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View Full Version : Vrrad


nfnsquared
10-02-2017, 08:26 AM
Retired Air Force pilots welcomed back on active duty

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/USDODAF/bulletins/1bab3ce

The VRRAD has been approved since July 11, first I've heard of it.

Wow... But guess I can't say I'm totally surprised...


Castle Bravo
10-02-2017, 12:57 PM
So lemme get this straight...

"We are CRITICALLY undermanned in pilots AF-wide..." so we'll take 25 people back on AD. Wow, a whole 25 dudes.
Let's see...just CONUS we have SOCOM, CENTCOM, STRATCOM, NORTHCOM, & TRANSCOM. Then there is ACC, AMC, GSC, AETC, AFPC, & AFMC.
Assuming only non-joint billets get filled, that's like 2 dudes/dudettes per staff...whew, glad we're making a difference!

Oh, and my favorite..."You can't fly, but you have to get a Class II flying physical."

Only AFPC can screw up an Anvil with a rubber mallet. Oh, and Security Forces.

nfnsquared
10-21-2017, 12:40 PM
So lemme get this straight...

"We are CRITICALLY undermanned in pilots AF-wide..." so we'll take 25 people back on AD. Wow, a whole 25 dudes.
Let's see...just CONUS we have SOCOM, CENTCOM, STRATCOM, NORTHCOM, & TRANSCOM. Then there is ACC, AMC, GSC, AETC, AFPC, & AFMC.
Assuming only non-joint billets get filled, that's like 2 dudes/dudettes per staff...whew, glad we're making a difference!

Oh, and my favorite..."You can't fly, but you have to get a Class II flying physical."

Only AFPC can screw up an Anvil with a rubber mallet. Oh, and Security Forces.


Well, looks like the 25 was set by law, not AFPC. And now the number is up to 1,000:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/21/trump-executive-order-lets-air-force-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots.html


VandalF16
10-21-2017, 01:20 PM
Given that it reads like a **** deal, why would anyone, let alone 1000 pilots, take AFPC up on this?

Sputnik
10-21-2017, 02:12 PM
Given that it reads like a **** deal, why would anyone, let alone 1000 pilots, take AFPC up on this?

Cause it doesnt have to be voluntary.

Grumble
10-21-2017, 06:48 PM
Sounds like there is a critical over demand for bloated staffs.... maybe start there.

Glad you enjoyed your retirement. You're going to be the COS for Gen Nobodycares in easteran crapistan. Oh and if you don't perform we'll admin sep you and say good bye to your retirement.

VandalF16
10-22-2017, 05:54 AM
Cause it doesnt have to be voluntary.

At this point it is, but I agree this is the first step towards the AF making it involuntary. Strange decision if they do though, it won't fix the problem and the CSAF understands this. Publicly he says the AF won't stop loss, but this seems like a slightly different way of doing just that in the near term.

nfnsquared
10-23-2017, 03:36 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-10-22/air-force-no-plans-to-recall-retired-pilots-to-fix-shortage

hindsight2020
10-23-2017, 03:53 PM
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-10-22/air-force-no-plans-to-recall-retired-pilots-to-fix-shortage

There ya go boys, all is well. Back to counting your pro-sharing checks and kvetching about green slips :D

kc135pirate
10-24-2017, 03:20 AM
At this point it is, but I agree this is the first step towards the AF making it involuntary. Strange decision if they do though, it won't fix the problem and the CSAF understands this. Publicly he says the AF won't stop loss, but this seems like a slightly different way of doing just that in the near term.



The problem with stop loss is that they have to provide congress with a plan to end the stop loss program. Since they have been unsuccessful so far in any of those efforts, they would have a tough time justifying it to congress. This also assumes congress is doing their job [emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Blackhawk
10-24-2017, 06:13 AM
I won't be surprised to see this soon with other services. I just spoke to some Army pilots I know who are still active duty. The selection rate for civilians applying to flight school has run 100% of qualified applicants the last few boards. Enlisted applying to flight school it is now running 75% acceptance rate. Some of the "distinct" units have been crippled recently by retirements and are canceling classes for new pilots as they aren't getting enough assessments and combining companies due to a lack of bodies to fill airframes.
For those beginning a career, it may well be a good time to do so.

rickair7777
10-24-2017, 08:19 AM
I won't be surprised to see this soon with other services. I just spoke to some Army pilots I know who are still active duty. The selection rate for civilians applying to flight school has run 100% of qualified applicants the last few boards. Enlisted applying to flight school it is now running 75% acceptance rate. Some of the "distinct" units have been crippled recently by retirements and are canceling classes for new pilots as they aren't getting enough assessments and combining companies due to a lack of bodies to fill airframes.
For those beginning a career, it may well be a good time to do so.

If the military can't fill flight school slots, now I'm worried about a pilot shortage.

Blackhawk
10-24-2017, 08:28 AM
If the military can't fill flight school slots, now I'm worried about a pilot shortage.

Just to clarify, not the flight school slots canceled but classes for advanced training for some units due to a lack of volunteers for those units. I did not want to list specific units.

rickair7777
10-24-2017, 08:56 AM
Just to clarify, not the flight school slots canceled but classes for advanced training for some units due to a lack of volunteers for those units. I did not want to list specific units.

Copy.
........

JTwift
10-24-2017, 12:02 PM
I won't be surprised to see this soon with other services. I just spoke to some Army pilots I know who are still active duty. The selection rate for civilians applying to flight school has run 100% of qualified applicants the last few boards. Enlisted applying to flight school it is now running 75% acceptance rate. Some of the "distinct" units have been crippled recently by retirements and are canceling classes for new pilots as they aren't getting enough assessments and combining companies due to a lack of bodies to fill airframes.
For those beginning a career, it may well be a good time to do so.

The Army has the "luxury" of Warrant Officers. The Air Force is too stubborn to entertain that idea.

Blackhawk
10-24-2017, 01:04 PM
The Army has the "luxury" of Warrant Officers. The Air Force is too stubborn to entertain that idea.

Or do what the British Army does (did?), with flight officers. I was assigned with a British flight lieutenant in Africa once who must have been in his 50's.

hindsight2020
10-24-2017, 04:03 PM
The Army has the "luxury" of Warrant Officers. The Air Force is too stubborn to entertain that idea.

This has been addressed before. An enlisted member with USAF fixed wing turbine experience would have an even greater incentive not to stay for a flying career than a commissioned officer in the first place (the salary opportunity cost delta is even more lopsided in favor of the enlisted punching out), so it actually exacerbates the retention issue. Throttle up the initial obligation as a response, and now you have an outright recruitment problem, officer or enlisted. Non-starter.

You would also have to line up all services to dilute the payrates for fixed wing turbine in unison, especially in tacair, otherwise you have no leverage. Not gonna happen.

Blackhawk
10-24-2017, 04:27 PM
This has been addressed before. An enlisted member with USAF fixed wing turbine experience would have an even greater incentive not to stay for a flying career than a commissioned officer in the first place (the salary opportunity cost delta is even more lopsided in favor of the enlisted punching out), so it actually exacerbates the retention issue. Throttle up the initial obligation as a response, and now you have an outright recruitment problem, officer or enlisted. Non-starter.

You would also have to line up all services to dilute the payrates for fixed wing turbine in unison, especially in tacair, otherwise you have no leverage. Not gonna happen.

Warrant officers are not enlisted. But you knew that, right?

Blackhawk
10-25-2017, 07:11 AM
https://www.facebook.com/DoctrineMan/photos/a.169913026375190.35223.110598432306650/1758782114154932/?type=3&theater


Does this sum it up?

crewdog58
10-25-2017, 10:01 AM
They did this before back in 2009 and brought back 500 retired pilots (VRRADS). I was one of the 500.

hindsight2020
10-30-2017, 10:30 PM
Warrant officers are not enlisted. But you knew that, right?

Don't get hung up on semantics. They're still paid considerably less than field grade officers, which is to say it makes civilian pay even better than from the vantage point of an FGO. And that IS the point, whether it offends people's sensitivities or not. The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.

crewdawg
10-31-2017, 09:01 AM
Don't get hung up on semantics. They're still paid considerably less than field grade officers, which is to say it makes civilian pay even better than from the vantage point of an FGO. And that IS the point, whether it offends people's sensitivities or not. The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.

Spot on!

Only because I've also seen more and more instances of this rearing it's head. Some act like the requirements for flying positions are some sort of "state secret." One guy spends time "fighting the man" and the other spends time working toward requirements (degree/officership)...I'll give you 3 chances to pick which one comes out ahead.

This from a former NCO/current FGO.

rickair7777
10-31-2017, 09:14 AM
The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.


The army uses aircraft and pilots in a support role.

For the AF, flying is inherent to their core mission, in the navy it is the primary means of power projection (since 1942). Since flying is a fundamental pillar of these services, they need pilots in leadership roles not just in the air elements, but in the larger organization. Using commissioned officers as pilots is essentially a means to attract talent some of which will eventually become key leaders. Most of the O6+ I know joined to fly, not to become admirals.

The navy recently did another experiment with flying warrants (since terminated). You can always find a few suitable enlisted for flight training, but given the technical complexities of modern aviation the bar has to be pretty high. I think they just couldn't find enough suitable candidates to justify maintaining and managing a career track. If you're that talented and motivated, the military will pay for your college, so most of the suitable and interested candidates probably already have or are getting a degree and/or commission.

Hobbit64
10-31-2017, 10:45 AM
Don't get hung up on semantics. They're still paid considerably less than field grade officers, which is to say it makes civilian pay even better than from the vantage point of an FGO. And that IS the point, whether it offends people's sensitivities or not. The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.

Rough math shows about a $2000 difference per month, not including flt pay...
I'm curious what you mean re: the bolded text.

Hobbit64
11-02-2017, 05:55 PM
https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/warrant-officers/

crewdawg
11-03-2017, 06:16 AM
Rough math shows about a $2000 difference per month, not including flt pay...

That's not an insignificant amount of money. As a 16+ year O-4, I already take a massive paycut to go on orders. Adding $2,000 to that, does not help the cause. Viewed the other way, when dudes are on AD and looking at what they could be making (while working significantly less), if the difference is $2,000 greater, you would see a bigger exodus!

While I like the idea of WOs, I think it would only exacerbate the situation.

Hobbit64
11-03-2017, 01:22 PM
That's not an insignificant amount of money. As a 16+ year O-4, I already take a massive paycut to go on orders. Adding $2,000 to that, does not help the cause. Viewed the other way, when dudes are on AD and looking at what they could be making (while working significantly less), if the difference is $2,000 greater, you would see a bigger exodus!

While I like the idea of WOs, I think it would only exacerbate the situation.

Good points. I once had a College professor who retired as a Naval Aviator who was an LDO (Limited Duty Officer). That is the route I've always thought the Army should take to transition to be more in-line with the rest of the services. Of course this would require going to congress for more Regular Line Officer quota's (more $$) which the Army will not do....

rickair7777
11-03-2017, 05:05 PM
The issue is not money, it's career progression... the army doesn't have enough appropriate career jobs for a gazillion commissioned helo pilots through O5/O6.

The Navy/AF need pilots in senior staff and leadership jobs which cannot be filled by warrants.

Different services, different structural needs.

Hobbit64
11-04-2017, 09:05 AM
The issue is not money, it's career progression... the army doesn't have enough appropriate career jobs for a gazillion commissioned helo pilots through O5/O6.

The Navy/AF need pilots in senior staff and leadership jobs which cannot be filled by warrants.

Different services, different structural needs.
So what makes an O-3 IP in a Navy unit different than a W-3 IP in an Army unit? Different responsibilities? Teach, Maintain Stands records, manage unit training program, run CFC and or voting or EO program on the side. Would a Navy IP not do this too? Honest question as I've never been in a Navy unit.

As an aside, as a Warrant I've run the stands program, run scheduling, Functional Check flights/maint. program, safety program etc. Not throwing stones or quibbling. Just looking for the difference in duties you had as a Naval Aviator in the unit.

rickair7777
11-04-2017, 09:31 AM
So what makes an O-3 IP in a Navy unit different than a W-3 IP in an Army unit? Different responsibilities? Teach, Maintain Stands records, manage unit training program, run CFC and or voting or EO program on the side. Would a Navy IP not do this too? Honest question as I've never been in a Navy unit.

As an aside, as a Warrant I've run the stands program, run scheduling, Functional Check flights/maint. program, safety program etc. Not throwing stones or quibbling. Just looking for the difference in duties you had as a Naval Aviator in the unit.

It's not about the current duties, it's about future requirements. In an ideal world (from the Navy's perspective) the O-3 will go to grad school after the tour, then DH, joint staff, then XO/CO, maybe another graduate degree, O6, major command, then command a strike group as an O7. Navy wants a large pool at the O3 level to feed that pipeline, to account for attrition. They also selfishly want to have more fully qualified candidates than they actually need, vice having to place marginal candidates in command billets. If it costs a little more in base pay, so be it.

Again it's force structure difference, has nothing to do with flying or middle-management ability. The army has a gazillion infantry, armor, and arty officers to feed their leadership pipeline.

KA350Driver
11-04-2017, 03:35 PM
The Navy/AF need pilots in senior staff and leadership jobs which cannot be filled by warrants.

Different services, different structural needs.

They have way too many unnecessary senior staff/leadership positions to begin with. Thatís the problem, not the lack of officers to fill them.

rickair7777
11-05-2017, 08:19 AM
They have way too many unnecessary senior staff/leadership positions to begin with. Thatís the problem, not the lack of officers to fill them.

Maybe. But the navy knows that you need shore-rotation positions to allow folks to catch up on their lives after a three-year sea tour. Many of those positions are relatively light duty for the pay (used to be, but not so much anymore) but a necessary cost of doing business.

AF may be struggling to come to terms with that since sustained, routine hardship deployments are relatively new to them.

Hobbit64
11-05-2017, 01:16 PM
Maybe. But the navy knows that you need shore-rotation positions to allow folks to catch up on their lives after a three-year sea tour. Many of those positions are relatively light duty for the pay (used to be, but not so much anymore) but a necessary cost of doing business.

AF may be struggling to come to terms with that since sustained, routine hardship deployments are relatively new to them.

Do you have direct knowledge of Army Avn OP's over the last 15 years?? A continuous rotation of 1 year in theater /1Year Conus (when equipment is rebuilt and PME is completed). Reserve/Guard are 1/3...along with rebuilding the civilian career and PME

Castle Bravo
11-05-2017, 01:40 PM
AF may be struggling to come to terms with that since sustained, routine hardship deployments are relatively new to them.

You're kiddin', right?
AF has been flying a combat mission ATO every day (EVERY-day) since August, 1990.
Desert Shield
Desert Storm
Operation Northern/Southern Watch
Kosovo
Afcrapistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria
Operation Noble Eagle (CONUS CAP)

We just went over 10,000 days of continuous, armed combat flight operations around the globe.

Some of these are 4 month rotations, most are 6, many are 12. It takes a toll, and the ability to fly commercial, double your salary, without getting shot at, is a huge attraction. With the exception of Docs and Naval Aviators, I can't think of other MOS/Jobs where you can do that.

navigatro
11-06-2017, 11:37 AM
With the exception of Docs and Naval Aviators, I can't think of other MOS/Jobs where you can do that.

Stripper....

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 02:49 PM
Do you have direct knowledge of Army Avn OP's over the last 15 years?? A continuous rotation of 1 year in theater /1Year Conus (when equipment is rebuilt and PME is completed). Reserve/Guard are 1/3...along with rebuilding the civilian career and PME

I said AF, not army.

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 03:00 PM
You're kiddin', right?
AF has been flying a combat mission ATO every day (EVERY-day) since August, 1990.
Desert Shield
Desert Storm
Operation Northern/Southern Watch
Kosovo
Afcrapistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria
Operation Noble Eagle (CONUS CAP)

We just went over 10,000 days of continuous, armed combat flight operations around the globe.

Yeah but the AF has only been doing it for 25 years, on and off. They have not adapted culturally or organizationally to that norm. When I entered the military a AF deployment typically lasted no longer than the fuel onboard. Worst case maybe a year in RoK.

The Navy has been doing it for centuries. Manning and personnel rotation is adapted accordingly.

And I'm not trying to say AF peeps aren't DEPLOYING, of course they are. I'm saying that they have morale (and therefore retention) issues because they don't seem to be doing it right. The AF expects traditional career paths, and if an arbitrarily assigned deployment gets in the way of your career development or personal life, it seems that's on you to deal with. You hear stories all the time of folks being punished in rankings because they didn't do X,Y,Z... while they were deployed.

In the Navy you get professionally rewarded for deploying (combat or not), punished for avoiding deployment, and typically an opportunity for relatively light duty after the sea tour (but if you're fast track, better not take too much light duty).

Castle Bravo
11-06-2017, 03:34 PM
Yeah but the AF has only been doing it for 25 years, on and off. They have not adapted culturally or organizationally to that norm.

Eh, that's because we keep EXPECTING it to end...someday. It's like the goal post that keeps getting moved. Or Lucy and Charlie Brown's football (that's more accurate).

What I like about the Navy, is it's all about Leadership at Sea. Nothing else matters. What a concept.
In the AF? It's all about PME/school, and oh, don't dick up anything while you're in command...

2old2fly
11-06-2017, 07:39 PM
I have a friend who went back on active duty after retiring and it was a great deal. He was hired by Continental and was a first officer on the 737, junior, on reserve in Newark, and making squat the first couple of years. He went on extended military leave for a few years, got a big pay raise, didn't have to put up with being low man on the totem pole, added to his retirement, and came back to work for United, not junior, making big bucks plus a bigger retirement. Sometimes it takes a while for the grass to really be greener on the other side of the fence.

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 03:07 AM
The Army has the "luxury" of Warrant Officers. The Air Force is too stubborn to entertain that idea.

USAR alone is short about 800 WOs (TPUs). The Army has their own problems with pilot retention. People are leaving in droves because the BS creep has gotten unbearable.

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 03:13 AM
Don't get hung up on semantics. They're still paid considerably less than field grade officers, which is to say it makes civilian pay even better than from the vantage point of an FGO. And that IS the point, whether it offends people's sensitivities or not. The lack of traction regarding WO flyers in the AF boils down to $$$ and rational economic incentives, and not organizational minutiae between commissioned vs warrant like the army.

Warrant Officers CW2 through CW5 are commissioned ranks. CW3-CW5 are field officer grades. Definitely a pay gap. There's actually VIP W4/W5 parking at the JB MDL Commissary. We get more respect from the AF than our own Army types, lol.

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 03:17 AM
Rough math shows about a $2000 difference per month, not including flt pay...
I'm curious what you mean re: the bolded text. An O4 doesn't make $2000 more than a W4 with same TIG. Pay difference is about $900 bucks (20 year comparison). Flight pay is the same WO or RLO in the Army.

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 03:21 AM
They have way too many unnecessary senior staff/leadership positions to begin with. Thatís the problem, not the lack of officers to fill them.

THIS^^^^^^^^^

I have been in the USAR since 1991. Even though USAR aviation is slightly smaller now as compared to 1991 the level of command structure has increased 300%. It's ludicrous and talk about fraud, waste, and abuse...

Hobbit64
11-07-2017, 03:25 AM
An O4 doesn't make $2000 more than a W4 with same TIG each. Flight pay is the same WO or RLO in the Army.

Does Flt Pay not taper off for the RLO at 18 years?

crewdawg
11-07-2017, 03:54 AM
I have a friend who went back on active duty after retiring and it was a great deal. He was hired by Continental and was a first officer on the 737, junior, on reserve in Newark, and making squat the first couple of years. He went on extended military leave for a few years, got a big pay raise, didn't have to put up with being low man on the totem pole, added to his retirement, and came back to work for United, not junior, making big bucks plus a bigger retirement. Sometimes it takes a while for the grass to really be greener on the other side of the fence.

A LOT has changed since your friend went back on AD. Ops tempo is through the roof, morale is through the floor, more with less is out of control and the idea that we should all be choir boys has taken a strong hold. I've been in the ANG over 17 years and the change has been dramatic in the last 6-9 years. Couple that with the fact that I take a MASSIVE paycut when I have to go on orders, I doubt you'll see many takers. I think this is just a step in the direction of stop loss.



Does Flt Pay not taper off for the RLO at 18 years?

22 years of aviation service is when flight pay (ACIP) starts to go down.

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 04:14 AM
A LOT has changed since your friend went back on AD. Ops tempo is through the roof, morale is through the floor, more with less is out of control and the idea that we should all be choir boys has taken a strong hold. I've been in the ANG over 17 years and the change has been dramatic in the last 6-9 years. Couple that with the fact that I take a MASSIVE paycut when I have to go on orders, I doubt you'll see many takers. I think this is just a step in the direction of stop loss.





22 years of aviation service is when flight pay (ACIP) starts to go down.

Your "choir boy" inference is strong with the truth. My own retirement can't come quick enough because of it.

Sputnik
11-07-2017, 05:39 AM
A LOT has changed since your friend went back on AD. Ops tempo is through the roof, morale is through the floor, more with less is out of control and the idea that we should .....

Not denying any of that, but starting airline pay is also a helluv a lot better than it used to be. Wasnt Continental $30, and had to wait 6 months to get health insurance?

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 06:52 AM
Not denying any of that, but starting airline pay is also a helluv a lot better than it used to be. Wasnt Continental $30, and had to wait 6 months to get health insurance?

Yup, sure was. If you got PGUM you got a few more donuts out of the deal.

ItnStln
11-07-2017, 07:15 AM
Warrant Officers CW2 through CW5 are commissioned ranks. CW3-CW5 are field officer grades. Definitely a pay gap. There's actually VIP W4/W5 parking at the JB MDL Commissary. We get more respect from the AF than our own Army types, lol.

CW3 is really a field officer grade?

Gundriver64
11-07-2017, 07:25 AM
CW3 is really a field officer grade?

It is. I don't necessarily agree with it.

crewdawg
11-07-2017, 07:34 AM
Not denying any of that, but starting airline pay is also a helluv a lot better than it used to be. Wasnt Continental $30, and had to wait 6 months to get health insurance?

Ya, that's what I meant when I said, A LOT has changed. I could have sworn I had a sentence in there about how much better the contracts are now...must have deleted it on accident.

Anyway, on our lowest paying fleet (717) 2nd year pay, I would equal my mil pay...with more time off and a metric crap ton less BS. As a 4 year guy, I deploy soon and I'll be taking ~35-40% pay cut to go on orders. I have lots of 717 Captains junior to me, even in my base, if I had taken that, it would be closer to 45-50% paycut.

About the only people I see taking this offer are the guys that are just short of retirement or those who think they'll be able to snag an O-6 retirement.



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