AboveMins
09-02-2017, 11:44 AM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

It's the double breasted uniform... Duh. Seriously though, my hat's off to you guys. You actually care about running an airline.

itsmytime
09-02-2017, 01:12 PM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

Boom! Goes the dynamite!

80ktsClamp
09-02-2017, 02:16 PM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.


... and sailingfun comes in with the kill shot!

Trip7
09-03-2017, 08:36 AM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

My goodness Sailing, that guy had a family #Headshot

Al Czervik
09-03-2017, 08:55 AM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

Delta also has the highest number of joint ventures. This is costing delta WB positions. Your main job growth right now is small NB (also smallest pay band). This is an excellent opportunity for hiring and upgrades but is coming at a cost.

Jet Jockey 00
09-03-2017, 09:15 AM
Delta also has the highest number of joint ventures. This is costing delta WB positions. Your main job growth right now is small NB (also smallest pay band). This is an excellent opportunity for hiring and upgrades but is coming at a cost.


In the past we sold scope for money when Airbus CA were paid 125$ an hour. Now money is not the issue but actual mainline jobs. We have tons of Ejets at the regionals flying former mainline routes of NB. And as you pointed out NB jobs are going to be the future of growth.

At least Delta is actually creating more mainline jobs with the C series. Hopefully United will follow but you know Kirby loves those Regional Jets.

Sam York
09-03-2017, 10:55 AM
I can't believe you guys are turning this into a dick measuring contest. Group1, group4 whatever. Let's just not give away anymore mainline pilot positions.

Mesabah
09-03-2017, 12:55 PM
Still, from a customer standpoint, the Ejets are the best NB aircraft to fly on. The Cseries will soon be a close second. That said, Embraer will quickly find itself out of the US market if they don't get the the E2 jets down to the scope limits. Mainlines are dumping the E190s, as it makes more economic sense to buy extra 73s, or A320s, than an extra limited fleet type.

Lemons
09-03-2017, 02:55 PM
Yet somehow we are the only airline bringing lots of 100 seat jets to the mainline and have out hired everyone by a big margin.

That doesn't negate the history.

80ktsClamp
09-04-2017, 12:21 AM
That doesn't negate the history.

Said historical trend was reversed about 5 years ago... sharply. If you want to be 5 years behind the times, that's fine, but don't double down on a foolish statement or the hole is just going to get deeper. :cool:

BeechPilot33
09-04-2017, 07:00 AM
That doesn't negate the history.

history like we used to fly BE99's as regional AC and now its an 86,000 GTOW dual class Jet thats flying mainline routes.

trip
09-04-2017, 02:09 PM
The Cseries will soon be a close second.
And it will stay second with a middle seat.

rickair7777
09-04-2017, 03:43 PM
Still, from a customer standpoint, the Ejets are the best NB aircraft to fly on. The Cseries will soon be a close second. That said, Embraer will quickly find itself out of the US market if they don't get the the E2 jets down to the scope limits. Mainlines are dumping the E190s, as it makes more economic sense to buy extra 73s, or A320s, than an extra limited fleet type.


Pilots should be worried if mainline management wants E2's at the regionals badly...they might find a way.

But I wouldn't lose too much sleep over what embrear or mitsubishi managers want. They are the tail that can't wag the dog, and they may be talking fast right now as they come to the horrible realization that they badly miscalculated the ease with which US labor groups could be forced to roll over for their whims. They may be re-evaluating their business cases with the US airlines removed (won't be pretty).

Mesabah
09-04-2017, 04:23 PM
Pilots should be worried if mainline management wants E2's at the regionals badly...they might find a way.
Yes, but keeping mainline pilots happy is the #1 priority of management, especially now that they can afford to pay them $500+/hr.

Lemons
09-04-2017, 05:18 PM
Still, from a customer standpoint, the Ejets are the best NB aircraft to fly on. The Cseries will soon be a close second. That said, Embraer will quickly find itself out of the US market if they don't get the the E2 jets down to the scope limits. Mainlines are dumping the E190s, as it makes more economic sense to buy extra 73s, or A320s, than an extra limited fleet type.

an 190 is just as crappy as an e175. It's just longer.
No overhead space narrow seats and those vents on the side that blow air on your head.

Lemons
09-04-2017, 05:19 PM
history like we used to fly BE99's as regional AC and now its an 86,000 GTOW dual class Jet thats flying mainline routes.

and what airline always led the way in getting bigger and heavier a/c for their regionals?

da42pilot
09-04-2017, 05:40 PM
If management wants to fly those planes so badly, why not propose to bring all large RJs in house and on the same seniority list? Even if pay remains at the levels SkyWest pays, it still shrinks the regional airlines and adds pilots to mainline seniority lists.

da42pilot
09-04-2017, 05:41 PM
an 190 is just as crappy as an e175. It's just longer.
No overhead space narrow seats and those vents on the side that blow air on your head.

The ejets are more comfortable than even an Airbus. I'm not sure why you're so negative about them.

Hard to beat no middle seats.

sailingfun
09-05-2017, 11:52 AM
If management wants to fly those planes so badly, why not propose to bring all large RJs in house and on the same seniority list? Even if pay remains at the levels SkyWest pays, it still shrinks the regional airlines and adds pilots to mainline seniority lists.

Delta is doing that however there is a economic break point where your cost per seat mile gets to high with mainline costs especially if your competitors don't follow suit. Delta management feels that point is around 100 seats. AMR and UAL feel it's higher. Regardless in the end this is a business and the nature of business is it's ruthless and cutthroat. I had a economics professor who often repeated this. "Give me a 5% cost advantage over a competitor and I will crush them every time!". Read about the history of the automobile industry in the US. There are a lot of comparisons with the current airline situation.

Speedbird2263
09-05-2017, 01:26 PM
an 190 is just as crappy as an e175. It's just longer.
No overhead space narrow seats and those vents on the side that blow air on your head.

E190 seats are some of the widest seats on average in the industry. The average 737 economy seat is 17.2" wide, A320 is 18" and the E 175/190 is 18.25". For reference a CRJ-200 is listed as 17" wide. Overhead bin space I understand however as it pertains to economy class, those seats are wider than the seats on any currently flying 10 abreast 777 or 9 abreast 787.

jcountry
09-05-2017, 06:13 PM
If our union caves on this, I swear to God I will go to a BOD meeting and take a literal **** on the podium

JamesNoBrakes
09-05-2017, 09:17 PM
E190 seats are some of the widest seats on average in the industry. The average 737 economy seat is 17.2" wide, A320 is 18" and the E 175/190 is 18.25". For reference a CRJ-200 is listed as 17" wide. Overhead bin space I understand however as it pertains to economy class, those seats are wider than the seats on any currently flying 10 abreast 777 or 9 abreast 787.

Hehe, rode in one carrier's E-jet halfway across the country a few weeks ago. Didn't know anyone was actually making seat-pitches that small anymore. Talk about crammed...Wider seats don't make up for it. It really just depends on what the airline wants to put in there for the most part.

Dolphinflyer
09-06-2017, 05:43 AM
If our union caves on this, I swear to God I will go to a BOD meeting and take a literal **** on the podium

If it's my union, you'll have to be careful stepping over the chairs I throw up there.

galaxy flyer
09-06-2017, 06:03 AM
As I said many times in Montreal, "you all designed a plane (C-Series) that's too big for regionals (scope) and too small for mainline". Then skulked back to the business aircraft side.

GF

Speedbird2263
09-06-2017, 12:17 PM
It really just depends on what the airline wants to put in there for the most part.

Indeed it does.

Skittles9E
09-06-2017, 05:08 PM
If our union caves on this, I swear to God I will go to a BOD meeting and take a literal **** on the podium

This made me laugh way more than it should...



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