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View Full Version : The unspoken LOA


Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 08:47 AM
Friends, Romans, countrymen. Lend me your ears. While it’s not a good idea to negotiate in public forums because it lets management know the least they have to pay you, it is a good idea to discuss how language can and will shaft you. Let me give examples. Please don’t say that you’ll work as a captain for peanuts because it doesn’t help anyone and it also isn’t true. Please do read the loa actual language with a critical eye to how it may and will be used against you. Example:

“No less than 20% of the published reserve lines will be pre-assigned with a 1000 RAP on the first day of each block of reserve. Each of these lines will contain and be guaranteed 11 days off.” Did you guys see the “published” part. That isn’t saying that 20% or more of us will get that as an awarded rsv line. Also she note that it says no less than. Just like how our flow says no less than. Expect the worst because there is nothing in their best interest to give more without further concessions on our part later. Feel free to tear the language down but don’t talk about how much or less we will accept to get it passed.
Btw I do appreciate the hard work alpa has put forward on this I just ask myself one question. “Would I be more likely to bid reserve after this passes” the answer is no. If your not then why vote in the loop holes and help their staffing issues/loose leverage.


Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 08:53 AM
The actual language is a hyperlink called “new contract” that came in the email at ~11:04am a few days ago. Very discrete.



“A Call Me First (CMF) / Call Me Last (CML) System is being created.

You may make your CMF/CML decision on the monthly bid sheet (Options menu within HIB)

You may then change your CMF/CML status prior to the beginning of the month, and again on the 15th day of that month“

We are being asked to vote again on a promise that is sure to have many loop holes. How can I say that? Why wouldn’t the company insist on loopholes after we have already said yes to the language?

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:04 AM
I may be wrong but I seem to remember that a ready reserve pilot due to end at 2 couldn’t be given a flight that left at 2:45 unless they were given that flight no later than 1:45. I don’t see anything in new language reflecting the 1:45 limit. Did I miss it. Also I saw this... is this how it’s currently handled because dispatch hates to push departures back and mx is always overly optimistic. Seems like it makes for a very long day.

b. If, after being assigned, the flight’s departure is subsequently delayed more than forty-five (45) minutes after the end of a pilot’s Ready Reserve shift, the assignment is still proper.
c. If at the time of an assignment, Scheduling knows that a flight will not depart within forty-five (45) minutes after the end of a pilot’s Ready Reserve shift, the flight cannot be assigned to him.
d. If Scheduling assigns an open trip to a Ready Reserve pilot and the pilot notifies Scheduling that the flight is not going to depart within forty-five (45) minutes after the end of a Ready Reserve shift, Scheduling is obligated to check with Dispatch concerning the actual planned departure time. If Dispatch confirms that the flight will not depart within forty-five (45) minutes after the Ready Reserve shift ends, the flight cannot be assigned to the Ready Reserve.”


Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:09 AM
This isn’t terrible if you live in base and are senior. If you don’t and you want a vps overnight that’s high time then chances are you’ll be sitting at a dallas hotel not getting any perdiem. Good thing for bonus checks. Serious question here....who decides whose trips to take and who deserves them? What’s the formula? Is there any accountability and what if your dating a scheduler? How can I ask for my trips to be taken?

“DISPLACEMENTS AND COMPOSITE LINES FOR LOW TIME PILOTS
A. The Company may displace first officers who are holding a line of time from sequence(s) when such sequence(s) are needed in order to progress a Low Time First Officer towards one thousand (1000) hours of SIC time.
1. TheCompanywillgenerallydisplacelineholdingpilotsin order of seniority, with a bias towards the most beneficial trip sequence for the pilot who requires the time.
2. Anypilotdisplacedunderthisparagraphwillnotbesubjec tto reassignment, however such pilot will be able to pick up Open Time and shall be paid for such time in accordance with Section 3.J of the Pilots’ Basic Agreement and all applicable Letters of Agreement.
3. Displacedflyingwillbeassignedtofirstofficersinthes ame status who need one thousand (1000) hours SIC time.
4. Anypilot*****ceivesflyingunderthisparagraphAwhois required to commute the night before the trip will receive a hotel room upon request. Such hotel room will not be counted toward any Commuter Hotel allotment (if any).”

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:16 AM
“Onereservelinewillcontainblocksofreservedayssucht hatnoblock of reserve days is built with more than 4 consecutive days of reserve duty.
4. Inlargerstatuses,wherethereareatleastfourteenreser velines,one reserve line will be built such that the line contains a maximum of one block of five (5) consecutive days of reserve duty.”



With regards to that whole being released at 2 pm thing. I’m no rsv line building expert but if you bid a conflict then you don’t get released at 2pm right? Because that wasn’t how the line was built. How many other trips could you possibly get released early? 3 or 4 at most for the rest of the month. On the call last night it was mentioned scheduling could just extend you. That was what I heard. Am I wrong? Could scheduling just make all the reserve lines 4 on 2 off? They could still junior man on day 5(day off) and keep you legal in low staffing situations. They also wouldn’t be obligated to get you done by 2 pm because it’s a junior man. Not scheduled

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:20 AM
I’m not sure how this currently reads so I hope you guys will clarify. “Section 3.N.3.a shall be changed to read as follows: 3. Homestudy training.
a. In the event a Homestudy training module(s) is incorporated into pilot training requirements, the pilot will be credited fifty percent (50%) of the FAA assigned value of the training module above guarantee.” It sounds like if it takes 20 hours to actually do something but the gas says it’s only worth 10 hours then we get paid 5 hours on top of guarantee. Not half of what it actually takes us.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:27 AM
This is almost the most rediculous part.

“GOLDEN PVDs
The Parties agree that, effective January 1,2018, each pilot will have access to up to two (2) Golden Personal Vacation Days (which are included in the total of six (6) Personal Vacation Days per year). Such Golden PVDs will have a guaranteed allocation, and must be scheduled in advance. The details concerning the allocation, staffing requirement, and process applicable to these days will be determined in a Letter of Understanding that will be executed by the Parties no less than 30 days prior to the effective date.”

The staffing requirements and process will be determined later. Sounds like the way the return days on the ltfo settlement were handled. So one of the “best parts” of this section 12 is yet to be agreed on. Anyone that was against Nancy pelosi saying we need to pass Obama care before we can read it must be throwing up right now.

How will drop requests be handled. Will golden pvds effect drop staffing requirements. Why not call it a golden drop and not have it come out of vacation?

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 09:49 AM
Is this current language? Sounds like crew scheduling can just decide to hold an open trip for a ready reserve that isn’t coming on duty till much later. What if I want to pick it up as open time and the rr guy is low time that wants to upgrade?

On that thought could I tell crew scheduling that as a low time guy I want to upgrade ASAP and get 100+ hour credited lines. Trip trade into better stuff, soak up perdiem like a mother and then not put in for the first vacancy. Also would those guys be obligated to take 145 lga or could they wait for 175?

E175 Driver
10-04-2017, 12:11 PM
Im voting yes. Heck We will see where do I fall after this vacancy bid
:rolleyes:

Pedro4President
10-04-2017, 12:51 PM
Friends, Romans, countrymen. Lend me your ears. While it’s not a good idea to negotiate in public forums because it lets management know the least they have to pay you, it is a good idea to discuss how language can and will shaft you. Let me give examples. Please don’t say that you’ll work as a captain for peanuts because it doesn’t help anyone and it also isn’t true. Please do read the loa actual language with a critical eye to how it may and will be used against you. Example:

“No less than 20% of the published reserve lines will be pre-assigned with a 1000 RAP on the first day of each block of reserve. Each of these lines will contain and be guaranteed 11 days off.” Did you guys see the “published” part. That isn’t saying that 20% or more of us will get that as an awarded rsv line. Also she note that it says no less than. Just like how our flow says no less than. Expect the worst because there is nothing in their best interest to give more without further concessions on our part later. Feel free to tear the language down but don’t talk about how much or less we will accept to get it passed.
Btw I do appreciate the hard work alpa has put forward on this I just ask myself one question. “Would I be more likely to bid reserve after this passes” the answer is no. If your not then why vote in the loop holes and help their staffing issues/loose leverage.

Your whole published vs awarded argument is due to your lack of knowledge of reserve rules.

We already have language stating published lines would be awarded proportionally. 10 lines and 67 reserve pilots. Each reserve line will have 6 or 7 pilots per line.

20% or slightly more reserve pilots will have a RAP 2.

Enync
10-04-2017, 01:06 PM
Hey guys,

We've been reading your posts and we really want you to send us your feedback.

We welcome your feedback, positive or negative - even if it is harsh criticism.

Please send us your emails of "what ifs," "whys," and general complaints. We'll do our best to respond. In the event we are unable to respond, rest easy that your emails are being read and we are considering everything that is sent to us.

Tell us the grey areas that we may have missed. Tell us what you liked. Tell us what you didn't like.

[email protected]

We represent everyone on here, so every pilot's viewpoint holds weight.

Thanks,

NC

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 01:21 PM
Cool e175. Why are you voting yes specifically. You could be on reserve again for awhile. I’d like to hear your insight.

So no more and no less than 20% of reserve lines will start at 10am on first day?

Pedro4President
10-04-2017, 01:28 PM
“Onereservelinewillcontainblocksofreservedayssucht hatnoblock of reserve days is built with more than 4 consecutive days of reserve duty.
4. Inlargerstatuses,wherethereareatleastfourteenreser velines,one reserve line will be built such that the line contains a maximum of one block of five (5) consecutive days of reserve duty.”



With regards to that whole being released at 2 pm thing. I’m no rsv line building expert but if you bid a conflict then you don’t get released at 2pm right? Because that wasn’t how the line was built. How many other trips could you possibly get released early? 3 or 4 at most for the rest of the month. On the call last night it was mentioned scheduling could just extend you. That was what I heard. Am I wrong? Could scheduling just make all the reserve lines 4 on 2 off? They could still junior man on day 5(day off) and keep you legal in low staffing situations. They also wouldn’t be obligated to get you done by 2 pm because it’s a junior man. Not scheduled

No they can't do four in two off for all reserve lines. A certain percentage has to have three sets of three days off. If it doesn't it has to have a four day off stretch.

Pedro4President
10-04-2017, 02:22 PM
The actual language is a hyperlink called “new contract” that came in the email at ~11:04am a few days ago. Very discrete.



“A Call Me First (CMF) / Call Me Last (CML) System is being created.

You may make your CMF/CML decision on the monthly bid sheet (Options menu within HIB)

You may then change your CMF/CML status prior to the beginning of the month, and again on the 15th day of that month“

We are being asked to vote again on a promise that is sure to have many loop holes. How can I say that? Why wouldn’t the company insist on loopholes after we have already said yes to the language?

This one is by far the least controversial issue. Everyone agrees with this system. The only complication is ready reserve.

Pedro4President
10-04-2017, 02:23 PM
Cool e175. Why are you voting yes specifically. You could be on reserve again for awhile. I’d like to hear your insight.

So no more and no less than 20% of reserve lines will start at 10am on first day?

No LESS than 20%.

havick206
10-04-2017, 02:30 PM
My biggest beef is the amount of ready reserve pilots being called in from RAP. It seems every time I walk into the crew room on a sit, there’s wayyyy more ready reserve pilots being called in from rap for no good reason.

Also being displaced from a sequence for IOE, you are on an even sh*ttier version of reserve. This system also needs to be tweaked.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 02:34 PM
Pedro I’m curious. Is that a side letter or just because there are 11 days off and they have to have groups of them? When staffing gets tighter could they schedule 4 on 2 off or a close variation for most of the month and then have a group of 4 days off. That way they don’t need to end us by 2 pm. I’m just trying to think like a scheduling supervisor. There’s plenty this language doesn’t say.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 02:36 PM
No LESS than 20%.

So we agree on that. Because there are no incentives for more than 20% in what situation would you see it going higher. Say like 30%?

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 02:39 PM
This one is by far the least controversial issue. Everyone agrees with this system. The only complication is ready reserve.

I’m not sure if your messing with me here. Seriously. What “system” are you speaking of. Is there a document to read on this? I copy pasted all I saw on it. Did you see more. It sounds like Berney sanders talking about free college or free healthcare. Sounds great sign me up. Where’s the language and why can’t we read it?

XNAflyer
10-04-2017, 02:43 PM
Also being displaced from a sequence for IOE, you are on an even sh*ttier version of reserve. This system also needs to be tweaked.



Really? Subject to reassignment by noon the day prior? I’d say that’s better than a 2 hour call out or standby.


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XNAflyer
10-04-2017, 02:45 PM
The LOA leaves much to be desired. I think we left way too much on the table considering the current situation of the industry. That’s all I’ll say.


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Jersdawg
10-04-2017, 02:49 PM
Really? Subject to reassignment by noon the day prior? I’d say that’s better than a 2 hour call out or standby.


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The fact that you are subject to reassignment each day is garbage. It used to be prior to the first day of the trip and that was it, either you're reassigned or off. I'd like to see what other airlines make you do that - I'd guess that it's none.

havick206
10-04-2017, 02:55 PM
Really? Subject to reassignment by noon the day prior? I’d say that’s better than a 2 hour call out or standby.


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True, I may be nit picking, but you’re being displaced from a line. Now you have to sit in hotel at base doing sweet f.a. because there’s still not a large enough window to commute home and back if they do assign you something depending on where you live.

They should only be able to get one bite of the cherry by noon the day before your sequence starts. If they haven’t re-assigned you by then you should be off the hook until the end of the sequence you were originally bumped from. Just my opinion, 1st world problems you know.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 03:09 PM
Really? Subject to reassignment by noon the day prior? I’d say that’s better than a 2 hour call out or standby.


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You are subject to be called every day prior. If your senior enough to be a line holder with an ioe guy then Your trading sweet trips for Waco turns and long stays in dallas hotels. It’s ok though. The hotels are free. Just less perdiem.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 03:11 PM
It used to be that when you were displaced you weren’t subject to reassignment and got to go on vacation for a week. I’m sure (without knowing) that Jane didn’t like that.

Bassman1985
10-04-2017, 04:37 PM
My biggest beef is the amount of ready reserve pilots being called in from RAP. It seems every time I walk into the crew room on a sit, there’s wayyyy more ready reserve pilots being called in from rap for no good reason.

Also being displaced from a sequence for IOE, you are on an even sh*ttier version of reserve. This system also needs to be tweaked.

It's basically long-call reserve. You can sit at home, not in domicile, and know at least 12 hours out if you're needed on a given day. You can commute to that kind of reserve. I just had 3 consecutive trips bought last month for IOE, and I rather enjoyed not having to be bat-signal-ready. And I only live 10 minutes from the DFW employee lot. I imagine it's great for commuters.

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 04:58 PM
Yes. Living in base is better. In the above scenario it is terrible for commuters.

Pedro4President
10-04-2017, 04:58 PM
Pedro I’m curious. Is that a side letter or just because there are 11 days off and they have to have groups of them? When staffing gets tighter could they schedule 4 on 2 off or a close variation for most of the month and then have a group of 4 days off. That way they don’t need to end us by 2 pm. I’m just trying to think like a scheduling supervisor. There’s plenty this language doesn’t say.

It's in the section where it talks about line construction. It's near the 91 hour limit on lines. It states 50% of reserve lines have to have three sets of three days off. If it does not have three sets of three then it has to have one four day in a rows off.

We could see more four day stretches due to this new rule. However, I think the unintended consequence of the two PM rule is the now CS won't let a pilot end late on day four. A pilot that ends on day four will essentially have day five off.

Cujo665
10-04-2017, 05:38 PM
It used to be that when you were displaced you weren’t subject to reassignment and got to go on vacation for a week. I’m sure (without knowing) that Jane didn’t like that.

Bingo.....

Bigpimppilot
10-04-2017, 05:49 PM
It's in the section where it talks about line construction. It's near the 91 hour limit on lines. It states 50% of reserve lines have to have three sets of three days off. If it does not have three sets of three then it has to have one four day in a rows off.

We could see more four day stretches due to this new rule. However, I think the unintended consequence of the two PM rule is the now CS won't let a pilot end late on day four. A pilot that ends on day four will essentially have day five off.


Pedro I appreciate the info. If I were Jane I would do 4 on 2 off as much as I could and not even worry about dealing with day 5. I could still junior man into day 5 if I wanted

Bob Loblaw
10-05-2017, 04:42 AM
No LESS than 20%.

Which at envoy, also means no more than.

XNAflyer
10-05-2017, 01:50 PM
True, I may be nit picking, but you’re being displaced from a line. Now you have to sit in hotel at base doing sweet f.a. because there’s still not a large enough window to commute home and back if they do assign you something depending on where you live.



They should only be able to get one bite of the cherry by noon the day before your sequence starts. If they haven’t re-assigned you by then you should be off the hook until the end of the sequence you were originally bumped from. Just my opinion, 1st world problems you know.



Ahhhh... I see. I didn’t think about it from a commuter’s perspective. I live an hour from the airport. I was displaced twice last month and ended up working 12 days last month, and two of those were OT turns.

I think it needs to be improved, just thought that describing it worse than reserve was a bit far.


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havick206
10-05-2017, 02:18 PM
Ahhhh... I see. I didn’t think about it from a commuter’s perspective. I live an hour from the airport. I was displaced twice last month and ended up working 12 days last month, and two of those were OT turns.

I think it needs to be improved, just thought that describing it worse than reserve was a bit far.


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I too live in base, at least I do now. So apart from the extra gas and tolls and less per diem yes I get more days at home. Though it’s kinda like house arrest.

When I was commuting, I only had two flight options a day and being displaced sucked.

Obviously there’s bigger fish to fry like bettering the reserve rules, increase pay scales across the board etc. though I just thought I’d add in a couple of things that get forgotten, keeping in mind as the company expands being displaced will be the norm.

Pedro4President
10-05-2017, 04:58 PM
Which at envoy, also means no more than.

If and only if the reserve lines are in multiples of 5. Anything else would end up with more than 20%.

griff312
10-05-2017, 06:41 PM
Pedro I appreciate the info. If I were Jane I would do 4 on 2 off as much as I could and not even worry about dealing with day 5. I could still junior man into day 5 if I wanted

No, that sucks for a commuter! If I can't start any earlier than say 1300 (using a 2 attempt commuter policy), then I'm guaranteed to have to come in the day prior to each reserve sequence. Unless I can proffer and get awarded something that starts late enough. But then, as an East Coast commuter, the 2nd to last flight leaves prior to confirming time. So if I don't get that trio I proffered for, then I'm screwed. So I'm pretty much having to come in the day prior every week. So there's one of 2 days off gone. Then if I finish too late to get home the last day of the trip, then there goes the other. 2 days off between reserve sequences is a life killer for a commuter in reserve.

XNAflyer
10-05-2017, 07:06 PM
I too live in base, at least I do now. So apart from the extra gas and tolls and less per diem yes I get more days at home. Though it’s kinda like house arrest.



When I was commuting, I only had two flight options a day and being displaced sucked.



Obviously there’s bigger fish to fry like bettering the reserve rules, increase pay scales across the board etc. though I just thought I’d add in a couple of things that get forgotten, keeping in mind as the company expands being displaced will be the norm.



I hear you. I don’t think removing the reassignment option would be that big of a deal since they’ve already given that in the new LOA. Just one example of one of the items left on the table.

Personally, I’ll be voting no on this LOA. Especially in light of the Endeavor TA. Our MEC needs to step it up and stop settling for peanuts.


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criticalaoa
10-05-2017, 07:42 PM
I'm voting no on this bull****. We need to shoot for more. There is a loophole the company is taking advantage with the flow and with endeavor passing their new contract we deserve better.

VOTE NO!

mketch11
10-05-2017, 11:06 PM
1. So before the company couldn't allow any PVDs due to staffing issues, but magically will be able to afford you up to two a month if this is passed (6 a year)? So this agreement somehow either changes the staffing, or they were just denying everything because they can and lying about it. These Golden-Shower-Days are just that, the company ****ing on you and telling you it's rain. How about just honoring the current system and allowing personal days when able? Then you wouldn't need Golden anything. With this new thing, if you went over your allotted amount, the company has even more reason for blanket denial. Not buying it. Plus it's first come first serve. So if too many people want the same day off, they can just "deny it due to staffing issues" anyway."
2. I'm a low time FO and I need my 1000 hrs and I want to fly and build time asap. But honestly, how many ABI turns will I have to take from someone else before I get there? Why break seniority just to get nickel-and-dimed to death? You know what a low time FO really needs? A line. How about make reserve attractive enough that someone who doesn't need time might actually consider bidding for it? I'd get my hours really quick and there goes your captain shortage problem. Oh, and since reserve wouldn't be terrible, guys who have been with the company more than 3 months will want to be in the left seat. Fixes that issue too.
As a new guy I thought this looked pretty good at first glance. After thinking about it for a while and seeing how it's more optics than substance, I'm not seeing much with this that is of any real benefit.

Bigpimppilot
10-06-2017, 05:01 AM
Very very good point. If reserve was attractive enough for senior guys then it would go senior (it had in the past) and then junior guys would have lines.

griff312
10-06-2017, 11:04 AM
1. So before the company couldn't allow any PVDs due to staffing issues, but magically will be able to afford you up to two a month if this is passed (6 a year)? So this agreement somehow either changes the staffing, or they were just denying everything because they can and lying about it. These Golden-Shower-Days are just that, the company ****ing on you and telling you it's rain. How about just honoring the current system and allowing personal days when able? Then you wouldn't need Golden anything. With this new thing, if you went over your allotted amount, the company has even more reason for blanket denial. Not buying it. Plus it's first come first serve. So if too many people want the same day off, they can just "deny it due to staffing issues" anyway."
2. I'm a low time FO and I need my 1000 hrs and I want to fly and build time asap. But honestly, how many ABI turns will I have to take from someone else before I get there? Why break seniority just to get nickel-and-dimed to death? You know what a low time FO really needs? A line. How about make reserve attractive enough that someone who doesn't need time might actually consider bidding for it? I'd get my hours really quick and there goes your captain shortage problem. Oh, and since reserve wouldn't be terrible, guys who have been with the company more than 3 months will want to be in the left seat. Fixes that issue too.
As a new guy I thought this looked pretty good at first glance. After thinking about it for a while and seeing how it's more optics than substance, I'm not seeing much with this that is of any real benefit.

^^^This guy gets it, 100%!!!

XNAflyer
10-06-2017, 01:08 PM
LOL at the latest fastread email.

The MEC should be shredding the LOA apart right now and going to management with the Endeavor TA.


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havick206
10-06-2017, 01:40 PM
LOL at the latest fastread email.

The MEC should be shredding the LOA apart right now and going to management with the Endeavor TA.


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Apparently, you can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

Rakk6
10-06-2017, 02:43 PM
1. So before the company couldn't allow any PVDs due to staffing issues, but magically will be able to afford you up to two a month if this is passed (6 a year)? So this agreement somehow either changes the staffing, or they were just denying everything because they can and lying about it. These Golden-Shower-Days are just that, the company ****ing on you and telling you it's rain. How about just honoring the current system and allowing personal days when able? Then you wouldn't need Golden anything. With this new thing, if you went over your allotted amount, the company has even more reason for blanket denial. Not buying it. Plus it's first come first serve. So if too many people want the same day off, they can just "deny it due to staffing issues" anyway."
2. I'm a low time FO and I need my 1000 hrs and I want to fly and build time asap. But honestly, how many ABI turns will I have to take from someone else before I get there? Why break seniority just to get nickel-and-dimed to death? You know what a low time FO really needs? A line. How about make reserve attractive enough that someone who doesn't need time might actually consider bidding for it? I'd get my hours really quick and there goes your captain shortage problem. Oh, and since reserve wouldn't be terrible, guys who have been with the company more than 3 months will want to be in the left seat. Fixes that issue too.
As a new guy I thought this looked pretty good at first glance. After thinking about it for a while and seeing how it's more optics than substance, I'm not seeing much with this that is of any real benefit.
Best solution I've heard to both the company's and my concerns. Our LOA is not close to truly addressing the issues people have regarding QOL -- especially compared to Endeavor's TA. Our MEC says it is a "start." It sounds more like the company buying time on the cheap.

bigtime209
10-06-2017, 03:06 PM
LOL at the latest fastread email.

The MEC should be shredding the LOA apart right now and going to management with the Endeavor TA.


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Agreed....