Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Terrible QOL?


astaz
09-26-2017, 03:31 PM
I've been hearing rumors from ZW guys recently of the FOs being beat to a pulp... Lots of junior manning and extensions, 10+ straight days on, company/CS calling gate agents to prevent commuters from going home so they can be Junior Assigned. Anybody have any recent experience with QOL at ZW? These types of things true/typical? I always thought ZW had a strong contract, but if the company is truly getting away with this stuff, man, it can't be that strong.


FlyPKP
09-26-2017, 03:40 PM
Junior mans and extensions yes. 10 Days? Absolutely not. Contract forbids that. I've not heard of the company trying to block commutes, but I suppose that's possible. ZW has a strong contract, if you're a junior reserve pilot you need to ask 'permission' to be released from duty and that's how the snag people for junior assignment.

Staffing isn't great, there's no doubt there. We're out of retention bonuses and growing flying at a rapid pace and not hiring fast enough. Schedulers are playing dirty, there's no way around that. QOL is good here if we are staffed properly and we're not. Flights ARE cancelling due to staffing daily.

whooooooocares
09-26-2017, 06:04 PM
Quite simply, terrible. You will be on resv. Who knows how long? No one. Guys who are off resv live a completely different life, but ask them to swap schedules with a resv guy and they'll laugh in your face. When people on here tell you it's not that bad or it is good. Ask them when the last time they bid a resv line. There are rumors of a large group of people leaving after our final retention bonus in October. If we can't hire enough people to cover attrition and the new united flying QOL will continue to decrease from the already abysmal level were at now.


ChrisPilot1
09-26-2017, 06:24 PM
Quite simply, terrible. You will be on resv. Who knows how long? No one. Guys who are off resv live a completely different life, but ask them to swap schedules with a resv guy and they'll laugh in your face. When people on here tell you it's not that bad or it is good. Ask them when the last time they bid a resv line. There are rumors of a large group of people leaving after our final retention bonus in October. If we can't hire enough people to cover attrition and the new united flying QOL will continue to decrease from the already abysmal level were at now.

I really don't know where you get your information from. I've spoken to numerous new hires and current pilots who said you will sit reserve for like 1 month and have a line. You continuously bash this company on the forum and your posts used to concern me, but I realized your just a disgruntled FO who is trying to bad talk the company for I don't know what reason, because new hires coming in would probably be a good thing for you. Why don't you leave airwisconsin ?

prex8390
09-26-2017, 06:51 PM
When i worked there before I left during the 2016 exodus I remember one particular day a certain scheduler that had a reputation for a very monotone voice calling me at 415am when I went on call for reserve at 6, and very quickly noticing the "mistake he made" but since he had me on the phone was curious if I was interested in doing a 615 departure. Told him to call
Me back at 6, sure enough he did and I told him I was fatigued and to put me back on rest. Heard from the union he did it to 3 other people that morning. I know I shouldn't have answered to begin with but just kind of half awake didn't look at the clock and picked up.

StrykerB21
09-26-2017, 06:52 PM
Hes not wrong though. I was told Id sit reserve for 3 months. I was on reserve a year and a half.

ChrisPilot1
09-26-2017, 07:22 PM
Hes not wrong though. I was told Id sit reserve for 3 months. I was on reserve a year and a half.

When were you hired? I'm talking specifically about a person hired today

StrykerB21
09-26-2017, 07:39 PM
When were you hired? I'm talking specifically about a person hired today

Who knows, but if history is any teacher you should expect to be on reserve far longer than you were told.

Squibs
09-26-2017, 08:49 PM
Hes not wrong though. I was told Id sit reserve for 3 months. I was on reserve a year and a half.

Huge difference between being told and looking at the numbers. The current FO hiring means that most new hire FO's should be off of reserve within 1-3 months.

Squibs
09-26-2017, 09:05 PM
I've been hearing rumors from ZW guys recently of the FOs being beat to a pulp... Lots of junior manning and extensions, 10+ straight days on, company/CS calling gate agents to prevent commuters from going home so they can be Junior Assigned. Anybody have any recent experience with QOL at ZW? These types of things true/typical? I always thought ZW had a strong contract, but if the company is truly getting away with this stuff, man, it can't be that strong.

We do have a strong contract, one that many regional carriers hold up as an example. Its's also a concessionary contract to most of the pilots on property. It is possible for the contract to both be better than what most regional airlines have currently AND not be as good as what we had previously. Those are not mutually exclusive things.

That being said, some of what you have described does not pass the smell test. 10+ days, as other posters have said, is not allowed. As far as commuters being junior manned, ANYONE can be junior manned prior to release time. After that, it's on you if you pick up the phone. Does not matter if you are a commuter or not.

ZW is a good regional, probably one of the best. It's still an airline. Junior manning is a fact of life most places (cue lurkers explaining how there is no junior manning at their airline).

astaz
09-26-2017, 10:02 PM
10+ days, as other posters have said, is not allowed.

I was reading through your contract looking for where being scheduled like this is not allowed... Do you have a reference to help me out?

Obviously you have to have the 30 hours free from duty per 117, but that can be accomplished legally on a overnight, even though you and I both know that is no substitute for time at home.

pitchtrim
09-27-2017, 04:35 AM
Anybody hired today will not sit on reserve for long. Same thing happened when I was hired after a long period of stagnation and furloughs in the industry. You guys think you have it bad now, go back 10 years and try getting a job. Worst I've heard is guys being extended into a 7th day, which I believe is against the contract. 10 days wouldn't happen. The schedulers have been desperate and playing dirty since staffing on the fo side has been low. Once staffing is good these issues will occur less often. Hopefully the next ta has better reserve and work rules to vote on.

StrykerB21
09-27-2017, 06:36 AM
Huge difference between being told and looking at the numbers. The current FO hiring means that most new hire FO's should be off of reserve within 1-3 months.

That remains to be seen. Are you talking about the number of FOs starting indoc? Or the number of FOs beinh signed off of OE? Unfortunately theres a sizeable gap between those two numbers.

IFLYACRJ
09-27-2017, 07:05 AM
Not sure where you've heard that from? I get rerouted a lot. But when the last leg of my trip blocks in, I grab my stuff and head to the gate to catch my commute home with ZERO issues.
I get junior man calls and I try to help whenever I can.
I've never been on more than 6 days in a row.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

astaz
09-27-2017, 08:32 AM
http://tinypic.com/r/mmwg08/9

If it's against the contract, how does this happen?

Edit: not sure the upload worked so here's a link... http://tinypic.com/r/mmwg08/9

MNpilot16
09-27-2017, 09:36 AM
Exactly why I steered away from this company. After 5 years what's going to happen to air Wisconsin, is there going to be another mass exodus of pilots come the end of this contract with people entering now stuck in upgrades? I heard the class sizes are still relatively small

diverdriver2
09-27-2017, 12:24 PM
Exactly why I steered away from this company. After 5 years what's going to happen to air Wisconsin, is there going to be another mass exodus of pilots come the end of this contract with people entering now stuck in upgrades? I heard the class sizes are still relatively small

You heard wrong.

FlyPKP
09-27-2017, 03:29 PM
You heard wrong.

Last class had 7, I mean from what we were at before that's probably a lot. We're not filling them that's for sure.

diverdriver2
09-27-2017, 04:10 PM
Last class had 7, I mean from what we were at before that's probably a lot. We're not filling them that's for sure.

Incorrect. Last class had 14. We have not seen a class of seven in months. Straight from the guy teaching the classes.

Grumbletrousers
09-27-2017, 05:03 PM
Incorrect. Last class had 14. We have not seen a class of seven in months. Straight from the guy teaching the classes.

Thatís how rumors start

whooooooocares
09-28-2017, 11:09 AM
Saw an union email that said 8 two weeks ago but I hear it was 14. Problem is no one knows for sure and it would be nice if we were given new hire numbers along with resignation numbers each month.

whooooooocares
09-28-2017, 11:37 AM
I really don't know where you get your information from. I've spoken to numerous new hires and current pilots who said you will sit reserve for like 1 month and have a line. You continuously bash this company on the forum and your posts used to concern me, but I realized your just a disgruntled FO who is trying to bad talk the company for I don't know what reason, because new hires coming in would probably be a good thing for you. Why don't you leave airwisconsin ?

You're entitled to your opinion but that doesnt make you right. As I am also entitled to have my own opinion, except I have one thing going for me,my opinion carries with it actual experience. Your ignorance and individual greed is what ruined this industry. 200 guys would make quality of life for me better in the short-term, in the long term for the pilot group we would then forfeit any sliver of bargaining power we still possess. I hope for your sake you show up to class with six other people, you all cash your bonus check and think, gee-whiz this place is awesome, three of you make it through to the line, and you're the last one hired for a year-and-a-half, and then I want you to tell me how wrong I am about this place.

pitchtrim
09-28-2017, 12:41 PM
Lol individual greed.

whooooooocares
09-28-2017, 01:36 PM
Lol individual greed.

Sorry, my point was opposed to collective greed of a group.

sweetholyjesus
09-28-2017, 03:09 PM
You're entitled to your opinion but that doesnt make you right. As I am also entitled to have my own opinion, except I have one thing going for me,my opinion carries with it actual experience. Your ignorance and individual greed is what ruined this industry. 200 guys would make quality of life for me better in the short-term, in the long term for the pilot group we would then forfeit any sliver of bargaining power we still possess. I hope for your sake you show up to class with six other people, you all cash your bonus check and think, gee-whiz this place is awesome, three of you make it through to the line, and you're the last one hired for a year-and-a-half, and then I want you to tell me how wrong I am about this place.Thank you! People like pitchtrim will try to sell obvious recruiter bullsh-t lies to people just because it helps him gain seniority. Why not just tell people the truth and let them decide for themselves? Pilots lying to pilots to help recruiters is some pretty foul stuff. But sure, tell us more about those 18 month upgrades pitchtrim :rolleyes:

pitchtrim
09-28-2017, 03:27 PM
I need seniority? I get the schedules I want. I base my assessments off facts instead of emotions.

CAirBear
09-28-2017, 03:29 PM
So the real question is, how many letters are going to drop in a couple weeks afer this final bonus? Are you still going to be + net gain of pilots? I would imagine CPs are going to be getting a lot of emails.

I was at AWAC for 4 years (been gone 1 year now). Overall I canít complain and definitely had a good time, but this 18-24 talk is ridiculous. If this place were growing then certainly, but even with larger class sizes not everyone makes it through and you still have lots of people moving on (relatively speaking).

A very good friend of mine is between 40 and 50 on the seniority list. He says only 3 people above him have signed up to receive the Hogan test... who knows how many of the top 50% of CAs are at all interested. Seeing that the company is now back in the Midwest (wtf was this when I was there 🙄 lol) I wouldnít be surprised if even more stay put.

I was about 25 away when I left last Oct. Now I have no idea how many may have left above me, but I donít know if I even would have gotten upgrade on this latest award. I would have just hit 5 years 🤷*♂️

pitchtrim
09-28-2017, 03:42 PM
I counted 22 Appleton new hires hitting the line in November with another 20-22 very fresh new hires being awarded something as well. Maybe 40 fo's give their letter after this next bonus, but I doubt it. 11 did this past resignation list.

StrykerB21
09-28-2017, 04:01 PM
I counted 22 Appleton new hires hitting the line in November with another 20-22 very fresh new hires being awarded something as well. Maybe 40 fo's give their letter after this next bonus, but I doubt it. 11 did this past resignation list.

Hitting the line in November. Does that mean they start OE in November and havent taken their checkride yet?

pitchtrim
09-28-2017, 04:06 PM
That I don't know. The one group of 20 may still be wrapping up checkrides and the other group of 20-22 must have finished is my guess.

StrykerB21
09-28-2017, 04:10 PM
I ask because of the huge disparity between the number of people that start the checkride and the number of people who pass the checkride. Numbers in Appleton are good now but the more important number we should be focused on is how many are successful. 20 or 30 in Appleton doesnt mean much unless they do well in training and come out successful.

pitchtrim
09-28-2017, 04:20 PM
Guess we'll see. I'll compare on the next resignation list.

ChrisPilot1
09-28-2017, 10:29 PM
Sorry, my point was opposed to collective greed of a group.

So you are saying all the new hires are greedy? I didn't choose the company for the money only, sure it's a great pull. But from the guys I've spoken to on here and other pilots on the line, about 80% are saying it's a pretty great deal

pitchtrim
09-29-2017, 03:19 AM
Thank you! People like pitchtrim will try to sell obvious recruiter bullsh-t lies to people just because it helps him gain seniority. Why not just tell people the truth and let them decide for themselves? Pilots lying to pilots to help recruiters is some pretty foul stuff. But sure, tell us more about those 18 month upgrades pitchtrim :rolleyes:

Awac on fb posted a picture of the latest class. They have 24. Looks optimistic for someone such as yourself that needs seniority and a quick upgrade.

PotatoChip
09-29-2017, 04:27 AM
LOL to Pitchtrim being a recruiter-type to gain seniority!
Clueless.

pitchtrim
09-29-2017, 05:10 AM
LOL to Pitchtrim being a recruiter-type to gain seniority!
Clueless.

I'm selling lies for my own personal greed! Lol.

Probably more like I read the announcements/emails with actual numbers, talk to people doing the hiring/recruiting, and then confirm some rumors and the latest quality of applicant when they finally end up stuck with me on a trip.

StrykerB21
09-29-2017, 05:43 AM
I'm selling lies for my own personal greed! Lol.

Probably more like I read the announcements/emails with actual numbers, talk to people doing the hiring/recruiting, and then confirm some rumors and the latest quality of applicant when they finally end up stuck with me on a trip.

Youre counting people going through the front end of the training program. You need to count the ones coming out the back and hitting the line.

pitchtrim
09-29-2017, 05:59 AM
Some are on the back end. At least 22. Maybe the full 40+. You do realize we aren't washing out half of the new hires right?

diverdriver2
09-29-2017, 07:18 AM
Youre counting people going through the front end of the training program. You need to count the ones coming out the back and hitting the line.

Currently we are seeing 90% of new hires pass through IOE.

lava
09-29-2017, 02:14 PM
Currently we are seeing 90% of new hires pass through IOE.

Okay. Brown flag thrown from the backjudge. This approaches Mark Twain's understanding of statistics.

Please qualify this statement with sample size, and time to complete, etc. Pass rate for new hires who started 1st quarter 17 is well below 50%.

While the incoming numbers are bigger, there's yet to be a huge influx of unrecognizable in the crew rooms.

toolowterrain
09-29-2017, 03:42 PM
Okay. Brown flag thrown from the backjudge. This approaches Mark Twain's understanding of statistics.

Please qualify this statement with sample size, and time to complete, etc. Pass rate for new hires who started 1st quarter 17 is well below 50%.

While the incoming numbers are bigger, there's yet to be a huge influx of unrecognizable in the crew rooms.

Wow. That was alot of words.

chrisreedrules
09-29-2017, 05:23 PM
Guess we'll see. I'll compare on the next resignation list.

May be more given the recent 9E TA announcement. Even Envoy is offering a 40K signing bonus to pilots who meet their requirements for prior 121. I feel another round of "raising the bar" coming round the bend.

pitchtrim
09-29-2017, 05:44 PM
May be more given the recent 9E TA announcement. Even Envoy is offering a 40K signing bonus to pilots who meet their requirements for prior 121. I feel another round of "raising the bar" coming round the bend.

Finally a race to the top hopefully. Not sure what to make of the negotiating email that was sent out earlier today.

Grumbletrousers
09-29-2017, 07:19 PM
Okay. Brown flag thrown from the backjudge. This approaches Mark Twain's understanding of statistics.

Please qualify this statement with sample size, and time to complete, etc. Pass rate for new hires who started 1st quarter 17 is well below 50%.

While the incoming numbers are bigger, there's yet to be a huge influx of unrecognizable in the crew rooms.

Do you want him to write a thesis too?

lava
09-30-2017, 02:17 AM
Do you want him to write a thesis too?

No, but if you're going to say "100% of moms feed their kids Count Chocula 3 meals a day" you should clarify that your sample size was one.
-And she was with a fat, toothless, annoying child.
-And she was in the cereal isle, holding a box of Count Chocula...

diverdriver2
09-30-2017, 04:11 AM
Do you want him to write a thesis too?

I would say the 90% is post large new hire bonus offer. Even if you mixed in the early part of the year it wouldn't change the overall statistic. We could hardly hire. So even if pass rate of the early year newhires was 50% the vast majority since then pass IOE.

Grumbletrousers
09-30-2017, 05:33 AM
No, but if you're going to say "100% of moms feed their kids Count Chocula 3 meals a day" you should clarify that your sample size was one.
-And she was with a fat, toothless, annoying child.
-And she was in the cereal isle, holding a box of Count Chocula...

Count Chocula is for plebs.

Cinnamon Toast Crunch or nothing.

lava
09-30-2017, 07:33 AM
I would say the 90% is post large new hire bonus offer. Even if you mixed in the early part of the year it wouldn't change the overall statistic. We could hardly hire. So even if pass rate of the early year newhires was 50% the vast majority since then pass IOE.

Thanks for taking the time to qualify it C!

diverdriver2
09-30-2017, 08:43 AM
Thanks for taking the time to qualify it C!

And believe me, I want that completion rate from indoc to done with IOE at 99+%. I want this airline revved up and ready to take on challenges beyond surviving. (yes, that's company rah rah)

Day4mx
09-30-2017, 12:18 PM
Last published seniority list in June had 495. I'll excited to see the next.

pitchtrim
10-02-2017, 10:33 AM
Last published seniority list in June had 495. I'll excited to see the next.

513 as of today. Not much of a gain but the next few months will be telling.

CaptureThis
10-04-2017, 01:17 PM
Since I can not specify my seniority number for that will give me a sure call out hahah. I can tell you I just logged on to update my domicile bid and I have already moved up 50 spots on the list since July, currently on OE now enjoying it for sure. Its a job and that is all it will ever be. The whole 121 industry is a crap shoot especially at the regionals any regional. Just get in line and quit complaining about things you cant control. In due time everyone will flow somewhere, however your next job will be a crap shoot also and we will complain about it, after all we are human and that is what humans do to make conversation.

whooooooocares
10-05-2017, 10:32 AM
Go to endeavor. It will still be years before we get a new contract here. The guys here are filled with apathy, or content. Which means we can't get guys angry enough to DEMAND what has been earned.

CaliforniaHTH
10-05-2017, 01:43 PM
Endeavor contract if voted in is a game changer! Here is a exact quote from a current endeavor f/o who knows both contracts well. Air Wisconsin still leads in 401K and health insurance. This TA catches up or surpasses awac contract in many "soft benefits".

Awac needs a industry leading contract to attract the pilots and stem second wave of mass exodus! Once again we are in a race to the TOP! Anything short will be voted down! Check back in about two weeks to see how this goes!

Day4mx
10-06-2017, 04:00 AM
Endeavor contract if voted in is a game changer! Here is a exact quote from a current endeavor f/o who knows both contracts well. Air Wisconsin still leads in 401K and health insurance. This TA catches up or surpasses awac contract in many "soft benefits".

Awac needs a industry leading contract to attract the pilots and stem second wave of mass exodus! Once again we are in a race to the TOP! Anything short will be voted down! Check back in about two weeks to see how this goes!


This. There is a ta coming any minute for us and i have a feeling it will be far short of endeavours. Absolutely no reason to vote yes for anything short of what endeavour just got.

Grumbletrousers
10-06-2017, 04:33 AM
This. There is a ta coming any minute for us and i have a feeling it will be far short of endeavours. Absolutely no reason to vote yes for anything short of what endeavour just got.

Itís the unions duty to exceed endevours TA to continue to raise the pay and QOL of regional pilots.

If the union and MEC fail to do that then itís our responsibility to vote any TA down.

chrisreedrules
10-06-2017, 04:41 AM
Itís the unions duty to exceed endevours TA to continue to raise the pay and QOL of regional pilots.

If the union and MEC fail to do that then itís our responsibility to vote any TA down.

Guaranteed some will still be playing the part of the anchor no matter what.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1