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View Full Version : Southwest flying to Hawaii....


Thunder1
09-21-2017, 02:59 PM
It's coming, I expect the official announcement no later than mid-October.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4107459-crash-ahead-hawaiian-airlines-stock-southwest-market-entry-may-imminent

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/09/19/is-southwest-airlinesgearing-up-for-flights-to.html


UAL T38 Phlyer
09-21-2017, 03:04 PM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

ground stop
09-21-2017, 03:48 PM
Bwi-sea?
...


Dodo
09-21-2017, 03:50 PM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......
Oh, stop! I almost peed myself!

SkyNation
09-21-2017, 04:34 PM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

you can kill the time with a movie...for $5

.....or watch one of like 8 channels......

....and no built in way to charge your phone/tablet

Smooth at FL450
09-21-2017, 06:48 PM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

Or just eat the food that we somehow managed to find before departing...like we already do. Pax don't seem to mind if the price is right.

e6bpilot
09-22-2017, 02:23 AM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......



Sounds like BWI-LAX.

TransWorld
09-22-2017, 04:46 AM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

But at least the FA will give the PAX a second bag of peanuts.

RJSAviator76
09-22-2017, 05:23 AM
Sounds like BWI-LAX.

SJO-LAX is a tad longer... usually around 6 hours block, kinda like the westbound Hawaii flight.

Pogey Bait
09-22-2017, 06:14 AM
It's coming, I expect the official announcement no later than mid-October.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4107459-crash-ahead-hawaiian-airlines-stock-southwest-market-entry-may-imminent

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/09/19/is-southwest-airlinesgearing-up-for-flights-to.html

Are you guys going through ETOPS certification with the Feds currently? Or are you guys already certified?

ecam
09-22-2017, 07:38 AM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

For half the price of the same ticket on United! :D

AboveMins
09-22-2017, 08:09 AM
Enjoy five hours with a soda, peanuts, and stand-up......

And you can travel light without the riot gear. ;)

e6bpilot
09-22-2017, 09:19 AM
For half the price of the same ticket on United! :D



SWA prices are not lower than the legacy airlines. You get a better value IMO for an economy seat, but they are definitely not priced lower for most itineraries.

NikeBuddy
09-22-2017, 09:44 AM
Most people I interact with on SWA don't get cheaper fares. They ride them for the atmosphere, the culture, and the friendliness. Not paying for luggage helps too. Overall, if the price is the same and you could fly AA or SWA, many will choose some LUV.

ZapBrannigan
09-22-2017, 11:04 AM
Heck, I work here and if the price is the same (including luggage fees) I'll be on an airline that offers assigned seating!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Otterbox
09-22-2017, 12:28 PM
It's coming, I expect the official announcement no later than mid-October.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4107459-crash-ahead-hawaiian-airlines-stock-southwest-market-entry-may-imminent

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/09/19/is-southwest-airlinesgearing-up-for-flights-to.html

Right in time to compete with HAL's expansion...

Maui Now : Hawaiian Airlines Ramps Up Hiring (http://mauinow.com/2017/09/17/hawaiian-airlines-ramps-up-hiring/#.WcUEJeieIyk.facebook)

e6bpilot
09-22-2017, 12:32 PM
I prefer to fly us too, mainly because I like that I can check a bag and not worry about getting charged and if the price drops I can get an adjustment. It has nothing to do with atmosphere or service.
I just booked my daughters ticket home for thanksgiving. She is flying out on us and back on AA because flying a red eye back was $300 cheaper and gives her an extra day at home. SWA didnít have that option.
I donít really care about assigned seating, but I do early bird Check-In so I factor that into my price comparison.

WHACKMASTER
09-22-2017, 12:42 PM
Quit yer b1tchin' about the lack of food! "Just grab a muffin'" :D

full of luv
09-22-2017, 01:06 PM
SWA prices are not lower than the legacy airlines. You get a better value IMO for an economy seat, but they are definitely not priced lower for most itineraries.

Actually, from ATL they are often quite a bit lower than what Delta is ever offering. I've purchased more tickets on SWA over the last few years from ATL than any other airline, by a large factor, and I don't even live in ATL.

SWA often seems to mitigate their prices for the last few seats where the legacies seem to have software that wrings out the last nickel when seats start getting scarce.
It will be nearly full flight on SWA and they will still sell seats for $269 one way where as Delta wants over $500 for a ticket that could have been had for $225 a few weeks ahead.

e6bpilot
09-22-2017, 01:49 PM
Actually, from ATL they are often quite a bit lower than what Delta is ever offering. I've purchased more tickets on SWA over the last few years from ATL than any other airline, by a large factor, and I don't even live in ATL.

SWA often seems to mitigate their prices for the last few seats where the legacies seem to have software that wrings out the last nickel when seats start getting scarce.
It will be nearly full flight on SWA and they will still sell seats for $269 one way where as Delta wants over $500 for a ticket that could have been had for $225 a few weeks ahead.



The ATL is an exception. SWA is still in growth mode and trying to squeeze Delta. Delta took the 717s from the Tran, flew them out of the same gates on the same routes, and is making a mint with them. Meanwhile, SWA just stagnated in Atlanta and grew Dallas and international.
I have noticed a slow uptick in Atlanta flying, full planes that used to be mostly empty out of there, and the crew base has slowly grown by about 100 pilots.
It is almost impossible to nonrev out of there anymore. My daughter got stuck there 5 deep on the standby list with one seat showing open and I ran into the same thing as you, a $149 last ticket on the airplane that was bought 30 minutes prior to push. Delta wanted over $400.

RckyMtHigh
09-22-2017, 02:34 PM
Heck, I work here and if the price is the same (including luggage fees) I'll be on an airline that offers assigned seating!

Especially if I'm taking my family on a 6 hour flight to Hawaii. I want assigned seats with power.

ecam
09-23-2017, 07:42 AM
Allegiant used to fly to Hawaii from several west coast cities in 757s holding 220. No food, no power plugs, no internet. And they were almost full every day. But the tickets were pretty cheap, and no one seemed to mind.

Isn't that why there's a Quiznos and a convenience store in the airport?

ZapBrannigan
09-23-2017, 08:37 AM
Allegiant used to fly to Hawaii from several west coast cities in 757s holding 220. No food, no power plugs, no internet. And they were almost full every day. But the tickets were pretty cheap, and no one seemed to mind.



Isn't that why there's a Quiznos and a convenience store in the airport?



Guess the question is, who do you want to compete with? Legacies with assigned seating, IFE, meals, clubs?

LCCs like JetBlue or Virgin with Mint class, lie flat seats, gourmet food, satellite tv, high speed internet?

Or the ultra LCCs that are nothing more than a seat and a $5 bag of peanuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Packrat
09-23-2017, 08:55 AM
Allegiant used to fly to Hawaii from several west coast cities in 757s holding 220. No food, no power plugs, no internet. And they were almost full every day. But the tickets were pretty cheap, and no one seemed to mind.

Except for the people that got stranded there when the 757 broke down. And it wasn't for a day because Allegiant only went there 2 or 3 times a week.

It was a disaster.

e6bpilot
09-23-2017, 12:30 PM
Guess the question is, who do you want to compete with? Legacies with assigned seating, IFE, meals, clubs?

LCCs like JetBlue or Virgin with Mint class, lie flat seats, gourmet food, satellite tv, high speed internet?

Or the ultra LCCs that are nothing more than a seat and a $5 bag of peanuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think we are trying to fit somewhere in the middle. This is all supposition, but I suspect we will fly full airplanes and make money on the product we have now. We have a pretty good customer base that appreciates the non nickel and dime aspect of our product. Itís all about expectation. If you know what you are getting into then you arenít disappointed. The flight attendants will continue to make peanut crowns and sling drinks with a smile and a joke, our commercials will continue to air during football on Sunday, and I will keep getting paid on the 5th and 20th.
Other than the nonrev opportunities, I really donít care about Hawaii. Iíve been there before. Itís ok, but it isnít that great without someone to enjoy it with.

Peacock
09-23-2017, 06:15 PM
The Hawaii idea apparently is more about people being able to be frequent fliers and use their points to get to Hawaii more than actually making money off Hawaii routes. Hopefully both

Smooth at FL450
09-23-2017, 09:48 PM
The Hawaii idea apparently is more about people being able to be frequent fliers and use their points to get to Hawaii more than actually making money off Hawaii routes. Hopefully both

Wouldn't surprise me. In order to have enough points to take your family to Hawaii, you have to buy a lot of tickets throughout the rest of the network.

e6bpilot
09-24-2017, 07:02 AM
I have actually heard that as a reason that we donít fly to Hawaii ie ďit will all be rapid rewards bookings and we wonít make moneyĒ since RR seats are always available as long as there are seats for sale.
I think it is BS. They set the RR rates based on how they think a flight will sell in order to entice RR members to burn points. I deadheaded next to a family whose dad had accumulated over 1M RR points in business travel and was burning over 300k on one trip for two generations to go to Aruba.
Of course reward travelers are going to burn points on leisure destinations, itís just how the game is played. Those points are essentially an IOU from the company and they know exactly how many are out there and can estimate with pretty good accuracy how many will be used on any given time/route and can adjust the point levels of the travel to minimize reward bookings.
Hawaii service is all about stopping the practice of customer created connections. We are currently feeding Hawaiian and other airlines through our huge domestic network and not reaping any of the rewards. Look at Hawaiians presence in all of our big west coast stations. Think that is a coincidence?

flysocal77
09-24-2017, 09:34 AM
The reason we aren't already serving Hawaii is because we don't have a plane that can do it. This all changes when the max arrives and I will be surprised if we don't start in 2018.

e6bpilot
09-24-2017, 11:34 AM
The reason we aren't already serving Hawaii is because we don't have a plane that can do it. This all changes when the max arrives and I will be surprised if we don't start in 2018.



We have a fleet of ETOPS 800s that could do it today if we had the blessing of the FAA. Thatís part of how they sold the 800s to the pilot group for freeeeeeeeee.

at6d
09-24-2017, 11:38 AM
I was told our configuration on the 800's is what prevents it.

ZapBrannigan
09-24-2017, 12:45 PM
I was told our configuration on the 800's is what prevents it.


We pack em' in there pretty good. We carry 12 more people than Alaska does on a -800. I've always heard you can carry people or you can carry cargo to Hawaii... but not both. And you need cargo to make money because of the aforementioned frequent flier awards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

e6bpilot
09-24-2017, 01:26 PM
Yeah I dunno man. Alaska (and United) have been crushing it carrying pax in a 737 from the left coast to Hawaii for a while now. Virgin uses 320s that have similar performance characteristics. I can almost bet you that once we start, we will be using our 800s and 700s along with the max.
The only thing I could see the max maybe doing is something like Denver or PHX (I admittedly donít know if that is actually possible, but it sounds plausible) to HNL.

flyguy81
09-24-2017, 04:42 PM
It's roughly 2,900 mi from Den-Hnl. Max 8 has a range of roughly 3,500 mi.

UAL is ramping up the HI flights in DEN so it all depends on if they want to compete on the route with UAL flying 757, 777, and 787's.

at6d
09-24-2017, 05:22 PM
Yeah I dunno man. Alaska (and United) have been crushing it carrying pax in a 737 from the left coast to Hawaii for a while now. Virgin uses 320s that have similar performance characteristics. I can almost bet you that once we start, we will be using our 800s and 700s along with the max.
The only thing I could see the max maybe doing is something like Denver or PHX (I admittedly donít know if that is actually possible, but it sounds plausible) to HNL.

Do they put 173 pax in their 800's?

flyguy81
09-24-2017, 07:27 PM
Do they put 173 pax in their 800's?

Bout 180 in a -900 on UAL/AK.
Bout 190 in a -321 on VX

Not sure the range with that PAX configuration on a -900 or -321 compared to our -800.

snowdawg
09-24-2017, 08:02 PM
We pack em' in there pretty good. We carry 12 more people than Alaska does on a -800. I've always heard you can carry people or you can carry cargo to Hawaii... but not both. And you need cargo to make money because of the aforementioned frequent flier awards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What cargo? Cargo space is stuffed with free bags.:confused:

BZC17
09-24-2017, 08:14 PM
What cargo? Cargo space is stuffed with free bags.:confused:

Doesn't matter if you are losing people on the rapid rewards side. Our -700s and -800s could do it all day out of Oakland and lax. Seattle and Portland might get tricky a couple of times during the winter. Give me a break.

G4IND
10-10-2017, 07:44 AM
Anything getting announced tomorrow?

e6bpilot
10-10-2017, 07:49 AM
I did have a senior dispatcher on the jumpseat doing her currency who works in the back office involved in development of new routes. She was notably silent about any upcoming service but said the new max aircraft are all etops and that they are working very hard on etops certs in her office.

sailingfun
10-10-2017, 07:56 AM
It's roughly 2,900 mi from Den-Hnl. Max 8 has a range of roughly 3,500 mi.

UAL is ramping up the HI flights in DEN so it all depends on if they want to compete on the route with UAL flying 757, 777, and 787's.

Won't be even close to making it in the Winter with the headwinds. In addition you may need decompression fuel adding weight.

G4IND
10-11-2017, 07:18 PM
https://twitter.com/SouthwestAir/status/918313516892938240

For those that didn't hear already...

at6d
10-11-2017, 07:20 PM
Just watched Gary say it.

utahpilot
10-11-2017, 07:32 PM
when?

routes?

PNWFlyer
10-11-2017, 08:30 PM
when?

routes?

More importantly ETOPS?

augustwest
10-11-2017, 08:45 PM
We pack em' in there pretty good. We carry 12 more people than Alaska does on a -800. I've always heard you can carry people or you can carry cargo to Hawaii... but not both. And you need cargo to make money because of the aforementioned frequent flier awards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

175 on the 800 westbound is a problem. I see Hawaii being all MAX.

e6bpilot
10-11-2017, 09:13 PM
175 on the 800 westbound is a problem. I see Hawaii being all MAX.


ETOPS 800s to begin with and then primarily Max aircraft is what I have heard.
Itís 2,300 miles from LA to HNL, even less from Oakland. It always blows my mind how folks think it is so far. Itís basically a transcon worth of flying. It is less distance than BWI-SAN and we somehow manage that with a full boat of people.

Burton78
10-11-2017, 09:40 PM
ETOPS 800s to begin with and then primarily Max aircraft is what I have heard.
Itís 2,300 miles from LA to HNL, even less from Oakland. It always blows my mind how folks think it is so far. Itís basically a transcon worth of flying. It is less distance than BWI-SAN and we somehow manage that with a full boat of people.

Lot's of places to divert between BWI and SAN should you lose an engine however..

WHACKMASTER
10-11-2017, 09:47 PM
Lot's of places to divert between BWI and SAN should you lose an engine however..

Exactly. Itís not the equivalent of a transcon. For example, a decompression at your ETP and now you have to fly the next 2.5 hours at 10,000í.

Donít forget to factor in APU burn as well because on the 737 that needs to be run CONTINOUSLY for ETOPS as a third source of electrical power being that we donít have a RAT.

Grumble
10-11-2017, 11:03 PM
ETOPS 800s to begin with and then primarily Max aircraft is what I have heard.
It’s 2,300 miles from LA to HNL, even less from Oakland. It always blows my mind how folks think it is so far. It’s basically a transcon worth of flying. It is less distance than BWI-SAN and we somehow manage that with a full boat of people.

As was alluded to... go BWI to SAN, but decend to 10k' and shut one down over LBB. You have to carry the gas to do it, then you can take people and all their free bags. Throw in an alternate to really make it fun.

stanky
10-11-2017, 11:17 PM
I'm happy to hear that SW is getting ETOPs and going to Hawaii. I think it will be a great thing for the pilots there. I'm curious though, you guys had your class II pulled after just a few weeks, and now you can't even take the shortcuts (legally) to the Caribbean.

Are you gonna reign in the cowboys, or lose ETOPs and get embarrassed with the Hawaii thing.

I wish you the best, and I hope your ETOPs training fixes that issue, but I'll never forget hearing SW on NY AIRINC requesting direct to San Juan. The operator went through multiple long explanations as to why that wasn't possible, but the pilots didn't seem to comprehend what he was saying. Not long after, I stopped hearing them out there.

They also couldn't seem to do a proper position report. "SW 360 checking in at 330" was not what the operator was looking for. Then it was a question and answer session for 5 minutes to fill in the position report.

I just hope ETOPs is taken a little more seriously. Its kind of a big deal to do it right. 2 or 3 hours off shore is a long way from help when something goes wrong.

kingairfun
10-11-2017, 11:30 PM
Welcome to Hawaii....

One tip, use a company frequency to discuss your layover plans.

Tip two, yes we know if you're west bound your going to the "islands".

Tip three, it's a track not a route.. for some reason Alpha route sounds weird

tacoma1946
10-12-2017, 01:39 AM
I'm happy to hear that SW is getting ETOPs and going to Hawaii. I think it will be a great thing for the pilots there. I'm curious though, you guys had your class II pulled after just a few weeks, and now you can't even take the shortcuts (legally) to the Caribbean.

Are you gonna reign in the cowboys, or lose ETOPs and get embarrassed with the Hawaii thing.

I wish you the best, and I hope your ETOPs training fixes that issue, but I'll never forget hearing SW on NY AIRINC requesting direct to San Juan. The operator went through multiple long explanations as to why that wasn't possible, but the pilots didn't seem to comprehend what he was saying. Not long after, I stopped hearing them out there.

They also couldn't seem to do a proper position report. "SW 360 checking in at 330" was not what the operator was looking for. Then it was a question and answer session for 5 minutes to fill in the position report.

I just hope ETOPs is taken a little more seriously. Its kind of a big deal to do it right. 2 or 3 hours off shore is a long way from help when something goes wrong.

You sound like you tried to get hired by SWA and did not make it. Maybe next time.

Sluggo_63
10-12-2017, 02:39 AM
You sound like you tried to get hired by SWA and did not make it. Maybe next time.He's right, though. Just look at the post from e6bpilot below.

ETOPS 800s to begin with and then primarily Max aircraft is what I have heard.
Itís 2,300 miles from LA to HNL, even less from Oakland. It always blows my mind how folks think it is so far. Itís basically a transcon worth of flying. It is less distance than BWI-SAN and we somehow manage that with a full boat of people.He's basically saying that flying form the West coast to Hawaii is no different than BWI-SAN. That's crazy. It's probably one of the longest ETOPS routes out there. From what I've heard about your training department, it's full of F-teen guys like this who have never done any of this type of flying and won't listen to the guys at the company who actually did do ETOPS, re-dispatch, etc... OAK-HNL is less distance than BWI-SAN adn you "manage to do that with a full boat of people." Yup, no difference in the two...:confused:

PNWFlyer
10-12-2017, 04:26 AM
Donít forget to factor in APU burn as well because on the 737 that needs to be run CONTINOUSLY for ETOPS as a third source of electrical power being that we donít have a RAT.

After a few years of not screwing anything up the FAA will relax that requirement as long as the APU has periodically had a cold soaked start.

blockplus
10-12-2017, 04:52 AM
After a few years of not screwing anything up the FAA will relax that requirement as long as the APU has periodically had a cold soaked start.

Has nothing to do with time flying etops procedures. You must have a triple redundant system. The normal 737 apu is not adequate. B does offer an autostart system for the apu specifically for 180 etops. I think AS and Ua have or are getting them in order to negate the apu run till 60 min out. Etops add fuel is the biggest concern

sherpster
10-12-2017, 05:04 AM
You sound like you tried to get hired by SWA and did not make it. Maybe next time.

Always the SWA pilot fallback. Too funny.

PNWFlyer
10-12-2017, 05:59 AM
Has nothing to do with time flying etops procedures. You must have a triple redundant system. The normal 737 apu is not adequate. B does offer an autostart system for the apu specifically for 180 etops. I think AS and Ua have or are getting them in order to negate the apu run till 60 min out. Etops add fuel is the biggest concern

AS does not have auto start APUs and does not have to run the APU on ETOPS flights (unless the APU has not had a cold soaked start in however many days). FAA recidened that requirement several years ago.

People seem to forget ETOPS certification is airline specific.

e6bpilot
10-12-2017, 06:26 AM
He's right, though. Just look at the post from e6bpilot below.



He's basically saying that flying form the West coast to Hawaii is no different than BWI-SAN. That's crazy. It's probably one of the longest ETOPS routes out there. From what I've heard about your training department, it's full of F-teen guys like this who have never done any of this type of flying and won't listen to the guys at the company who actually did do ETOPS, re-dispatch, etc... OAK-HNL is less distance than BWI-SAN adn you "manage to do that with a full boat of people." Yup, no difference in the two...[emoji782]



Dude, I am not an Air Force fighter guy. Most of my prior experience is flying a 707. I have flown over the water a lot further than Hawaii in a prior job. I understand the associated risks and fuel planning as I have done it many many times only I was the one doing the preparation and fuel planning, not dispatch.
My point was to illustrate that we arenít going to Singapore. We are going less distance than it takes to cross the United States. The 737 does it on multiple airlines and they somehow manage to make money. I am surprised that this comes to a shock to many people who seem to think that SWA has just announced Hawaii because there was no money in it on our 175 seat 800's. We havenít done it yet because we are too cheap to pay the associated up front costs for training and equipment.
That was my only point. Sheesh.

e6bpilot
10-12-2017, 06:35 AM
I'm happy to hear that SW is getting ETOPs and going to Hawaii. I think it will be a great thing for the pilots there. I'm curious though, you guys had your class II pulled after just a few weeks, and now you can't even take the shortcuts (legally) to the Caribbean.



Are you gonna reign in the cowboys, or lose ETOPs and get embarrassed with the Hawaii thing.



I wish you the best, and I hope your ETOPs training fixes that issue, but I'll never forget hearing SW on NY AIRINC requesting direct to San Juan. The operator went through multiple long explanations as to why that wasn't possible, but the pilots didn't seem to comprehend what he was saying. Not long after, I stopped hearing them out there.



They also couldn't seem to do a proper position report. "SW 360 checking in at 330" was not what the operator was looking for. Then it was a question and answer session for 5 minutes to fill in the position report.



I just hope ETOPs is taken a little more seriously. Its kind of a big deal to do it right. 2 or 3 hours off shore is a long way from help when something goes wrong.



Our prior etops training was a sad embarrassment. I am honestly amazed the feds bought off on it. The clowns on the radio that you mention were a victim of that approach to training.
We now have etops bid groups and I suspect the training will be a lot more robust and that our POI is not going to let that happen again.

e6bpilot
10-12-2017, 06:38 AM
Exactly. Itís not the equivalent of a transcon. For example, a decompression at your ETP and now you have to fly the next 2.5 hours at 10,000í.



Donít forget to factor in APU burn as well because on the 737 that needs to be run CONTINOUSLY for ETOPS as a third source of electrical power being that we donít have a RAT.



Whack, I understand the planning and fuel that goes into it. I have flown a lot further over the water. I have asked my Alaska and United friends and they all say they donít run their apu.

stanky
10-12-2017, 06:43 AM
Our prior etops training was a sad embarrassment. I am honestly amazed the feds bought off on it. The clowns on the radio that you mention were a victim of that approach to training.
We now have etops bid groups and I suspect the training will be a lot more robust and that our POI is not going to let that happen again.


That's all that I was saying. I sincerely hope you're right.

To the tool who suggested that I was bitter because I didn't get hired there. Wrong dude. It might surprise you, but I never wanted to work there, consequently I never applied. I flew the 737 when I first went to United almost 20 years ago and couldn't imagine spending an entire career in it.

Nice arrogance though.

SlipKid
10-12-2017, 06:51 AM
You sound like you tried to get hired by SWA and did not make it. Maybe next time.

It sounded more like he actually works here. :D

SlipKid
10-12-2017, 06:56 AM
Our prior etops training was a sad embarrassment. I am honestly amazed the feds bought off on it. The clowns on the radio that you mention were a victim of that approach to training.
We now have etops bid groups and I suspect the training will be a lot more robust and that our POI is not going to let that happen again.


The only thing I learned from the day of Class 2 nav training was that I would make it my business to never put myself into the position of ever doing it.

Oh, and I did manage to score a 27 tfp+ 3 day while ELITTing during class, since it was on the 25th.

I'll opt out of the ETOPs subset too.

PNWFlyer
10-12-2017, 07:35 AM
Dude, I am not an Air Force fighter guy. Most of my prior experience is flying a 707. I have flown over the water a lot further than Hawaii in a prior job. I understand the associated risks and fuel planning as I have done it many many times only I was the one doing the preparation and fuel planning, not dispatch.
My point was to illustrate that we arenít going to Singapore. We are going less distance than it takes to cross the United States. The 737 does it on multiple airlines and they somehow manage to make money. I am surprised that this comes to a shock to many people who seem to think that SWA has just announced Hawaii because there was no money in it on our 175 seat 800's. We havenít done it yet because we are too cheap to pay the associated up front costs for training and equipment.
That was my only point. Sheesh.

The part you are missing is the fact the 737 was never designed or intended to do this. Yes, lots of us have flown further over the water, but not with only 2 engines and 1 crossfeed valve. That is a big deal to the FAA.

07Driver
10-12-2017, 07:38 AM
This:

I'm happy to hear that SW is getting ETOPs and going to Hawaii. I think it will be a great thing for the pilots there. I'm curious though, you guys had your class II pulled after just a few weeks, and now you can't even take the shortcuts (legally) to the Caribbean.

Are you gonna reign in the cowboys, or lose ETOPs and get embarrassed with the Hawaii thing.

I wish you the best, and I hope your ETOPs training fixes that issue, but I'll never forget hearing SW on NY AIRINC requesting direct to San Juan. The operator went through multiple long explanations as to why that wasn't possible, but the pilots didn't seem to comprehend what he was saying. Not long after, I stopped hearing them out there.

They also couldn't seem to do a proper position report. "SW 360 checking in at 330" was not what the operator was looking for. Then it was a question and answer session for 5 minutes to fill in the position report.

I just hope ETOPs is taken a little more seriously. Its kind of a big deal to do it right. 2 or 3 hours off shore is a long way from help when something goes wrong.



And this
Always the SWA pilot fallback. Too funny.

And no, I am not a SWA reject. Once again showing the smugness of our SWA pilot group...I have news for you, this isn't 2002, or 2008. We're not the only game in town anymore.

The first 6 months in HA will be a total SH...show...Anyone that has flown more than a week here can figure it out....anyone that has sat through our Class will realize it

07Driver
10-12-2017, 07:43 AM
That's all that I was saying. I sincerely hope you're right.

To the tool who suggested that I was bitter because I didn't get hired there. Wrong dude. It might surprise you, but I never wanted to work there, consequently I never applied. I flew the 737 when I first went to United almost 20 years ago and couldn't imagine spending an entire career in it.

Nice arrogance though.


It's cool man, its how we cope (well, that and showing off our W-2s)...honestly there are a lot of, not bitter necessarily...maybe slight inferiority complex towards the legacies...specifically Delta. My friends that DID have a choice generally chose the legacies...either no-showed at SWA, or quit.

BarrySeal
10-12-2017, 08:08 AM
thread really deteriorated

Sluggo_63
10-12-2017, 08:38 AM
Dude, I am not an Air Force fighter guy. Most of my prior experience is flying a 707. I have flown over the water a lot further than Hawaii in a prior job. I understand the associated risks and fuel planning as I have done it many many times only I was the one doing the preparation and fuel planning, not dispatch.
My point was to illustrate that we arenít going to Singapore. We are going less distance than it takes to cross the United States. The 737 does it on multiple airlines and they somehow manage to make money. I am surprised that this comes to a shock to many people who seem to think that SWA has just announced Hawaii because there was no money in it on our 175 seat 800's. We havenít done it yet because we are too cheap to pay the associated up front costs for training and equipment.
That was my only point. Sheesh.Okay, you flew white 707s, I flew grey ones. So, we've both been trans-oceanic in 4-engine jets. I've also flown 3-holers (MD-11) and twins (777). I'll tell you there is a lot more stuff going on in flying a two-engine plane long distances over the water than there is with a 4-engine military plane. Obviously, other airlines do it, but it sure isn't the same as BWI-LAX.

e6bpilot
10-12-2017, 08:40 AM
Okay, you flew white 707s, I flew grey ones. So, we've both been trans-oceanic in 4-engine jets. I've also flown 3-holers (MD-11) and twins (777). I'll tell you there is a lot more stuff going on in flying a two-engine plane long distances over the water than there is with a 4-engine military plane. Obviously, other airlines do it, but it sure isn't the same as BWI-LAX.



Right. I get that and did prior to my post.
Lots of people already do what we are trying to do. Thatís what I was getting at. It isnít going to the moon even though swa will treat it that way.

ridinhigh
10-12-2017, 08:41 AM
Saw today maybe InterIsland as well.

Any ideas what that might look like?

SlipKid
10-12-2017, 09:01 AM
Saw today maybe InterIsland as well.

Any ideas what that might look like?

I'm guessing it'll look like someone other than SW carry those inter island SW pax.

MasterOfPuppets
10-12-2017, 09:08 AM
It's roughly 2,900 mi from Den-Hnl. Max 8 has a range of roughly 3,500 mi.

UAL is ramping up the HI flights in DEN so it all depends on if they want to compete on the route with UAL flying 757, 777, and 787's.

United had to up its MTOW on the 757-200 fleet just so they could take a full load on a regular basis to HI. The MAX has no prayer of making that flight with any sort of payload worth while.

ETOPS requires ALOT of gas.....how many miles it is really doesn't mean jack. Plan worst case scenario Depress then fly back to HI or the mainland at 10,000 ft on one engine into the wind (because thats the longest time). On top of that make sure you have your B343 fuel (ETOPS Add fuel), your alt fuel and your company policy reserve fuel.

I have doubts that the MAX or the NEO will be able to take a full load to HI from anywhere but the west coast and even then not in the winter. It will be interesting to see how these planes do after a year of operation.

e6bpilot
10-12-2017, 09:34 AM
I'm guessing it'll look like someone other than SW carry those inter island SW pax.



Thatís my guess as well.

at6d
10-12-2017, 09:39 AM
At the end of the day, we are

1. Hiring
2. Expanding
3. Profitable
4. The largest domestic carrier

I'm not too worried about Hawaii not working out. I think it's cool, and nice news for a change. Im more interested in the 50 international destinations SWA is looking at.

SWA opening up Hawaii will cause our compeditors some heartburn, as is apparent in this thread.

Smokey23
10-12-2017, 12:20 PM
Five more pages, minimum, of "I know more about ETOPS than you do" until this thread finally dies. :rolleyes:

ZapBrannigan
10-12-2017, 02:54 PM
Off topic I really hate the "largest domestic carrier" flag they throw around. It's disingenuous because it doesn't take into account the feeders - which, like it or not - are a part of the network. If you compare SW to Delta and all of the Delta Connection feed for example, or United and the United Express feed, our network is a fraction of the size and I'd bet a steak dinner that we carry fewer Pax than any one of those NETWORKS.


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ZapBrannigan
10-12-2017, 02:57 PM
Bets on the ETOPS domicile? I'm going with OAK and PHX.

Grumble
10-12-2017, 03:34 PM
At the end of the day, we are

1. Hiring
2. Expanding
3. Profitable
4. The largest domestic carrier

I'm not too worried about Hawaii not working out. I think it's cool, and nice news for a change. Im more interested in the 50 international destinations SWA is looking at.

SWA opening up Hawaii will cause our compeditors some heartburn, as is apparent in this thread.

It's not heartburn, its concern given SWAs history.

David Puddy
10-12-2017, 03:55 PM
Bets on the ETOPS domicile? I'm going with OAK and PHX.

Can the MAX fly full between PHX and HNL with average winds?

gipple
10-12-2017, 04:22 PM
No maintenance CBA referencing ETOPS. The MAX didnít come from the factory ETOPS qualified such as 777 or 787.
Cart before the horse as usual.

PNWFlyer
10-12-2017, 05:11 PM
Can the MAX fly full between PHX and HNL with average winds?

It canít do it with favorable winds.

utahpilot
10-12-2017, 05:30 PM
sooooo, Alaska flies back and forth to Hawaii each day using 73s, why is this a big deal that SW will do the same?

07Driver
10-12-2017, 05:56 PM
sooooo, Alaska flies back and forth to Hawaii each day using 73s, why is this a big deal that SW will do the same?

I am guessing different configuration. they have first class, less seats less people less weight

Skyward
10-12-2017, 06:08 PM
I am guessing different configuration. they have first class, less seats less people less weight

SWA could limit the number of pax. Whatís the avg break-even pax load on the max?

RckyMtHigh
10-12-2017, 06:29 PM
I'm fairly certain that someone in Dallas has done the math on this.

Skyward
10-12-2017, 07:00 PM
I'm fairly certain that someone in Dallas has done the math on this.

No doubt. SWA has this figured out or they wouldn't be doing it.

WHACKMASTER
10-12-2017, 07:41 PM
I'm fairly certain that someone in Dallas has done the math on this.

Bahahahaha! Yeah, just like the WATERS fiasco, huh? Youíll pardon my lack of confidence.

SlipKid
10-12-2017, 07:49 PM
Bahahahaha! Yeah, just like the WATERS fiasco, huh? Youíll pardon my lack of confidence.

LOL.... No kidding.... I'm glad I'll be very far from the coming ETOPS fiasco!

Grumble
10-12-2017, 08:23 PM
LOL.... No kidding.... I'm glad I'll be very far from the coming ETOPS fiasco!

The bigger problem is the issues they'll create for everyone else on the tracks out there.

CA1900
10-12-2017, 09:23 PM
Or maybe it'll go just fine... :rolleyes:

flyguy81
10-13-2017, 06:19 AM
Kinda like when we started flying to ďbigĒ airports and everyone said SWA would cripple NYC...blah blah blah.

Iím guessing itíll be a nonevent.

WHACKMASTER
10-13-2017, 06:57 AM
Kinda like when we started flying to ďbigĒ airports and everyone said SWA would cripple NYC...blah blah blah.

Iím guessing itíll be a nonevent.

Or when the check airman effed up the proving runs to SJU, or when we got kicked out of WATTRS.

The ďit flew in, itíll fly outĒ mentality is alive and well. How about taking oceanic flying seriously because itís a HUGE embarrassment when our guys are asking NY Radio for ďdirect SJUĒ. Clueless....

Twin Wasp
10-13-2017, 07:01 AM
sooooo, Alaska flies back and forth to Hawaii each day using 73s, why is this a big deal that SW will do the same?

Because (1) the prevailing winds are a straight head wind from the West Coast and (2) the option of diverting into Cold Bay shortens the ETOPS segment.

07Driver
10-13-2017, 07:42 AM
Or when the check airman effed up the proving runs to SJU, or when we got kicked out of WATTRS.

The ďit flew in, itíll fly outĒ mentality is alive and well. How about taking oceanic flying seriously because itís a HUGE embarrassment when our guys are asking NY Radio for ďdirect SJUĒ. Clueless....

yeah, pretty much this.

and let's not forget we have already punted before with ETOPS and Class 2...we are not awesome at this...Texas two steppers heads will explode

Pogey Bait
10-13-2017, 09:09 AM
For what it's worth, Virgin America took over a year to get ETOP'd. They are the latest airline in the US to get blessed by the Feds.

Peacock
10-13-2017, 09:18 AM
Because (1) the prevailing winds are a straight head wind from the West Coast and (2) the option of diverting into Cold Bay shortens the ETOPS segment.
Alaska Airlines flies to Hawaii from California with 737's

e6bpilot
10-13-2017, 11:10 AM
Wrong thread...deleted.

PNWFlyer
10-13-2017, 11:47 AM
Alaska Airlines flies to Hawaii from California with 737's

So does United and Delta. They all have FAA approved ETOPS programs. If Southwest wants one they need to leave the cowboy hats at home and show up ready to work.

This will not cut it..
"Yeeeehawww, this is Sou-est Position Report... can Y'all relay? We done passed our fix an onnour way to da next, gas is good an we bout outta nutz and wil turkey! Come back?"

Quoted from the Delta thread talking about this.

ROFF
10-13-2017, 12:23 PM
Position.


Funny

smorgan6
10-13-2017, 01:15 PM
You guys act like flying to the islands is a lunar launch'

MasterOfPuppets
10-13-2017, 02:00 PM
You guys act like flying to the islands is a lunar launch'

Yeah well you canít just pick the speed up from filled .78 to .80 just because nobodyís looking. You canít just deviate 30 miles around a Thunderstorm because nobodyís looking. You canít just climb or descend out of turbulence without a clearance and if you donít get that clearance guess what? You are stuck. You HAVE to know the escape maneuvers from the tracks if you lose an engine or decompress. Iím sure SW pilots can figure this out, but to write ETOPS off as just another flight is wrong, itís not as easy as flying across the country. Itís uncontrolled airspace and MY life depends on everyone following SOPs.

Pogey Bait
10-13-2017, 02:44 PM
Yeah well you canít just pick the speed up from filled .78 to .80 just because nobodyís looking. You canít just deviate 30 miles around a Thunderstorm because nobodyís looking. You canít just climb or descend out of turbulence without a clearance and if you donít get that clearance guess what? You are stuck. You HAVE to know the escape maneuvers from the tracks if you lose an engine or decompress. Iím sure SW pilots can figure this out, but to write ETOPS off as just another flight is wrong, itís not as easy as flying across the country. Itís uncontrolled airspace and MY life depends on everyone following SOPs.

If you have CPDLC, and it's working properly, it's actually some of the easiest flying I have ever done. It's quiet and you don't even have to talk to anyone.

Rolf
10-13-2017, 02:44 PM
Them fellas are right, boys, letís just drop the idea. No way Iím giviní up my hat or listenen to some darn con-troll-ers.

MasterOfPuppets
10-13-2017, 02:54 PM
If you have CPDLC, and it's working properly, it's actually some of the easiest flying I have ever done. It's quiet and you don't even have to talk to anyone.

Will SW have CPDLC?

saab2000
10-13-2017, 04:20 PM
Will SW have CPDLC?

It is in place on all Max8 and -800 aircraft and currently being used for preflight ATC clearances. I'm sure its usage will expand.

I did ETOPS at my previous carrier. It involves some different procedures and programming of the FMC and awareness, but it's not rocket science either.

Position reports and plotting are interesting and I look forward to them. They make the flight go much faster. I've flown 737s across the Atlantic and without CPDLC, so yeah, it can be done. But yes, proper research of procedures is a necessity. Don't take anything for granted. On the proving runs the FAA will be watching everything very closely.

I don't know Pacific procedures or if they are different from the North Atlantic Tracks.

tomgoodman
10-13-2017, 06:35 PM
Historical note: There used to be a USCG cutter positioned halfway between SFO-HNL for weather and navigation assistance. A PanAm stratocruiser had to ditch alongside in 1956.

Pan American Flight 6 ditching in the Pacific Ocean, Airline Ditchings, Multiple engine failure (http://airlinesafety.com/editorials/DitchingOfPanAmFlight6.htm)

pilot141
10-13-2017, 07:21 PM
Ahhh, good stuff Tom!

The CPDLC makes flying in Class II airspace seem like less of a big deal than it is. And the ETOPS stuff is an even bigger deal - that seems to be taken lightly sometimes. This **** is a big deal, and even though 90% of the stuff is MX, you still need to know what you are doing.

I have a lot of buddies at SWA, and I hope you guys get this right on the first try. Otherwise, **** will get real.

pilot141
10-13-2017, 07:28 PM
Also, everyone should click on that link that Tom provided.

A Sully for the ages, and the oldest crewmember was only 43.

PNWFlyer
10-13-2017, 07:39 PM
You guys act like flying to the islands is a lunar launch'

No, it isnít hard, but the FAA requires attention to detail. It is easy to get complacent and if they audit your paperwork and see you have been blowing it off the yank your cert.

Flying ETOPS is easy and not technically challenging. Even a regional pilot could do it. But getting the ETOPS cert and keeping it is hard.

RJSAviator76
10-13-2017, 09:45 PM
Yeah well you canít just pick the speed up from filled .78 to .80 just because nobodyís looking. You canít just deviate 30 miles around a Thunderstorm because nobodyís looking. You canít just climb or descend out of turbulence without a clearance and if you donít get that clearance guess what? You are stuck. You HAVE to know the escape maneuvers from the tracks if you lose an engine or decompress. Iím sure SW pilots can figure this out, but to write ETOPS off as just another flight is wrong, itís not as easy as flying across the country. Itís uncontrolled airspace and MY life depends on everyone following SOPs.


Thanks Dad! We'll be careful... :rolleyes:

Skyward
10-13-2017, 10:45 PM
Flying ETOPS is easy and not technically challenging. Even a regional pilot could do it...



Well dang, one step above a caveman I guess. Cracks me up, lol.

Skyward
10-13-2017, 10:55 PM
So does United and Delta. They all have FAA approved ETOPS programs. If Southwest wants one they need to leave the cowboy hats at home and show up ready to work.

This will not cut it..
"Yeeeehawww, this is Sou-est Position Report... can Y'all relay? We done passed our fix an onnour way to da next, gas is good an we bout outta nutz and wil turkey! Come back?"

Quoted from the Delta thread talking about this.

I'm gonna take a guess that few pilots on the SWA thread are interested in what they're talking about on the Delta thread. Wind check?

at6d
10-14-2017, 01:12 AM
So does United and Delta. They all have FAA approved ETOPS programs. If Southwest wants one they need to leave the cowboy hats at home and show up ready to work.

Well...we really going to go down that road about working? LOL I think we have that part covered at least.

YXnot
10-14-2017, 06:24 AM
What's so difficult about going to the islands? Jus make sure it says etops on the gear doors and call it good.

MasterOfPuppets
10-14-2017, 08:54 AM
deleted.........

ANGFlight81
10-14-2017, 09:07 AM
I'm gonna take a guess that few pilots on the SWA thread are interested in what they're talking about on the Delta thread. Wind check?

HAha, we all know that if Delta isnít busy landing at the wrong airport, taking a plane off a runway, landing a heavy on a taxiway, checking on rides, monitoring guard while missing a take off clearance, asking for wind read outs on short final in an A330...

...Theyíre probably busy ironing their double breasted blazer in the crew room on one of their 4 hour sits.

With all that going on, how would they find time to monitor a Southwest thread?

07Driver
10-14-2017, 10:35 AM
HAha, we all know that if Delta isnít busy landing at the wrong airport, taking a plane off a runway, landing a heavy on a taxiway, checking on rides, monitoring guard while missing a take off clearance, asking for wind read outs on short final in an A330...

...Theyíre probably busy ironing their double breasted blazer in the crew room on one of their 4 hour sits.

With all that going on, how would they find time to monitor a Southwest thread?

And nobody at Southwest has ever gone off the runway, landed at the wrong airport, gone off a taxiway, gotten busted on the radios talking about their ďexploitsĒ. No airline is immune.

ZapBrannigan
10-14-2017, 10:46 AM
Good grief guys. It's just an airline. Not a religion. It's not your favorite football team. Do you think that workers at McDonalds get into unit measuring contests with the folks at Burger King.

Just. A. Job.

I've worked for 9 airlines. They're all the same. You talk about the same crap. Everybody buys everybody else an adult beverage from time to time. Everybody thinks they're the best. And they're not. They are all. The. Same.

PS - I miss hub turn sits. That was when I liked to sit down and have lunch at an actual TABLE and maybe even take a poop in a porcelain toilet!


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Reverend
10-14-2017, 12:16 PM
Got it, trips to Hawaii are going to happen. But is this ETOPs cert just a first step to other international routes? And if so where?

07Driver
10-14-2017, 01:44 PM
Good grief guys. It's just an airline. Not a religion. It's not your favorite football team. Do you think that workers at McDonalds get into unit measuring contests with the folks at Burger King.

Just. A. Job.

I've worked for 9 airlines. They're all the same. You talk about the same crap. Everybody buys everybody else an adult beverage from time to time. Everybody thinks they're the best. And they're not. They are all. The. Same.

PS - I miss hub turn sits. That was when I liked to sit down and have lunch at an actual TABLE and maybe even take a poop in a porcelain toilet!


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This, this, exactly this.
STOP. TAKING. IT. PERSONALLY

FL370esq
10-14-2017, 04:34 PM
Right. I get that and did prior to my post.
Lots of people already do what we are trying to do. Thatís what I was getting at. It isnít going to the moon even though swa will treat it that way.

How many are using a single class configuration -800 or -900 to PHNL?

RJSAviator76
10-14-2017, 04:48 PM
How many are using a single class configuration -800 or -900 to PHNL?



ATA flew -800ís with 175 seats if Iím not mistaken.

flyguy81
10-14-2017, 06:12 PM
Got it, trips to Hawaii are going to happen. But is this ETOPs cert just a first step to other international routes? And if so where?

Can hit Europe from Boston in the Max.

at6d
10-14-2017, 10:18 PM
I'd put money on South America.

flyguy81
10-15-2017, 03:05 PM
I'd put money on South America.

Prob a given. Wouldnít necessarily need ETOPS for going South I donít think.

stanky
10-15-2017, 08:10 PM
"Hey, how bout di-rect Medellin?"

smorgan6
10-15-2017, 08:40 PM
Was anything mentioned about LAX base during the party?

Rumor around the campfire' was that it was supposed to be mentioned.

e6bpilot
10-16-2017, 08:27 AM
Was anything mentioned about LAX base during the party?



Rumor around the campfire' was that it was supposed to be mentioned.



No. No mention of any new bases. It will happen sooner or later. Over 1,000 new hires next year to pile on top of the 900 or so this year. The Houston pilot inbox expansion jury rig is starting to look ridiculous.
I wouldnít bank on LAX, but I wouldnít count it out either. Swa spends a fortune on hotel rooms there.

SlipKid
10-16-2017, 10:11 AM
Good grief guys. It's just an airline. Not a religion. It's not your favorite football team. Do you think that workers at McDonalds get into unit measuring contests with the folks at Burger King.

Just. A. Job.

I've worked for 9 airlines. They're all the same. You talk about the same crap. Everybody buys everybody else an adult beverage from time to time. Everybody thinks they're the best. And they're not. They are all. The. Same.

PS - I miss hub turn sits. That was when I liked to sit down and have lunch at an actual TABLE and maybe even take a poop in a porcelain toilet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No kidding.

Number 8 for me, and while in the big scheme of things, flying for SWA is a great job, it is still a J.O.B., warts and all.

Ihateusernames
10-16-2017, 01:22 PM
I'm betting St Louis as a base first.


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at6d
10-16-2017, 07:59 PM
Same. The MDW relief base.

Pogey Bait
10-17-2017, 07:37 AM
Was anything mentioned about LAX base during the party?

Rumor around the campfire' was that it was supposed to be mentioned.

OAK is closer to the islands than LAX.

ZapBrannigan
10-18-2017, 03:14 PM
Itís true. Theyíve already had us start watching the training videos.

https://youtu.be/0FXcP1e4ANQ


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JamesBond
10-19-2017, 12:41 PM
For a SWA bubba: Do you have CPDLC installed on your airplanes?

at6d
10-19-2017, 01:31 PM
Yes we do.

freezingflyboy
10-19-2017, 06:10 PM
Good grief guys. It's just an airline. Not a religion. It's not your favorite football team. Do you think that workers at McDonalds get into unit measuring contests with the folks at Burger King.

Just. A. Job.

I've worked for 9 airlines. They're all the same. You talk about the same crap. Everybody buys everybody else an adult beverage from time to time. Everybody thinks they're the best. And they're not. They are all. The. Same.

PS - I miss hub turn sits. That was when I liked to sit down and have lunch at an actual TABLE and maybe even take a poop in a porcelain toilet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So true. Tribalism is very real at the airlines. Fight it!

flyguy81
10-20-2017, 01:58 AM
So true. Tribalism is very real at the airlines. Fight it!

Since youíre effectively married to the airline, Iíd guess most of the ďmy airline is the bestĒ garbage is people wanting to feel secure in their decision to stick with their dance partner. Would be tough knowing you canít leave, have years left and you made a terrible choice.

JamesBond
10-20-2017, 06:46 AM
Yes we do.thank you sir

How about RNP 4 and ADS-C? Just for future reference.

WindWalker999
10-20-2017, 08:26 AM
Any rumors about SWA entering the Hawaii interisland market now that Island Air is backed into the ropes? Would be hard to do with big ETOPS planes but could tack a Maui-Honolulu leg on the end of a Oakland-Maui or such. Or how about just code-share with Hawaiian?

Vincent Chase
10-20-2017, 09:24 AM
Any rumors about SWA entering the Hawaii interisland market now that Island Air is backed into the ropes? Would be hard to do with big ETOPS planes but could tack a Maui-Honolulu leg on the end of a Oakland-Maui or such. Or how about just code-share with Hawaiian?
...And here's how it starts...
https://www.youtube.com/embed/eQXqBjJZX4Y

Don't ever give up your scope. Next thing you know, HA will be flying all your pax from Haoleville to Braddahland, and vice versa.

at6d
10-20-2017, 11:09 AM
What bro, like beef?!

We are definitely FOB, but agree that scope is a slippery slope. Once given up, really hard to get back.

Vincent Chase
10-20-2017, 11:53 AM
What bro, like beef?!

We are definitely FOB, but agree that scope is a slippery slope. Once given up, really hard to get back.

It's want beef, brah.

Das why hard!

But we tight on da scope issue!

tacoma1946
10-20-2017, 11:54 AM
What bro, like beef?!

We are definitely FOB, but agree that scope is a slippery slope. Once given up, really hard to get back.

I believe SWA can code share in Hawaii already.

at6d
10-20-2017, 12:21 PM
It's want beef, brah.

Das why hard!

But we tight on da scope issue!

Hahahah you right! Mahalo for you kōkua!



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