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View Full Version : Hand Flying policy


Arturito
10-04-2017, 06:33 AM
Hello everyone,

It's not a secret a lot of companies prohibit manual flying as much as possible, especially asian and middle-eastern companies.
In Europe, it looks like it's rather a "it depends" approach based on company culture/weather/crew fatigue and captain's decision.

What's the policy/rule in US airlines ?
Feel free to share if you have info about legacies/major/lcc and even regional airlines (I dont want to create a double topic in the regional subforum)

Cheers

P.S. We're obviously talking about Take-off/climb and approach, not cruise in RVSM airspace. ;)


sourdough44
10-04-2017, 06:42 AM
The only time one really needs to be on autopilot is doing an autoland or in RVSM airspace.

Most hand fly after takeoff up to 18-20k or so, of course that varies widely. There is no company directives(with us) on when the autopilot has to come on.

When descending, weather may be a factor, plus you load up the other, non-flying pilot some with working the MCP panel and watching things more closely.

There is no average on when the A/P comes off. With a visual approach, maybe 10 miles & 3000', again varies widely. When something extra is planned, the flying pilot often mentions ahead of time that they would like to do extended hand flying.

I've had friends that have flown in the Mideast, seemed to say it was a lot more regimented dealing with the A/P.

PotatoChip
10-04-2017, 08:04 AM
Autopilot - RNAV departures, IMC approaches, I'm tired.
Off - "Cleared for the visual". Climbing usually to about 10,000, unless I'm just flying straight to a fix 80 miles away.

That about covers it.


AZFlyer
10-04-2017, 08:26 AM
At my small regional that operates easy to hand-fly 30 year old, steam gauge turboprops, we unsurprisingly have lots of hand flying here. On short legs in good weather with everything normal I'll often hand fly the whole leg from takeoff to touch down. Otherwise usually up to cruise altitude and then again when reaching the terminal environment.

I'll definitely miss flying this airplane once its gone. Hand flying super short visual approaches and being able to easily turn off the runway in under 2000 feet is always fun.

As far as company policy, automation is encouraged in general, but occasional hand-flying is also encouraged to maintain proficiency.

Riverside
10-04-2017, 09:16 AM
The USA is God's gift to aviation. ;)

ecam
10-04-2017, 10:11 AM
I hand fly the Airbus as much as I can. Usually up to 10,000, then as soon as cleared for the visual approach for sure. One of the best flying planes I've flown actually. A joy to hand fly.

Std Deviation
10-04-2017, 10:54 AM
2nd transcon red eye in a week with a dawn landing into the sun? Off at 500'. Or lower.:eek: Commute to catch? Medium brakes, max reverse...

I take into consideration the airspace and loading up the other pilot as well. Our manual recommends - but does not mandate - we go on AP at minimum activation altitude when taking off from Burbank for instance. So I'll do that at 200'. I guess the company figures if one quits on the A320 the computer will do a better job.

Std Deviation
10-04-2017, 10:59 AM
The USA is God's gift to aviation. ;)

Which God?:D

Al Czervik
10-04-2017, 11:35 AM
I hand fly to 400’ and down from 200’

qball
10-04-2017, 01:29 PM
I hand fly to 400’ and down from 200’

You sir are an over achiever. I'm exhausted by 300'.

Pogey Bait
10-04-2017, 01:47 PM
I hand fly the Airbus as much as I can. Usually up to 10,000, then as soon as cleared for the visual approach for sure. One of the best flying planes I've flown actually. A joy to hand fly.

Once I am cleaned up and have made all crossings restrictions on the SID I let the plane fly it's self. Flying an Airbus (in my opinion) to 10,000 is useless. I agree though while getting dirty again, it's prudent to turn off both the autopilot and autothrust every once and awhile; that way you remember how to fly....well sort of.

Amen. God dern' right red, white, and blue! :D

Anchuskydrvr
10-05-2017, 07:03 PM
Here at UAL most guys/gals hand fly a lot on the bus, I can’t remember the last time I landed with the auto thrust on(other than auto landing or sim) most folks turn the a/p on climbing through 18k and the a/p and a/t descending back through 18k on 90% on approaches and landings.

ACF

Arturito
10-06-2017, 02:49 AM
I'm glad to read most airlines allow their pilots to choose when and what level of automation they want to use.

mike734
10-06-2017, 11:26 AM
I find most of my FO's hand fly to about 18,000 feet. When asked, they don't have a particular reason why FL180 is some sort of magic altitude, they just seem to think that is an appropriate altitude to, "turn the motion off."

I would argue that down low is the most important time to be on AP. I generally put it on around 1000' and spend more time looking outside. I can fly the AP (737) very smoothly, more smoothly than I can hand fly. Sure, if I really try, I can hand fly smoothly but it's too much effort. Good AP technique takes practice and I believe the AP can be smoother the vast majority of pilots.

hostagetofortun
10-06-2017, 02:50 PM
Back in the old days, auto pilots came in to being simply to keep the passengers coming back to buy another ticket. The dutch roll characteristics of the old stuff used to make them sick. That was about the only reason the airlines wanted them turned on. I think the reason 18,000 ft seems to be the magic number is/was because so much (about what? 90%) of the airspace up to that altitude was uncontrolled and/or simply controlled; but not positive controlled so there was a lot of GA flying all through the space. With our good ole USA see and avoid and all the amount of aircraft in the space it was habit to be right on the stick.
We would of course get in some "trouble" for it today but all the airspace up to 18,000 was known as Indian Country. So you need to be right on positive control. Still need to be as far as I'm concerned.

nimslow
10-06-2017, 06:36 PM
I find most of my FO's hand fly to about 18,000 feet. When asked, they don't have a particular reason why FL180 is some sort of magic altitude, they just seem to think that is an appropriate altitude to, "turn the motion off."

I would argue that down low is the most important time to be on AP. I generally put it on around 1000' and spend more time looking outside. I can fly the AP (737) very smoothly, more smoothly than I can hand fly. Sure, if I really try, I can hand fly smoothly but it's too much effort. Good AP technique takes practice and I believe the AP can be smoother the vast majority of pilots.

I'm with you on this. At my shop, I can't remember the last time I saw anyone hand fly above 10K, usually not anywhere near there. Anywhere near the terminal area, the automation is usually much better than we are, and why fly straight and level up to 18?

labbats
10-06-2017, 06:52 PM
If it is a Class C or D (or uncontrolled) airport I will turn on the autopilot as soon as I can to help see and avoid.

I almost never hand fly above 10,000 because all aircraft in the USA are required to have transponders above that and the plane flies better than I do. Passengers appreciate that.

dmeg13021
10-06-2017, 07:18 PM
To each their own. If you can't handfly better than the auto pilot, only one way to get better.....

I keep automation on in high workloads or when I'm tired; like to see what George is doing for pitch and power on a late night gusty approach before I take over. But as for guidance, if it ain't RVSM, do what you want. You're a pilot, right?

Dolphinflyer
10-06-2017, 07:53 PM
To each their own. If you can't handfly better than the auto pilot, only one way to get better.....

I keep automation on in high workloads or when I'm tired; like to see what George is doing for pitch and power on a late night gusty approach before I take over. But as for guidance, if it ain't RVSM, do what you want. You're a pilot, right?

Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.

Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.

Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?

IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.

tomgoodman
10-06-2017, 08:19 PM
Back in the old days, auto pilots came in to being simply to keep the passengers coming back to buy another ticket. The dutch roll characteristics of the old stuff used to make them sick. That was about the only reason the airlines wanted them turned on. I think the reason 18,000 ft seems to be the magic number is/was because so much (about what? 90%) of the airspace up to that altitude was uncontrolled and/or simply controlled; but not positive controlled so there was a lot of GA flying all through the space. With our good ole USA see and avoid and all the amount of aircraft in the space it was habit to be right on the stick.
We would of course get in some "trouble" for it today but all the airspace up to 18,000 was known as Indian Country. So you need to be right on positive control. Still need to be as far as I'm concerned.

True geezers will remember when the floor of Positive Control Airspace was 18,000 east of Sedalia KS, and somewhat higher west of there, probably because of radar coverage limitations.

Freight Dawg
10-06-2017, 10:18 PM
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.

Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.

Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?

IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.

Amen, brother!

pokey9554
10-07-2017, 06:22 AM
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.

Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.

Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?

IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.

First of all, I think the sausages would get tangled up in the trim wheel and sling around hitting your dog in the snout. I wouldn't want to do that to your dog.

Second, amen! The fastest button pushers cannot fix any problem faster than the chick/dude/non gender specific/non binary human who just turns the automation off.

foumanchu
10-07-2017, 07:10 AM
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.

Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.

Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?

IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.

Here is my train of thought on autopilot usage, for what it's worth.

When people want to go fly and have fun and to better themselves as pilots, do they see how high they can climb and maintain the best climb speed all the way to altitude or do they do practice approaches and landings to perfect their skill? What is so hard and or enjoyable about hand flying to cruise? Are you really better than George? I doubt it, and most of the time I can tell when the autopilot isn't on because turns often feel like turns on a train. What about busy airports with lots of traffic to look for and complex departures to fly? I would think again that George is better than the average joe about maintaining proper course and if you are concentrating on flying, you aren't looking outside as much.


Now, when on descent/approach, I can see wanting to hand fly. Again, flying a perfect approach and nailing the landing is fun. If the autopilot does all the work, what gratification do you get from it? These are also the more difficult flying skills which one would need in the event you do need to hand fly if there are issues and you have to turn off the AP.

......

freezingflyboy
10-07-2017, 07:47 AM
My personal hand flying policy?

Departure:
AP on above 200' AGL (A/C limitation) and when it's not fun anymore (judgment call). Couple of turns after lift off? Sure, I'll hand fly it up to 10,000. Flying 60 miles in a straight line, eh, AP on once established to the fix, airplane trimmed and I'm bored.

Arrival:
AP off when established on the approach, assuming it's VMC and the workload for the other pilot isn't especially high.

sailingfun
10-07-2017, 08:27 AM
Here is my train of thought on autopilot usage, for what it's worth.

When people want to go fly and have fun and to better themselves as pilots, do they see how high they can climb and maintain the best climb speed all the way to altitude or do they do practice approaches and landings to perfect their skill? What is so hard and or enjoyable about hand flying to cruise? Are you really better than George? I doubt it, and most of the time I can tell when the autopilot isn't on because turns often feel like turns on a train. What about busy airports with lots of traffic to look for and complex departures to fly? I would think again that George is better than the average joe about maintaining proper course and if you are concentrating on flying, you aren't looking outside as much.


Now, when on descent/approach, I can see wanting to hand fly. Again, flying a perfect approach and nailing the landing is fun. If the autopilot does all the work, what gratification do you get from it? These are also the more difficult flying skills which one would need in the event you do need to hand fly if there are issues and you have to turn off the AP.

......

What happens when you go to engage the autopilot at 400 feet to fly that complicated departure and it fails to engage? Will you be competent to hand fly it without prior practice? What happens if you are dispatched with the autopilot inop? Will you be competent to fly the flight without practice?

labbats
10-07-2017, 10:02 AM
What happens when you go to engage the autopilot at 400 feet to fly that complicated departure and it fails to engage? Will you be competent to hand fly it without prior practice? What happens if you are dispatched with the autopilot inop? Will you be competent to fly the flight without practice?

How does hand flying an airliner above 10000 feet make you a better prepared pilot? Or anything other than something that your First Officer or Captain is forced to monitor due to your choice?

I agree it is good below 10000 feet time to time, but above I find it annoying. And most passengers do too.

MKUltra
10-07-2017, 11:11 AM
I like it when my FOs hand fly... if they are ok, IDC... but if they are shotty.. let's put George on.

When I'm PM it keeps me engaged more I feel. All my altitude busts and and wrong ways were due to George.. I have a very finicky George on my aircraft.

I try to keep my coordinated turns up to snuff especially since my aircraft has different roll spoiler involvement at different airspeeds. George doesn't know how to keep the ball centered..

When I'm tired I try to handily more as again I feel more engaged and does help me with the boredom...

I also manually tune all available navaids as well.. I'm just a dork.

SpeedyVagabond
10-07-2017, 11:32 AM
To each their own. If you can't handfly better than the auto pilot, only one way to get better.....

I keep automation on in high workloads or when I'm tired; like to see what George is doing for pitch and power on a late night gusty approach before I take over. But as for guidance, if it ain't RVSM, do what you want. You're a pilot, right?

Amen. I hand fly all the time. I can say with cerainty that the smoothest right seat people both on and off the automation at my shop are the ones who hand fly most frequently. Their landings are generally much better as well. I agree that if you're not as smooth as George you should turn him off and hand fly. Every one of us should be smoother than him.

HalinTexas
10-08-2017, 06:45 AM
As an instructor on the B737 and having flown it with 6 airlines in four countries, I generally find that those that complain about 737 automation don't know how to use it. Sometimes, it's the company's fault for not adequately teaching it. Mostly, it's the pilot's fault for not trying to learn it.

Sliceback
10-08-2017, 07:04 AM
Using the bank angle limiter and V/S, and pointing at a fix and zeroing out any offset before engaging a higher level of automation, can make the full automation mode much smoother.

The 737 full automation mode is similar to the Airbus 320 family in its handling characteristics - 'unload, roll, and pull!' is the protocol accelerating out of 10,000' and getting a turn.

tomgoodman
10-08-2017, 07:09 AM
As an instructor on the B737 and having flown it with 6 airlines in four countries, I generally find that those that complain about 737 automation don't know how to use it. Sometimes, it's the company's fault for not adequately teaching it. Mostly, it's the pilot's fault for not trying to learn it.

The MadDog automation was a piece of cake, (if you were proficient in Chinese crossword puzzles). :D

galaxy flyer
10-08-2017, 08:04 AM
True geezers will remember when the floor of Positive Control Airspace was 18,000 east of Sedalia KS, and somewhat higher west of there, probably because of radar coverage limitations.

And us true geezers call it by the correct name—PCA. And the New York TCA.

GF

UAL T38 Phlyer
10-08-2017, 08:24 AM
I knew Sperry invented the first practical autopilot. Here's an excerpt explaining the origin of "George." (I had thought, incorrectly, that Sperry's given name was George):


The first man to fly in a Sperry autopilot aircraft, Navy Lt. Patrick N. L. Bellinger, would go on to pilot the Curtiss NC-1 for the world’s first successful trans-Atlantic crossing in 1918. Over the years, Bellinger and many other pilots would take to calling the Sperry Autopilot system “George” — a colloquialism for the seemingly magical, invisible copilot that had joined them in the cockpit of their aircraft. To this day, the term “George” is used unofficially to represent the autopilot system.


Turns out he died a few years later, trying to cross the English Channel on a foggy/overcast day, relying on his autopilot. :(

Sperry took off into the fog for a crossing of the English Channel on December 23, 1923 — no doubt, he planned on relying on his autopilot to get him through. He never arrived in France for his Christmas holiday. It wasn’t until three weeks later, on January 11, 1924, that his remains were found floating in the English Channel. It was a sad end for a truly extraordinary aviator and inventor.


And, a humorous anecdote:

Lawrence Sperry was known as quite a ladies’ man and had a penchant for wild parties — he was single, handsome and wealthy, a potent combination. Even there, his autopilot had a role — and one day in November 1916 he demonstrated his trust in the system when he took a married socialite, Mrs. Waldo Polk, for a training flight offshore near Babylon, New York. Turning over the controls to his autopilot, the two proceeded to engage in something of an aerial tryst. Mrs. Polk’s husband was away in France volunteering for France as an ambulance driver during the war, leaving her “unattended” and, with the wealthy Lawrence Sperry close at hand, she decided to take up flying lessons.

The day didn’t end well when Sperry accidentally bumped the gyro platform while “involved” with Mrs. Polk. The seaplane then flew a descending curve dictated by the misaligned gyro instead of staying on course. It crashed into the waters of the bay. Luckily, two duck hunters were nearby and paddled over to rescue the naked pair. Initially, Sperry maintained that the force of impact had ripped off their clothes. However, his reputation as something of a playboy led one tabloid to run the more accurate headline, “AERIAL PETTING – ENDS IN WETTING”. Later, Sperry would confide to a friend that the story was accurate. Mrs. Polk ultimately qualified for her pilot certificate — without any further autopilot incidents.

Some things never change.... :D

hostagetofortun
10-08-2017, 08:51 AM
And us true geezers call it by the correct name—PCA. And the New York TCA.

GF
Not sure of your point here; yes of course we all abbreviated it to PCA.
But although I cannot recall the exact timing of the promulgation of TCA's (as PCA) I do know that I was flying into both New York and Chicago in the late 60's with NO clearance.
I also remember the FAA trying several times to introduce TCA's and finally succeeding by timing the comment period over the holidays. There was even a newspaper article at the time comparing the mail going to the FAA as comparable to mail going in to the North Pole. Each circumstance generated less than the desired outcome.

Dolphinflyer
10-08-2017, 08:52 AM
As an instructor on the B737 and having flown it with 6 airlines in four countries, I generally find that those that complain about 737 automation don't know how to use it. Sometimes, it's the company's fault for not adequately teaching it. Mostly, it's the pilot's fault for not trying to learn it.


My reference to the 737 involved it's finesse. not it's capabilities. As Slice mentioned, there are ways to fly "George" smoother. If they could somehow smooth out the autothrottles, it would seem to improve 75% of the rough edges. Watching an autopilot trim 5 turns down then 5 turns up within 1 second leads me to believe the programming budget was cut at Boeing or even worse, sub contracted the job across the street to Microsoft. ;)

As for hand flying, despite my earlier comments, I'm not hand flying through 150 miles of +/- altitude and variable speed gates on a STAR, or blasted tired at the end of a long day. It will vary on conditions of course.

hostagetofortun
10-08-2017, 09:09 AM
Reminds me of old story;
Flying in to O'hare late 60's (No clearance)
Me to tower: Comanche Triple 1 Pop, landing O'hare with xxxx
Tower: Comanche Tripe 1 Pop, have you ever heard of a VFR holding pattern?
Me: No Sir
Tower: Do you see that Howard Johnson's over there with the orange roof about 3 miles NE?
Me: Yes Sir
Tower: Well you go hang around over there till I call you back.
Me: Yes Sir

julietalpha
10-08-2017, 09:47 AM
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.

Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.

Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?

IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.

The bolded is priceless.

CRJoperator
10-09-2017, 06:44 AM
Autopilot - RNAV departures, IMC approaches, I'm tired.
Off - "Cleared for the visual". Climbing usually to about 10,000, unless I'm just flying straight to a fix 80 miles away.

That about covers it.

RNAV DEP? Why? Just follow the flight di director.

hilltopflyer
10-09-2017, 06:58 AM
RNAV DEP? Why? Just follow the flight di director.

My old operator required autopilot for rnav departures. Not sure why but I like that I don't have to anymore.

jcountry
10-09-2017, 09:47 AM
I hand fly the Airbus as much as I can. Usually up to 10,000, then as soon as cleared for the visual approach for sure. One of the best flying planes I've flown actually. A joy to hand fly.

If you think you are hand flying an Airbus, you are mistaken.

vessbot
10-09-2017, 10:19 AM
If you think you are hand flying an Airbus, you are mistaken.

Then you'd have to say the same thing about the F-16, which has the same control law.

SpeedyVagabond
10-09-2017, 11:23 AM
If you think you are hand flying an Airbus, you are mistaken.

I think I sat next to you once. You're that guy who told me airliners weren't designed to be hand flown. And you set out trying to prove it with every landing.

80ktsClamp
10-09-2017, 12:55 PM
If you think you are hand flying an Airbus, you are mistaken.

If you fly an airbus currently, I don't want my family on your plane. :eek:

jcountry
10-09-2017, 04:23 PM
I think I sat next to you once. You're that guy who told me airliners weren't designed to be hand flown. And you set out trying to prove it with every landing.

I bet you are one of those fun guys who punches off the AT every landing too....

So much fun. So many printouts after all your approaches.

And really..... What's the point of hand-flying the damn thing? It doesn't have a "feel." You really aren't doing anything except following the FD. Whoop Tee Doo!

80ktsClamp
10-09-2017, 04:35 PM
I bet you are one of those fun guys who punches off the AT every landing too....

So much fun. So many printouts after all your approaches.

And really..... What's the point of hand-flying the damn thing? It doesn't have a "feel." You really aren't doing anything except following the FD. Whoop Tee Doo!

Printouts after turning off the AT? What kind of ham fisted gorillas do you fly with?

The ones at our airline that leave it on every landing and think there is no feel are the scary ones that end up getting into trouble. That scan atrophies QUICK when you operate the way you describe. Turn off the FD's too and fly a visual pattern... you might find she even has a feel to her.

CA1900
10-09-2017, 05:04 PM
For whatever reason, my airline REQUIRES the AT to come off when the autopilot does.

Hossharris
10-09-2017, 05:19 PM
Maddog.

I hand fly a lot. Whether I want to or not.

Pogey Bait
10-10-2017, 07:13 AM
For whatever reason, my airline REQUIRES the AT to come off when the autopilot does.

Courious...what airline?

80ktsClamp
10-10-2017, 07:54 AM
For whatever reason, my airline REQUIRES the AT to come off when the autopilot does.

Follow up... what kind of airplane??

CA1900
10-10-2017, 07:56 AM
Courious...what airline?


Southwest 737. Hand flying with AT is ok for takeoff and initial climb, but otherwise the AP has to be on it you're using the AT.

80ktsClamp
10-10-2017, 07:59 AM
Southwest 737. Hand flying with AT is ok for takeoff and initial climb, but otherwise the AP has to be on it you're using the AT.


Weird......

mike734
10-10-2017, 09:07 AM
Southwest 737. Hand flying with AT is ok for takeoff and initial climb, but otherwise the AP has to be on it you're using the AT.

Same at Alaska.

tomgoodman
10-10-2017, 09:09 AM
Boeings are hand flown,
Airbii are pinkie flown,
MadDogs are paw flown. :D

CA1900
10-10-2017, 09:09 AM
It wasn't mentioned in training, but I'm thinking this might be to prevent any possibility of repeating this Turkish Airlines crash:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

80ktsClamp
10-10-2017, 09:50 AM
It wasn't mentioned in training, but I'm thinking this might be to prevent any possibility of repeating this Turkish Airlines crash:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

Hmm... the false flare thing is only an issue on an ILS, plus wasn't the AP on??

edit: I verified via the final report that the AP and AT were engaged up until the end on Turkish 1951. Turkish 1951 is why you want to have both APs on when flying a coupled ILS.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/2009/20090225-0_B738_TC-JGE.pdf

CA1900
10-10-2017, 03:17 PM
Hmm, then I'm not sure why the no AT/handfly policy exists.

e6bpilot
10-10-2017, 04:01 PM
SWA didn’t even have working autothrottles until fairly recently. I am also not sure why the policy. I always thought it was a 200 holdover.

Thrust Normal
10-10-2017, 06:06 PM
I think that policy is an old holdover policy with Boeing. I think it was primarily driven by the autothrottles trying to keep up with pitch changes hand flying the airplane. I think most companies have taken it out. But it's generally in Boeing produced flight manuals.

jrmyl
10-10-2017, 09:44 PM
We also have that policy with the 767 when hand flying the approach. AT must be off to prevent "approach coupling." Other than that we have no hand flying policy other than to use it in high workload situations as much as possible to lower the workload for the other pilot.

Me personally, I hand fly to about 5000 and then again around 1000 on approach. I figure that is enough anymore.

Cookie Puss
10-11-2017, 06:28 AM
We hand fly the 777 with autothrottles engaged.

ShyGuy
10-11-2017, 09:25 AM
Hmm... the false flare thing is only an issue on an ILS, plus wasn't the AP on??

edit: I verified via the final report that the AP and AT were engaged up until the end on Turkish 1951. Turkish 1951 is why you want to have both APs on when flying a coupled ILS.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/2009/20090225-0_B738_TC-JGE.pdf

Curious what difference 2 APs on would have made in the 737 on that approach? Their RA #1 was 0 so the airplane entered flare mode and that went unnoticed by the crew. Even on a Bus with 2 AP on it would give them CATIII dual, but an erroneous RA#1 can still trigger a flare green situation with the thrust going back and pitch up.

cactusmike
10-15-2017, 06:55 PM
I think that policy is an old holdover policy with Boeing. I think it was primarily driven by the autothrottles trying to keep up with pitch changes hand flying the airplane. I think most companies have taken it out. But it's generally in Boeing produced flight manuals.


We had that at AWA on the 757 for sure. Guys in JFK look at me like I've got 5 eyes when I tell them that. AA policy not the same.

Everyone I fly with hand flies up through 180, usually into the mid 20s. Approaches are a 50/50 mix for them, 100% for me unless it's below cat 1 mins. I know the a/p can do the job, I need to make sure I can as well.

Sliceback
10-16-2017, 06:31 AM
We had that at AWA on the 757 for sure. Guys in JFK look at me like I've got 5 eyes when I tell them that. AA policy not the same.

Everyone I fly with hand flies up through 180, usually into the mid 20s. Approaches are a 50/50 mix for them, 100% for me unless it's below cat 1 mins. I know the a/p can do the job, I need to make sure I can as well.

AA 757/767 Manual used to say "highly recommended to disconnect a/T's while hand flying." Removed about a decade(?) ago.

MantisToboggan
10-16-2017, 09:15 AM
When hand flying a departure, I've had some guys make a "what are ya going back to the schoolhouse soon or something?" comment..... Like going to training is the only time you should be proficient at flying an airplane by hand.

Leveling a jet below 10,000 (and above, for that matter) is a scary proposition for most of my coworkers. Really makes me wonder what happens when the AP is MEL'd and two of these types fly together

C130driver
10-16-2017, 06:22 PM
When hand flying a departure, I've had some guys make a "what are ya going back to the schoolhouse soon or something?" comment..... Like going to training is the only time you should be proficient at flying an airplane by hand.

Leveling a jet below 10,000 (and above, for that matter) is a scary proposition for most of my coworkers. Really makes me wonder what happens when the AP is MEL'd and two of these types fly together

It’s the same type of people who ask “what are you doing? Getting ready for a checkride?”..when you are being procedural. Every flight should be treated like a checkride, just like any given flight may require some actual basic pilot skills.

Dolphinflyer
10-16-2017, 06:58 PM
I'm still somewhat puzzled by the comments that some make admitting that they suck at hand flying, and their solution is to turn on the autopilot so they don't have to demonstrate that they do suck at hand flying instead of making an effort to learn how to fly smoother than a relatively crappy autopilot.

Great example down the road where we will shortly have new hires at the majors with 1500-2000TT that consisted of instructing (not flying for a good amount), a year at a regional where it might be tough to get much hand flying in high density airports and finally the majors where the example is to engage George at 500' AFL and dirty looks from the left seat if the FO attempts to hand fly >10K.

Does that sum it up?

flensr
10-16-2017, 07:10 PM
I think it really depends on the company culture.

With us, even though it's the bus and the AP works great, just about everyone hand-flies the departure while it's still interesting. Engaging AP at the point when all that's left is just driving straight ahead for a long while is fairly normal. Most I've flown with will let the AP handle the pitch changes on approach while configuring, but will disengage AP once the plane is fully configured. Autothrust is a good enough safety feature (yay GS mini) that most leave it engaged until the flare if the winds are squirrely, but many will disenage autothrust for the practice if conditions seem reasonable.

But, that's at one smallish airline that started out as a cargo and charter outfit... I can easily see how other companies would have different approaches to things, and it's also obvious how other airframes with different autopilot / autothrust designs demand a different way of doing business. Habits formed in one plane carry forward, and nobody is immune to the threat of negative transfer when switching airframes.

Dolphinflyer
10-16-2017, 08:29 PM
flensr,

Excellent points. It's a wide subjective discussion. I too will turn the AP on at the min alt on departure and arrival for whatever reason and for some unknown length of time.

I guess the simplest catch all would be for a pilot to be comfortable hand flying smoothly in all possible situations without too much thought and that it would be unnoticeable to the passengers.

Xray678
10-18-2017, 06:28 PM
I recently did an SAQ with another captain. I flew the leg home. Clicked off the autopilot at about 7000 on the downwind. Went through clouds from about 6000 to 5000. Once we got to the gate the other captain said, nice approach and landing, but we are not supposed to manually fly until we are VFR.......

My response was first learn what our manuals say, and second, the day I can’t fly manually through a few clouds and land with a 5000’ ceiling is the day I retire.

Might have been an F bomb in there...I can’t remember��

Too many pilots at the majors are autopilot cripples.

SpeedyVagabond
10-19-2017, 05:52 AM
I'm still somewhat puzzled by the comments that some make admitting that they suck at hand flying, and their solution is to turn on the autopilot so they don't have to demonstrate that they do suck at hand flying instead of making an effort to learn how to fly smoother than a relatively crappy autopilot.

Great example down the road where we will shortly have new hires at the majors with 1500-2000TT that consisted of instructing (not flying for a good amount), a year at a regional where it might be tough to get much hand flying in high density airports and finally the majors where the example is to engage George at 500' AFL and dirty looks from the left seat if the FO attempts to hand fly >10K.

Does that sum it up?

And then they'll eventually upgrade. I expect to see an upward tick in the amount of incidents and accidents per year that we've all worked so hard to drive down. Some just don't have any experience and being baby sat at a regional is insufficient to gain much in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong

MantisToboggan
10-19-2017, 06:10 AM
And then they'll eventually upgrade. I expect to see an upward tick in the amount of incidents and accidents per year that we've all worked so hard to drive down. Some just don't have any experience and being baby sat at a regional is insufficient to gain much in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong

Meh, I disagree. The upgrade times at many regionals are already rock bottom and there are 1000 hour sic guys moving to the left seat. Hasn't changed the stats on accidents.

Unpilot
10-25-2017, 05:25 AM
I believe in the use it or lose it rule here.

Starting on turbine equipment that had no automation at all (DO-228,SA-227)one had to have a quick scan.

Moving to mid level automation (FD/FMS No AT) required less scan.

I find the more I rely on the magic the less competent I am as a pilot.

Quick example:

Flying into LGA for ILS 22 on my current AC if the intercept angle is above some threshold the computer algorithm uses the AC will turn the wrong way initially.

I think what "george" is trying to do is bracket the LOC. However the best "fix" is to not let the damn thing bracket it is to turn off the AP and had fly the AC onto the LOC.

Adlerdriver
10-25-2017, 11:04 AM
Meh, I disagree. The upgrade times at many regionals are already rock bottom and there are 1000 hour sic guys moving to the left seat. Hasn't changed the stats on accidents.
Flawed logic. For one, statistics don't change overnight. Another factor is the high reliability of aircraft systems and engines combined with the quality and capability of most automation.

An inexperienced pilot who regularly relies on automation to cover his shortcomings may never encounter a situation that exposes his weakness. That doesn't mean the situation is acceptable. The law of averages is simply in his favor............until it isn't. Just because foundational flying skills aren't used every day doesn't mean it's okay to let them atrophy or not have them in the first place.

TCASTESTOK
10-30-2017, 06:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10&t=22m23s
AAMP Children of the Magenta hand flying section

krudawg
10-31-2017, 06:50 PM
Hello everyone,

It's not a secret a lot of companies prohibit manual flying as much as possible, especially asian and middle-eastern companies.
In Europe, it looks like it's rather a "it depends" approach based on company culture/weather/crew fatigue and captain's decision.

What's the policy/rule in US airlines ?
Feel free to share if you have info about legacies/major/lcc and even regional airlines (I dont want to create a double topic in the regional subforum)

Cheers

P.S. We're obviously talking about Take-off/climb and approach, not cruise in RVSM airspace. ;)
Most pilots like to hand fly till at least 10k and some like to hand-fly to cruise altitude. I prefer not to hand fly in a congested airport I am unfamiliar with. I've had FO's that will hand fly it from cruise to landing - increases my workload 1000 percent. If an FO turns off the FD to hand fly in an unfamiliar and congested airport, I cringe but will always allow a pilot to hone his/her skill even if it increases my workload. In an emergency, I need an FO who can fly and hand flying increases that skill.

80ktsClamp
11-01-2017, 10:52 AM
Flawed logic. For one, statistics don't change overnight. Another factor is the high reliability of aircraft systems and engines combined with the quality and capability of most automation.

An inexperienced pilot who regularly relies on automation to cover his shortcomings may never encounter a situation that exposes his weakness. That doesn't mean the situation is acceptable. The law of averages is simply in his favor............until it isn't. Just because foundational flying skills aren't used every day doesn't mean it's okay to let them atrophy or not have them in the first place.

AF 447 proved the truth of this in spades...

MantisToboggan
11-06-2017, 08:42 AM
AF 447 proved the truth of this in spades...

CA: 10,988 TT
FO: 6,547 TT

730 days and 15 hours flight time. Over 2 years and 15 hours flight time, I'm sure they had both seen their fair share of stuff

contrails
11-06-2017, 10:06 AM
CA: 10,988 TT
FO: 6,547 TT

730 days and 15 hours flight time. Over 2 years and 15 hours flight time, I'm sure they had both seen their fair share of stuff

The captain's total time is irrelevant since he was on break and they were entering a deep stall by the time he came back up.

How much of the FO's time was in cruise?

And what about the relief FO? Wasn't he the one hauling back on the sidestick?

ItnStln
11-06-2017, 10:34 AM
The captain's total time is irrelevant since he was on break and they were entering a deep stall by the time he came back up.

How much of the FO's time was in cruise?

And what about the relief FO? Wasn't he the one hauling back on the sidestick?

The relief FO had 2,936 hours and he was the pilot flying.
In another thread here someone posted a similar issue with Northwest (http://avherald.com/h?article=41bb9740) where the pilots were able to recover from the incident. I'm not sure how closely related the two incidents are but from the way I read the post they were very similar except the Northwest crew was able to recover from the incident.

Adlerdriver
11-06-2017, 02:39 PM
I'm not sure how closely related the two incidents are but from the way I read the post they were very similar except the Northwest crew was able to recover from the incident.
The first few seconds of the incidents appear closely related. After that they diverge significantly, considering the NW crew was able to do some of that pilot stuff, apply basic pitch and power settings, didn't put the aircraft into a deep stall and kill everyone aboard.

SpeedyVagabond
11-06-2017, 03:45 PM
The first few seconds of the incidents appear closely related. After that they diverge significantly, considering the NW crew was able to do some of that pilot stuff, apply basic pitch and power settings, didn't put the aircraft into a deep stall and kill everyone aboard.

This is basic attitude instrument flying. There is no excuse for airline pilots to ever lose an aircraft in this situation. It demonstrates a deep lack of understanding of systems by the two who were up front when the icing occurred. A good example of why flight times in general are a poor metric for measuring a pilot's skill. 1500 hours of instructing doesn't even come close to equaling a few hundred hours of single pilot 135 time in winter or a military flight program. That's why the ATP knee jerk reaction to Buffalo is just nonsense. It's not the time, it's the experience. And why I said earlier I believe we're going to see an uptick in incidents and accidents.

detpilot
11-07-2017, 02:35 AM
This is basic attitude instrument flying. There is no excuse for airline pilots to ever lose an aircraft in this situation. It demonstrates a deep lack of understanding of systems by the two who were up front when the icing occurred. A good example of why flight times in general are a poor metric for measuring a pilot's skill. 1500 hours of instructing doesn't even come close to equaling a few hundred hours of single pilot 135 time in winter or a military flight program. That's why the ATP knee jerk reaction to Buffalo is just nonsense. It's not the time, it's the experience. And why I said earlier I believe we're going to see an uptick in incidents and accidents.

As someone who has quite literally done all 3 of the above, I disagree. For reference, I instructed first for over 1200 hours, then did 135 freight, then joined the military.

Maybe, since I was doing a mix of vfr and IFR and high performance/complex instruction, my results aren't typical. But I got a solid knowledge base from that, which helped me succeed in part 135 cargo. Night flying in weather with no autopilot every single weeknight, with a company pushing you to go go go was huge, and solidified my stick and rudder skills.

But... The military. I was shocked at how often we weather cancel, and how much we prefer to train on good weather days. Sure, when you deploy to the desert there are a few days of fog and rain a year. But I bet most military jet pilots who have done nothing else have very rarely had to deal with the icing decisions, divert decisions, and other issues that even some instructors are dealing with. So let's quit crapping on the civilian cfi's, not all of them are just beating up the pattern.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

sACKtis
11-07-2017, 02:48 AM
Most pilots like to hand fly till at least 10k and some like to hand-fly to cruise altitude. I prefer not to hand fly in a congested airport I am unfamiliar with. I've had FO's that will hand fly it from cruise to landing - increases my workload 1000 percent. If an FO turns off the FD to hand fly in an unfamiliar and congested airport, I cringe but will always allow a pilot to hone his/her skill even if it increases my workload. In an emergency, I need an FO who can fly and hand flying increases that skill.

Handflying an airbus above 2000' is just retarded. Tapping on a sidestick does not equate to a perishable skill.

ItnStln
11-07-2017, 07:08 AM
The first few seconds of the incidents appear closely related. After that they diverge significantly, considering the NW crew was able to do some of that pilot stuff, apply basic pitch and power settings, didn't put the aircraft into a deep stall and kill everyone aboard.

Thanks for the explanation! Do I understand you to say that the difference between the two incidents started when the Air France crew pulled back on the stick whereas the Nodthwest crew didn't?

Pogey Bait
11-07-2017, 09:58 AM
As someone who has quite literally done all 3 of the above, I disagree. For reference, I instructed first for over 1200 hours, then did 135 freight, then joined the military.

Maybe, since I was doing a mix of vfr and IFR and high performance/complex instruction, my results aren't typical. But I got a solid knowledge base from that, which helped me succeed in part 135 cargo. Night flying in weather with no autopilot every single weeknight, with a company pushing you to go go go was huge, and solidified my stick and rudder skills.

But... The military. I was shocked at how often we weather cancel, and how much we prefer to train on good weather days. Sure, when you deploy to the desert there are a few days of fog and rain a year. But I bet most military jet pilots who have done nothing else have very rarely had to deal with the icing decisions, divert decisions, and other issues that even some instructors are dealing with. So let's quit crapping on the civilian cfi's, not all of them are just beating up the pattern.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk



Nice set of skills to grab from, what did you fly in the military?

SpeedyVagabond
11-07-2017, 10:14 AM
As someone who has quite literally done all 3 of the above, I disagree.

Interesting. I grew up the son of a Navy Vietnam era attack and later medium attack pilot. The Navy cerainly operates in all weather. At least my father's platforms did so I was using his experiences and the expereriences of my own personal acquaintences from that community I've flown with through the years. That certainly is a nice mix of experience you have to draw on. I'll continue to disagree with you however on the value of civilian instructor time alone based on my own many personal observations and lengthy experience in 121 operations.

Adlerdriver
11-07-2017, 11:12 AM
But I bet most military jet pilots who have done nothing else have very rarely had to deal with the icing decisions, divert decisions, and other issues that even some instructors are dealing with. So let's quit crapping on the civilian cfi's, not all of them are just beating up the pattern. I agree that a well trained CFI is gaining valuable experience. However, your comments on the military are too broad brush. Weather, icing, diverts are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to decision making in the wide variety of military missions. But focusing on those for the sake of discussion, sure, some may be able to avoid those situations. Dealing with weather is highly dependent on location. Guys stationed in Vegas or Luke probably rarely have to bother. However, there are plenty of worldwide location where it's a constant factor. Also, VFR or IFR, gas is ALWAYS a factor in a fighter. Every mission you're minutes from a divert if someone takes out your primary runway with a blown tire or takes a cable. I was stationed in Europe for 5 years and if we cancelled because the weather was bad, we never would have flown. I've taken off at mins, popped out at 2K to a clear above, beautiful day, had a great fight and RTB'd to an approach to absolute mins.

Of course there are weather cancels and training on good weather days is always more desirable. The main decision that goes into launching isn't simply bad weather at the base. It is more about is there a mission worth dealing with that bad weather. If none of the airspace is clear, there's not much point in launching. In a gas limited fighter, there's a point where even if the weather in the area is okay, fuel required for a distant alternate makes it pointless to go. However, I've still diverted more times than I can count. So, I think it's safe to say that there are plenty of decision making opportunities and issues, weather related or something else, available for most pilots gaining experience in whatever role they have chosen.

BFMthisA10
11-07-2017, 11:17 AM
But... The military. I was shocked at how often we weather cancel, and how much we prefer to train on good weather days. So, the Military is too risk averse? In training? Seems like the textbook application of ORM. A revenue operation is going to have an entirely different approach to the question, but while wearing a green romper, I’ve never felt unprepared to execute in the worst conditions, or an unnecessary pressure to perform when the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze (training environment).

Adlerdriver
11-07-2017, 11:27 AM
Handflying an airbus above 2000' is just retarded. Tapping on a sidestick does not equate to a perishable skill. IMO, an attitude very common with those who try to find an excuse for maximum use of automation.

When the situation allowed, I flew the A320 with autopilot, throttles and even F/D off on a regular basis. Never "tapped" on the stick though. Just smooth, don't spill the coffee inputs.;) I felt it was extremely valuable. Anything requiring hand/eye coordination always improves with practice and familiarity. It doesn't make a difference if your flight controls move via cable or electron.

Adlerdriver
11-07-2017, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the explanation! Do I understand you to say that the difference between the two incidents started when the Air France crew pulled back on the stick whereas the Nodthwest crew didn't? As far as physical control inputs, that would appear to be correct, don't you agree? My guess is the situations diverged even before that when the NW crew recognizing the situation and applying basic pilot skills/knowledge.

ItnStln
11-07-2017, 11:43 AM
As far as physical control inputs, that would appear to be correct, don't you agree? My guess is the situations diverged even before that when the NW crew recognizing the situation and applying basic pilot skills/knowledge.

I totally agree, I was just trying to make sure I understood what you were saying.
Any idea what inputs the Northwest crew made? I didn't see it in the article I posted.

Adlerdriver
11-07-2017, 12:27 PM
I totally agree, I was just trying to make sure I understood what you were saying.
Any idea what inputs the Northwest crew made? I didn't see it in the article I posted. No. My guess would be very little, if any. The aircraft was in stable flight at cruise. Kind of like being taken off freeze in the sim on 5 mile final. You're on course, on G/S, on speed, power set. The worst thing you can do when the IP says "you're flying" is mess with it. :D

detpilot
11-07-2017, 01:57 PM
I agree that a well trained CFI is gaining valuable experience. However, your comments on the military are too broad brush. Weather, icing, diverts are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to decision making in the wide variety of military missions. But focusing on those for the sake of discussion, sure, some may be able to avoid those situations. Dealing with weather is highly dependent on location. Guys stationed in Vegas or Luke probably rarely have to bother. However, there are plenty of worldwide location where it's a constant factor. Also, VFR or IFR, gas is ALWAYS a factor in a fighter. Every mission you're minutes from a divert if someone takes out your primary runway with a blown tire or takes a cable. I was stationed in Europe for 5 years and if we cancelled because the weather was bad, we never would have flown. I've taken off at mins, popped out at 2K to a clear above, beautiful day, had a great fight and RTB'd to an approach to absolute mins.

Of course there are weather cancels and training on good weather days is always more desirable. The main decision that goes into launching isn't simply bad weather at the base. It is more about is there a mission worth dealing with that bad weather. If none of the airspace is clear, there's not much point in launching. In a gas limited fighter, there's a point where even if the weather in the area is okay, fuel required for a distant alternate makes it pointless to go. However, I've still diverted more times than I can count. So, I think it's safe to say that there are plenty of decision making opportunities and issues, weather related or something else, available for most pilots gaining experience in whatever role they have chosen.

Of course, I didn't mean to imply that there are no, or even few opportunities to learn and apply decision making in the military. I just think that the different ways people build time each have their pros and cons, and each leaves different gaps in experience. Which is fine, but none are worthless. Not even CFI'ing.


Nice set of skills to grab from, what did you fly in the military?

It's certainly an interesting perspective. KC-135 driver in the guard.


Interesting. I grew up the son of a Navy Vietnam era attack and later medium attack pilot. The Navy cerainly operates in all weather. At least my father's platforms did so I was using his experiences and the expereriences of my own personal acquaintences from that community I've flown with through the years. That certainly is a nice mix of experience you have to draw on. I'll continue to disagree with you however on the value of civilian instructor time alone based on my own many personal observations and lengthy experience in 121 operations.

I can't disagree that civilian instructor time alone is lacking when it comes to preparing a person for airline operations. But I'd lump military FAIP experience right in there too. Granted, no one is a FAIP their entire career, so one coming out of the military would certainly have a more diverse pool of experience to draw from, thanks to their follow on aircraft.


So, the Military is too risk averse? In training? Seems like the textbook application of ORM. A revenue operation is going to have an entirely different approach to the question, but while wearing a green romper, I’ve never felt unprepared to execute in the worst conditions, or an unnecessary pressure to perform when the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze (training environment).

Point taken. But you lose a lot of good training on some of those "ORM" days... In my opinion.

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HuggyU2
11-08-2017, 05:48 AM
But I'd lump military FAIP experience right in there too. Granted, no one is a FAIP their entire career.

Wrong. I personally know FAIPs that did their entire commitment in their aircraft and then went to the airlines.

Of course, you can believe "lump military FAIP experience right in there" as experience you don't feel is adequate prep for the airlines. As a former FAIP myself, I believe you don't have the perspective or understanding to make that statement.

deadseal
11-08-2017, 06:58 AM
I can't disagree that civilian instructor time alone is lacking when it comes to preparing a person for airline operations. But I'd lump military FAIP experience right in there too. Granted, no one is a FAIP their entire career, so one coming out of the military would certainly have a more diverse pool of experience to draw from, thanks to their follow on aircraft.




Point taken. But you lose a lot of good training on some of those "ORM" days... In my opinion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Dude you have never been a FAIP. I would slow down on saying things of which you don't know

A 250knot T6 in the hands of a new hire is very different than a 152. I'm not saying it's the bees knees on SA development, but it's waaaay beyond the cfi world.
RSU, formation, EPs, briefs and debriefs....
come on

Oh and I diverted relatively frequently in the fighter world.
Particularly at osan for some reason

flensr
11-08-2017, 12:00 PM
A few folks talking out of their @$$ about relative value of experience that they don't personally have...

Worst display of low SA and high arrogance I've ever seen was some guy claiming to have 20,000+ hours of mostly-121 flight time who must have had a mid-life crisis and signed up to fly MC-12s in Iraq. That guy cried and whined like a baby every time he came back to land at a field that had simultaneous ops of 15 different types including helos on real-world base defense missions, 2-3 different UAV launch/recovery ops 24/7, and primary training from 2 completely separate training units. He filed several unjustified "official" complaints against Tower/ATC personnel over conflicts he himself created by trying to transpose his idea of normal 121 ops into a combat zone. In contrast, the FAIP we brought to that environment adapted incredibly well and did a great job with zero incidents. I'm sure that old MC-12 driver has tons of experience none of the rest of us had, but what he learned from that experience sure as heck wasn't helpful when he was faced with a complex and dynamic environment.

The point being that every individual will take somewhat more or less from their experiences than anyone else, and use that experience to either become better pilots or to solidify their own preconceptions and ignorant adherence to "how I've always done it" behaviors. That doesn't change no matter where the experience comes from.

And slightly more on topic... Are there really any airbus drivers who actually fly by "tapping the sidestick"? With a mere 500 hours of flying airbii, I haven't "tapped the sidestick" yet. It flies just fine if you treat it like any other airplane, not sure why some pilots seem unable to deal with that.

ItnStln
11-08-2017, 12:30 PM
No. My guess would be very little, if any. The aircraft was in stable flight at cruise. Kind of like being taken off freeze in the sim on 5 mile final. You're on course, on G/S, on speed, power set. The worst thing you can do when the IP says "you're flying" is mess with it. :DThat makes sense, thanks!

TheFly
11-08-2017, 02:35 PM
I recently (in VMC) conditions, disconnected the AP in the mid-teens on the arrival. I was heading North, landing south. I have to admit, the first couple level offs, turns and speed changes weren’t as smooth as I would have liked, as my scan was mediocre at best. However, my scan did come back and my heading, altitude and airspeed control came back. If you don’t use it, you will lose it.

I briefed my FO ahead of time and got his buy in.

TheFly
11-08-2017, 02:38 PM
I fly a CRJ, sometimes with very short legs at low altitudes. There are times, workload permitting, that I will hand-fly the entire flight.

Stay sharp guys, keep your scan fluid.

Fixation, emphasis and omission...Remember these?

ExperimentalAB
11-08-2017, 08:07 PM
I briefed my FO ahead of time and got his buy in.

The problem here is the idea that we need to "brief the other guy" before hand-flying. That right there shows that the preferred and normal course of ops is using all the automation; it makes us look like mavericks when we click it off - an outrageous idea given our ultimate, professional duty to be masters of our craft.

Freight Dawg
11-08-2017, 08:31 PM
The problem here is the idea that we need to "brief the other guy" before hand-flying. That right there shows that the preferred and normal course of ops is using all the automation; it makes us look like mavericks when we click it off - an outrageous idea given our ultimate, professional duty to be masters of our craft.

Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. The skills required to fly with all the automation today are so much less than it took back in the steam gauge days. The vast majority of pilots today couldn't safely handle airplanes that were entry level even 30 years ago, let alone 60 years ago.

detpilot
11-08-2017, 08:39 PM
Dude you have never been a FAIP. I would slow down on saying things of which you don't know

A 250knot T6 in the hands of a new hire is very different than a 152. I'm not saying it's the bees knees on SA development, but it's waaaay beyond the cfi world.
RSU, formation, EPs, briefs and debriefs....
come on

Oh and I diverted relatively frequently in the fighter world.
Particularly at osan for some reasonI've never been a FAIP. You've never instructed for over a thousand hours in civilian aircraft. Your advice is good, and I'll follow it. Perhaps you should do the same.

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deadseal
11-09-2017, 04:52 AM
I've never been a FAIP. You've never instructed for over a thousand hours in civilian aircraft. Your advice is good, and I'll follow it. Perhaps you should do the same.

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Meh, I've got 700 GA hours in 52,72,80. Pretty sure I got a handle on it. But hey, if you want to "lump" t-6/t-38 faipdom in there with a civilian bugsmasher for some reason, then have at it brother. My current job is brainless, and being a faip was way more dynamic and demanding

detpilot
11-09-2017, 06:21 AM
Meh, I've got 700 GA hours in 52,72,80. Pretty sure I got a handle on it. But hey, if you want to "lump" t-6/t-38 faipdom in there with a civilian bugsmasher for some reason, then have at it brother. My current job is brainless, and being a faip was way more dynamic and demanding

Relax... I'm not crapping on FAIPs, I respect your experience, and I'm sure it was quite demanding. I'm tired of people crapping on civilian cfis, is all.

Tell me you're not developing CRM while convincing an attorney that we need to turn the TKS anti icing fluid on, while trying not to get spatially disoriented as he hand flies (poorly) his Mooney in IMC in his airplane, in a way that doesn't pi$$ him off enough that you lose a client. "This fluid is XX/gallon, so why do I need to waste it if we're not even picking up any ice!"

Descent planning is a lot tougher when you have to worry about shock cooling a turbocharged engine from 25,000... Especially when you're teaching a 300 hour private how to negotiate relief on that crossing restriction.

All CFIing isn't just "buzzing around the pattern in a 172" any more than being a military IP is.

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deadseal
11-09-2017, 10:10 AM
Relax... I'm not crapping on FAIPs, I respect your experience, and I'm sure it was quite demanding. I'm tired of people crapping on civilian cfis, is all.

Tell me you're not developing CRM while convincing an attorney that we need to turn the TKS anti icing fluid on, while trying not to get spatially disoriented as he hand flies (poorly) his Mooney in IMC in his airplane, in a way that doesn't pi$$ him off enough that you lose a client. "This fluid is XX/gallon, so why do I need to waste it if we're not even picking up any ice!"

Descent planning is a lot tougher when you have to worry about shock cooling a turbocharged engine from 25,000... Especially when you're teaching a 300 hour private how to negotiate relief on that crossing restriction.

All CFIing isn't just "buzzing around the pattern in a 172" any more than being a military IP is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Fair enough, dealing with those folks sounds a lot like dealing with crusty captains!

cardiomd
11-11-2017, 06:04 PM
Here at UAL most guys/gals hand fly a lot on the bus,

Oh come on, with the bus normal law are you every *really* hand-flying?

I keed, I keed. But seriously, there is some CPU between you and the airflow.

HuggyU2
11-11-2017, 06:23 PM
But seriously, there is some CPU between you and the airflow.

And there's not on a 777 or 787?

at6d
11-11-2017, 09:37 PM
I was under the impression that both seats in the AF crash had opposite control inputs for most of the duration of the incident (which correct me since I know zero of Airbus stuff causes a different control mode?) ...and at one point had the aircraft in an attitude where recovery was possible, only to re-induce the attitude and descent rate of the initial situation which ultimately led to the demise.

80ktsClamp
11-11-2017, 10:08 PM
Oh come on, with the bus normal law are you every *really* hand-flying?

I keed, I keed. But seriously, there is some CPU between you and the airflow.

True, but there is a feel and scan involved regardless.

Any bus pilot that speaks of handflying the way he does is self identifying as a terrible bus and stick pilot.

detpilot
11-12-2017, 02:56 AM
I was under the impression that both seats in the AF crash had opposite control inputs for most of the duration of the incident (which correct me since I know zero of Airbus stuff causes a different control mode?) ...and at one point had the aircraft in an attitude where recovery was possible, only to re-induce the attitude and descent rate of the initial situation which ultimately led to the demise.Basic stick and rudder skills, combined with day 1 systems knowledge (priority button) would have prevented this crash.

Sure, it might not have happened had it been a Boeing, but it's not the fault of the airplane any more than any of the Boeing crashes which wouldn't have happened were the airplane an Airbus. (and there are a few)

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Pogey Bait
11-12-2017, 04:40 AM
I was under the impression that both seats in the AF crash had opposite control inputs for most of the duration of the incident (which correct me since I know zero of Airbus stuff causes a different control mode?) ...and at one point had the aircraft in an attitude where recovery was possible, only to re-induce the attitude and descent rate of the initial situation which ultimately led to the demise.

The plane will point in the direction of the “sum” of the inputs of the side sticks. Full back on left side plus full forward on right side equals zero input.

TheFly
11-12-2017, 02:39 PM
The problem here is the idea that we need to "brief the other guy" before hand-flying. That right there shows that the preferred and normal course of ops is using all the automation; it makes us look like mavericks when we click it off - an outrageous idea given our ultimate, professional duty to be masters of our craft.

No, if you are planning to fly hand-fly half a STAR, and it’s going to create a higher workload for the guy sitting next to you then you should give him a heads up. Let’s be real, it’s an uncommon practice.

sailingfun
11-12-2017, 05:17 PM
The relief FO had 2,936 hours and he was the pilot flying.
In another thread here someone posted a similar issue with Northwest (http://avherald.com/h?article=41bb9740) where the pilots were able to recover from the incident. I'm not sure how closely related the two incidents are but from the way I read the post they were very similar except the Northwest crew was able to recover from the incident.

The NW crew did not have to recover anything. They simply flew the aircraft.

vessbot
11-12-2017, 05:17 PM
No, if you are planning to fly hand-fly half a STAR, and it’s going to create a higher workload for the guy sitting next to you then you should give him a heads up. Let’s be real, it’s an uncommon practice.

I don't think he meant hand flying STARs. Sometimes I get made to feel like some sort of cowboy or showoff when I hand fly sooner than localizer intercept, and that to me is bizarre.

An ability to fly the airplane comfortably and routinely (not feeling like you're pulling off some Herculean feat) is supposed to be our basic competency as pilots.

TheFly
11-12-2017, 05:50 PM
I don't think he meant hand flying STARs. Sometimes I get made to feel like some sort of cowboy or showoff when I hand fly sooner than localizer intercept, and that to me is bizarre.

An ability to fly the airplane comfortably and routinely (not feeling like you're pulling off some Herculean feat) is supposed to be our basic competency as pilots.

Well, I consider it a personal goal to not lose my fundemetal skills. Level off while in a turn with a power change. You know, some of the basics (BAI) of instrument flying.

80ktsClamp
11-12-2017, 06:48 PM
The NW crew did not have to recover anything. They simply flew the aircraft.

Yup. I did the guy's recurrent who was PF during the incident. When it happened, he just held her level, same power setting and about 2.5 degrees of pitch. about the time they started to figure out what was going on, everything recovered. Which is exactly what would have happened with AF447 had he not pitched to 17 degrees up (!!!!) at FL350.

ShyGuy
11-12-2017, 10:13 PM
When it happened, he just held her level, same power setting and about 2.5 degrees of pitch.



https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YR4ZdyP0vW8/hqdefault.jpg

Sliceback
11-13-2017, 04:21 AM
Yup. I did the guy's recurrent who was PF during the incident. When it happened, he just held her level, same power setting and about 2.5 degrees of pitch. about the time they started to figure out what was going on, everything recovered. Which is exactly what would have happened with AF447 had he not pitched to 17 degrees up (!!!!) at FL350.

AF 447 had one airspeed indicator recover in 25(??) seconds and both in 45(??) seconds.

2.5 degrees NU and current cruise power setting buys you a lot of time in all airliners.

dogpilot
11-13-2017, 05:48 AM
Pitch and power settings during different phases of flight are important to know, I think.

badflaps
11-13-2017, 06:54 AM
No, if you are planning to fly hand-fly half a STAR, and it’s going to create a higher workload for the guy sitting next to you then you should give him a heads up. Let’s be real, it’s an uncommon practice.

I have no idea why there wern't more violations with over 1500 727's flitting around. How did they do that?:D

galleycafe
11-13-2017, 07:23 AM
I have no idea why there wern't more violations with over 1500 727's flitting around. How did they do that?:D

The STAR's didn't have as many speed and altitude restrictions as they do now. There was typically one speed and one altitude to meet; not 10 all the way down.

Plane Coffee

TCASTESTOK
11-13-2017, 09:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10
Children of the Magenta AAMP

SpeedyVagabond
11-13-2017, 12:42 PM
The STAR's didn't have as many speed and altitude restrictions as they do now. There was typically one speed and one altitude to meet; not 10 all the way down.

Plane Coffee

I have yet to meet a STAR or SID which isn't very easy to hand fly. The problem isn't complexity, it's shutting tfu and paying attention to everything going on. Very easy to do.

ItnStln
11-13-2017, 12:51 PM
The NW crew did not have to recover anything. They simply flew the aircraft.Thanks! By "they simply flew the aircraft" do you mean they did nothing and the problem fixed itself? Am correct in assuming the Northwest crew was better trained since they were able to recover?

ItnStln
11-13-2017, 12:53 PM
Yup. I did the guy's recurrent who was PF during the incident. When it happened, he just held her level, same power setting and about 2.5 degrees of pitch. about the time they started to figure out what was going on, everything recovered. Which is exactly what would have happened with AF447 had he not pitched to 17 degrees up (!!!!) at FL350.That's pretty impressive! Was the Northwest crew better trained than the Air France crew?

80ktsClamp
11-13-2017, 03:00 PM
That's pretty impressive! Was the Northwest crew better trained than the Air France crew?

They were much more experienced with a lot more time hand flying.

ItnStln
11-13-2017, 03:46 PM
They were much more experienced with a lot more time hand flying.Then the difference in outcome between Northwest 8 and Air France 447 makes sense.

at6d
11-13-2017, 05:00 PM
I have yet to meet a STAR or SID which isn't very easy to hand fly. The problem isn't complexity, it's shutting tfu and paying attention to everything going on. Very easy to do.

Fairly reasonable statement, except not every avionics suite is top notch...which may require a bit more hands-on attention.

TheFly
11-13-2017, 06:50 PM
Friend of mine sent this to me.
Once you're hooked on automation, can you turn back?:
https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/i-learned-about-flying/glass-cockpits-steam-gauges

sailingfun
11-14-2017, 03:52 AM
They were much more experienced with a lot more time hand flying.

They grew up and learned their trade hand flying airplanes. They did not learn their trade in a simulator with the autopilot on.

80ktsClamp
11-14-2017, 10:05 AM
They grew up and learned their trade hand flying airplanes. They did not learn their trade in a simulator with the autopilot on.

Yup. You learn pretty early on... or should if you want to live... that pulling back on the stick in a stall is a bad tactic. Particularly going full back at FL350 in a 500,000 lb plane.

galleycafe
11-14-2017, 10:42 AM
I have yet to meet a STAR or SID which isn't very easy to hand fly. The problem isn't complexity, it's shutting tfu and paying attention to everything going on. Very easy to do.

You're a better pilot than I am. That's why I'm Low Tier.

Plane Coffee

seminolepilot
11-14-2017, 12:19 PM
Friend of mine sent this to me.
Once you're hooked on automation, can you turn back?:
https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/i-learned-about-flying/glass-cockpits-steam-gauges

That’s a good read. I wish I could get in a DC-9 sim. It is amazing that students today are learning in just glass. A buddy that’s starting flight school was asking me about iPads for flight planning. I asked him about using a “whizz wheel” and he had no clue.

vessbot
11-26-2017, 06:17 AM
In the end, when you have an unusual attitude, or stall, or enter windshear/severe turbulence, etc., does the autopilot go “chirp chirp chirp” and turn itself on to take control of the plane and fix the situation? No, it's the other way around. We're supposed to be the final, catch-all backstop. But without the confidence to fly the airplane routinely and easily, how can we?

I'm a year into my first 121 (regional) job, and it's always been a normal progression for me that when I first start flying something new that's a big leap from my previous experience, I start out all nervous and intimidated (sweaty palms, fast heartbeat, tunnel visioned, etc.) and after some time in the new airplane, I get comfortable as it gets routine, i.e., it feels more like driving my car and less like doing a moon landing.

I've always taken this to be the normal progression for everybody learning a skill like this, and that the way to get comfortable is to actually do it. How else could it happen?

Well in my flying at the airline I went along this progression like I always have. I pretty quickly got confident flying visually, while still working on it in IMC. But one weird thing I noticed is that 90% of my Captains handfly 90% of their legs only below 1000 feet or so. (And below 1000 feet, what flying is there left to do? You're given the airplane configured on localizer and glideslope, with no speed changes, flap changes, leveloffs, or even turns to do.) And literally not once have I seen someone handfly in IMC. At first I thought I was seeing a disproportionate sampling, but after months it became clear that this is the consistent reality. And my impression changed from “weird” to “unsettling,” because if this is what they've been doing since day one (and if this is the example FO's are seeing from their Captains, I have no reason to think otherwise) how is anybody getting comfortable flying?

The only answer I can come up with is that they're not. Is there any other explanation?

My airline pays no diligence to the basic skill of flying the plane. I think in all of my training I was required to hand fly one approach in the sim, then was discouraged from handflying on OE and on the line. You see, it “increases workload,” as if it's not our job to be able to take on that workload. It's a phrase that increasingly makes me want to puke, along with “managing the airplane.” (Yes we're supposed to be managers of the airplane/automation, but that's on top of being able to fly it, not instead!) These phrases many times seem like a fig leaf justifying staying scared of flying the plane while ostensibly in command of it.

Is this an acceptable situation?

labbats
11-26-2017, 06:29 AM
As you gain experience you won’t need to hand fly all the time any more than you need to get a feel of driving your car.

I think you answered your own question. Many of us felt exactly like you did but all of us at your level are basically like a 16 or 17 year old who just can’t understand the driving techniques of your parents. Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore. They have the skills and now allow themselves the ability to see and understand all around them instead of just putting all of their focus on one thing.

I’m sure you’re a good pilot and we can all relate but when I was a fresh FO and felt the same as you I was also repeatedly stunned when those same lazy captains would know exactly what to do in situations I had no answer for.

I can only speak for myself but I hand flew as a flight instructor and freight dog. I hand flew all the time as a new jet FO. I’m not afraid of hand flying but my time is better spent considering wake turbulence, windshear, proximity of other aircraft, monitoring FOs, what MELs may affect us, if this station has a good GPU or deice crew or will they need me to remind them to warm up the truck, what reports I need to fill out for a sick passenger or if they used an oxygen bottle for it that needs a MEL write up and how I plan to roll out and taxi in most efficiently. You on the other hand are focused on one thing only. A thing that most beside you mastered long ago.

detpilot
11-26-2017, 06:52 AM
As you gain experience you won’t need to hand fly all the time any more than you need to get a feel of driving your car.

I think you answered your own question. Many of us felt exactly like you did but all of us at your level are basically like a 16 or 17 year old who just can’t understand the driving techniques of your parents. Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore. They have the skills and now allow themselves the ability to see and understand all around them instead of just putting all of their focus on one thing.

I’m sure you’re a good pilot and we can all relate but when I was a fresh FO and felt the same as you I was also repeatedly stunned when those same lazy captains would know exactly what to do in situations I had no answer for.

I can only speak for myself but I hand flew as a flight instructor and freight dog. I hand flew all the time as a new jet FO. I’m not afraid of hand flying but my time is better spent considering wake turbulence, windshear, proximity of other aircraft, monitoring FOs, what MELs may affect us, if this station has a good GPU or deice crew or will they need me to remind them to warm up the truck, what reports I need to fill out for a sick passenger or if they used an oxygen bottle for it that needs a MEL write up and how I plan to roll out and taxi in most efficiently. You on the other hand are focused on one thing only. A thing that most beside you mastered long ago.Disagree. Hand flying is a skill that atrophies. The majority of us who handfly a lot spent years hand flying during our formative years as well, yet still understand the need to keep that skill fresh. And, if hand flying is preventing you from thinking about your runway exit or the coffee on ops, then perhaps you need more practice to get back to when it felt like second nature.

There is a noticeable difference in smoothness, SA, landing ability, and confidence between the Captains I fly with who handfly often, and those who never do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

labbats
11-26-2017, 07:43 AM
I'm sure many on this forum will jump on and disagree with me. To each their own, but the fact remains that from those same posts disagreeing with me you illustrate that most pilots side with my viewpoint and not the other.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?

Hand fly all you like just don't judge others as less of pilots than you. Or may I suggest you do like I did when I felt that any real pilot would hand fly... I made a game of it and challenged the Captains I enjoyed flying with at my regional to hand fly better than me below 10,000 feet. After seeing most fly better than me I came to my current viewpoint about hand flying.

badflaps
11-26-2017, 08:37 AM
In the last two years I've noticed there is a lot more "Planting" than slipping it on.

detpilot
11-26-2017, 09:53 AM
I'm sure many on this forum will jump on and disagree with me. To each their own, but the fact remains that from those same posts disagreeing with me you illustrate that most pilots side with my viewpoint and not the other.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?

Hand fly all you like just don't judge others as less of pilots than you. Or may I suggest you do like I did when I felt that any real pilot would hand fly... I made a game of it and challenged the Captains I enjoyed flying with at my regional to hand fly better than me below 10,000 feet. After seeing most fly better than me I came to my current viewpoint about hand flying.But it's not 90%. It's 90% of the "video game generation." Since I've been at mainline, the majority hand fly more often than not, in that sweet area between 1000agl and 18000. When I was at the regionals, the older, more experienced captains tended to hand fly, while the younger captains tended to be of the "gear up, autopilot on" mentality. Sure, there are notable exceptions, but you can't deny the fact that skills atrophy.

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vessbot
11-26-2017, 01:37 PM
Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore.

If what you say is true, then that's heartening. But every sign I get is that what I see is the norm (and tacit expectation) for both seats here. Of course we may have different experiences.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?

I'm disappointed to see anyone advance this argument. One time 90% of training was to keep the nose up in a stall. 90% of pilots smoked in the cockpit. Etc.

When I was at the regionals, the older, more experienced captains tended to hand fly, while the younger captains tended to be of the "gear up, autopilot on" mentality.

Interesting, my experience is the opposite. Of the little hand flying I see, most is by the younger Captains.

...

Another aspect of all this, besides our duty to maintain proficiency, is... don't people want to fly? I, for one, take pleasure in flying (it's why I took up this job, after all) so it's completely bizarre to me to see the issue framed as doing the minimum to fulfill some unpleasant chore, and as soon as that's checked off, you "don't need to" anymore, with excuses made up to justify it. It just kills me whenever we're doing a visual into some sleepy class C or D, on a clear beautiful day and we're the only ones on frequency, and the other guy still controls the plane like an Etch-a-sketch until 1000 feet. I only don't ask for him to give me those, to avoid being annoying.

80ktsClamp
11-26-2017, 06:24 PM
Disagree. Hand flying is a skill that atrophies. The majority of us who handfly a lot spent years hand flying during our formative years as well, yet still understand the need to keep that skill fresh. And, if hand flying is preventing you from thinking about your runway exit or the coffee on ops, then perhaps you need more practice to get back to when it felt like second nature.

There is a noticeable difference in smoothness, SA, landing ability, and confidence between the Captains I fly with who handfly often, and those who never do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


You've got that right. Get a guy that has been on the plane for a while and just throws the AP on and never turns off the autothrust and watch them try to hand fly an ILS without the FD and autothrust. It gets ugly quick, as those skills, particularly the scan and feel for the plane (yes, even the 320 has a feel) atrophy quite fast.

galleycafe
11-26-2017, 08:08 PM
I didn't realize there were so many Bob Hoovers out there.

Kudos!

Plane Coffee

Sliceback
11-27-2017, 04:47 AM
Improvements in autopilot ability, and smoothness, have increased it’s use. 727 and early 737 A/P’s could be a PITA to use. Handflying was easier. S80 with v/s and PERF was an improvement. 757/767 automation, and smoothness, was a higher level. But they still have smoothness issues. Those smoothness issues can be mitigated by utilizing a different level of automation or hand flying.

And the automation is limited by it’s software. It can’t accelerate faster, or slower, utilizing pitch attitude, to adjust for wake turbulence clearance, or terrain required climb angle/rate requirements.

Automation is a wonderful tool but it’s not always the best, or first, answer.

N19906
11-27-2017, 10:58 AM
Long ago, the guy who started me off down this path told me about his experience at TWA.
The company really pressed people to use the AP and not hand-fly. It was more efficient they said, and conserved fuel. Spike pointed out that during pro-checks in the sim, the guys most prone to busting rides were the ones that followed the compay’s proceedures most closely. I.E., the AP always “on” guys.
I’ve always remembered that and try to hand-fly quite a bit down low.
(It’s more fun anyway.)

detpilot
11-27-2017, 11:13 AM
I didn't realize there were so many Bob Hoovers out there.

Kudos!

Plane CoffeeAn airline pilot being able to hand fly in weather = Bob Hoover? Wow... Ok!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

galleycafe
11-27-2017, 11:26 AM
An airline pilot being able to hand fly in weather = Bob Hoover? Wow... Ok!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

High Five!

Plane Coffee

SpeedyVagabond
11-27-2017, 12:50 PM
I didn't realize there were so many Bob Hoovers out there.

Kudos!

Plane Coffee

Interesting. I'm all too aware there aren't that many.

galleycafe
11-27-2017, 01:45 PM
Shake and Bake, baby!

Plane Coffee

MantisToboggan
11-28-2017, 02:23 PM
As you gain experience you won’t need to hand fly all the time any more than you need to get a feel of driving your car.

I think you answered your own question. Many of us felt exactly like you did but all of us at your level are basically like a 16 or 17 year old who just can’t understand the driving techniques of your parents. Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore. They have the skills and now allow themselves the ability to see and understand all around them instead of just putting all of their focus on one thing.

I’m sure you’re a good pilot and we can all relate but when I was a fresh FO and felt the same as you I was also repeatedly stunned when those same lazy captains would know exactly what to do in situations I had no answer for.

I can only speak for myself but I hand flew as a flight instructor and freight dog. I hand flew all the time as a new jet FO. I’m not afraid of hand flying but my time is better spent considering wake turbulence, windshear, proximity of other aircraft, monitoring FOs, what MELs may affect us, if this station has a good GPU or deice crew or will they need me to remind them to warm up the truck, what reports I need to fill out for a sick passenger or if they used an oxygen bottle for it that needs a MEL write up and how I plan to roll out and taxi in most efficiently. You on the other hand are focused on one thing only. A thing that most beside you mastered long ago.

If hand flying is taking away so much of your brain power that you can't consider all those factors, have you ever considered that you aren't proficient enough??

Would the Feds telling you that you're being a a b*tch change your mind?

FAA Report Says Airline Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation | TIME.com (http://nation.time.com/2013/11/20/pilots-are-losing-basic-flying-skills-due-to-automation-faa-says/)

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 02:28 PM
If hand flying is taking away so much of your brain power that you can't consider all those factors, have you ever considered that you aren't proficient enough??

Would the Feds telling you that you're being a a b*tch change your mind?

FAA Report Says Airline Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation | TIME.com (http://nation.time.com/2013/11/20/pilots-are-losing-basic-flying-skills-due-to-automation-faa-says/)

The FAA says so! That means it's true.

So much safety improvement going on!

Aircraft Mochachino

MantisToboggan
11-28-2017, 02:30 PM
The FAA says so! That means it's true.

So much safety improvement going on!

Aircraft Mochachino

Ahh yes, the FAA advocating for something that would make traveling less safe. Makes sense.

For clarification, are you saying that hand flying more frequently does not make you more proficient at hand flying? Or are you saying being proficient at hand flying in all phases of flights is unimportant with the level of automation we have?

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 02:46 PM
I'm saying there are a lot of inflated egos on here discussing what superior aviators they are compared to the rest of us.

Like most things in life, I believe there's more than one way to fry a kitty kat.

I get tired of some people looking down their noses at others because they choose to fly a little differently than how Mecca, errrrrr, Atlanta does.

Airfoil French Roast

SpeedyVagabond
11-28-2017, 03:18 PM
The FAA says so! That means it's true.

So much safety improvement going on!

Aircraft Mochachino

They're definitely a bureaucracy with all the negatives inherent in one. But if you're trying to tell us they're not on the side of safety and working to continually improve it you're out to lunch. Their assessment seems pretty spot on to me with respect to some recent events. Especially the accident in Buffalo Air France off Brazil. On another note I'm surprised at some of the apparent defensiveness here with respect to this discussion. Hand flying is absolutely a perishable skill. It makes one smoother both on and off the automation. And it definitely leads to more consistently gentle air to land interfaces at the end of a leg. At least that's been my experience. Which I suspect is in line with everyone else's.

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 04:28 PM
They're on the side of safety; right after they take care of their own interests.

Don't tell me what I'm saying.

I'm not out to lunch. I'm out for Plane Coffee.

vessbot
11-28-2017, 04:35 PM
What self-interest could the FAA be duplitiously pushing by pointing out a lack of hand flying proficiency and recommending hand flying?

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 05:04 PM
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck?

Plane Americano

vessbot
11-28-2017, 05:16 PM
Seriously, what are you talking about in post 154?

detpilot
11-28-2017, 05:35 PM
I'm saying there are a lot of inflated egos on here discussing what superior aviators they are compared to the rest of us.

Like most things in life, I believe there's more than one way to fry a kitty kat.

I get tired of some people looking down their noses at others because they choose to fly a little differently than how Mecca, errrrrr, Atlanta does.

Airfoil French RoastA basketball player who practices is better than one who doesn't. Insert any profession there, including ours. If that hurts your feelings, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 05:56 PM
Airplane White Chocolate Mocha for everyone!

Prost!

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 05:58 PM
Seriously, what are you talking about in post 154?

Have a Ship Large Black Coffee.

Try and keep up.

galleycafe
11-28-2017, 06:00 PM
A basketball player who practices is better than one who doesn't. Insert any profession there, including ours. If that hurts your feelings, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I don't listen to hip hop.

Airship Venti Frappuccino

450knotOffice
11-29-2017, 12:16 AM
If hand flying is taking away so much of your brain power that you can't consider all those factors, have you ever considered that you aren't proficient enough??

Would the Feds telling you that you're being a a b*tch change your mind?

FAA Report Says Airline Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation | TIME.com (http://nation.time.com/2013/11/20/pilots-are-losing-basic-flying-skills-due-to-automation-faa-says/)

Haha! Could you possibly overreach more with your conclusion?! Jeezus Kryst, man. You missed his point entirely.

WHACKMASTER
11-29-2017, 03:53 AM
The fact that there’s even an argument over whether we should keep our hand-flying skills proficient or not is downright scary. Wow.....

MantisToboggan
11-29-2017, 05:21 AM
Haha! Could you possibly overreach more with your conclusion?! Jeezus Kryst, man. You missed his point entirely.

His argument was that hand flying was time that could be better spent thinking about other things related to the flight. What did I miss?

Five93H
11-29-2017, 03:47 PM
In the end, when you have an unusual attitude, or stall, or enter windshear/severe turbulence, etc., does the autopilot go “chirp chirp chirp” and turn itself on to take control of the plane and fix the situation? No, it's the other way around. We're supposed to be the final, catch-all backstop. But without the confidence to fly the airplane routinely and easily, how can we?

I'm a year into my first 121 (regional) job, and it's always been a normal progression for me that when I first start flying something new that's a big leap from my previous experience, I start out all nervous and intimidated (sweaty palms, fast heartbeat, tunnel visioned, etc.) and after some time in the new airplane, I get comfortable as it gets routine, i.e., it feels more like driving my car and less like doing a moon landing.

I've always taken this to be the normal progression for everybody learning a skill like this, and that the way to get comfortable is to actually do it. How else could it happen?

Well in my flying at the airline I went along this progression like I always have. I pretty quickly got confident flying visually, while still working on it in IMC. But one weird thing I noticed is that 90% of my Captains handfly 90% of their legs only below 1000 feet or so. (And below 1000 feet, what flying is there left to do? You're given the airplane configured on localizer and glideslope, with no speed changes, flap changes, leveloffs, or even turns to do.) And literally not once have I seen someone handfly in IMC. At first I thought I was seeing a disproportionate sampling, but after months it became clear that this is the consistent reality. And my impression changed from “weird” to “unsettling,” because if this is what they've been doing since day one (and if this is the example FO's are seeing from their Captains, I have no reason to think otherwise) how is anybody getting comfortable flying?

The only answer I can come up with is that they're not. Is there any other explanation?

My airline pays no diligence to the basic skill of flying the plane. I think in all of my training I was required to hand fly one approach in the sim, then was discouraged from handflying on OE and on the line. You see, it “increases workload,” as if it's not our job to be able to take on that workload. It's a phrase that increasingly makes me want to puke, along with “managing the airplane.” (Yes we're supposed to be managers of the airplane/automation, but that's on top of being able to fly it, not instead!) These phrases many times seem like a fig leaf justifying staying scared of flying the plane while ostensibly in command of it.

Is this an acceptable situation?

Interesting. I think we're at the same shop, and I'll say my experience is far different. I handflying more than the average line pilot and I've never had anybody make it seem more work. I routinely handfly departures above 10,000 even in NYC. Most captains are happy to oblige as long as you aren't busting clearances left and right.

vessbot
11-29-2017, 04:42 PM
Interesting. I think we're at the same shop, and I'll say my experience is far different. I handflying more than the average line pilot and I've never had anybody make it seem more work. I routinely handfly departures above 10,000 even in NYC. Most captains are happy to oblige as long as you aren't busting clearances left and right.

We are at the same airline. I guess you can say that I had one truly bizarre experience early on, that may have colored my overall impressions. That and I've always been very conscious of not stepping on toes or bucking the mold too much. So for a while after that case, I was very meek in playing mother-may-I about turning off the AP for anything other than small-airport visuals. More recently, I've developed the confidence to just brief my intentions and let them say "no" if they feel the need to. I've gotten very few no's, but many of the OK's are clearly hesitant.

The above is about my own flying. Mulling back over what I've seen in the other seat, I don't think I was exaggerating. 2 Captains stick out in my mind as comfortable and enthusiastic handflyers, and naturally I had a great time on those trips.

SpeedyVagabond
11-29-2017, 05:30 PM
Your shop is busted! It needs some major repair. You shouldn't have to ask the Captain if you can hand fly nor is it a briefing item. Briefing that you're going to "fly" the airplane? Surely I'm not alone in thinking how insane that is?

labbats
11-29-2017, 07:40 PM
Once again I ask what is to be gained hand flying above 10,000 feet?

You like to fly. That’s commendable and you want your skills to stay sharp. But holding a steady pitch and heading for minutes on end seems a waste. When the autopilot is on the Captain may look elsewhere and be sure no deviations occur, when you handfly he cannot. I can only speak my own opinion but above 10,000 feet I would prefer the Autopilot on as would almost everyone I know.

Easy day and you want to hand fly below 10,000? Be my guest. But I prefer not to and that is acceptable as well.

tomgoodman
11-29-2017, 08:13 PM
When the autopilot is on the Captain may look elsewhere and be sure no deviations occur, when you handfly he cannot.

I asked F/Os to leave the autopilot off or leave it on, because disconnecting it would cause an unpleasant siren to disturb my nap. :cool:

Freight Dawg
11-29-2017, 09:14 PM
Your shop is busted! It needs some major repair. You shouldn't have to ask the Captain if you can hand fly nor is it a briefing item. Briefing that you're going to "fly" the airplane? Surely I'm not alone in thinking how insane that is?

No, you are not alone. Attitudes like labbats' truely puzzle me. There has been quite a culture shift in the last ten to fifteen years regarding A/P use. Not quite sure where it came from and personally don't think it's for the better.

contrails
11-29-2017, 09:54 PM
Once again I ask what is to be gained hand flying above 10,000 feet?

You like to fly. That’s commendable and you want your skills to stay sharp. But holding a steady pitch and heading for minutes on end seems a waste. When the autopilot is on the Captain may look elsewhere and be sure no deviations occur, when you handfly he cannot. I can only speak my own opinion but above 10,000 feet I would prefer the Autopilot on as would almost everyone I know.

Easy day and you want to hand fly below 10,000? Be my guest. But I prefer not to and that is acceptable as well.

Above 10,000 feet is the time to get the flight director off and actually get your scan back.

Perfect when you're heading to a fix/VOR that's 200 miles away and in an unrestricted climb to the flight levels.

That way, you can't bust an altitude and if you are very slightly off course it's not going to matter. (not talking about an RNAV departure here)

Keeping the flight director centered is not doing wonders for your instrument scan.

You'd be surprised if you turn it off sometime under the circumstances I've described above, how much your scan may have deteriorated.

Fortunately, there's plenty of opportunity to get it back.

labbats
11-29-2017, 10:05 PM
I appreciate the responses. I’ll do a bit of hand flying and see. Maybe my scan is worse than I think it is.

Sliceback
11-30-2017, 06:53 AM
Hand flying ABOVE 10,000’ to work on your scan?

You’re at a constant power setting, wings level, and trimmed airspeed. You can climb for minutes, and thousands of feet, with only minor minor minor rudder inputs.

In a FBW aircraft you can go get a drink, go to the bathroom, come back and nothing will have changed.

If you want to work on your scan revert to the basic instrument training technics while your on arrival - vary your descent rate just like we did in training, while turning and slowing and configuring.

Set target pitch attitudes on departure and lead the FD vs blindly following it. That also means you have to know the actual pitch rates the plane(FD) require.

On a departure that has mandatory climb rates/angles ensure that you keep the climb rate above the specific minimum. That requires changing vertical speeds as the aircraft accelerates. The a/p software doesn’t do that. It’s programmed for the generic acceleration/clean up profile even if the departure has higher requirements.

Freight Dawg
11-30-2017, 07:46 AM
Professional airline pilots in the major airline section of this forum discussing basic attitude instrument flying techniques. This is so increbably sad. This thread really should be moved to the flight training section of the forum.

Five93H
11-30-2017, 07:52 AM
We are at the same airline. I guess you can say that I had one truly bizarre experience early on, that may have colored my overall impressions. That and I've always been very conscious of not stepping on toes or bucking the mold too much. So for a while after that case, I was very meek in playing mother-may-I about turning off the AP for anything other than small-airport visuals. More recently, I've developed the confidence to just brief my intentions and let them say "no" if they feel the need to. I've gotten very few no's, but many of the OK's are clearly hesitant.

The above is about my own flying. Mulling back over what I've seen in the other seat, I don't think I was exaggerating. 2 Captains stick out in my mind as comfortable and enthusiastic handflyers, and naturally I had a great time on those trips.

I always laugh when guys handfly and all of a sudden ALTS CAP comes on- "oh uhh autopilot!".

Haven't noticed a major difference between 200 and 900. Maybe a little more handflying on the deuce due to more outstation legs.

Handfly above 10 depends on the day, sometimes it's useful to get a feel of trimming it properly and getting it stable. For me at least... Everybody can fly how they want, that's the beauty of it.

ItnStln
12-01-2017, 01:42 PM
FAA Report Says Airline Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation | TIME.com (http://nation.time.com/2013/11/20/pilots-are-losing-basic-flying-skills-due-to-automation-faa-says/)

Thanks for posting that article, it was a good read.

Crucero
12-01-2017, 04:43 PM
Don't forget to wear a hood while we are at it!

AboveMins
12-01-2017, 11:33 PM
I've always enjoyed getting cleared for a short approach, kicking everything off, and hand flying it raw data. Makes for fun times when your FO looks at you like you're a mad man for turning off the director.

Crank n bank, baby! :D

Dirty30
12-02-2017, 02:34 AM
So, what I'm picking up by this it's that switching on the A/P shortly after departure and switching it off on final is pretty much an SOP on a 121 airline. What exactly are you taught in training? Aside from handling emergencies. How much hand flying do you actually do in training? I'm curious about how these carriers work since I'm just starting to get ready to apply to the regionals after my AD orders.

SpeedyVagabond
12-02-2017, 04:30 AM
So, what I'm picking up by this it's that switching on the A/P shortly after departure and switching it off on final is pretty much an SOP on a 121 airline.

Only for the guys who try to dent runways everywhere they go. There's no SOP at my shop requiring A/P usage except for low visibility and ceiling days during approaches. I suspect that's industry standard. Some captains such as myself are going to encourage hand flying and give you a pat on the back for doing it. Others, or so I've been told, will fidget nervously and make stupid comments about not being able to relax and having to work while they reach up and press and twist things on the guidance panel. You're mileage is going to vary. When hand flying with one of those joys to fly with make sure you click off the autothrottles too! Nearly stops their hearts every time I've been told. And there is definitely a correlation between smooth landings and amount of autopilot usage.

Dirty30
12-02-2017, 05:57 PM
Only for the guys who try to dent runways everywhere they go. There's no SOP at my shop requiring A/P usage except for low visibility and ceiling days during approaches. I suspect that's industry standard. Some captains such as myself are going to encourage hand flying and give you a pat on the back for doing it. Others, or so I've been told, will fidget nervously and make stupid comments about not being able to relax and having to work while they reach up and press and twist things on the guidance panel. You're mileage is going to vary. When hand flying with one of those joys to fly with make sure you click off the autothrottles too! Nearly stops their hearts every time I've been told. And there is definitely a correlation between smooth landings and amount of autopilot usage.


Thanks for the insight! So much A/P usage and automation will take some getting used to in my case.

80ktsClamp
12-02-2017, 08:49 PM
For me on the line, I have to have a reason to turn the automation on for an approach, otherwise it's AP and AT off each approach, and for visual patterns FD off as well.

Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.

vessbot
12-03-2017, 06:10 AM
So, what I'm picking up by this it's that switching on the A/P shortly after departure and switching it off on final is pretty much an SOP on a 121 airline. What exactly are you taught in training? Aside from handling emergencies. How much hand flying do you actually do in training? I'm curious about how these carriers work since I'm just starting to get ready to apply to the regionals after my AD orders.

Not SOP, just the common practice. Fortunately, for all my complaints about the culture, our actual SOP is quite liberal. The only time autopilot is required is Cat II, RVSM, and PRM (if available.)

The good thing is that with SOP on your side, you can presume to do what you want, and let the other guy stop you only if he decides to. And if he's too stifling, you just do what he wants, finish out the trip, and the next one is a clean slate.

How much hand flying in training? Virtually none. I remember some steep turns, climbs, and descents in the first sim session, and then onward to all the box checking. Later on I think I had to do a total of 2 hand flown approaches, one normal and one on the standby gyro. Of course, AP can be on until level on the final approach course. Because it would be too hard otherwise, and you might need to try it a few times before checking the box. (As if your first success at a task should be enough to establish mastery, anyway!)

The only instruction about flying the plane I got was a rule of thumb about power setting on final (that's really pretty useless with the AP off) and a comment about the reverse thrust-pitch couple. Both of these being off the cuff technique tidbits from the instructor, and not a part of the curriculum.

Nothing about:

- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes

... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.

---

Since the beginning I've heard many times about how the biggest consistent problem our LCA's are seeing in trainees and on the line, is visual approaches. OK, I think. So what are they doing about it? Here's my window into what's being done about it. One time I fly a visual approach, where our gate for having the gear down is 1000 AGL. I lower the gear some time before that, meet all of our stabilization criteria, and the approach goes fine. Afterward, the CA says that he doesn't really care personally, but if I did that on a line check I would get tuned up because I didn't lower the gear 3-5 miles before the FAF, which is our ILS profile! So "backed up by the ILS" functionally just means "fly the ILS," and the company is evidently flogging people to fly the ILS when cleared for the visual, instead of simply looking at the runway and flying toward a point a few miles short of it... AKA, you know, flying a visual?

If this is the solution, the problem will only get worse.

2StgTurbine
12-03-2017, 06:49 AM
Nothing about:

- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes

... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.

Some time ago, training departments decided providing pitch and power settings to fly a plane was not a good idea. The thought process is if you provide pitch and power settings they will blindly follow them. But if the aircraft is at an unusual weight or the airport is on a plateau, then those numbers won't work and the bottom 10% of pilots won't realize that.

Whenever I get a new type rating, I try to get some extra time in the sim to get these numbers. One way is to put the airplane on a glideslope at 250 knots pull the power to idle and configure normally. Then find out how much altitude and distance it took to slow and what power setting holds approach speed. Now repeat with an engine shutdown. Figure out pitch and power for level flight at low, medium, & high altitudes and now you have ballpark numbers you can use. It takes about 10 minutes but 90% of the time the instructors advises against it so I usually have to wait until I'm on the line to figure it out :rolleyes:

Dirty30
12-03-2017, 07:17 AM
Not SOP, just the common practice. Fortunately, for all my complaints about the culture, our actual SOP is quite liberal. The only time autopilot is required is Cat II, RVSM, and PRM (if available.)

The good thing is that with SOP on your side, you can presume to do what you want, and let the other guy stop you only if he decides to. And if he's too stifling, you just do what he wants, finish out the trip, and the next one is a clean slate.

How much hand flying in training? Virtually none. I remember some steep turns, climbs, and descents in the first sim session, and then onward to all the box checking. Later on I think I had to do a total of 2 hand flown approaches, one normal and one on the standby gyro. Of course, AP can be on until level on the final approach course. Because it would be too hard otherwise, and you might need to try it a few times before checking the box. (As if your first success at a task should be enough to establish mastery, anyway!)

The only instruction about flying the plane I got was a rule of thumb about power setting on final (that's really pretty useless with the AP off) and a comment about the reverse thrust-pitch couple. Both of these being off the cuff technique tidbits from the instructor, and not a part of the curriculum.

Nothing about:

- power settings for other approach phases or flap settings
- pitch attitudes
- trim/attitude changes with flap changes

... And I'm supposed to walk out of that with the knowledge and confidence that I'm qualified to fly an approach to minimums. Yeah right.

---

Since the beginning I've heard many times about how the biggest consistent problem our LCA's are seeing in trainees and on the line, is visual approaches. OK, I think. So what are they doing about it? Here's my window into what's being done about it. One time I fly a visual approach, where our gate for having the gear down is 1000 AGL. I lower the gear some time before that, meet all of our stabilization criteria, and the approach goes fine. Afterward, the CA says that he doesn't really care personally, but if I did that on a line check I would get tuned up because I didn't lower the gear 3-5 miles before the FAF, which is our ILS profile! So "backed up by the ILS" functionally just means "fly the ILS," and the company is evidently flogging people to fly the ILS when cleared for the visual, instead of simply looking at the runway and flying toward a point a few miles short of it... AKA, you know, flying a visual?

If this is the solution, the problem will only get worse.

So, you end up flying a "visual approach" instead of a visual approach. Thanks for the insight.

Dirty30
12-03-2017, 07:20 AM
Some time ago, training departments decided providing pitch and power settings to fly a plane was not a good idea. The thought process is if you provide pitch and power settings they will blindly follow them. But if the aircraft is at an unusual weight or the airport is on a plateau, then those numbers won't work and the bottom 10% of pilots won't realize that.

Whenever I get a new type rating, I try to get some extra time in the sim to get these numbers. One way is to put the airplane on a glideslope at 250 knots pull the power to idle and configure normally. Then find out how much altitude and distance it took to slow and what power setting holds approach speed. Now repeat with an engine shutdown. Figure out pitch and power for level flight at low, medium, & high altitudes and now you have ballpark numbers you can use. It takes about 10 minutes but 90% of the time the instructors advises against it so I usually have to wait until I'm on the line to figure it out :rolleyes:

How did the CA's you fly with handle that?

galleycafe
12-03-2017, 07:26 AM
For me on the line, I have to have a reason to turn the automation on for an approach, otherwise it's AP and AT off each approach, and for visual patterns FD off as well.

Apparently that makes me a Bob Hoover via some on this thread... it sure shows when tested that I've fought to keep my scan. It atrophies QUICK for those that are auto flight junkies, and they have no clue it has atrophied until pushed on it.

Excellent work!

I award you one Ship Venti White Chocolate Mocha!

Sliceback
12-03-2017, 07:36 AM
Every time the a/p is flying an approach in the sim you can observe the pitch and power settings. You see dozens of approaches in training.

80ktsClamp
12-03-2017, 01:44 PM
Excellent work!

I award you one Ship Venti White Chocolate Mocha!

https://media.tenor.com/images/88c4c5254d27ccb59e221b465c96cb40/tenor.png

PRS Guitars
12-03-2017, 03:07 PM
Thanks for the insight! So much A/P usage and automation will take some getting used to in my case.

The AP was the biggest thing I had to learn along with the FMS (and ramp control? What’s that?). Hand flying was all I knew, and was my comfort zone. I forced myself to use the autopilot until I was comfortable. Then I found my hand flying skills had atrophied, so I started hand flying to cruise, or at least 10k and again at least base to final before configuring. With exceptions...after a red eye, or in bad WX, busy ATC environments, I’ll use the AP longer on approach, sometimes to 500’.

Dirty30
12-03-2017, 06:17 PM
The AP was the biggest thing I had to learn along with the FMS (and ramp control? What’s that?). Hand flying was all I knew, and was my comfort zone. I forced myself to use the autopilot until I was comfortable. Then I found my hand flying skills had atrophied, so I started hand flying to cruise, or at least 10k and again at least base to final before configuring. With exceptions...after a red eye, or in bad WX, busy ATC environments, I’ll use the AP longer on approach, sometimes to 500’.

I can definitely relate to the hand flying part. Is it common to see Mil bros struggling on FMS an automation during airline training?

80ktsClamp
12-03-2017, 06:34 PM
I can definitely relate to the hand flying part. Is it common to see Mil bros struggling on FMS an automation during airline training?

It is a particularly steep curve coming from the single seat world...

galleycafe
12-03-2017, 09:49 PM
https://media.tenor.com/images/88c4c5254d27ccb59e221b465c96cb40/tenor.png

Getting amped?

One Large McDonald's Black Decaf...two creams...two splendas.

PRS Guitars
12-03-2017, 11:01 PM
I can definitely relate to the hand flying part. Is it common to see Mil bros struggling on FMS an automation during airline training?

I wouldn’t say struggle, just that it was new concepts.

MantisToboggan
12-04-2017, 04:41 AM
I can definitely relate to the hand flying part. Is it common to see Mil bros struggling on FMS an automation during airline training?

If you're worried about it, don't be. Sounds like you'll be more than capable of the actual flying part, so it won't take as much of your brain power as you learn the other stuff



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