Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

View Full Version : Pax complains about AA on twitter


ShyGuy
10-16-2017, 12:09 AM
Curious what exactly is "white male aggression" ?



Article:
New York Women's March activist kicked off AA flight | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4983830/Pilot-boots-women-s-march-activist-flight.html)


'It definitely was white male aggression': New York Women's March activist kicked off of American Airlines flight over seat dispute blames pilot for 'being racist'



When she got to the airport, Mallory said she used an airport kiosk to change from a middle to an aisle seat. But when she arrived to the gate she was issued a new ticket that put her back in the middle. Not wanting to sit in that seat, she asked an agent why her seat had been changed. She says the staff member then responded in a 'nasty' and 'disrespectful' way. Though frustrated and still stuck in a middle seat, she assumed the dispute with the customers service representative was over, until she was approached by a pilot who overheard the exchange. The pilot, who hasn't been named, told Mallory that the gate-worker had 'nothing to do' with her seat being changed, and told her that she had been the one who acted disrespectfully.

'Then he said to me, "Can you get on this flight? Are you going to be on a problem on this flight?"' she recounted.

'I said, "No, I'm not. Actually I'm fine. But I will write my complaint down." He looked at me and said, "You're going to get yourself a one-way ticket off this plane."'

Put off, Mallory was allowed on the plane and was settling into her middle seat when she heard her name being called over the loud-speaker.

The pilot was requesting that she come to the front of the plane, and when she got there, she was told she was being removed.

'I began to express my outrage,' Mallory told the Daily News.

'Then I asked why I was being removed. I asked why this was happening to me. I told him I felt completely disrespected. I began to weep.'

She said she was never offered any sort of explanation, but that cops eventually arrived and Mallory walked off the plane. The person she was traveling with, who stayed seated until his name was called to the front, was also removed with no explanation.

The showdown, Mallory believes, was a way for the white male pilot to assert his dominance over a young, black, female passenger.

'Doesn't matter how much we do and how hard we fight, white men are allowed to treat black women like *******,' she wrote on Twitter after the incident.

'Other ppl (sic) stand by and watch it happen because it doesn't affect them. If I have to fight alone, AmericanAir will NEVER GET AWAY W/ THIS.'



Mallory also wrote on Twitter that she has spoken to multiple American Airlines representatives, all of whom say that the pilot was in the wrong.

'Every AmericanAir rep I've talked to told me the pilot mishandled the situation. He had no business getting involved in a seat dispute,' she wrote.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


awax
10-16-2017, 12:53 AM
Curious what exactly is "white male aggression" ?





It’s obviously anything the clear victim here says it is.

Al Czervik
10-16-2017, 01:35 AM
Nice thread title.


Han Solo
10-16-2017, 02:20 AM
Nice thread title.

edited, not worth the time...

ShyGuy
10-16-2017, 02:32 AM
Oops, tried to imply sarcasm but can't change the subject title now because it's not allowing edits. Mods can change it.

Hetman
10-16-2017, 02:45 AM
It was the quotation marks, right? I knew what you meant; the sarcasm came through loud and clear. Lordy.

There is certainly an element of racism in this little melodrama, but the question is begged: who is actually the racist?

patelam
10-16-2017, 02:52 AM
#cargo

This is becoming more commonplace.

ShyGuy
10-16-2017, 03:04 AM
Yeah I thought the sarcasm was clear, but just didnt want the wrong impression. I asked the mods and they changed the title in a timely manner. :)

Are there really people today who actually believe you're thrown off a plane on a US carrier based on skin color? If they're thrown off, it's because of their behavior/actions/words/threats.

Han Solo
10-16-2017, 03:41 AM
Yeah I thought the sarcasm was clear, but just didnt want the wrong impression. I asked the mods and they changed the title in a timely manner. :)

Are there really people today who actually believe you're thrown off a plane on a US carrier based on skin color? If they're thrown off, it's because of their behavior/actions/words/threats.

No, but the airlines have incentivized this behavior by paying off people like Dr. Dao instead of charging them. Make a big enough stink and hopefully your video goes viral, then you get Willy Wonka's golden ticket and a lifetime of financial stability.

Hetman
10-16-2017, 05:16 AM
Not just the airlines. It's a better bet than the lottery.

Broncofan
10-16-2017, 05:47 AM
If racism is to be taken seriously in this country, people have to stop complaining about things that clearly aren't racist. After reading articles like this and many other like this, it's hard to take real racist complaints seriously at a first glance.

Han Solo
10-16-2017, 07:29 AM
If racism is to be taken seriously in this country, people have to stop complaining about things that clearly aren't racist. After reading articles like this and many other like this, it's hard to take real racist complaints seriously at a first glance.

And imagine, the activist co-chair of the women's march just happens to be the "victim" of racism at the hands of a privileged white male. So convenient.

Qotsaautopilot
10-16-2017, 07:30 AM
Why insert yourself? Call the agent/supervisor and have them removed. No need to even get out of your seat.

AncientAliens
10-16-2017, 07:46 AM
Why insert yourself? Call the agent/supervisor and have them removed. No need to even get out of your seat.

Sadly, this. Unless someone is starting to get violent with one of your crew members no need to risk your livelihood.

Lemons
10-16-2017, 08:13 AM
Curious what exactly is "white male aggression" ?



Article:
New York Women's March activist kicked off AA flight | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4983830/Pilot-boots-women-s-march-activist-flight.html)


'It definitely was white male aggression': New York Women's March activist kicked off of American Airlines flight over seat dispute blames pilot for 'being racist'



When she got to the airport, Mallory said she used an airport kiosk to change from a middle to an aisle seat. But when she arrived to the gate she was issued a new ticket that put her back in the middle. Not wanting to sit in that seat, she asked an agent why her seat had been changed. She says the staff member then responded in a 'nasty' and 'disrespectful' way. Though frustrated and still stuck in a middle seat, she assumed the dispute with the customers service representative was over, until she was approached by a pilot who overheard the exchange. The pilot, who hasn't been named, told Mallory that the gate-worker had 'nothing to do' with her seat being changed, and told her that she had been the one who acted disrespectfully.

'Then he said to me, "Can you get on this flight? Are you going to be on a problem on this flight?"' she recounted.

'I said, "No, I'm not. Actually I'm fine. But I will write my complaint down." He looked at me and said, "You're going to get yourself a one-way ticket off this plane."'

Put off, Mallory was allowed on the plane and was settling into her middle seat when she heard her name being called over the loud-speaker.

The pilot was requesting that she come to the front of the plane, and when she got there, she was told she was being removed.

'I began to express my outrage,' Mallory told the Daily News.

'Then I asked why I was being removed. I asked why this was happening to me. I told him I felt completely disrespected. I began to weep.'

She said she was never offered any sort of explanation, but that cops eventually arrived and Mallory walked off the plane. The person she was traveling with, who stayed seated until his name was called to the front, was also removed with no explanation.

The showdown, Mallory believes, was a way for the white male pilot to assert his dominance over a young, black, female passenger.

'Doesn't matter how much we do and how hard we fight, white men are allowed to treat black women like *******,' she wrote on Twitter after the incident.

'Other ppl (sic) stand by and watch it happen because it doesn't affect them. If I have to fight alone, AmericanAir will NEVER GET AWAY W/ THIS.'



Mallory also wrote on Twitter that she has spoken to multiple American Airlines representatives, all of whom say that the pilot was in the wrong.

'Every AmericanAir rep I've talked to told me the pilot mishandled the situation. He had no business getting involved in a seat dispute,' she wrote.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

oh lordy a "race activist".

Why insert yourself? Call the agent/supervisor and have them removed. No need to even get out of your seat.

Yeah I don't understand these super captains that have to flex their dongs in public. There is no reason a pilot should ever be involved with anything on the ground EVER. The pilot should have stayed in the cockpit and done his job and not worried about something that doesn't involve him.

And imagine, the activist co-chair of the women's march just happens to be the "victim" of racism at the hands of a privileged white male. So convenient.

Most of the leaders of the women's march have interesting "histories". Linda sarsour for example has been on the wrong side of pretty much every issue and is an un-apologetic anti-Semite.

Sliceback
10-16-2017, 08:27 AM
You're responsible for the entire aircraft, crew, and passengers. Even the parts you don't care for.

Would the baby stroller removal incident from several months ago have resulted in physical contact if the CA hadn't intervened? Up until then, legally responsible for the safety of the flight, he had just been an observer and witness. When lines were crossed, as the person ultimately responsible, he intervened.

Lemons
10-16-2017, 09:41 AM
You're responsible for the entire aircraft, crew, and passengers. Even the parts you don't care for.

Would the baby stroller removal incident from several months ago have resulted in physical contact if the CA hadn't intervened? Up until then, legally responsible for the safety of the flight, he had just been an observer and witness. When lines were crossed, as the person ultimately responsible, he intervened.

No sorry, I'm not.
The people on the back on the ground are the responsibility of the gate and f/A's.

The captain in the baby stroller flight should have never gotten involved.

ShyGuy
10-16-2017, 09:43 AM
What was the stroller story, I forget?

If the pilot doesn't get involved, the media takes "aviation experts" and puts them on TV. Then those experts start chastising the Captain for not being there and taking control because it's his ship. Nevermind the split duties of who the security coordinator is at the gate versus closed up and ready for pushback. If you weren't in the picture, the media will chastice you for not taking charge. Get in the picture, and now you're on YouTube/TV. Damned if you do, and the same for don't. Personally I'd rather stay up front and let the gate agents deal with that - it's their job at that particular point.

Lemons
10-16-2017, 09:45 AM
What was the stroller story, I forget?


The one in sfo with *"suspicion and concern-causing"* *follicly challenged"* f/a and the *"irritated** Italian.

SpeedyVagabond
10-16-2017, 09:57 AM
You're responsible for the entire aircraft, crew, and passengers. Even the parts you don't care for.

Would the baby stroller removal incident from several months ago have resulted in physical contact if the CA hadn't intervened? Up until then, legally responsible for the safety of the flight, he had just been an observer and witness. When lines were crossed, as the person ultimately responsible, he intervened.

I agree with you, Sliceback. The captain obviously felt it rose to a level meriting his involvement. Based on what little I know, namely the hysterical race card playing response of the passenger, I'm leaning towards imagining she probably deserved to be removed. But I wasn't there so I won't critique him. And I wouldn't even if I had been. But that's maturity for you. Something Lemon's posts tend to lack.

SpeedyVagabond
10-16-2017, 10:04 AM
What was the stroller story, I forget?

If the pilot doesn't get involved, the media takes "aviation experts" and puts them on TV. Then those experts start chastising the Captain for not being there and taking control because it's his ship.

Exactly! Too many people running around frightened by the media. Case in point is the Delta Captain who broke up the fight between two of Atlanta's finest citizens on a jetbridge. Bravo Zulu, skipper! The media couldn't jump all over him because there was no where to go with it. Exercise some good judgement, be professional when you exercise your authority, and be a leader. I doubt very much this story will go anywhere other than having people who know this woman well nodding their heads as they acknowldege that it's no surprise she's involved.

UALfoLIFE
10-16-2017, 10:24 AM
I was accused of being aracist in 2008 because I had to have the FA move 2 people from the front to back in a crj 200. Nobody volunteered so the male Filipino FA involuntaryily moved a black couple to the back. They claimed i was the racist because I directed the FA to move them. I still get good laugh outta this from the shear stupidity level of some people.

Qotsaautopilot
10-16-2017, 10:30 AM
She probably needed to be removed. But...

1. It sounds like the first exchange was in the gate area. No way I'm going out of my way engage a visibly disgruntled passenger who isn't even on the plane.

2. If she's on the plane causing more problems and the FA reports to me as such (and the FA imo is not an instigator) all that needs to be done is make a call to ops. "Please send an agent/supervisor/etc to remove the passenger in seat xyz." Agent goes back to the passenger and asks them to collect their things. If the passenger refuses then they can call the appropriate people to make sure the passenger is removed. No need to call the passenger over the PA or even have face time with the passenger. If the agent or my supervisor wants an explanation they can ask me in private but not in front of the passenger and I'm not going to explain it to them which will only lead to a confrontation of outrage or an attempt to get me to change my mind. Neither of which has a good outcome not to mention we don't need the outside stressors right before operating the flight.

I've only had a couple removals and all were intoxicated as reported by a non dramatic FA. Never so much as had any contact with the passenger or questioned by anyone. Just stay out of it is my motto.

LNL76
10-16-2017, 10:36 AM
The one .......

Are you serious with that ignorant derogatory term for an *US Citizen*-American? Wow, just wow. Guess it's the one ethnic group it's still cool to disrespect and say such things. :mad:

rickair7777
10-16-2017, 10:48 AM
What was the stroller story, I forget?

If the pilot doesn't get involved, the media takes "aviation experts" and puts them on TV. Then those experts start chastising the Captain for not being there and taking control because it's his ship. Nevermind the split duties of who the security coordinator is at the gate versus closed up and ready for pushback. If you weren't in the picture, the media will chastice you for not taking charge. Get in the picture, and now you're on YouTube/TV. Damned if you do, and the same for don't. Personally I'd rather stay up front and let the gate agents deal with that - it's their job at that particular point.


But if you intervene you get to be live on the six o'clock news. If you stay out of line of site the worst they could do is learn your name... not newsworthy if you didn't do anything outrageous. You can't be faulted for calling GSC or cops, as appropriate... that's most likely what your GOM says anyway.

But ANY footage will edited, "commentated on", and "re-contexted" to make your actions appear outrageous.

I think staying out of sight and letting the system deal with it is the win today.

RhinoBallAuto
10-16-2017, 11:44 AM
Body cams for all!

METO Guido
10-16-2017, 01:14 PM
The one in sfo with *"suspicion and concern-causing"* *follicly challenged"* f/a and the *"irritated** Italian.
Seems I'm getting hit twice here?

https://s1.postimg.org/7e772zbf3j/Clemenza.png (https://postimages.org/)

NEDude
10-17-2017, 04:35 AM
I agree with you, Sliceback. The captain obviously felt it rose to a level meriting his involvement. Based on what little I know, namely the hysterical race card playing response of the passenger, I'm leaning towards imagining she probably deserved to be removed. But I wasn't there so I won't critique him. And I wouldn't even if I had been. But that's maturity for you. Something Lemon's posts tend to lack.

For most airlines, if not all, the gate agent is the ground security coordinator (GSC). The captain does not take ultimate responsibility for security of the aircraft until the door is closed. Obviously the captain can refuse to accept the responsibility if s/he is not satisfied with the onboard security before the door is closed. But since the gate agent technically has the ultimate responsibility while on the gate, there is no reason to personally involve yourself beyond requesting the agent arrange for the removal of the passenger.

ShyGuy
10-25-2017, 05:14 AM
Not related to this particular incident per say, didn’t want to start a new thread:


NAACP warns black passengers about traveling with American Airlines - Oct. 25, 2017 (http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/25/news/companies/naacp-travel-advisory-american-airlines/index.html)

METO Guido
10-25-2017, 05:26 AM
Not related to this particular incident per say, didn’t want to start a new thread:


NAACP warns black passengers about traveling with American Airlines - Oct. 25, 2017 (http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/25/news/companies/naacp-travel-advisory-american-airlines/index.html)
I don't even know what to say? All the time & money spent to avoid this kind of thing, here's the result. Doesn’t matter, they'll throw more money at it, both sides.

You know what happens? Because people are insecure, by nature, they seek alliance or identify strongly with groups appearing similar. Illusion mostly, in order to make themselves feel bigger, protected. Becomes habit & prompts others to do the same. So then everybody goes around, labeling and making assumptions about who you are before they ever see the first thing about you as a person. Which, in turn, leads to exaggerated & false claims of being treated unfairly if you don't get special attention or whatever else you believed was promised as the MasterCard charge went through on Expedia.

Meanwhile, from the CEO inner sanctum:
Bad publicity? No way, find a patsy. Didn't come this far to have some boarding schizoid tarnish my sterling image, not to mention one penny of the compensation entitled a man of my obvious talent & stature. Prepare a statement, apologizing for the unfortunate conduct of…gate agent, flight attendant, pilot, whatever floats. Mention we are only following protocol the doughnut squad advised us to do. Authorize legal to buy claimant's silence in exchange for his/her unthinkable viral embarrassment, before lunch if possible. Well, there's a surprise, others see opportunity and copy cat. Cost of doing business these days. Don't just stand there, go draft some more apologies fart face.

DownInPetaluma
10-25-2017, 06:37 AM
Flying freight has never sounded more appealing.

casual observer
10-25-2017, 06:54 AM
It's not racist airlines, it's opportunist partisans and media.

Airline operations are challenging and there are multiple opportunities for any and all people to be inconvenienced, displaced, or ignored.

Partisans and the media profit by exaggerating the extent and occurrences of racism.

So, when the inevitable slight or inconvenience that happens to anyone, happens to a member of a media appointed target group of racism, that person has been conditioned to believe the incident is not happenstance, but an incidence of racism.

If a customer believes (falsely or not) they are the victim of racism, it will understandable cause them to be upset and act disruptively.

Airline employees have been trained to deal with disruptive passengers. They are not being racist, if they are reacting to the behavior and not the physical attributes of the person.

The behavior was set in motion, not from actual racism by the airline, but by the zeitgeist of ubiquitous racism that partisans and the media have fostered for their own benefit.

That is a cancer to our society.

Instead of the NAACP charging American Airlines with racism, they should be scrutinizing the motives and affect CNN and the self fulfilling charges of racism are having on the people they are supposed to be championing.

Lemons
10-25-2017, 07:36 AM
I wonder how much they are going to shakedown aa for?

hilltopflyer
10-25-2017, 10:01 AM
Didn't you know that everyone is racist now a days? Sad that the NAACP uses this as it's new stance.

detpilot
10-25-2017, 12:59 PM
They're meeting with AA leadership to discuss how to improve the image. So much for considering both sides of an issue... But of course, this forum is chock full of pilots, not exactly the most diverse group. So I'm not surprised.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

hilltopflyer
10-25-2017, 01:25 PM
They're meeting with AA leadership to discuss how to improve the image. So much for considering both sides of an issue... But of course, this forum is chock full of pilots, not exactly the most diverse group. So I'm not surprised.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

What else is aa management suppose to do?

detpilot
10-25-2017, 01:50 PM
What else is aa management suppose to do?Nothing... They're doing exactly what they should. Listening, hopefully with an open mind... Which is more than it seems many on this thread are willing to do. That's all I'm saying.
On one hand, some people do over react to minor slights. On the other hand, some people are actually bigots. There is right and wrong on both sides, and immediately villifying one half of the debate is not productive.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

bnkangle
10-25-2017, 02:22 PM
What else is aa management suppose to do?

Sue them for slander, libel and defamation.

METO Guido
10-25-2017, 02:24 PM
Total, 100% pure, dog crap. Fall fund raiser, nothing more. Getting to the point where you either have to live somewhere it's never necessary to travel or have a pal who'll let you borrow the Lear. AA, all of them, only opponent they've willingness to take on is their own employees.

hilltopflyer
10-25-2017, 02:25 PM
Sue them for slander, libel and defamation.

That would be a pr nightmare. It is funny how the other organization didn't even give details of where and when. Just generalizations

Lemons
10-25-2017, 03:17 PM
What else is aa management suppose to do?

Why even acknowledge the NAACP? Does anyone take them seriously anymore?

They're meeting with AA leadership to discuss how to improve the image. So much for considering both sides of an issue... But of course, this forum is chock full of pilots, not exactly the most diverse group. So I'm not surprised.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Aka they are discussing the "donation" AA will make to make this "go away".

Nothing... They're doing exactly what they should. Listening, hopefully with an open mind... Which is more than it seems many on this thread are willing to do. That's all I'm saying.
On one hand, some people do over react to minor slights. On the other hand, some people are actually bigots. There is right and wrong on both sides, and immediately villifying one half of the debate is not productive.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Given the facts of these 4 situations there is a right and wrong side in all of this and it looks like as usual race had no part in any of this. When you appease this kind of shakedown you just enable more of it. This is how blacklivesmatter was able to spread their nonsense for so long until people got tired of it.

SpeedyVagabond
10-25-2017, 03:22 PM
But of course, this forum is chock full of pilots, not exactly the most diverse group. So I'm not surprised.


So you're really allowing that this pilot may have thrown this woman off the plane in part or perhaps in total because of the color of her skin? Why don't you google Mrs. Mallory and read some of her prolific writings on social media. I did. I'm certain that she had most of the blame for her behavior and getting to take a different flight.

SpeedyVagabond
10-25-2017, 03:34 PM
Oh by the way. It's unsubstantiated but I read an account by a passenger on the flight who claims she was using foul language loudly in front of all and that her removal was met with cheers. I hope some amateur news smartphone video of the event surfaces.

Lemons
10-25-2017, 03:35 PM
Oh by the way. It's unsubstantiated but I read an account by a passenger on the flight who claims she was using foul language loudly in front of all and that her removal was met with cheers. I hope some amateur news smartphone video of the event surfaces.

Wouldn't surprise me, she was one the Pu**yhat march organizers.

SpeedyVagabond
10-25-2017, 03:46 PM
In case anyone is interested, the unsubstantiated eyewitness report I referenced was on Heavy. They seem to be pretty unbiased although I don't know anything about them.

bnkangle
10-25-2017, 04:48 PM
That would be a pr nightmare.

Yeah, it's a double standard. I don't understand why the naacp has any credibility.

detpilot
10-25-2017, 05:01 PM
Why even acknowledge the NAACP? Does anyone take them seriously anymore?

Something tells me you never took them seriously at any point.


This is how blacklivesmatter was able to spread their nonsense for so long until people got tired of it.

I see I'm wasting my time with you. Carry on, sir.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Lemons
10-25-2017, 05:27 PM
Something tells me you never took them seriously at any point.


You're right they have been irrelevant for decades.

sACKtis
10-25-2017, 06:22 PM
Arent colored people advanced enough? Do we need an NAACP anymore. They can vote and stuff

atpcliff
10-25-2017, 06:56 PM
AA responded to the media re: this situation. AA said they looked into past complaints, and found a pattern of racist behavior towards Black customers on AA. They are taking it seriously and are talking face to face with the woman involved in this article, as well as the NAACP.

I believe humans are naturally racist. In today's modern world, it is a BIG problem. If nothing is done, then our innate racism gets worse and causes problems. I think the only way to fix our racism problem is to face it and try and mitigate it as much as practical.

Freight? Sometimes PAX flights have serious problems, and sometimes freight flights have serious problems. I would say that freight IS better, if you want to limit you contact with other humans.

rickair7777
10-25-2017, 07:17 PM
I believe humans are naturally racist. In today's modern world, it is a BIG problem. If nothing is done, then our innate racism gets worse and causes problems. I think the only way to fix our racism problem is to face it and try and mitigate it as much as practical.


I think humans are inherently tribal, spring-loaded to them vs. us conflict.

The exact definitions of "them" and "us" are quite situationally dependent. Anything from tribe, to politics, to associated football team. Obvious physical differences (like skin color) are easy to fixate on. But so are things like dress and grooming.

Where this is a problem is if good people are getting associated with bad people based on identifying factors beyond their control. Skin color is beyond your control; dress and grooming are not.

badflaps
10-26-2017, 01:12 AM
I think humans are inherently tribal, spring-loaded to them vs. us conflict.

The exact definitions of "them" and "us" are quite situationally dependent. Anything from tribe, to politics, to associated football team. Obvious physical differences (like skin color) are easy to fixate on. But so are things like dress and grooming.

Where this is a problem is if good people are getting associated with bad people based on identifying factors beyond their control. Skin color is beyond your control; dress and grooming are not.
I was on the subway the other day, at a stop known for police presence, two gentlemen pulled their pants up before they exited.:D

bnkangle
10-26-2017, 02:50 AM
I believe humans are naturally racist.

No. It's a learned behavior and blacks are the worst offenders.

freezingflyboy
10-26-2017, 06:31 AM
Based on some of the garbage I've heard spewed on the flight deck, I don't think it's UNREASONABLE to say that a fair number of pilots are bigots or at the very least, lower case "r" racist.

From my observations, many seem to willingly turn a blind eye/deaf ear to the struggles faced by other fellow Americans. To quote the great Ben Folds, "it ain't easy being male, middle class and white".

Signed,
A flight deck liberal.

SpeedyVagabond
10-26-2017, 06:41 AM
I guess I've been lucky in my long 121 career. I've only had a couple of guys even start to go down that road before I aggressively stomped it out. I did a lot of soul searching afterward tying to figure out what about my behavior or words with them indicated I'd even remotely be interested in their racist bs.

jcountry
10-26-2017, 07:58 AM
Airlines should stop rewarding this behavior.

NO ONE was kicked off any flight because of skin color.... NO ONE!

But every single jackass who is making a complaint probably just got an assload of free flights. Lying pays well these days.

Just make some stupid accusation with no evidence of anything and get paid. It’s the way the world works now.

Sluggo_63
10-26-2017, 08:18 AM
I guess I've been lucky in my long 121 career. I've only had a couple of guys even start to go down that road before I aggressively stomped it out. I did a lot of soul searching afterward tying to figure out what about my behavior or words with them indicated I'd even remotely be interested in their racist bs.I've thought the same thing. Guys (gals?) are way too quick to assume that everyone that looks like them, thinks like them. I've had way more than my share conversations started where I'm thinking... "this guy knows nothing about me" and "he's going to get himself in trouble one day." They start in without even trying to figure out if I'm gay, have a son/daughter who is gay, if I'm in an inter-racial marriage, if one of my kids are, if I've adopted a black child... nothing. It's crazy.

SpeedyVagabond
10-26-2017, 08:55 AM
Exactly sluggo. I've got a couple of good friends that are gay. It astonishes me that anyone gets hung up on that anymore. That one is easy to stomp out. When the stranger next to me starts down that road I tell them I have a very close friend who is gay. Then I watch them uncomfortably squirm as they try to figure out what to do next after embarrassing themselves.

ShyGuy
10-26-2017, 09:02 AM
Two separate issues. One can think anything, and unless they open their mouth and say bad things then those thoughts are private in their own mind. But that’s not what this NAACP issue is about. They’re saying there’s a systematic discrimination against black people, with an implied racism and bias against them. That’s the issue. How can they state this without any proof? Now are there some pilots and flight attendants that are racist or bigots? Sure. But you mean to tell me that these racists are teaming up and kicking black people off? No way. To be removed from an airplane by definition means it’s not a one man job. Most likely, the FAs notice the issue first (drunk, belligerent, etc), they inform the pilots. Pilots get the gate agents involved and/or the ground security coordinator. It’s usually a party of different people with different backgrounds, and then the decision is made. It has nothing to do with race. And in this job, we have to be extra careful of someone is removed to make sure they weren’t removed for any wrong reason (eg, a disability that is allowed per the ADA rules, etc).

TL;DR........ If you’re being kicked off the plane, it’s not because of your skin color. It’s most likely because you were being an a****le in some way.

Lemons
10-26-2017, 09:20 AM
Exactly sluggo. I've got a couple of good friends that are gay. It astonishes me that anyone gets hung up on that anymore. That one is easy to stomp out. When the stranger next to me starts down that road I tell them I have a very close friend who is gay. Then I watch them uncomfortably squirm as they try to figure out what to do next after embarrassing themselves.

Think it has more to do with things like forcing christian bakers to bake them a cake or making everyone tolerate the delusion in thinking you can change your gender. (spoiler alert: you can't).

From my observations, many seem to willingly turn a blind eye/deaf ear to the struggles faced by other fellow Americans.
what if those struggles are self induced?

jcountry
10-26-2017, 09:33 AM
Two separate issues. One can think anything, and unless they open their mouth and say bad things then those thoughts are private in their own mind. But that’s not what this NAACP issue is about. They’re saying there’s a systematic discrimination against black people, with an implied racism and bias against them. That’s the issue. How can they state this without any proof? Now are there some pilots and flight attendants that are racist or bigots? Sure. But you mean to tell me that these racists are teaming up and kicking black people off? No way. To be removed from an airplane by definition means it’s not a one man job. Most likely, the FAs notice the issue first (drunk, belligerent, etc), they inform the pilots. Pilots get the gate agents involved and/or the ground security coordinator. It’s usually a party of different people with different backgrounds, and then the decision is made. It has nothing to do with race. And in this job, we have to be extra careful of someone is removed to make sure they weren’t removed for any wrong reason (eg, a disability that is allowed per the ADA rules, etc).

TL;DR........ If you’re being kicked off the plane, it’s not because of your skin color. It’s most likely because you were being an a****le in some way.

Exactly.....

This organization is running the exact protection racket the mob used to.....

To paraphrase:
“Wouldn’t it be a shame if your business were boycotted??? A small contribution of 50 million and we will ensure that doesn’t happen...”

Disgusting that any organization gets away with this crap. Even more disgusting that it’s never prosecuted. It’s illegal. Extortion is a crime. Without proof, this is extortion.

Unpilot
10-26-2017, 09:43 AM
Think it has more to do with things like forcing christian bakers to bake them a cake or making everyone tolerate the delusion in thinking you can change your gender. (spoiler alert: you can't).


what if those struggles are self induced?

The thing is baking cakes and gender fluidity is not the problem here.
It is the problem of thinking of fellow humans as a “other” rather than a human.

I fit the look/age of someone who you or others may think is interested in talking about “others” but I am not.

I have a son who is gay and spoiler alert it is not a “choice”

SpeedyVagabond
10-26-2017, 10:03 AM
To Lemons and his ilk, it is a choice. They're really compassionate and understanding people.

GogglesPisano
10-26-2017, 10:06 AM
AA responded to the media re: this situation. AA said they looked into past complaints, and found a pattern of racist behavior towards Black customers on AA. .

Do you have a link for this?

Lemons
10-26-2017, 10:17 AM
The thing is baking cakes and gender fluidity is not the problem here.
It is the problem of thinking of fellow humans as a “other” rather than a human.

I fit the look/age of someone who you or others may think is interested in talking about “others” but I am not.

I have a son who is gay and spoiler alert it is not a “choice”

no one said it was, the choice is to make lifestyle out of their perceived "oppression".

To Lemons and his ilk, it is a choice. They're really compassionate and understanding people.

I have no compassion for people who want to change social norms and biology for their delusion.

tyler durden
10-26-2017, 10:21 AM
Blows me away how we waste so much time and energy distracted by these never ending social media-driven nauseating hyper-sensitized topics.

Dissertations on race, sexual identity, gender identification, respect, blah... all while we ignore critical issues like oh, I don't know, geopolitical instability, famine, war, a broken political system, runaway federal debt, unemployment, single parent families, natural disasters, broken education system, people getting mowed down in concerts, homicide rates in inner cities, threats of nuclear anhialation, energy, etc.

Sad that so many opine and pontificate endlessly over hyped up social issues but know nothing of the iceberg that approaches. Squeaky wheels like the NAACP, lacking substance, screaming so loud they drown out and distract us from the real pressing concerns that face us as a nation.

Those of us that routinely travel outside of the US can attest to the real issues and concerns facing developing countries and how little time they can afford to waste with what they surely consider silly diversions. I'm sure they find our misplaced anger and deeply felt injustice to be trite and amusing. Many of them, more concerned with their next meal, can only dream of air travel.

Distracted with first world problems as we quickly descend into a dumbed-down second world country.

SpeedyVagabond
10-26-2017, 10:37 AM
Blows me away how we waste so much time and energy distracted by these never ending social media-driven nauseating hyper-sensitized topics.

Dissertations on race, sexual identity, gender identification, respect, blah... all while we ignore critical issues like oh, I don't know, geopolitical instability, famine, war, a broken political system, runaway federal debt, unemployment, single parent families, natural disasters, broken education system, people getting mowed down in concerts, homicide rates in inner cities, threats of nuclear anhialation, energy, etc.

Sad that so many opine and pontificate endlessly over hyped up social issues but know nothing of the iceberg that approaches. Squeaky wheels like the NAACP, lacking substance, screaming so loud they drown out and distract us from the real pressing concerns that face us as a nation.

Those of us that routinely travel outside of the US can attest to the real issues and concerns facing developing countries and how little time they can afford to waste with these type discussions. I'm sure they find our misplaced anger and deeply felt injustice to be trite and amusing.

Distracted with first world problems as we quickly descend into a dumbed-down second world country. Sad.

Those topics can't be discussed and absorbed via Twitter so don't expect much over the next three years. Our dear leader is incapable of complex thought and ideas. Anyone who still supports him is much less so.

atpcliff
10-26-2017, 10:59 AM
Do you have a link for this?


American Airlines contacts Tamika Mallory over seat dispute - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/american-airlines-contacts-tamika-mallory-seat-dispute-article-1.3577474)
“We have also heard the voices of customers responding to Ms. Mallory's social media posts, sharing experiences with us (that are) inconsistent with our commitment to treating all customers with equality and respect.”

atpcliff
10-26-2017, 11:05 AM
In my opinion, the most important event in US history was Bacon's Rebellion. That event illustrates our main problems with class and race that is negatively affecting the US today.
Prior to Bacon's Rebellion, it was legal for Black and White people to marry. Also, prior to BR, in Jamestown, a Black Slave could obtain his freedom by becoming Christian and getting baptised.

The biggest external threat facing individuals, and the US as a whole today, is Global Warming. It is already killing US residents and causing Billions of dollars in damages each year, and will only get significantly worse.

Both GW and the rampant anti-Black racism in the US are either unrecognized, or off-limits for discussion among a large group of the residents in our our country.

METO Guido
10-26-2017, 11:14 AM
Dissertations on race, sexual identity, gender identification, respect, blah... all while we ignore critical issues like oh, I don't know, geopolitical instability, famine, war, a broken political system, runaway federal debt, unemployment, single parent families, natural disasters, broken education system, people getting mowed down in concerts, homicide rates in inner cities, threats of nuclear anhialation, energy, etc.

Sad that so many opine and pontificate endlessly over hyped up social issues but know nothing of the iceberg that approaches.

Makes me uneasy when wisdom tries to work its way into these threads. Think I'll go pop in a VHS of Billy Jack.

tPNDBEuKCdY

dawgdriver
10-26-2017, 11:21 AM
Not to let facts get in the way of the racist theory, but the only mention of race, and quite derogatory, was by Mallory, herself a self-described activist.

"The showdown, Mallory believes, was a way for the white male pilot to assert his dominance over a young, black, female passenger.
'Doesn't matter how much we do and how hard we fight, white men are allowed to treat black women like *******,' she wrote on Twitter after the incident."

Webster's definition of racism being "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacity..."

Was Mallory not being racist?

atpcliff
10-26-2017, 11:39 AM
Not to let facts get in the way of the racist theory, but the only mention of race, and quite derogatory, was by Mallory, herself a self-described activist.

As I posted in the official AA response to this issue, AA representatives themselves said that race was a problem at AA regards how they treat their customers.

GogglesPisano
10-26-2017, 11:45 AM
American Airlines contacts Tamika Mallory over seat dispute - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/american-airlines-contacts-tamika-mallory-seat-dispute-article-1.3577474)

Customers "Sharing experiences" is not the same as "AA said they looked into past complaints, and found a pattern of racist behavior towards Black customers on AA."

The first is opinion/accusation, the second is a statement of fact.

atpcliff
10-26-2017, 11:49 AM
Customers "Sharing experiences" is not the same as "AA said they looked into past complaints, and found a pattern of racist behavior towards Black customers on AA."

The first is opinion/accusation, the second is a statement of fact.

You left out the important part:
sharing experiences with us (that are) inconsistent with our commitment to treating all customers with equality and respect.”

AA officially said that some of their customers have not been treated with "Equality and Respect"

GogglesPisano
10-26-2017, 11:51 AM
You left out the important part:

Doesn't mean it actually happened. They're succumbing to the shakedown with a mea culpa. It's the first step in financial mitigation.

dawgdriver
10-26-2017, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately Mallory is a product of a deeply divided society that has taught her that her voice should be heard above others and that she's exempt from rules that apply to others. She's allowed to propagate her unfettered racist rants over social media without fear of being labelled a racist--because of her race. No one argues with her for fear of being labelled a racist. Ironic, isn't it?

Not to be labelled a racist myself (heaven forbid), I can say from first hand experience that her behavior is based more on societal influences and biases than her race. Travel through Africa and see for yourself how different the locals behave compared to their more affluent African American counterparts. Unless you're dealing with a warlord in a war torn region, you'll find the local population to be humbling in their kindness and hospitality. Wonderful people.

This racist behavior has less to do with one's race, and more to do with the sense of indignation and entitlement that brings about such anger and disenfranchisement. In spite of best intentions, failed government programs along with agencies like the NAACP, race-baiters like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, etc., have made it an 'Us vs. Them' because it advances their agenda.

"Can't we all just get along?" :D

tyler durden
10-26-2017, 12:32 PM
Not to let facts get in the way of the racist theory, but the only mention of race, and quite derogatory, was by Mallory, herself a self-described activist.

"The showdown, Mallory believes, was a way for the white male pilot to assert his dominance over a young, black, female passenger.
'Doesn't matter how much we do and how hard we fight, white men are allowed to treat black women like *******,' she wrote on Twitter after the incident."

Webster's definition of racism being "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacity..."

Was Mallory not being racist?

An admonition from one of our greatest leaders, reference her statement towards the (white) pilot:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Martin Luther King

Lemons
10-26-2017, 12:47 PM
Not to let facts get in the way of the racist theory, but the only mention of race, and quite derogatory, was by Mallory, herself a self-described activist.

"The showdown, Mallory believes, was a way for the white male pilot to assert his dominance over a young, black, female passenger.
'Doesn't matter how much we do and how hard we fight, white men are allowed to treat black women like *******,' she wrote on Twitter after the incident."

Webster's definition of racism being "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacity..."

Was Mallory not being racist?

The biggest racists are those that claim to be anti racist.

Lemons
10-26-2017, 12:51 PM
The biggest external threat facing individuals, and the US as a whole today, is Global Warming. It is already killing US residents and causing Billions of dollars in damages each year, and will only get significantly worse.

Both GW and the rampant anti-Black racism in the US are either unrecognized, or off-limits for discussion among a large group of the residents in our our country.

There is almost no anti-black racism in America. Nothing on the government at least.

Also as far as your claim that global warming is ravaging the planet and killing Americans, that is not true and even if it was there is no proof to the claim that humans are causing it or that humans could stop a natrual cycle which is what global warming is. Hurricanes have always exited and if you look at the data we are in a relative weak time in number of hurricanes.

Those topics can't be discussed and absorbed via Twitter so don't expect much over the next three years. Our dear leader is incapable of complex thought and ideas. Anyone who still supports him is much less so.

He's rightfully ignoring and dismantling the institutions and organizations that push and exasperate these forms of cultural terrorism. Also the majority bodntax payers and employed people voted gop it's only societies leehes that still support the left and their failed policies. Gonna be a long 7 years.

ShyGuy
10-26-2017, 01:00 PM
You left out the important part:


AA officially said that some of their customers have not been treated with "Equality and Respect"

Wait a minute, that's from the so-called "stories" that people are telling. There is no proof it was racism that got them kicked off the plane! How is AA concluding that there were race issues, based solely on a complaint from a passenger? I agree with Lemons, it's not the same thing. No factual data or proof that AA employees are systematically being racist and show bias against black people.

SpeedyVagabond
10-26-2017, 01:13 PM
An admonition from one of our greatest leaders, reference her statement towards the (white) pilot:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Martin Luther King



I wonder what she'd say or do if she read this. I wonder if she'd rise to the occasion and be the leader she wants to be and thinks she is after reflecting upon Mr. King's words. The NAACP has lost much of my respect over this whole affair.

GogglesPisano
10-26-2017, 02:06 PM
AA officially said that some of their customers said they have not been treated with "Equality and Respect"

This is probably what AA wished they could say.

As I said, at this point it's about making a deal.

itsmytime
10-26-2017, 08:16 PM
The biggest racists are those that claim to be anti racist.

At least you never tried to claim you're an anti-racist. Otherwise, you failed to see the irony in your own statement.

sACKtis
10-26-2017, 09:55 PM
Colored people in the US are fine. Wanna see real racists go to Japan

deadseal
10-27-2017, 06:23 AM
The biggest racists are those that claim to be anti racist.

Sooo if I say I don't like racist people then I'm racist? How does that work? Do tell.

I can't wait until your grandkids have gender identity issues or marries someone that isn't white, republican, or Christian, and it blows your old stagnant geezer head clean off. Have someone take a video and post it on liveleak please

It must be fun to completey ignore white privelage. I dare you to spend a week in the projects. Otherwise you are just a little man standing on his little hill without a drop of empathy or a clue of historical facts and how they relate to distribution of wealth.

Clown

Slaphappy
10-27-2017, 06:45 AM
It must be fun to completey ignore white privelage.

to distribution of wealth.



There is no such thing, that's a weak excuses for success envy.

Also wealth is created.

Unpilot
10-27-2017, 06:59 AM
There is no such thing, that's a weak excuses for success envy.

Also wealth is created.

Privilege is never perceived as such by those that have it.

As far as Wealth creation goes do you mean Wealth like our current resident of the white house created?

deadseal
10-27-2017, 07:09 AM
Or do you mean the accumulation of wealth on the backs of slaves? Or Jim Crow? Did you ever read a history book bruh?

KSwift76
10-27-2017, 07:09 AM
There is no such thing, that's a weak excuses for success envy.

Also wealth is created.

WOW! You honestly believe that White males are in positions of power because just in general they are more successful. I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that you started about 400 years ahead and it wasn't until the middle of the last century that minorities even had an opportunity to play the game. Wow!

Here's the difference. I'm a minority male at a major airline. My father was a teacher not an airline pilot. His parents were college educated (grandfather was a principal (of a segregated high school) and grandmother was a professor (at an HBCU)). I would say pretty successful for Black folks in the early 1900's. However, there were certain "opportunities" that were not available to him...for example airline pilot. Dr, lawyer, teacher, farmer, and professor at an an HBCU were about his only options. That's what many people mean when mentioning that minorities start from behind.

Not complaining, just trying to enlighten some folks who think that everyone is born equal in this country with the same opportunities. Airline pilot was not an option until my generation...and my family was from Tuskegee, AL where there was a lot of exposure to aviation.

Slaphappy
10-27-2017, 07:36 AM
Wealth is not a finite resource, it something created so it's not something that can be distributed.

As far as so-called privilege, the playing field was leveled legally and econimically a long time ago. There are many immigrants that come here with zero (my parents included) that are able to easily achieve much in one generation so the ancestral wealth for success line doesn't hold much weight. I dare say those that are perceived as marginalized have the real privilege as there is a push for diversity at all costs. In the end failure is almost 100% the result of life choices. In 2017 you can't use Jim Crowe as a reason anymore.

dawgdriver
10-27-2017, 07:43 AM
A study of wealth creation and privilege should also include a review of wealth destruction. Realize most of the former multi-millionaires covered in this article are college graduates.

In 2009, Sports Illustrated did a study of former NFL and NBA players. After only 2 years of retirement, 78 percent of NFL players were either broke or struggling financially. Within 5 years of retirement, 60 percent of NBA players are broke.

Why NFL Players Are So Likely to Declare Bankruptcy | Money (http://time.com/money/3821404/nfl-players-retire-bankruptcy-life-expectancy/)

Who do we blame for this? Did these college-educated athletes not have access to the same investment vehicles that the rest of us have? Blowing tens, even hundreds of millions in 2-5 years is incomprehensible to the average middle class, but points to the bigger picture: are people poor because of circumstances beyond their control? or are they destined to be poor, regardless of how much they make?

Another group that squandered their sudden fortune: Lottery winners. 70% ended up bankrupt. This group also started with nothing and ended with nothing.

Why do 70 percent of lottery winners end up bankrupt? | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2016/01/why_do_70_percent_of_lottery_w.html)

And then, there's the opposite:

Some of the world's billionaires took themselves from the streets to the top of the Forbes' list.

Despite mounting evidence that it's becoming increasingly difficult to build such wealth, these 15 incredible stories are proof that it is possible to overcome life's toughest challenges and create something better for yourself.

15 Inspirational Rags-To-Riches Stories - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/rags-to-riches-stories-2011-11)

In contrast, with so many examples of average, even poor Americans creating great wealth, or immigrants who came to the US penniless and created a fortune through hard work and wise investing, it negates the idea that wealth, or the lack thereof, is race-related . Furthermore, it negates the successes of many hard working, successful African American CEOs, business owners and entrepreneurs who also started with nothing.

In today's America, many, of all backgrounds and ethnicities, educated or not, inherit and squander their wealth. Others create it. It's not a matter of race, education or privilege; its about making wise choices and living within your means.

Excuses may have been valid in the past when certain races--and nationalities, were institutionally barred (African American, Chinese, Irish immigrants), but not anymore.

METO Guido
10-27-2017, 07:48 AM
Seeking opportunity for those purportedly represented? Super. Cashing chips by tainting an airline for racist "patterns," where's the body of evidence? I don't like middle seats. I've been treated less politely than I felt deserving by airline staff; white & black, female & male. Haven't been kicked off, yet. Wasn't there, so it's impossible to say what the conflict between this passenger and pilot was all about, given the sketchiest of details provided. I do believe economy seating is too optimized for the amount of beef it's intended to restrain. Way too optimized.

KSwift76
10-27-2017, 08:13 AM
Wealth is not a finite resource, it something created so it's not something that can be distributed.

As far as so-called privilege, the playing field was leveled legally and econimically a long time ago. There are many immigrants that come here with zero (my parents included) that are able to easily achieve much in one generation so the ancestral wealth for success line doesn't hold much weight. I dare say those that are perceived as marginalized have the real privilege as there is a push for diversity at all costs. In the end failure is almost 100% the result of life choices. In 2017 you can't use Jim Crowe as a reason anymore.

While definitely better and there are more opportunities to say that we are all equal and have the same opportunity is not true. I see it daily when volunteering at my kids school how children are treated differently based initially on color but on then on economic status and involvement of parents. It is amazing to see how teachers or any White people react much differently to me when it comes out in conversation that I am an airline pilot. If I have a hoodie on (yes I do wear them because they are very functional as well as listen to rap music), then I generally am received much differently. I carry myself the same in all situations. That is the difference. I have to "prove or validate" that I belong in the neighborhood I live whereas generally, from what I see, someone who doesn't look like me is given the benefit of the doubt initially. By chance were your ancestors White?

Not trying to argue, just promoting discussion as it needs to be talked about logically by educated individuals and not argued about from soap boxes.

dawgdriver
10-27-2017, 09:13 AM
While definitely better and there are more opportunities to say that we are all equal and have the same opportunity is not true. I see it daily when volunteering at my kids school how children are treated differently based initially on color but on then on economic status and involvement of parents. It is amazing to see how teachers or any White people react much differently to me when it comes out in conversation that I am an airline pilot. If I have a hoodie on (yes I do wear them because they are very functional as well as listen to rap music), then I generally am received much differently. I carry myself the same in all situations. That is the difference. I have to "prove or validate" that I belong in the neighborhood I live whereas generally, from what I see, someone who doesn't look like me is given the benefit of the doubt initially. By chance were your ancestors White?



Not trying to argue, just promoting discussion as it needs to be talked about logically by educated individuals and not argued about from soap boxes.

I agree, dialogue is essential if we are to arrive at consensus and walk in others' shoes. But please realize that goes both ways. Unfortunately, all perspectives/voices are not always heard equally, especially in today's hyper sensitized environment. At the risk of being politically incorrect and labelled a racist, allow me to forward a different perspective.

Quote: "...to say that we are all equal and have the same opportunity is not true."

True, but we disagree on which group gets institutionally discriminated against in today's airline industry. Allow me to explain. As you say, things are better for African Americans, much better. The fact you are a successful airline pilot, destined to create wealth and pass that down to your children, put them through college, is evidence of that. Tragically, that could not have happened in past generations. But that was then. Fast forward to today's America where well-intentioned efforts have been made by our Government (Affirmative Action, Civil Rights Bill, EEOC, Congressional Black Caucus.) and agencies such as OBAP, NAACP, Black College Fund, etc., have provided opportunities unthinkable to your ancestors. Those programs are not available to others, many of which also lack the financial means to become airline pilots.

In our industry, due to a variety of reasons not necessarily financial, women and minorities are under-represented. Well intentioned efforts are made to bolster their numbers, such as preferential hiring, scholarships (99s, Women in Aviation, etc.). Inevitably, preferential hiring of one group must come at the expense of another. That group will invariably feel cheated and discriminated against. As much as it may seem fair to compensate for discriminatory ideologies and programs of the past, in the eyes of today's young white male applicants that didn't get the interview --because of the color of his skin, it creates animosity and yes, perpetuates stigmas, stereotypes and racism. Sad but true.

Not all white people are rich, and not all black people are poor and we must get away from programs that benefit people based on their ethnicity or sex. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; when those affected were not around for the civil rights movement, they don't understand. Most of the 'privileged white' guys I fly with got their airline job by way of the military, either trained or financed through the GI Bill. Like me (I started with nothing, high school dropout, single parent household, put myself through college, etc.) most did not come from wealth or privilege, they don't have access to the programs offered to minorities. Because they couldn't check the minority/female block. It wasn't long ago that, due to lawsuits, Major airlines went on a minority hiring spree and many highly qualified white males with exponentially more experience weren't hired. I was personally affected by this on two separate occasions. In one case, a minority female was sharing her recent experience obtaining her ratings. We all exchanged contact info. Turns out she was hired, along with another female and two minority males while most others, military, corporate and regional got the TBNT letter. As you can understand, not a good feeling. It took years, but I finally got on with a major and time heals all wounds. I felt resentment, not towards the individuals, but the unfairness of institutionalized discrimination. Although it allowed me a taste of what victims of discrimination have experienced, to most, it only creates anger and resentment. No one can argue with equal opportunity.

To the hard-working minorities and women that succeed, unfortunately, these outdated programs ensure they are unfairly labelled as quotas. I believe the time has come for all of us to compete on a level playing field. Minorities and women don't need programs that lower the bar for them, they are every bit as qualified and capable as their white male counterparts to compete on a level playing field.

Airbum
10-27-2017, 09:59 AM
While definitely better and there are more opportunities to say that we are all equal and have the same opportunity is not true. I see it daily when volunteering at my kids school how children are treated differently based initially on color but on then on economic status and involvement of parents.

If I have a hoodie on (yes I do wear them because they are very functional as well as listen to rap music), then I generally am received much differently. I carry myself the same in all situations. That is the difference. I have to "prove or validate" that I belong in the neighborhood I live whereas generally, from what I see, someone who doesn't look like me is given the benefit of the doubt initially. By chance were your ancestors White?

Not trying to argue, just promoting discussion as it needs to be talked about logically by educated individuals and not argued about from soap boxes.


The world will never achieve total equality. To provide equal opportunity is a wonderful goal but how do we do that? I will venture the opinion that in the western world equality of opportunity has never been closer to a reality.

I'll add also that of course you where treated differently based on how you where dressed. These are things that i taught my children. If my daughter wants to be respected she should dress respectful. Its her right to do otherwise but all rights come with consequences. If my son wants a job taking car of children then face tattoos most likely should be avoided. If i want to be taken seriously there are clothes i wouldn't wear.

Most of those actions can be negated by getting to personally know them. Like you stated after people find out more about you, but a stranger doesn't have that benefit.

METO Guido
10-27-2017, 10:43 AM
Just don't see a pattern as alleged. Not racism, which is as much personal as it is anything else.

Lived in an all white southern town where it was common knowledge a Klansman owned the leather goods & shoe repair business. I was bussed to the county's one middle school. It was located in the adjacent smaller town, all black. Riding around on my bike with a couple friends one day, they jumped off theirs suddenly and shoved two white haired black men from behind into a canal where they'd been sitting on a low bridge rail, fishing. Tackle boxes and all, right to the bottom. One of them got ID'd by a witness and was caught. Guilty by association, I got sent to be counselled by a black woman, an educator from the HS, along with some other things. Can't say it changed the direction of my life but I wasn't the same after. That was 45 years ago.

Three years ago this Thanksgiving, I came within a whisker of pulling the trigger on a black assailant who attempted to steal my car at a gas station with my wife in the passenger seat. He might still be alive because he wasn't white.

KSwift76
10-27-2017, 11:06 AM
I agree, dialogue is essential if we are to arrive at consensus and walk in others' shoes. But please realize that goes both ways. Unfortunately, all perspectives/voices are not always heard equally, especially in today's hyper sensitized environment. At the risk of being politically incorrect and labelled a racist, allow me to forward a different perspective.

Quote: "...to say that we are all equal and have the same opportunity is not true."

True, but we disagree on which group gets institutionally discriminated against in today's airline industry. Allow me to explain. As you say, things are better for African Americans, much better. The fact you are a successful airline pilot, destined to create wealth and pass that down to your children, put them through college, is evidence of that. Tragically, that could not have happened in past generations. But that was then. Fast forward to today's America where well-intentioned efforts have been made by our Government (Affirmative Action, Civil Rights Bill, EEOC, Congressional Black Caucus.) and agencies such as OBAP, NAACP, Black College Fund, etc., have provided opportunities unthinkable to your ancestors. Those programs are not available to others, many of which also lack the financial means to become airline pilots.

In our industry, due to a variety of reasons not necessarily financial, women and minorities are under-represented. Well intentioned efforts are made to bolster their numbers, such as preferential hiring, scholarships (99s, Women in Aviation, etc.). Inevitably, preferential hiring of one group must come at the expense of another. That group will invariably feel cheated and discriminated against. As much as it may seem fair to compensate for discriminatory ideologies and programs of the past, in the eyes of today's young white male applicants that didn't get the interview --because of the color of his skin, it creates animosity and yes, perpetuates stigmas, stereotypes and racism. Sad but true.

Not all white people are rich, and not all black people are poor and we must get away from programs that benefit people based on their ethnicity or sex. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; when those affected were not around for the civil rights movement, they don't understand. Most of the 'privileged white' guys I fly with got their airline job by way of the military, either trained or financed through the GI Bill. Like me (I started with nothing, high school dropout, single parent household, put myself through college, etc.) most did not come from wealth or privilege, they don't have access to the programs offered to minorities. Because they couldn't check the minority/female block. It wasn't long ago that, due to lawsuits, Major airlines went on a minority hiring spree and many highly qualified white males with exponentially more experience weren't hired. I was personally affected by this on two separate occasions. In one case, a minority female was sharing her recent experience obtaining her ratings. We all exchanged contact info. Turns out she was hired, along with another female and two minority males while most others, military, corporate and regional got the TBNT letter. As you can understand, not a good feeling. It took years, but I finally got on with a major and time heals all wounds. I felt resentment, not towards the individuals, but the unfairness of institutionalized discrimination. Although it allowed me a taste of what victims of discrimination have experienced, to most, it only creates anger and resentment. No one can argue with equal opportunity.

To the hard-working minorities and women that succeed, unfortunately, these outdated programs ensure they are unfairly labelled as quotas. I believe the time has come for all of us to compete on a level playing field. Minorities and women don't need programs that lower the bar for them, they are every bit as qualified and capable as their white male counterparts to compete on a level playing field.


I don't at all believe you sound racist. Just a little naive about what it is really like to be a minority in the country and this business. I've had the misfortune of being furloughed several times from commuters, charter companies and flight schools as I navigated the early 2000's. That being said, I've been in new hire classes several times and I imagine I've had approximately 50- 60 new hire classmates. Out of all of them, 4 were Black including myself, and 4 were female. Regarding experience and ability, of those 50-60, 4 did not make it through training and were let go. 3 were White males and 1 was a White female. I understand that due to there having been a higher number of white males, chances are greater that there would be more that don't make it. However, the idea that unqualified Black pilots are given jobs just because they are Black and that they are greatly under qualified is not something I can agree with. I would argue that there are far more under qualified white candidates even on a percentage basis i.e. interns, friends of pilots, sons of D.O's etc...(I'm fairly certain that there are not a lot of black pilots hired as sons of D.O.'s, Chief Pilots, etc. because there are very few minority pilots that hold those positions)

I have a buddy who told me I'm lucky to be black in America because I have all of the advantages ( he was talking about aviation hiring). I asked him would he honestly want to trade with me, because I am Black all the time, not just when putting it on an application for a job. He still has not answered me.

That same buddy told me he grew up poor and his dad struggled his whole life and that he had no advantage of being the son of an airline pilot. I told him, I'm sorry and feel bad for you, but the difference is, your father had the opportunity to do it and maybe help put you ahead he just did not achieve it. It was not even an option for my father. That is the difference.

I'm not here to share a woe is me story because I've been very lucky to have been born to parents that gave me opportunities, exposed me to the world, helped guide me along the way, etc.... I just know I've been lucky and this country is generally not very open to giving people of color the benefit of the doubt. One more quick story. My mother was a guidance counselor at a DoDDs school (If you are military you know the makeup of DoDDs schools is a cross section of the USA). She was in a honors classroom with the other guidance counselor(an older white lady) handing out applications for college scholarships. My mother told me she watched the counselor hand out applications to every white child and none of the black children except my older brother. Afterwards, my mother asked her why she had skipped this child and that child etc... and the lady responded "...they are not college material." If this woman did this to one classroom of honors kids in one year, imagine how many other worthy, capable students may have missed out on a quality educational opportunity over the course of this lady's career. These are the issues, while subtle, that are institutional and why I still say things are better (Heck, I'm a major airline Captain), but "we ain't there yet and we've got a ways to go!"

I can count on all fingers and toes the amount of Black pilots I've flown with in my 14,000 hours and I'll bet you can too. There just aren't that many of us despite what a lot of white pilots think is an unfair hiring advantage that allows any Black person who has ever sat on an airplane to be a major airline Captain.


Cheers and good luck to us all.

KSwift76
10-27-2017, 11:18 AM
The world will never achieve total equality. To provide equal opportunity is a wonderful goal but how do we do that? I will venture the opinion that in the western world equality of opportunity has never been closer to a reality.

I'll add also that of course you where treated differently based on how you where dressed. These are things that i taught my children. If my daughter wants to be respected she should dress respectful. Its her right to do otherwise but all rights come with consequences. If my son wants a job taking car of children then face tattoos most likely should be avoided. If i want to be taken seriously there are clothes i wouldn't wear.

Most of those actions can be negated by getting to personally know them. Like you stated after people find out more about you, but a stranger doesn't have that benefit.


I was hanging artwork at an elementary school with my wife and had on a hoodie with my university on it with a pair of jeans. Hardly face tattoos and I understand that you were trying to make a point. That same year I took a stuffed animal to "work" and took pictures all over the world and in the flight deck and my son put them up a posterboard about his dad's job... and Wow. The next time I wore a hoodie to volunteer in school there was a much different reception from office staff and teachers passing by when they realized I was the pilot on the posterboard.

I'm just saying...

dawgdriver
10-27-2017, 01:01 PM
"the idea that unqualified Black pilots are given jobs just because they are Black and that they are greatly under qualified is not something I can agree with"

Never said anyone hired was unqualified. The individual in question met the minimum standards per the FARs to legally occupy the right seat, which before the Colgan crash was 250 hours. She had no 135 time, no ATP, no crew or command experience but was hired, while more experienced/qualified pilots with ATPs, TPIC in 121 regionals, military, corporate, etc. were not, all because their gender/ethnicity did not fill the ethnic/gender requirement.

There is no dispute over the fact that lawsuits have been filed and, as a result, airlines have scrambled to hire minorities in greater numbers. Consider the following 1988 EEOC motion against UAL:

Eeoc Hits United Hiring Plan - tribunedigital-chicagotribune (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minorities)

In a motion filed with Senior U.S. District Court Judge Hubert F. Will, the EEOC charged that United failed to hire minority and female pilots at twice the percentage of qualified applicants, as it had agreed to do in 1976.

The EEOC is asking for job offers, back pay and retroactive seniority for those not hired, said the spokesman. In addition, it wants sanctions to force the airline to comply with the decree in the future.

As you can see, these are federal court-mandates requiring twice the number candidates of a certain gender/ethnicity be hired. Anyone believing that all things were equal, and that no consideration or preference was accorded to the group(s) who's numbers they were desperately seeking to bolster, is simply ignoring the facts.

Definition of discrimination: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Airbum
10-27-2017, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=KSwift76;2455628]I was hanging artwork at an elementary school with my wife and had on a hoodie with my university on it with a pair of jeans. Hardly face tattoos and I understand that you were trying to make a point. That same year I took a stuffed animal to "work" and took pictures all over the world and in the flight deck and my son put them up a posterboard about his dad's job... and Wow. The next time I wore a hoodie to volunteer in school there was a much different reception from office staff and teachers passing by when they realized I was the pilot on the posterboard.

I'm just saying...[/QUOTE

You are right a university coat is wildly different then a face tattoo. I also am often treated very differently after people find out what I have done and what I do currently.

However, the history of my family does not lend itself to any racism and I have grown up in the majority. Without a doubt my environment affected
how I see things.

C130driver
10-27-2017, 03:04 PM
Based on some of the garbage I've heard spewed on the flight deck, I don't think it's UNREASONABLE to say that a fair number of pilots are bigots or at the very least, lower case "r" racist.

From my observations, many seem to willingly turn a blind eye/deaf ear to the struggles faced by other fellow Americans. To quote the great Ben Folds, "it ain't easy being male, middle class and white".

Signed,
A flight deck liberal.

Hey man, I don’t think anyone is denying that people struggle or that racism exists in the pilot profession. What many, including myself are against, is the notion that somehow there is deep rooted, institutionalized racism amongst pilots just because the demographic tends to be white/male. Racism exists everywhere, in every country in the world. I fact, I’d say America is one of the most tolerant countries in the world, but you wouldn’t think that looking at the “news.”

The charge of racism is thrown around way too loosely these days. It is like the boy who cried wolf and undermines those who actually have legitimate claims of discriminatory behavior against them.

Finally, the airlines are very up front about participating in <insert minority> pride/history month. You would think that any question about institutionalized bigotry in the airline industry would be debunked but let’s face it, you can’t win against some people.

atpcliff
10-27-2017, 04:42 PM
Wait a minute, that's from the so-called "stories" that people are telling. There is no proof it was racism that got them kicked off the plane! How is AA concluding that there were race issues, based solely on a complaint from a passenger? I agree with Lemons, it's not the same thing. No factual data or proof that AA employees are systematically being racist and show bias against black people.

I hear what you are saying. AA does not agree with you, which is why they are taking action to improve AA for all their customers.

Dolphinflyer
10-27-2017, 04:48 PM
It is amazing to see how teachers or any White people react much differently to me when it comes out in conversation that I am an airline pilot. If I have a hoodie on (yes I do wear them because they are very functional as well as listen to rap music), then I generally am received much differently. I carry myself the same in all situations.

And here is the problem. Do you really think you are the only one treated differently because you are an African American?

I've got a news flash for you. While I understand some issues you may deal with, others are the same chit white guys dealt with their entire lives also. Throughout my life since the early teens into my now 50's, I've seen all colors of all social economic backgrounds treated differently because of another party's perception. As a young male, I was treated differently than I am as a old white male today. Why was that? Because I looked like a group that is generally a f-ing problem child, a young male of any mammal species. I personally don't trust any group of them walking down a sidewalk.
Once, I quickly double parked for a quick grab at my inner city apartment adjacent to my college. 30 seconds later the city cop is writing a ticket. Now even knowing this cop's very bad rep in the area, I was non-confrontational, hands visible, safe distance away and a respectful attitude of politely asking what was wrong? (white,dumb suburban kid). I thought I was special (respectful ROTC student) dealing with a known psycho. What I got was a blistering set of commands and a right hand unsnapping his 357 revolver (late 80's). Yes, we dealt with Jackwagon's too.

That also hasn't changed throughout my life, especially living in an wealthy area. I've lost track of the number of times I've been treated like a leper by $15 hour clerks working at fashionable place "XYZ" because I may have driven up in the 3 kids beater minivan while dressed like a FL Cracker after doing outside work all day in July while my W2 was 6 figures. It happens to us too.

The latest was on Worth Avenue in Palm Beach long ago (think Beverly Hills Rodeo Drive). Wife and I were dressed "Costco Chic" with my cheap IronMan watch. One lunch restaurant literally said snobbily, "The kitchen is closed" as they let another party in after us. Another set of shops slammed their doors 10 minutes before closing right as we walked up to the entrance without acknowledging us. Chit happens based on perceptions dude. You surely sound like you deal with it more than I do, but a lot of it is what many people of all colors deal with.

My blonde, blue eyed son also dealt with people treating others in a discriminatory fashion. He was a busboy recently, and his fellow busboys all tried to avoid working a seated party of African Americans. Every one of the other busboys were Haitian.

My point? Unfortunately all races and nationalities make discriminatory judgements, and again, I understand the BS you may deal with at times. Most (forget that, ALL) African American pilots I've ever met slugged it out in one form or another to make it through this BS we call a career and were very well qualified.

Castle Bravo
10-28-2017, 05:51 AM
In America, if you look for racism, you can find it. If you look for success, you can find it.

Society will always have flaws; America is better than most. We have a system of laws that prohibits and/or punishes systemic, institutional racism <insert ism of choice>. However, people have been biased one way or another for 5,000 years, and will be for 5,000 more.

METO Guido
10-28-2017, 06:36 AM
I hear what you are saying. AA does not agree with you, which is why they are taking action to improve AA for all their customers.
Well that is freaking fantastic. Problem solved.

ItnStln
10-28-2017, 07:05 AM
Well that is freaking fantastic. Problem solved.I wonder how much money AA is paying to solve the problem.

METO Guido
10-28-2017, 07:50 AM
I wonder how much money AA is paying to solve the problem.
However much, will accomplish little because there is no substitute for meaningful, clear-eyed leadership when grabbing horns of an issue this endemic to our culture. The cabin of an airliner is no place to resolve the world's conflicts. There is a minimum standard of behavior which need be observed, no matter how important any individual thinks they are. Airlines are ignoring much when spinning the effort to shove that many people off & on a 150+ seat pressure vessel within 30 minutes.

Guess how many women presidents the NAACP has had in its 108 year history?

https://s1.postimg.org/77xrzhpban/American_Way_Magazine_Cover.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

SpeedyVagabond
10-28-2017, 07:59 AM
I wonder how much money AA is paying to solve the problem.
Lol. Right? This whole discussion should be about whether or not there is in fact racism at AA and whether or not that influenced the captain's decision. Personally, I find it disgusting that Mrs. Mallory can toss out a charge of "white male aggression" so casually. To myself and every other reasonable person on the planet, that in itself is racism in the bright light of day for all to see.

Slaphappy
10-28-2017, 08:44 AM
Lol. Right? This whole discussion should be about whether or not there is in fact racism at AA and whether or not that influenced the captain's decision. Personally, I find it disgusting that Mrs. Mallory can toss out a charge of "white male aggression" so casually. To myself and every other reasonable person on the planet, that in itself is racism in the bright light of day for all to see.

You must not have seen whats been going on the past 2-3 years. This sort of thing is becoming norm.

ItnStln
10-28-2017, 09:03 AM
However much, will accomplish little because there is no substitute for meaningful, clear-eyed leadership when grabbing horns of an issue this endemic to our culture. The cabin of an airliner is no place to resolve the world's conflicts. There is a minimum standard of behavior which need be observed, no matter how important any individual thinks they are. Airlines are ignoring much when spinning the effort to shove that many people off & on a 150+ seat pressure vessel within 30 minutes.

Guess how many women presidents the NAACP has had in its 108 year history?

https://s1.postimg.org/77xrzhpban/American_Way_Magazine_Cover.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Well said!

ItnStln
10-28-2017, 09:06 AM
Lol. Right? This whole discussion should be about whether or not there is in fact racism at AA and whether or not that influenced the captain's decision. Personally, I find it disgusting that Mrs. Mallory can toss out a charge of "white male aggression" so casually. To myself and every other reasonable person on the planet, that in itself is racism in the bright light of day for all to see.

Imagine if the word "white" in "white male aggression" was substituted for another race and the drama that would have caused.

atpcliff
10-28-2017, 10:56 AM
Imagine if the word "white" in "white male aggression" was substituted for another race and the drama that would have caused.

It has happened multiple times in America's past, and it happens frequently in today's America.

atpcliff
10-28-2017, 10:58 AM
However much, will accomplish little because there is no substitute for meaningful, clear-eyed leadership when grabbing horns of an issue this endemic to our culture. The cabin of an airliner is no place to resolve the world's conflicts. There is a minimum standard of behavior which need be observed, no matter how important any individual thinks they are. Airlines are ignoring much when spinning the effort to shove that many people off & on a 150+ seat pressure vessel within 30 minutes.

Guess how many women presidents the NAACP has had in its 108 year history?

https://s1.postimg.org/77xrzhpban/American_Way_Magazine_Cover.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This is also part of the problem. Many Americans see women as inferior. So, when you're Black AND Female it is even harder...

METO Guido
10-28-2017, 11:56 AM
This is also part of the problem. Many Americans see women as inferior. So, when you're Black AND Female it is even harder...
I did not like school, had trouble with authority. Sent to last chance counselling, as mentioned. She was tough but listened. Conduct & manners, drew a hard line. And when I improved in class later, earned me a hug. Something I was not used to. Had several black teachers in a primarily non air-conditioned public school system. For whatever reason, they seemed to understand me better. Still don't care to be in class or board an airliner. But I learned how to not to act up for both.

C130driver
10-28-2017, 12:11 PM
This is also part of the problem. Many Americans see women as inferior. So, when you're Black AND Female it is even harder...

Or maybe those that claim it is somehow harder for them being female and/or black constantly see themselves as a victim instead of realizing that there is no institutionalized system in America that can prevent them from succeeding. Instead they use buzz words such as privilege, “white male” aggression, racism and in effect: cause people to tune them out. No one with any degree of intellect can take this victim mentality seriously anymore.

Racism and sexism are not unique to America, they are part of the human condition. Despite that, like I said before, America is one of the most tolerant societies in the world. This constant barrage of accusing Americans of being racist/sexist/bigoted is intellectually dishonest and only further divides us.

tyler durden
10-28-2017, 12:47 PM
Or maybe those that claim it is somehow harder for them being female and/or black constantly see themselves as a victim instead of realizing that there is no institutionalized system in America that can prevent them from succeeding. Instead they use buzz words such as privilege, “white male” aggression, racism and in effect: cause people to tune them out. No one with any degree of intellect can take this victim mentality seriously anymore.

Racism and sexism are not unique to America, they are part of the human condition. Despite that, like I said before, America is one of the most tolerant societies in the world. This constant barrage of accusing Americans of being racist/sexist/bigoted is intellectually dishonest and only further divides us.

^^^THIS^^^

Well said.

detpilot
10-28-2017, 01:08 PM
The fact that other countries are worse doesn't excuse that we still have a long way to go here. Maybe you should do a little reading on "redlining" before announcing proudly that there "is no white privilege." http://www.biculturalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/concise_history_ampersand.jpg

Peacock
10-28-2017, 01:23 PM
The fact that other countries are worse doesn't excuse that we still have a long way to go here. Maybe you should do a little reading on "redlining" before announcing proudly that there "is no white privilege." http://www.biculturalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/concise_history_ampersand.jpg
Man you should show that to every former slave owner in the U.S.

Fortunately I never owned any slaves.

KSwift76
10-28-2017, 02:06 PM
The fact that other countries are worse doesn't excuse that we still have a long way to go here. Maybe you should do a little reading on "redlining" before announcing proudly that there "is no white privilege." http://www.biculturalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/concise_history_ampersand.jpg

The fact that a large number of White males insist that there is no such thing as white privelege is part of the privelege. Ones unwillingness to even accept that there is a possibility that a certain demographic may have it a little tougher because historically we/they have never owned anything, been the boss, or have been without a doubt considered as second class citizens as recently as 40 years ago spews that privelege that is spoken of.

For the record, I had it better than a lot. Grew up with two college educated parents but who had to sit in the "colored" section of the movie theater while in college in Virginia in the 60's. These are my parents... Not grandparents or great grandparents. So yeah, there is white privelege... It exists whether alit of you choose to believe it or not.

Again, if you choose to refuse to believe it exists, perhaps you are benefiting from it even unknowingly.

These topics are certainly worth discussing.

Cheers

detpilot
10-28-2017, 03:04 PM
Man you should show that to every former slave owner in the U.S.

Fortunately I never owned any slaves.I'm glad you never owned any slaves. That has nothing to do with my post, however.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

ceelo
10-28-2017, 03:34 PM
However much, will accomplish little because there is no substitute for meaningful, clear-eyed leadership when grabbing horns of an issue this endemic to our culture. The cabin of an airliner is no place to resolve the world's conflicts. There is a minimum standard of behavior which need be observed, no matter how important any individual thinks they are. Airlines are ignoring much when spinning the effort to shove that many people off & on a 150+ seat pressure vessel within 30 minutes.

Guess how many women presidents the NAACP has had in its 108 year history?

https://s1.postimg.org/77xrzhpban/American_Way_Magazine_Cover.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

i love sonequa martin green!!

casual observer
10-28-2017, 03:37 PM
The fact that a large number of White males insist that there is no such thing as white privelege is part of the privelege. Ones unwillingness to even accept that there is a possibility that a certain demographic may have it a little tougher because historically we/they have never owned anything, been the boss, or have been without a doubt considered as second class citizens as recently as 40 years ago spews that privelege that is spoken of.

For the record, I had it better than a lot. Grew up with two college educated parents but who had to sit in the "colored" section of the movie theater while in college in Virginia in the 60's. These are my parents... Not grandparents or great grandparents. So yeah, there is white privelege... It exists whether alit of you choose to believe it or not.

Again, if you choose to refuse to believe it exists, perhaps you are benefiting from it even unknowingly.

These topics are certainly worth discussing.

Cheers

The idea of white privilege is as offensive to me as a white guy as the claim that a black pilot only got her job because of affirmative action would be to her.

The other problem with white privilege is that it's literally seeing the world in black and white.

Who's more privileged: President Obama's daughters or my anonymous white son? He's probably not going to Harvard.

Time to give up the perpetual grievances. You and I have much more in common with each other than you have with your ancestors or I have with mine.

(BTW, when we are talking about my ancestors - think less Scarlett O'Hara and Rhet Butler and more poor dirty anonomous Irish with no
shoes.)

The idea of white privilege is offensive and bigoted. Think about it.

ceelo
10-28-2017, 03:48 PM
Based on some of the garbage I've heard spewed on the flight deck, I don't think it's UNREASONABLE to say that a fair number of pilots are bigots or at the very least, lower case "r" racist.

From my observations, many seem to willingly turn a blind eye/deaf ear to the struggles faced by other fellow Americans. To quote the great Ben Folds, "it ain't easy being male, middle class and white".

Signed,
A flight deck liberal.

exactly. why are so many people pretending like racism isn't an issue? now whether AA is actually racist or not is another debate, but pretending like there is no racism is foolish.

Slaphappy
10-28-2017, 03:54 PM
The fact that other countries are worse doesn't excuse that we still have a long way to go here. Maybe you should do a little reading on "redlining" before announcing proudly that there "is no white privilege." http://www.biculturalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/concise_history_ampersand.jpg

That comic is just plain silly, a majority of the white population in this country have no direct lineage to slave owners, most are descendants from immigrants in the last 100-150 years. None of that stuff is relevant to today at all, what happened 60 years ago has no relevance to the success of someone today. So, no there is no such thing as white privilege and I like what was said before about it, that it's nothing more than an excuse.

The fact that a large number of White males insist that there is no such thing as white privelege is part of the privelege. Ones unwillingness to even accept that there is a possibility that a certain demographic may have it a little tougher because historically we/they have never owned anything, been the boss, or have been without a doubt considered as second class citizens as recently as 40 years ago spews that privelege that is spoken of.

First of all privilege is spelled with two "I"s. Second, there isn't anyone that is alive today in the united states that has it bad because of their race. You can say that's not true all day long but in the eye's of the law we are all the same and almost any form of discrimination is now illegal and has been for decades. If anyone has "privilege" its the people that can use their race as a benefit on job applications and school admissions.

casual observer
10-28-2017, 04:24 PM
exactly. why are so many people pretending like racism isn't an issue? now whether AA is actually racist or not is another debate, but pretending like there is no racism is foolish.

Yes. Racism is a thing. It's a big club that you smugly swing around to satiate your own bigotry with impunity.

KSwift76
10-28-2017, 04:29 PM
The idea of white privilege is as offensive to me as a white guy as the claim that a black pilot only got her job because of affirmative action would be to her.

The other problem with white privilege is that it's literally seeing the world in black and white.

Who's more privileged: President Obama's daughters or my anonymous white son? He's probably not going to Harvard.

Time to give up the perpetual grievances. You and I have much more in common with each other than you have with your ancestors or I have with mine.

(BTW, when we are talking about my ancestors - think less Scarlett O'Hara and Rhet Butler and more poor dirty anonomous Irish with no
shoes.)

The idea of white privilege is offensive and bigoted. Think about it.

Not sure how to quote individual paragraphs but your comparison to President Obama's daughters and your kids is not exactly apples to apples. While obviously tongue in cheek, that you would even consider that as an example further illustrates you as a regular white(I assume) citizen would create a comparison with the offspring of the President of the United States. If you would consider (even jokingly) that comparison how must you view the comparison between your offspring and mine.

I agree, we may have more in common than not (values, work habits, upbringing etc...), but the difference is when your kids walk in the door, more often than not they will be given the benefit of the doubt whereas my 15 yr. old honor student son has to first prove he is not a thug. As an example, the prison system is disproportionately made up of more minorities than whites. Does this seem like a fair and equal system. If everything was fair and equal, shouldn't it look a little more like the make-up of our society? Shouldn't airline pilot numbers? Is the reason that it is not a function of the fact folks that look like me may just have to overcome not just normal obstacles but alot of unspoken ones that the majority may have knowingly or otherwise put into place to keep me out. Again, next time you are in the crew room take a look around and see how few minorities there really are.

We(Black folks) started 400 years behind you. Do you honestly think that with the stroke of the pen hundreds of years of bigotry, oppression and the deck being stacked in the favor of the majority goes away and it is equal for everyone? I can assure you, it is not.

I have had a great life provided me from parents who were educated, involved and selfless...and I still have to qualify myself and get looks of shock, disbelief and WTF when it comes out what I do for a living. That is my reality.

My daughter's friend's Mom asked me what I do for a living and you could almost tell she wouldn't have believed me had my daughter not been posting photos from our trip to Europe and our family riding in business class. While she didn't say it, I'm almost certain she was wondering how I managed to achieve what I had while neither she nor her husband had a degree and we're working hourly jobs and trying to make ends meet(nothing wrong with it, I made poverty wages a lot of my career).

Another example one of the males in the crew digging my pool was White. The others were Hispanic. He carried himself with an heir of superiority compared to the others and even tried it with me when I asked him to pick up trash he'd left after lunch. It was as if he thought he was better than them or me. What would give him this feeling other than his privelege?

It's not something tangible...it does exist and I know it when I see it or feel it.

Again, talking about it will help, denying someone's very real experience does not.

My thoughts and experiences. Nothing in this rant is meant to look down upon anyone. I am where I am in life due to having a great head start from a great family. Even with that I imagine I get looked at as perhaps I do not belong. I couldn't imagine doing it on my own, especially as a minority.

Cheers

casual observer
10-28-2017, 04:38 PM
The fact that other countries are worse doesn't excuse that we still have a long way to go here. Maybe you should do a little reading on "redlining" before announcing proudly that there "is no white privilege." http://www.biculturalmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/concise_history_ampersand.jpg

Look at how offensive this cartoon is. It portrays white people as literally using another human being as a step stool and then offering no assistance or empathy while he lazily lounges on top. Is that how you see white people? Do you feel comfortable generalizing people based on the color of their skin?

Maybe you think only white people can be racist. You should probably spend some time thinking about why you feel comfortable passing along bigoted stereotypes of people based on how they look.

KSwift76
10-28-2017, 04:50 PM
That comic is just plain silly, a majority of the white population in this country have no direct lineage to slave owners, most are descendants from immigrants in the last 100-150 years. None of that stuff is relevant to today at all, what happened 60 years ago has no relevance to the success of someone today. So, no there is no such thing as white privilege and I like what was said before about it, that it's nothing more than an excuse.



First of all privilege is spelled with two "I"s. Second, there isn't anyone that is alive today in the united states that has it bad because of their race. You can say that's not true all day long but in the eye's of the law we are all the same and almost any form of discrimination is now illegal and has been for decades. If anyone has "privilege" its the people that can use their race as a benefit on job applications and school admissions.


Forgive my spelling errors as I'm typing on a phone while watching football. You are correct, in the eyes of the law there is no more discrimination. Let's take Augusta National Golf Club for example. Wasn't it just a few years ago that they started letting women and minorities in. Granted, that may be a private club, but you get what I'm saying. There can always be another obstacle placed that one has to get over.

I guess the ultimate question is would you trade with me? I suspect you would not.

I think I'm done. There is no convincing someone who is not willing to even consider another's reality.

Good luck, I appreciate your civility as I know it is tough in this country being a White male. 🙄

Cheers

casual observer
10-28-2017, 04:50 PM
Not sure how to quote individual paragraphs but your comparison to President Obama's daughters and your kids is not exactly apples to apples. While obviously tongue in cheek, that you would even consider that as an example further illustrates you as a regular white(I assume) citizen would create a comparison with the offspring of the President of the United States. If you would consider (even jokingly) that comparison how must you view the comparison between your offspring and mine.

I agree, we may have more in common than not (values, work habits, upbringing etc...), but the difference is when your kids walk in the door, more often than not they will be given the benefit of the doubt whereas my 15 yr. old honor student son has to first prove he is not a thug. As an example, the prison system is disproportionately made up of more minorities than whites. Does this seem like a fair and equal system. If everything was fair and equal, shouldn't it look a little more like the make-up of our society? Shouldn't airline pilot numbers? Is the reason that it is not a function of the fact folks that look like me may just have to overcome not just normal obstacles but alot of unspoken ones that the majority may have knowingly or otherwise put into place to keep me out. Again, next time you are in the crew room take a look around and see how few minorities there really are.

We(Black folks) started 400 years behind you. Do you honestly think that with the stroke of the pen hundreds of years of bigotry, oppression and the deck being stacked in the favor of the majority goes away and it is equal for everyone? I can assure you, it is not.

I have had a great life provided me from parents who were educated, involved and selfless...and I still have to qualify myself and get looks of shock, disbelief and WTF when it comes out what I do for a living. That is my reality.

My daughter's friend's Mom asked me what I do for a living and you could almost tell she wouldn't have believed me had my daughter not been posting photos from our trip to Europe and our family riding in business class. While she didn't say it, I'm almost certain she was wondering how I managed to achieve what I had while neither she nor her husband had a degree and we're working hourly jobs and trying to make ends meet(nothing wrong with it, I made poverty wages a lot of my career).

Another example one of the males in the crew digging my pool was White. The others were Hispanic. He carried himself with an heir of superiority compared to the others and even tried it with me when I asked him to pick up trash he'd left after lunch. It was as if he thought he was better than them or me. What would give him this feeling other than his privelege?

It's not something tangible...it does exist and I know it when I see it or feel it.

Again, talking about it will help, denying someone's very real experience does not.

My thoughts and experiences. Nothing in this rant is meant to look down upon anyone. I am where I am in life due to having a great head start from a great family. Even with that I imagine I get looked at as perhaps I do not belong. I couldn't imagine doing it on my own, especially as a minority.

Cheers

Congratulations on a great life. You earned it. I listen to you and respect you.

I throw in this one caveat. I'm a white guy, but I encounter people around me acting like a-holes all the time (I'm sure other people think that of me quite often as well). A potential difference is, that I never think they are acting like a-holes towards me because of the color of my skin.

So, what I'm suggesting, is a part of the issue is not that the a-holes your encountering are racist - they're just a-holes. The racial component is something you're predisposed to believe based on our common history and ongoing partisan narratives in media.

casual observer
10-28-2017, 05:00 PM
Forgive my spelling errors as I'm typing on a phone while watching football. You are correct, in the eyes of the law there is no more discrimination. Let's take Augusta National Golf Club for example. Wasn't it just a few years ago that they started letting women and minorities in. Granted, that may be a private club, but you get what I'm saying. There can always be another obstacle placed that one has to get over.

I guess the ultimate question is would you trade with me? I suspect you would not.

I think I'm done. There is no convincing someone who is not willing to even consider another's reality.

Good luck, I appreciate your civility as I know it is tough in this country being a White male. 🙄

Cheers

I'm short and not particularly good looking. Assuming you are taller than me and better looking, I would trade.

KSwift76
10-28-2017, 05:09 PM
Congratulations on a great life. You earned it. I listen to you and respect you.

I throw in this one caveat. I'm a white guy, but I encounter people around me acting like a-holes all the time (I'm sure other people think that of me quite often as well). A potential difference is, that I never think they are acting like a-holes towards me because of the color of my skin.

So, what I'm suggesting, is a part of the issue is not that the a-holes your encountering are racist - they're just a-holes. The racial component is something you're predisposed to believe based on our common history and ongoing partisan narratives in media.

I said I was done but feel compelled to respond. I did not consider that people I assume are racist are just a holes. Heck if they are racist they definitely are a holes. I think we all have a little of it in us whether it be a desire to be around those that are like us or preconceived notions etc... I just have experienced the realities of a system that really wasn't originally designed to include folks that look like me. Thanks for your candor!

By the way, I'm tallish but not particularly good looking so don't know about that trade. 😁

Cheers

casual observer
10-28-2017, 06:17 PM
I said I was done but feel compelled to respond. I did not consider that people I assume are racist are just a holes. Heck if they are racist they definitely are a holes. I think we all have a little of it in us whether it be a desire to be around those that are like us or preconceived notions etc... I just have experienced the realities of a system that really wasn't originally designed to include folks that look like me. Thanks for your candor!

By the way, I'm tallish but not particularly good looking so don't know about that trade. 😁

Cheers

I'll be your wingman and we'll both tear it up. Peace.

Peacock
10-28-2017, 06:25 PM
I'm glad you never owned any slaves. That has nothing to do with my post, however.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

It has everything to do with your post. I bear zero responsibility for slavery. I bear zero responsibility for anyone's position in life but my own. Implying that white people owe something to blacks because some people with white skin owned slaves 150 years ago is pretty.... racist

detpilot
10-28-2017, 07:55 PM
It has everything to do with your post. I bear zero responsibility for slavery. I bear zero responsibility for anyone's position in life but my own. Implying that white people owe something to blacks because some people with white skin owned slaves 150 years ago is pretty.... racistI see the problem.... You're taking this as a personal attack on you. That's not my intent, so relax. But there ARE societal issues, caused by racial discrimination and dating back to slavery that still impact people's lives today. With regard to ability to build wealth (which primarily comes from home ownership for the middle class), and pass that wealth down through generations, black people ARE at a disadvantage as a whole, compared to whites in America. That's not my opinion, it's fact... backed up by plenty of proof and data (A lot of which was referenced in this thread). Sure, you can find individual stories of individual people who break that mold, but as a society this is actually an issue. Sorry, but I'm not sorry that I struck a nerve.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Slaphappy
10-28-2017, 08:07 PM
I see the problem.... You're taking this as a personal attack on you. That's not my intent, so relax. But there ARE societal issues, caused by racial discrimination and dating back to slavery that still impact people's lives today. With regard to ability to build wealth (which primarily comes from home ownership for the middle class), and pass that wealth down through generations, black people ARE at a disadvantage as a whole, compared to whites in America. That's not my opinion, it's fact... backed up by plenty of proof and data (A lot of which was referenced in this thread). Sure, you can find individual stories of individual people who break that mold, but as a society this is actually an issue. Sorry, but I'm not sorry that I struck a nerve.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I'm sorry but that's just not true anymore. There is nothing in this country now that is preventing anyone from building wealth. Failure of that is because of personal choices.

dawgdriver
10-28-2017, 09:08 PM
There is no convincing someone who is not willing to even consider another's reality.

Good luck, I appreciate your civility as I know it is tough in this country being a White male. ��

Cheers

I believe that goes both ways. To say that the era we live in does not include an unprecedented effort for 'the privileged white class' to consider and reverse the plight of minorities is simply not facing reality. Federal and State Governments, private institutions and universities have taken anti-discrimination measures so extreme they were actually overturned by the supreme court for being discriminatory against, among other groups, whites.

Supreme Court backs Michigan affirmative action ban - Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-supreme-court-affirmative-action-michigan-20140422-story.html)

I suspect many white males hoping for an interview would gladly trade with you. Not only do they lack the scholarships, stipends, type ratings, internships, etc., that assist females and minorities in getting qualified , but also preferential hiring driven by Federal statutes. Case in point, the 1978 EEOC mandate that forced hiring quotas for gender and ethnicity and later levied penalties and reparations against UAL.

Imagine the resentment felt by the white male regional captain who, year after year, watched his minority and female FOs getting hired by majors he'd been applying to. I've heard this story told over and over and actually experienced it firsthand. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; not only condoned, its encouraged by institutions thinking that 2 wrongs =1 right. Like your ancestors, people denied opportunities because of their skin color are justifiably resentful.

We will continue to be divided as a nation so long as we we continue to assign sexism or racism as the reason for everything that doesn't go our way. Mrs Mallory actually checked both blocks with one sentence. Prejudices, generally based upon ignorance, are passed down though generations and cause us to see things in dramatically different fashion. Case in point, the perspectives and associated anger that brought about the Black Lives Matter movement. Conversely, whites were stunned and angered by the extent to which so many in the black community actually celebrated the verdict in the OJ Simpson murder trial.

To be fair, extensive measures have been taken to reverse the ravages of racism and inequality. Consider what the last generation considered unthinkable: the election of a black President. Obama could not have been elected solely without the white vote.

No country on earth is devoid of prejudice and no culture, nationality or race have been spared the horrors of slavery, invasion, slaughter. Go back far enough in anyone's lineage and you'll find ancestors getting hosed. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Conquistadors, Romans, Barbarians, Vikings, Huns, Ottoman Empire, Turks, Tutsis, Hutus, Mayans, Incas, Japanese Empire, etc. Protracted conflicts and religious hatred persist around the world till this day, making our plight seem relatively mild.

As you'd mentioned, times are better, but not perfect. Anyone believing we will ever completely eradicate racism is deluding themselves; It will always be present to an extent in EVERY culture. The question is this: do we work together and advance as a nation, striving to correct inequalities, recognize our successes or do we continue to assign blame, and mire in the racist practices and prejudices of the past? Do we throw up our hands because it's still not perfect?

We must learn from the past, not continue to live it. The time has come to move on. Hopefully a day will come when we are all seen as equals and treated as such.

Peace.

KSwift76
10-29-2017, 05:20 AM
I believe that goes both ways. To say that the era we live in does not include an unprecedented effort for 'the privileged white class' to consider and reverse the plight of minorities is simply not facing reality. Federal and State Governments, private institutions and universities have taken anti-discrimination measures so extreme they were actually overturned by the supreme court for being discriminatory against, among other groups, whites.

Supreme Court backs Michigan affirmative action ban - Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-supreme-court-affirmative-action-michigan-20140422-story.html)

I suspect many white males hoping for an interview would gladly trade with you. Not only do they lack the scholarships, stipends, type ratings, internships, etc., that assist females and minorities in getting qualified , but also preferential hiring driven by Federal statutes. Case in point, the 1978 EEOC mandate that forced hiring quotas for gender and ethnicity and later levied penalties and reparations against UAL.

Imagine the resentment felt by the white male regional captain who, year after year, watched his minority and female FOs getting hired by majors he'd been applying to. I've heard this story told over and over and actually experienced it firsthand. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; not only condoned, its encouraged by institutions thinking that 2 wrongs =1 right. Like your ancestors, people denied opportunities because of their skin color are justifiably resentful.

We will continue to be divided as a nation so long as we we continue to assign sexism or racism as the reason for everything that doesn't go our way. Mrs Mallory actually checked both blocks with one sentence. Prejudices, generally based upon ignorance, are passed down though generations and cause us to see things in dramatically different fashion. Case in point, the perspectives and associated anger that brought about the Black Lives Matter movement. Conversely, whites were stunned and angered by the extent to which so many in the black community actually celebrated the verdict in the OJ Simpson murder trial.

To be fair, extensive measures have been taken to reverse the ravages of racism and inequality. Consider what the last generation considered unthinkable: the election of a black President. Obama could not have been elected solely without the white vote.

No country on earth is devoid of prejudice and no culture, nationality or race have been spared the horrors of slavery, invasion, slaughter. Go back far enough in anyone's lineage and you'll find ancestors getting hosed. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Conquistadors, Romans, Barbarians, Vikings, Huns, Ottoman Empire, Turks, Tutsis, Hutus, Mayans, Incas, Japanese Empire, etc. Protracted conflicts and religious hatred persist around the world till this day, making our plight seem relatively mild.

As you'd mentioned, times are better, but not perfect. Anyone believing we will ever completely eradicate racism is deluding themselves; It will always be present to an extent in EVERY culture. The question is this: do we work together and advance as a nation, striving to correct inequalities, recognize our successes or do we continue to assign blame, and mire in the racist practices and prejudices of the past? Do we throw up our hands because it's still not perfect?

We must learn from the past, not continue to live it. The time has come to move on. Hopefully a day will come when we are all seen as equals and treated as such.

Peace.

Good Morning!

I know I said I was out, but when I get an thoughtful response it is rude not to respond and give you that courtesy so here goes...

You are absolutely correct, President Obama would not have won without the white vote. Heck forget the previous generation, I never thought I would see it in my life and I'm in my 40's. The guy before him must have been really horrible :) (not trying to turn this into a political debate, just a little jab) We have definitely come along way as I've mentioned in one of my other posts, but we are not there yet.

You say guys would gladly trade with me for access that I may or may not have had as a Black male in this business. I suspect that may be true. However, I don't get to pick and choose when I am Black. I am Black all day every day 365 days a year. Just because there is a belief in our business that we get all kinds of handouts, lower minimums, etc...I can assure you it is not peaches and cream being a Black man in America. As an example, I have to be a lot more selective if I move to a new city on where I live because I do not want my children to go to schools where they are the only Black face in 2000 students. That's tough on a teenager. Twice when I've moved for my major airline, I fly with guys from a base and I ask where they live (good schools, nice neighborhood etc.) Once I've done the research those areas are generally 80-90% white which of course translates to the situation in school described above. Not a horrible burden, but just an example of an extra factor I have to consider that most of you guys probably do not.

You and several other have mentioned reverse discrimination so lets look at it like this. If you have 10 apples and I have 2 and I am given 5 apples because historically and legally I have been only allowed to have 2 apples, you still have more apples than me, by a lot. In the next round maybe you still get 2 apples and if I get 2 your are still ahead of me. In addition, your dad owns the apple orchard, the grocery store, and all other means of distribution. I still do not have as many apples as you no matter that the government has said there is no longer any restriction on how many apples I can have. Regarding the Regional captain who feels bad he's getting passed over. I bet you the Tuskegee Airmen felt pretty bad they were getting passed over for decades. How about my Uncle (who got me into aviation) who wanted to fly but instead went to dental school because his parents did not see an avenue for employment as a pilot for him (airline pilot was not an option for Black people in the 50's and 60's)? I know two wrongs don't make a right, but the fact that the average stuck white regional captain feels like he is getting left behind while everyone else is being "gifted" with major airline jobs speaks to some of that privilege that we talked about earlier in this thread.

I hear what you're saying and I know for many it is personal, but is also personal for me when we pull up to the gate and I hear "3 thugs and a tug..." or "another empty kitchen..." or "YoNited." I heard stuff like that all the time (when I was an F/O:D) and guys I fly with wouldn't even think that any of it was the least bit offensive. It is!

I guess the main point of my stance is, the stroke of a pen does not magically overnight change hundreds of years of discrimination or peoples thoughts and beliefs about other races. To the poster (not you) who said there is no more racism or discrimination because it is now law...You are incorrect! But there is hope, because we are talking about it and I haven't been called a bad name...yet. Good luck to us all and enjoy a fine Sunday afternoon for watching the NFL. That's what I plan to do.

Cheers

busdriver12
10-29-2017, 05:51 AM
Imagine the resentment felt by the white male regional captain who, year after year, watched his minority and female FOs getting hired by majors he'd been applying to. I've heard this story told over and over and actually experienced it firsthand. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; not only condoned, its encouraged by institutions thinking that 2 wrongs =1 right. Like your ancestors, people denied opportunities because of their skin color are justifiably resentful.


Except....that regional captain was also watching his white male FO's getting hired by the majors he'd been applying to, in far greater numbers. Was he resentful about that? He was consoling himself that he wasn't getting the call and being denied opportunities, because all those slots were going to the undeserving minority and female FO's.

But there just aren't that many of them. They aren't taking all the opportunities away, just a few. And they might actually be as (or more) qualified as their competitors, so making the assumption this is all about reverse discrimination is nothing more than people finding an excuse for why they aren't getting hired.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 05:54 AM
I'm sorry but that's just not true anymore. There is nothing in this country now that is preventing anyone from building wealth. Failure of that is because of personal choices.

You are utterly and unequivocally wrong. Look dude we don't owe anything to anybody, nor are we responsible for people's actions or their situation, but statistical factual data proves that if you are born white, than you have a higher probability of access to generational wealth. This isn't rocket science. To say that some kid from Compton and a kid from Beverly Hills have the same shot at life is just plain stupid. It's the advantage of generational wealth accrued through various means to include slavery and Jim Crow. You don't owe anybody anything, but come on dude, use that brain that (statistically) your parents helped put through college. Of course of course you are a poor white kid that made it on his own and no one helped you, blah blah, it's in the statistics and national average that white people have more wealth. Period, done, no capable argument.
Ok well minority's have had access to wealth and bone it up! Well in answer to that it's about education which is garnered from resources etc etc.
I don't owe anybody **** as a white male, but I'm not childish nor naive enough to say I don't get some benefit from my ancestors wealth base.
Kswift give it up dude, most of these geezers just sit with their face glued to Fox News, chewing their nails crying about transgender kids needing to go to the bathroom.

busdriver12
10-29-2017, 06:18 AM
The biggest predictor of being born into poverty is being born into a single family household. The majority of impoverished families in this country are white (though obviously there are higher numbers overall). If you end up being a single parent, that is the number one way you can get into poverty, and stay there.

METO Guido
10-29-2017, 06:29 AM
Ok well minority's have had access to wealth and bone it up! Well in answer to that it's about education which is garnered from resources etc etc.
I don't owe anybody **** as a white male, but I'm not childish nor naive enough to say I don't get some benefit from my ancestors wealth base.
Kswift give it up dude, most of these geezers just sit with their face glued to Fox News, chewing their nails crying about transgender kids needing to go to the bathroom.


Geezers eh? Soooo tempting to paint with a wide brush. Poverty & ghetto's haven't disappeared and if you're saying failure to escape that start in life is not typically a personal choice, I agree.

Slaphappy
10-29-2017, 06:30 AM
It's the advantage of generational wealth accrued through various means to include slavery and Jim Crow.

And that's the part that is not true. You bring up things that have not been a factor in generations as excuses for the failure of certain people. Things like single parent family's and culture are causes but not government policies that ended 50+ years ago.

Success has nothing to do with race and everything To do life choices.

busdriver12
10-29-2017, 06:37 AM
Success has nothing to do with race and everything To do life choices.

But a major problem is that it's often your parent's life choices that you start out with. Not yours, unfortunately.

Slaphappy
10-29-2017, 06:42 AM
But a major problem is that it's often your parent's life choices that you start out with. Not yours, unfortunately.

That's true, but to say it's because of race and not culture is a cop-out. You just have to look at Asians who have the highest wealth accumulation and income of anyone in this country. Most are first generation immigrants and they also had to deal will discrimination from the government till the mid sixties as well, but they aren't stuck in a poverty rut.

KSwift76
10-29-2017, 06:55 AM
And that's the part that is not true. You bring up things that have not been a factor in generations as excuses for the failure of certain people. Things like single parent family's and culture are causes but not government policies that ended 50+ years ago.

Success has nothing to do with race and everything To do life choices.

Generations? My parents couldn't be pilots and had to sit in the colored section. My dad (from Alabama) had to go to an HBCU because Auburn or u of Alabama was not an option for him. I'm 40. We are not that far removed.

SpeedyVagabond
10-29-2017, 07:21 AM
Generations? My parents couldn't be pilots and had to sit in the colored section. My dad (from Alabama) had to go to an HBCU because Auburn or u of Alabama was not an option for him. I'm 40. We are not that far removed.

Yes, we are. I've flown with two first officers from projects. New York and Chicago. They made it here just like their shot and imprisoned friends could have as well. I was raised not seeing skin color and I see that in my nieces and nephews and their friends. I've flown with good ol' boys from AL and MS who would probably have been racists a couple of generations back. Things are changing and past practices are slipping into history. If the people in the inner cities want to have a better life they're going to have to look to themselves and effect their own change. It won't come from anywhere else and cant be fixed with dollars. But that doesn't fit the woe is me, I'm not responsible, why do I need to be accountable and take responsibility for my own life narrative ao popular today in America.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 07:32 AM
Yes, we are. I've flown with two first officers from projects. New York and Chicago. They made it here just like their shot and imprisoned friends could have as well. I was raised not seeing skin color and I see that in my nieces and nephews and their friends. I've flown with good ol' boys from AL and MS who would probably have been racists a couple of generations back. Things are changing and past practices are slipping into history. If the people in the inner cities want to have a better life they're going to have to look to themselves and effect their own change. It won't come from anywhere else and cant be fixed with dollars. But that doesn't fit the woe is me, I'm not responsible, why do I need to be accountable and take responsibility for my own life narrative ao popular today in America.

So you are telling someone who experienced something first hand that they didn't experience something first hand? You crazy bruh? Life isn't Disneyland where you get to make up your own narrative to fit your needs. Listen to the guy as he tells you the way it was.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 07:34 AM
And that's the part that is not true. You bring up things that have not been a factor in generations as excuses for the failure of certain people. Things like single parent family's and culture are causes but not government policies that ended 50+ years ago.

Success has nothing to do with race and everything To do life choices.
Says the rich white guy with rich white parents

at6d
10-29-2017, 07:52 AM
So for discussion, let's say there is no question that "white privilege" is totally real.

So what's the answer?

Take away the white "privilege" and give it to African Americans by doing what exactly?

Make things more "fair" by doing what?

KSwift76
10-29-2017, 07:58 AM
Yes, we are. I've flown with two first officers from projects. New York and Chicago. They made it here just like their shot and imprisoned friends could have as well. I was raised not seeing skin color and I see that in my nieces and nephews and their friends. I've flown with good ol' boys from AL and MS who would probably have been racists a couple of generations back. Things are changing and past practices are slipping into history. If the people in the inner cities want to have a better life they're going to have to look to themselves and effect their own change. It won't come from anywhere else and cant be fixed with dollars. But that doesn't fit the woe is me, I'm not responsible, why do I need to be accountable and take responsibility for my own life narrative ao popular today in America.

Not once in any post did I mention anything about anyone from the inner cities. I too have flown with some good ol boys from Alabama and Mississippi and although they didn't call me n#$*er I could definitely see it wasn't a foreign term to them based on some of the other things that were said. So no, because you flew with 2 folks from inner cities that made it, and I made it, and we had a Black President, racism and discrimination is not a thing of previous generations and the past. Charlottesville 2017 comes to mind and our current president as he talks about ..."the Blacks" in several speeches. We have to be willing to acknowledge a problem before we can fix it. Thankfully, the government acknowledged it with the Civil Rights Act. It's going to take some time to fix it since ideas and beliefs are not magically wiped away.

Perhaps if your children or grandchildren marry, date, or have a child with a person of color you will get a better understanding.

Again I had it better than most, but that doesn't matter when I walk in to a store or car dealership or model house...

I sincerely wish you the best and hope you find it in you to consider that just maybe we have had different experiences and also different opportunities due to our different skin tone.

Cheers

LNL76
10-29-2017, 08:14 AM
Says the rich white guy with rich white parents

Soooo, every white guy has rich white parents?! Fascinating!

Has anyone mentioned children of immigrants who had nothing handed to them AND faced discrimination even in big cities? There were no ESL classes or hiring quotas or anyone who gave a crap to help them succeed. All they had (or didn't have) was pride, a strong work ethic and determination to decide their success. Many joined the military to give them skills they'd use in their careers.

I'm tired of hearing, in this day and age, that certain groups are at a disadvantage. Bullcrap!

Slaphappy
10-29-2017, 08:24 AM
Says the rich white guy with rich white parents

Juvenile.

The reason you lose arguments is because you appeal to emotion not to facts.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 08:27 AM
So for discussion, let's say there is no question that "white privilege" is totally real.

So what's the answer?

Take away the white "privilege" and give it to African Americans by doing what exactly?

Make things more "fair" by doing what?
Nope, I don't think there is anything to do (as I stated a couple of posts ago). I don't owe anybody **** except my parents, wife, kids, and some other few folk. It's the way the world is. Folks have to just deal with the situation the world handed them.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 08:29 AM
Juvenile.

The reason you lose arguments is because you appeal to emotion not to facts.

Says the rich old white guy with rich white parents

Unpilot
10-29-2017, 08:33 AM
Blacks in the US have higher incarceration rates. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Much greater wealth inequality. Wealth inequality has widened along racial, ethnic lines since end of Great Recession | Pew Research Center (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/12/racial-wealth-gaps-great-recession/)

College graduation rates. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/04/26/college-completion-rates-vary-race-and-ethnicity-report-finds

Those are just three data points. There are many more one could look at.

So why would this be? Are blacks inferior...or just maybe the playing field is not level.

The problem as one can see from looking at just this forum thread is when one talks about privilege. People take it as a personal attack. "I never owned slaves...I work hard why can't everyone else" The cartoon a few pages back does not help either. It is to simplistic and offensive.

But we have to ask why is it that blacks have such a lower life expectancy,lower education,higher incarceration rate,much less wealth?

I do not believe it is because of who they are but because of the sometime subtle and sometimes not so subtle effects of discrimination.

tyler durden
10-29-2017, 08:50 AM
In any case, efforts must be made to address the problem. Besides everything that has been done, what else is there? What more can government and non-government agencies do? Where does the responsibility of the community come in?

Again, blacks or not the only ones that have been discriminated against in this country. Irish, Italians, Chinese, even Jews, to an extent. Refusing to accept what was given, they all somehow managed to overcome their circumstances. Likewise, so have many blacks in this country.

I do not believe everything is necessarily race related. Take, for example, the success rate of today's first generation immigrant black Americans who come from the Caribbean or Africa. Not growing up under Government programs that insult and enable, they are hard-working, successful members of their community. They realize it's a tough world out there, and the world will give you nothing. People, regardless of skin color, religion, background, whatever, must pull their weight and do the best their best to compete. The Government programs, although well-intentioned, or not the answer. Communities must take responsibility. And that includes the black community. Black students accusing other successful black students that they "are trying to be white", hoping to hold them down, is not the answer. Overwhelming percentages of children being born fatherless is not the answer. People like Mrs Mallory, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton blaming everything on racism and white power is not the answer. Organizations such as "black lives matter" NAACP, Colin Keapernick, laser focused on the tragic deaths of minorities at the hands of police, somehow ignore the infinitely higher number of black on black homicides (genocide) in our inner cities. They are not the answer.

I applaud the effort and successes of those in the black community that overcome the challenges placed before them. Arguably, many of these challenges come from the black community itself. Unfortunately, those that become successful often leave their communities behind.

It's good that these perspectives are being discussed and exchanged. As communities, we are growing further apart as we see each other his actions as unfair and divisive. As much as it's important for the white community to understand the issues and concerns facing the black community, the reverse applies as well.

Slaphappy
10-29-2017, 08:54 AM
Blacks in the US have higher incarceration rates. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Much greater wealth inequality. Wealth inequality has widened along racial, ethnic lines since end of Great Recession | Pew Research Center (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/12/racial-wealth-gaps-great-recession/)

College graduation rates. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/04/26/college-completion-rates-vary-race-and-ethnicity-report-finds

Those are just three data points. There are many more one could look at.

So why would this be? Are blacks inferior...or just maybe the playing field is not level.

The problem as one can see from looking at just this forum thread is when one talks about privilege. People take it as a personal attack. "I never owned slaves...I work hard why can't everyone else" The cartoon a few pages back does not help either. It is to simplistic and offensive.

But we have to ask why is it that blacks have such a lower life expectancy,lower education,higher incarceration rate,much less wealth?

I do not believe it is because of who they are but because of the sometime subtle and sometimes not so subtle effects of discrimination.

How about culture?

The playing field is level, the laws of the land require that.
Life choices are the reason for personal failure. To say it's either racism or inferiority is racist in itself.

Nobody forces people to murder other people, nobody forces people to commit crimes or rob. There are many other groups of poor people that don't resort to crime because of their economic situation.

Says the rich old white guy with rich white parents


Embarrassing.

I'm sure i'm much younger than you and my immigrant parents would disagree with your assessment but continue to embarrass yourself.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 09:08 AM
Embarrassing.

I'm sure i'm much younger than you and my immigrant parents would disagree with your assessment but continue to embarrass yourself.

I think you are a liar and that you should execute self reflection before you feel like you need to make up stuff on an Internet forum to prove a point that is actually backed up by statistical facts.
Oh and only someone who is weak minded or inherently knows they are wrong, would think that somehow an anonymous Internet forum would be embarrassing.
Sorry to burst your bubble bro, but This isn't the 50s and 60s anymore and the supremacy of the white male is slowly getting dumpstered....and good riddance.

Unpilot
10-29-2017, 09:10 AM
How about culture?

The playing field is level, the laws of the land require that.
Life choices are the reason for personal failure. To say it's either racism or inferiority is racist in itself.

Nobody forces people to murder other people, nobody forces people to commit crimes or rob. There are many other groups of poor people that don't resort to crime because of their economic situation.




What do you mean by culture?

Life choices as a reason seem hard to defend when you start so far back. Being born in a poor household in a poor neighborhood is not a life choice.

A good read on this is "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell.

StrykerB21
10-29-2017, 09:11 AM
So after 16 pages of intelligent discussion on the matter did we ever find out if American Airlines is racist?

Slaphappy
10-29-2017, 09:24 AM
I think you are a liar and that you should execute self reflection before you feel like you need to make up stuff on an Internet forum to prove a point that is actually backed up by statistical facts.
Oh and only someone who is weak minded or inherently knows they are wrong, would think that somehow an anonymous Internet forum would be embarrassing.
Sorry to burst your bubble bro, but This isn't the 50s and 60s anymore and the supremacy of the white male is slowly getting dumpstered....and good riddance.

and I think you're nothing more than angry little troll that has done nothing to prove any of his talking points with any factual data and is just spouting off buzzwords and nonsense.

There hasn't been a "supremacy of the white male" in a decades, everyone today is capable of achieving success or failure under their own merits. So if anything is going away and dying it the perpetual victim hood that so many people love to revel in and profit off of.

METO Guido
10-29-2017, 09:29 AM
So after 16 pages of intelligent discussion on the matter did we ever find out if American Airlines is racist?
IMHO, negative. Would be encouraging to see their management however, follow this leader's example:
WfjZ1otkS3o

GogglesPisano
10-29-2017, 09:32 AM
I'm still waiting to see evidence of AA's racist events.

ItnStln
10-29-2017, 09:52 AM
The idea of white privilege is offensive and bigoted. Think about it.

You're correct, it is!

ItnStln
10-29-2017, 10:37 AM
Reverse discrimination is still discrimination; not only condoned, its encouraged by institutions thinking that 2 wrongs =1 right. Like your ancestors, people denied opportunities because of their skin color are justifiably resentful.

Well said sir! I have a problem with the term "reverse discrimination" as I feel the word reverse is unnecessary as it is still discrimination. I agree with you that it is encouraged by institutions to engage in that practice.

ItnStln
10-29-2017, 10:46 AM
Soooo, every white guy has rich white parents?! Fascinating!

Has anyone mentioned children of immigrants who had nothing handed to them AND faced discrimination even in big cities? There were no ESL classes or hiring quotas or anyone who gave a crap to help them succeed. All they had (or didn't have) was pride, a strong work ethic and determination to decide their success. Many joined the military to give them skills they'd use in their careers.

I'm tired of hearing, in this day and age, that certain groups are at a disadvantage. Bullcrap!That's exactly what my ancestors did when they came here in the 1920's and were discriminated against because they weren't Germanic, Scandinavian, or Anglo-Saxon. Not once did they complain. Instead they made something of themselves. Anyone who says people from where my ancestors came from weren't discriminated against needs to study the 1920's.

ItnStln
10-29-2017, 10:49 AM
Organizations such as "black lives matter" NAACP, Colin Keapernick, laser focused on the tragic deaths of minorities at the hands of police, somehow ignore the infinitely higher number of black on black homicides (genocide) in our inner cities.

Why is that never discussed? I have asked that many times and never once got an answer. For the record I'm not a racist and I've been the victim of discrimination many times.

Unpilot
10-29-2017, 10:56 AM
It is discussed : https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/white-supremacists-favorite-myths-about-black-crime-rates-take-another-hit-bjs-study

This is a small snip-it:

Indeed, the rate of white-on-white violent crime, it found, is about four times the rate of black-on-white crime.

SpeedyVagabond
10-29-2017, 11:18 AM
IMHO, negative. Would be encouraging to see their management however, follow this leader's example:
WfjZ1otkS3o

This is great management. Against a clear case of unacceptable racism. Mrs. Mallory was removed for behaving boorishly in public not for any racism or white male aggression. Apples to oranges but Dead Seal will somehow link it to my poor immigrant relations from early twentieth century Germany and ireland.

SpeedyVagabond
10-29-2017, 11:21 AM
I'm still waiting to see evidence of AA's racist events.

Me too. I've removed two white men from my flights in my ten years of captaincy. What type of racist does that make me?

GogglesPisano
10-29-2017, 11:25 AM
This is great management. Against a clear case of unacceptable racism. Mrs. Mallory was removed for behaving boorishly in public not for any racism or white male aggression. Apples to oranges but Dead Seal will somehow link it to my poor immigrant relations from early twentieth century Germany and ireland.

Obviously, you're part of the white male hierarchy. If you deny racism you are -- by default -- racist.

Get it now?

This whole conversation has so many trigger words, I feel I need to back to my safe space and cuddle my emotional support fish.

SpeedyVagabond
10-29-2017, 11:31 AM
Obviously, you're part of the white male hierarchy. If you deny racism you are -- by default -- racist.

Get it now?

This whole conversation has so many trigger words, I feel I need to back to my safe space and cuddle my emotional support fish.

It's pretty nifty how it works. Joseph Heller would be bemused by it all.

deadseal
10-29-2017, 11:34 AM
This is great management. Against a clear case of unacceptable racism. Mrs. Mallory was removed for behaving boorishly in public not for any racism or white male aggression. Apples to oranges but Dead Seal will somehow link it to my poor immigrant relations from early twentieth century Germany and ireland.

I never touched the pax behavior, naacp, or blm but thanks for playing. I think all 3 are retarded. Not sure why people take the concept of generational wealth as personal attacks. I'm talking about the non emotional, scientific study of our historical distribution of wealth and where it derived from. Most white people benefit from their ancestors ability to garner wealth in a period when EVERY other ethnic group was restricted.
Fact: my ancestors fought as confederates, saw the writing on the wall, sold all their **** and turned it into gold. They then moved to Utah and bought farmland. After that in the 1920s they moved to California and bought land on the Oxnard plain. My parents are rich, I grew up rich and went to nice schools and a nice college. I am the definition of white privilege. A more accurate description would be "I got here first nanny nanny boo boo". Do I think I owe anybody anything? Nope. I just try not to be naive about it. I don't buy into the hype of left right whatever, I'm talking the anthropological study of various groups of people in our country. Ask a Native American about white privilege.

Come on dude you are smarter than that. Take your weird gut reaction out of the equation

SpeedyVagabond
10-29-2017, 11:44 AM
So after 16 pages of intelligent discussion on the matter did we ever find out if American Airlines is racist?

Ah, the original topic. I was wondering where that went. Every large group in America has some racists in it. We all know this. I think we can all agree on that. That doesn't make the group inherently racist. I doubt very much that the captain involved in any way infringed on her civil rights and I'm not dumb enough to believe there aren't any racists at AA. I wish Parker would have emailed to the NAACP and Mrs. Mallory the links to Delta and United. That would have been proper leadership. But no, he appears to have caved into public perception and bowing to PC gods. Too bad. I'm so sick of public conviction by fools who have no facts.

METO Guido
10-29-2017, 12:18 PM
I wish Parker would have emailed to the NAACP and Mrs. Mallory the links to Delta and United. That would have been proper leadership.

I was hoping for something along these lines…
AA calls on the NAACP to support its claim of pattern racist treatment of any customer with credible evidence thereof. Absent a legitimate response, we continue our efforts to provide all passengers with safe, reliable travel throughout the planet by an organization dedicated to improvement toward one goal: Best airline choice in the free world.

casual observer
10-30-2017, 12:57 AM
IMHO, negative. Would be encouraging to see their management however, follow this leader's example:
WfjZ1otkS3o

Well worth the time to watch every word.

My question is: when we see a statement like that, do we think it is, or should be, directed at only white males? Is that the only target audience for this message.

casual observer
10-30-2017, 01:22 AM
I never touched the pax behavior, naacp, or blm but thanks for playing. I think all 3 are retarded. Not sure why people take the concept of generational wealth as personal attacks. I'm talking about the non emotional, scientific study of our historical distribution of wealth and where it derived from. Most white people benefit from their ancestors ability to garner wealth in a period when EVERY other ethnic group was restricted.
Fact: my ancestors fought as confederates, saw the writing on the wall, sold all their **** and turned it into gold. They then moved to Utah and bought farmland. After that in the 1920s they moved to California and bought land on the Oxnard plain. My parents are rich, I grew up rich and went to nice schools and a nice college. I am the definition of white privilege. A more accurate description would be "I got here first nanny nanny boo boo". Do I think I owe anybody anything? Nope. I just try not to be naive about it. I don't buy into the hype of left right whatever, I'm talking the anthropological study of various groups of people in our country. Ask a Native American about white privilege.

Come on dude you are smarter than that. Take your weird gut reaction out of the equation

So, your ancestors had some quality that caused them to anticipate the future and save money that has led to you being advantaged. You think that is unfair and should be mitigated somehow by society.

80% of NBA players are African American males, although they only represent about 6% of the population. I submit that is not a problem because they are the best at what they do. But, you could make the argument they were advantaged in regards to aptitude because they began physically superior by being born male and because of the physical superiority of their ancestors.

Do we make the hoops wider and lower to the ground in the hopes more women and white guys are able to compete and mitigate the inequality of outcomes in regards to NBA positions?

KSwift76
10-30-2017, 03:56 AM
So, your ancestors had some quality that caused them to anticipate the future and save money that has led to you being advantaged. You think that is unfair and should be mitigated somehow by society.

80% of NBA players are African American males, although they only represent about 6% of the population. I submit that is not a problem because they are the best at what they do. But, you could make the argument they were advantaged in regards to aptitude because they began physically superior by being born male and because of the physical superiority of their ancestors.

Do we make the hoops wider and lower to the ground in the hopes more women and white guys are able to compete and mitigate the inequality of outcomes in regards to NBA positions?

Regarding the NBA. Unintended consequences of force breeding what at the time was property (or in my case ancestors) to create the strongest person to sustain the slavery system that built this country. Just like a few generations didn't correct that issue, the same is true regarding socioeconomic issues.

Really quite simple.

METO Guido
10-30-2017, 05:03 AM
Well worth the time to watch every word.

My question is: when we see a statement like that, do we think it is, or should be, directed at only white males? Is that the only target audience for this message.
I take it as an, if the shoe fits message, intended for cadets as well those who would wink & nod perpetuate a supremacist bias. A white man proven though objective selection as most capable to lead, must be given that chance. Goes without saying, he should have faith in the selection method if a female or minority candidate is chosen instead.

SpeedyVagabond
10-30-2017, 05:52 AM
My question is: when we see a statement like that, do we think it is, or should be, directed at only white males? Is that the only target audience for this message.


Of course not. Who knows if it was a white male that wrote it? Has that been proven? And his message is directed to all racism. I find it interesting that a scandal at another one of universities involving white graffiti turns out to have been committed by a black guy stirring things up. Who can say the same thing isn't happening here? Facts before judgement people. Facts before judgement. Words for the NAACP and Mrs. Mallory to live by.

That said. I think this is an example of excellent leadership to strongly squash out any racist thoughts and forcefully remind everyone it's not welcome in any organization.

deadseal
10-30-2017, 06:02 AM
So, your ancestors had some quality that caused them to anticipate the future and save money that has led to you being advantaged. You think that is unfair and should be mitigated somehow by society.


Did you even read my post? I clearly stated that I don't owe anybody anything bruh. I don't think society can or should do anything. People have to help themselves. I just think its utterly stupid to say the privelage of wealth(statistically in the hands of white people) doesn't exist.

Slaphappy
10-30-2017, 06:57 AM
Did you even read my post? I just think its utterly stupid to say the privelage of wealth(statistically in the hands of white people) doesn't exist.

It doesn't. Also once again, Privilege is spelt with 2 I's and no A's.

My parents are rich, I grew up rich and went to nice schools and a nice college. I am the definition of white privilege.

//

Ask a Native American about white privilege.

I think you're the definition of a Bourgeoisie liberal. Maybe you suffer from 'guilt', I don't know but you don't get to project your 'guilt' on the rest of us who don't subscribe to you buzzwords and conspiracies.

and what do the Indians have to do with anything?

deadseal
10-30-2017, 07:29 AM
It doesn't. Also once again, Privilege is spelt with 2 I's and no A's.



I think you're the definition of a Bourgeoisie liberal. Maybe you suffer from 'guilt', I don't know but you don't get to project your 'guilt' on the rest of us who don't subscribe to you buzzwords and conspiracies.

and what do the Indians have to do with anything?

Lol, ok captain grammer.

So to get this straight.... do you think a inner city kid from Chicago has exactly the same shot at sustainable success as a kid from west LA? Yes or no? No quibbling.

Not sure what Indians have to do with anything as they are from India. But native Americans would certainly say that everyone enjoys a privElage that they do not. If you can't see that, then you need some dramatic existential event to shake your reality away from the fox propaganda that you so easily gobble up like the meek sheep you are. The world is not black and white, go outside, volunteer at a shelter, maybe listen to minorities with an open ear. Get off your couch and do something that involves other people than just the other self entitled whities you hang with. It might blow your mind.

Let's take it even further, Americans in general are privelaged compared to the other 95% of the people on this planet. Privelaged is more like"holy sh1t I'm lucky I wasn't born in the ****ing Congo"

at6d
10-30-2017, 07:36 AM
"self entitled whities" is a racist comment. As a honkie, am I allowed to be offended?

hilltopflyer
10-30-2017, 08:00 AM
How can America not be racist when we have a tv show called Blackish

Slaphappy
10-30-2017, 08:00 AM
Lol, ok captain grammer.

So to get this straight.... do you think a inner city kid from Chicago has exactly the same shot at sustainable success as a kid from west LA? Yes or no? No quibbling.


On paper yes, but in reality No. But that has more to do with a culture that celebrates crime and ignorance and cradle to grave social policies than it does with non-existent "white privilege".

You should probably just stop, you're embarrassing yourself again.

Peacock
10-30-2017, 08:12 AM
Lol, ok captain grammer.

So to get this straight.... do you think a inner city kid from Chicago has exactly the same shot at sustainable success as a kid from west LA? Yes or no? No quibbling.

Not sure what Indians have to do with anything as they are from India. But native Americans would certainly say that everyone enjoys a privElage that they do not. If you can't see that, then you need some dramatic existential event to shake your reality away from the fox propaganda that you so easily gobble up like the meek sheep you are. The world is not black and white, go outside, volunteer at a shelter, maybe listen to minorities with an open ear. Get off your couch and do something that involves other people than just the other self entitled whities you hang with. It might blow your mind.

Let's take it even further, Americans in general are privelaged compared to the other 95% of the people on this planet. Privelaged is more like"holy sh1t I'm lucky I wasn't born in the ****ing Congo"
First of all, learn how to spell.

Second, being born into wealth or at least middle class is certainly a privileged start to life. Calling it "white privilege" is racist B.S. and incredibly insulting to the many poor white people that achieved success despite their start. Having money and the benefits that come from it is not defined by skin color.

deadseal
10-30-2017, 08:47 AM
First of all, learn how to spell.

Second, being born into wealth or at least middle class is certainly a privileged start to life.

I hate to say I was petty and waiting for this comment, I thought the other dude would say it first. I appreciate you putting the nail in this coffin though.
Average white household median income 102,200.....

Wait for it....
Average black household median income 6,800
Average Hispanic is 4000

You are statistically more likely to, how did you put it? Oh ya..."born into wealth or at least middle class (which) is certainly a privilege" if you are white

White people dont owe anybody anything unless you're a **

Thanks guys...tip your waitress on the way out

Peacock
10-30-2017, 09:02 AM
I hate to say I was petty and waiting for this comment, I thought the other dude would say it first. I appreciate you putting the nail in this coffin though.
Average white household median income 102,200.....

Wait for it....
Average black household median income 6,800
Average Hispanic is 4000

You are statistically more likely to, how did you put it? Oh ya..."born into wealth or at least middle class (which) is certainly a privilege" if you are white

White people dont owe anybody anything unless you're a dick

Thanks guys...tip your waitress on the way out

Wait, so it's ok to characterize an entire race based on a statistic and call it "white privilege?" I thought broad brush prejudices were a bad thing.

tyler durden
10-30-2017, 09:06 AM
I hate to say I was petty and waiting for this comment, I thought the other dude would say it first. I appreciate you putting the nail in this coffin though.
Average white household median income 102,200.....

Wait for it....
Average black household median income 6,800
Average Hispanic is 4000

You are statistically more likely to, how did you put it? Oh ya..."born into wealth or at least middle class (which) is certainly a privilege" if you are white

White people dont owe anybody anything unless you're a dick

Thanks guys...tip your waitress on the way out

"Among the race groups, Asian households had the highest median income in 2012 ($68,636). The median income for non-Hispanic White households was $57,009, and it was $33,321 for Black households. For Hispanic households the median income was $39,005," according to the report (the levels were not statistically significant from the 2011 report).

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9

I don't imagine incomes levels have changed much since 2012.

SpeedyVagabond
10-30-2017, 09:06 AM
Deadseal, I'm curious, did you vote for trump? You're tossing out alternative facts just like him but luckily the truth is easily ascertained and your lies and his just as easily dismissed. In fact, the average income for black households is just over 40,000 per year. You conveniently left out that you were comparing college educated white households with less educated black ones. So ypur 102,000 per white household is in fact accurate but you should compare it to the 82,000 per household income for college educated blacks. So while we're as a society becoming more equal with every passing year, we still have some work to do.

deadseal
10-30-2017, 09:33 AM
Deadseal, I'm curious, did you vote for trump? You're tossing out alternative facts just like him but luckily the truth is easily ascertained and your lies and his just as easily dismissed. In fact, the average income for black households is just over 40,000 per year. You conveniently left out that you were comparing college educated white households with less educated black ones. So ypur 102,000 per white household is in fact accurate but you should compare it to the 82,000 per household income for college educated blacks. So while we're as a society becoming more equal with every passing year, we still have some work to do.
You are right I screwed up and quoted the 1983 numbers from the graph

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/09/14/racial-wealth-inequality-in-the-u-s-is-rampant-infographic/amp/

I think the gist is the same though. Regardless of all the various graphs we can gen up from the internet the wealth gap is there, and based on race, whites enjoy their place at the top of the pile. That is the very definition of privilege.
You can't argue with your own words. This is the part where, like any good fighter pilot, you say "**** ya got me on that one bra" (talking to peacock).
It's real easy to sit on your throne and spread your decrees across the land, but when the 2 largest groups of minorities in this country think you are wrong, maybe step back and take a peek

Peacock
10-30-2017, 09:47 AM
Correlation does not equal causation. But that might be too much to ask for someone who actually believed that the median household income of blacks in this country is $6000

RhinoPherret
10-30-2017, 09:52 AM
A time out in the battle over mother earth.

HIGHLY SENSITIVE PEOPLE – 4 WAYS TO STOP EMOTIONAL SNOWBALLING

1. SEEK OUT A QUIET, EMPTY SPOT TO COOL DOWN (head for the nearest can!)

2. FOCUS ON SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU HAPPY TODAY (No. Not that again! Try something else) :eek:

3. LISTEN TO, OR WATCH SOMETHING UPBEAT (At least try a different porn site this time!) :o

4. REMEMBER THAT THIS TOO WILL PASS (just like a good old bowl of beans or cauliflower) :D

tyler durden
10-30-2017, 10:10 AM
Although surely I'm seen as a white privileged male when I walk through the airport, it would be prejudice to say that. But it's ok to prejudge because I'm white.

I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, fatherless, dropped out of high school. Sound familiar? After bouncing job to job I ended up throwing bags for a crappy airport contractor. When I learned what pilots made I didn't complain or begrudge them, I decided I would become one. Took a while (forever) as I had to save up for every hour (poor credit) but rating after rating I got closer. I finished HS (GED) went to community college, then got my BA (communications major; easy A, hot chicks). CFI'd--regional -major and loving life.

The difference between my experience and those of many women and minorities is that I had tough competition with all the other 95% privileged white guys in line and didn't have the scholarships or EEOC mandated quotas to get me preferential hiring. I also struggled with all the nay-Sayers that told me I wasn't the right pedigree (military, connected, right college) to be an airline pilot. I know many pilots that struggled like I did.

I could have easily used my background and environment as an excuse, but being a rich white kid, who would listen?

Hats off to the ones that make it, minority or not, but we need to stop assuming all white guys had it easy and women and minorities need hand outs. Like the white males, they are perfectly capable on their own.

Question: wouldn't "white privilege" also apply to white women? Were they underprivileged? Why the special scholarships, EEOC mandates, type ratings, internships etc?

Final note: I didn't pass along my upbringing and poverty. It's not a sentence. My fourth kid graduates from college this spring ($$Thank GOD). Smarter than me, they learned from my mistakes and never became pilots.

Slaphappy
10-30-2017, 10:12 AM
Deadseal, I'm curious, did you vote for trump? You're tossing out alternative facts just like him but luckily the truth is easily ascertained and your lies and his just as easily dismissed. In fact, the average income for black households is just over 40,000 per year. You conveniently left out that you were comparing college educated white households with less educated black ones. So ypur 102,000 per white household is in fact accurate but you should compare it to the 82,000 per household income for college educated blacks. So while we're as a society becoming more equal with every passing year, we still have some work to do.

really? does someone who talks about white "privilege" sound like someone who would vote for trump?

I hate to say I was petty and waiting for this comment, I thought the other dude would say it first. I appreciate you putting the nail in this coffin though.
Average white household median income 102,200.....

Wait for it....
Average black household median income 6,800
Average Hispanic is 4000

You are statistically more likely to, how did you put it? Oh ya..."born into wealth or at least middle class (which) is certainly a privilege" if you are white

White people dont owe anybody anything unless you're a **

Thanks guys...tip your waitress on the way out

You pulled that from a sanders tweet. It was debunked then and it has been debunked again. Those number aren't correct.

That is the very definition of privilege.
You can't argue with your own words. This is the part where, like any good fighter pilot, you say "**** ya got me on that one bra" (talking to peacock).

Privilege - a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people

Working hard is not a privilege you obviously don't know the definition of privilege or the correct spelling of it either.

You're equating hard work and success as something that is "granted" not earned.

SpeedyVagabond
10-30-2017, 10:20 AM
Well said, Tyler! People can cry anout how unfair it all is all day long. It simply doesn't matter to me any longer and I'm not listening because it's not true. Our country's citizens have done a good job ensuring that all have equal opportunity. That's the way it is today. Certainly some have more advantages than others but it's no longer society as a whole making that determination. It's smaller pockets of culture for lack of a better word. I'm taking Rhino's advice, going for a ride and then tuning out for a week while home on my rural island of white privilege. ; )

ItnStln
10-30-2017, 10:23 AM
Although surely I'm seen as a white privileged male when I walk through the airport, it would be prejudice to say that. But it's ok to prejudge because I'm white.

I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, fatherless, dropped out of high school. Sound familiar? After bouncing job to job I ended up throwing bags for a crappy airport contractor. When I learned what pilots made I didn't complain or begrudge them, I decided I would become one. Took a while (forever) as I had to save up for every hour (poor credit) but rating after rating I got closer. I finished HS (GED) went to community college, then got my BA (communications major; easy A, hot chicks). CFI'd--regional -major and loving life.

The difference between my experience and those of many women and minorities is that I had tough competition with all the other 95% privileged white guys in line and didn't have the scholarships or EEOC mandated quotas to get me preferential hiring. I know many pilots that struggled like I did.

I could have easily used my background and environment as an excuse, but being a rich white kid, who would listen?

Hats off to the ones that make it, minority or not, but we need to stop assuming all white guys had it easy and women and minorities need hand outs. Like the white males, they are perfectly capable on their own.

Question: wouldn't "white privilege" also apply to white women? Were they underprivileged? Why the special scholarships, type ratings, internships etc?Well said sir

deadseal
10-30-2017, 10:23 AM
Correlation does not equal causation. But that might be too much to ask for someone who actually believed that the median household income of blacks in this country is $6000

I knew you'd be too weak to admit you got snared in your own statement. I never claimed causation, and correlation is the whole point.
Try the veal bruh, I'm here all night.

You really want to know why I'm here and give a damn about talking to you or any of the other old white dudes here? It's because I'm too much of a chicken**** to argue in the cockpit and suffer through 4 days of awkward silence. I would say about five out of 10 old white captains want to talk about Christian politics and how anti-gay anti-black anti-anything other than them they are. Like I sad, it's a dying breed, and good riddance.
We are all riding the prosperity way of post World War II. And I think that you failed to realize that if my father had been black, he would've experienced segregation, and thus there is no way he could've supported my flying career.

That is the very definition of privilege

And ffs Stop inferring that I am telling anyone that anybody deserves special privilege, How many times do I have to say that nobody owes anybody anything. Unless you actively were a slave owner, or actively didn't hire someone because they were black, or supported segregation, then you don't owe anybody anything. This is purely the statistical anthropological application of information compared to our cultural diversity. I'm not sure why people take it so personally

ItnStln
10-30-2017, 10:37 AM
That same year I took a stuffed animal to "work" and took pictures all over the world and in the flight deck and my son put them up a posterboard about his dad's job... and Wow.

Are you the United 787 pilot who posts those photos on Instagram? If so those are great pictures you're posting.

Peacock
10-30-2017, 02:21 PM
I knew you'd be too weak to admit you got snared in your own statement. I never claimed causation, and correlation is the whole point.
Try the veal bruh, I'm here all night.

You really want to know why I'm here and give a damn about talking to you or any of the other old white dudes here? It's because I'm too much of a chicken**** to argue in the cockpit and suffer through 4 days of awkward silence. I would say about five out of 10 old white captains want to talk about Christian politics and how anti-gay anti-black anti-anything other than them they are. Like I sad, it's a dying breed, and good riddance.
We are all riding the prosperity way of post World War II. And I think that you failed to realize that if my father had been black, he would've experienced segregation, and thus there is no way he could've supported my flying career.

That is the very definition of privilege

And ffs Stop inferring that I am telling anyone that anybody deserves special privilege, How many times do I have to say that nobody owes anybody anything. Unless you actively were a slave owner, or actively didn't hire someone because they were black, or supported segregation, then you don't owe anybody anything. This is purely the statistical anthropological application of information compared to our cultural diversity. I'm not sure why people take it so personally
I didn't get snared in anything. Everyone knows that being born into a family of means is a privileged start to life. That's not the argument. The argument is over calling that "white privilege" even though poor whites obviously missed the benefit. The onus is on you to prove that the difference is because of people's whiteness. You haven't done that. At all.

Privilege exists. "White privilege" is a racist bs term that is counterproductive.

deadseal
10-30-2017, 04:38 PM
I didn't get snared in anything. Everyone knows that being born into a family of means is a privileged start to life. That's not the argument. The argument is over calling that "white privilege" even though poor whites obviously missed the benefit. The onus is on you to prove that the difference is because of people's whiteness. You haven't done that. At all.

Privilege exists. "White privilege" is a racist bs term that is counterproductive.

If your parents were black during segregation do you think you'd have the same standard of living right now?

Peacock
10-30-2017, 05:42 PM
If your parents were black during segregation do you think you'd have the same standard of living right now?
That probably wouldn't have helped, but it's impossible to know. Public school, state university, military, major airline isn't exactly prohibited path for a physically able, capable, driven person. We can play the what if game all day though. What my parents were abusive or drug addicts or criminals or I was born with a disability? White privilege.

busdriver12
10-30-2017, 08:07 PM
The difference between my experience and those of many women and minorities is that I had tough competition with all the other 95% privileged white guys in line and didn't have the scholarships or EEOC mandated quotas to get me preferential hiring. I also struggled with all the nay-Sayers that told me I wasn't the right pedigree (military, connected, right college) to be an airline pilot. I know many pilots that struggled like I did.

Okay, now that's kind of funny. You have tough competition with 95% of the other "privileged white guys"? You realize that the odds are ever in your favor, right? Did it ever occur to you that many minorities and women do not get scholarships and are not hired because of EEOC mandated quotas? That maybe they are competitive on their own merits?

I never understand why people begrudge the tiny percentage of hiring going to those of different colors or different sex. They really aren't taking all of the slots, there just aren't enough of them. And the vast majority of them are just as qualified as you are, or more so. The fact that there are some targeted scholarships that a small number get, so what?

busdriver12
10-30-2017, 08:12 PM
That probably wouldn't have helped, but it's impossible to know. Public school, state university, military, major airline isn't exactly prohibited path for a physically able, capable, driven person. We can play the what if game all day though. What my parents were abusive or drug addicts or criminals or I was born with a disability? White privilege.

White privilege is a term that does irritate me. People have all sorts of barriers and issues that you can't tell based upon the color of their skin. Mental, physical issues, family background, depression, abuse, addiction.

C130driver
10-31-2017, 01:05 AM
Well worth the time to watch every word.

My question is: when we see a statement like that, do we think it is, or should be, directed at only white males? Is that the only target audience for this message.

Obviously! Only white males can be racist! Anyone else appearing to be racist is just lashing out after years of “persecution”!!

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 02:25 AM
That probably wouldn't have helped, but it's impossible to know. Public school, state university, military, major airline isn't exactly prohibited path for a physically able, capable, driven person. We can play the what if game all day though. What my parents were abusive or drug addicts or criminals or I was born with a disability? White privilege.

My parents were and I made it. However, I was not typical in that 2 out 4 of my grandparents had college degrees. If you think back to all new hire classes you've been in, I imagine they are still 95-100% white male. Mine were, and every minority in every class I was in was just as qualified as every White male. I guess I'm saying I like your odds better than 5-0%.

And again, Black folks do not stop being Black after we fill out the application, finish the interview or set the parking brake. We are black in stores, car dealerships, golf courses, country clubs, FBOs and any other myriad of places where it is not always a sight for a Black person to show up.

Cheers

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 02:30 AM
Okay, now that's kind of funny. You have tough competition with 95% of the other "privileged white guys"? You realize that the odds are ever in your favor, right? Did it ever occur to you that many minorities and women do not get scholarships and are not hired because of EEOC mandated quotas? That maybe they are competitive on their own merits?

I never understand why people begrudge the tiny percentage of hiring going to those of different colors or different sex. They really aren't taking all of the slots, there just aren't enough of them. And the vast majority of them are just as qualified as you are, or more so. The fact that there are some targeted scholarships that a small number get, so what?

THIS!! How is 95%of all jobs not enough of a head start? I mean damn. I know a lot of guys hate the term privilege but how can you be upset when you get 95% of the jobs out there. If not privilege lets call it entitlement. I mean do you have to take 100% of everything good?

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 02:40 AM
Are you the United 787 pilot who posts those photos on Instagram? If so those are great pictures you're posting.

No. I try to stay off social media except to follow my kids accounts.

Cheers

Rahlifer
10-31-2017, 04:07 AM
Although surely I'm seen as a white privileged male when I walk through the airport, it would be prejudice to say that. But it's ok to prejudge because I'm white.

I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, fatherless, dropped out of high school. Sound familiar? After bouncing job to job I ended up throwing bags for a crappy airport contractor. When I learned what pilots made I didn't complain or begrudge them, I decided I would become one. Took a while (forever) as I had to save up for every hour (poor credit) but rating after rating I got closer. I finished HS (GED) went to community college, then got my BA (communications major; easy A, hot chicks). CFI'd--regional -major and loving life.

The difference between my experience and those of many women and minorities is that I had tough competition with all the other 95% privileged white guys in line and didn't have the scholarships or EEOC mandated quotas to get me preferential hiring. I also struggled with all the nay-Sayers that told me I wasn't the right pedigree (military, connected, right college) to be an airline pilot. I know many pilots that struggled like I did.

I could have easily used my background and environment as an excuse, but being a rich white kid, who would listen?

Hats off to the ones that make it, minority or not, but we need to stop assuming all white guys had it easy and women and minorities need hand outs. Like the white males, they are perfectly capable on their own.

Question: wouldn't "white privilege" also apply to white women? Were they underprivileged? Why the special scholarships, EEOC mandates, type ratings, internships etc?

Final note: I didn't pass along my upbringing and poverty. It's not a sentence. My fourth kid graduates from college this spring ($$Thank GOD). Smarter than me, they learned from my mistakes and never became pilots.

You obviously had some hurdles to overcome on your career path, but white privilege still gave you a leg up. A minority child in the exact same circumstances would have automatically been given a couple felony convictions before hitting puberty over trivial things that we whites get away with. I did more than my fair share of stupid stuff as a kid/teenager that would have been more harshly punished if my skin was darker. That would have easily derailed any chances of having a meaningful job. The whole thing about white privilege is the value of the countless intangibles that shape ones life. How many teachers over the years maybe gave me a higher grade than I really deserved, just because I looked like a clean cut kid? I can walk around any store without being followed by security. I’ve never feared for my life during a traffic stop. Thousands of little things are what add up to my white privilege.

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 05:47 AM
You obviously had some hurdles to overcome on your career path, but white privilege still gave you a leg up. A minority child in the exact same circumstances would have automatically been given a couple felony convictions before hitting puberty over trivial things that we whites get away with. I did more than my fair share of stupid stuff as a kid/teenager that would have been more harshly punished if my skin was darker. That would have easily derailed any chances of having a meaningful job. The whole thing about white privilege is the value of the countless intangibles that shape ones life. How many teachers over the years maybe gave me a higher grade than I really deserved, just because I looked like a clean cut kid? I can walk around any store without being followed by security. I’ve never feared for my life during a traffic stop. Thousands of little things are what add up to my white privilege.

None of what you posted is fact, it is a perception not based in reality. There is nothing that backs up that line of thinking and remember more whitenpeole are killed in traffic stop by police than all other races combined.

Once again it does nit exist.

Unpilot
10-31-2017, 05:54 AM
You obviously had some hurdles to overcome on your career path, but white privilege still gave you a leg up. A minority child in the exact same circumstances would have automatically been given a couple felony convictions before hitting puberty over trivial things that we whites get away with. I did more than my fair share of stupid stuff as a kid/teenager that would have been more harshly punished if my skin was darker. That would have easily derailed any chances of having a meaningful job. The whole thing about white privilege is the value of the countless intangibles that shape ones life. How many teachers over the years maybe gave me a higher grade than I really deserved, just because I looked like a clean cut kid? I can walk around any store without being followed by security. I’ve never feared for my life during a traffic stop. Thousands of little things are what add up to my white privilege.


This is one of the better and more thoughtful post's on here. I remember being a stupid young man on more than one occasion.Got pulled over after a few beers...cop tells me to go home and if he sees me out again he will arrest me. Now would the same happen if I was black? No way to know but when you look at the difference in sentences given to black VS whites and the resulting higher incarceration rates. Well it is easy to see something is going on..privilege...discrimination...maybe.

The term white privilege is not a good one I believe because it is a lightning rod for all who want to use it as such.

The talk of culture being a reason is problematic also. What exactly does one mean when using that term as a reason for not getting ahead?

Unpilot
10-31-2017, 05:57 AM
None of what you posted is fact, it is a perception not based in reality. There is nothing that backs up that line of thinking and remember more whitenpeole are killed in traffic stop by police than all other races combined.

Once again it does nit exist.
There are tons of research to refute your stance

Employers' Replies to Racial Names (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html)

And it it spelled not as in "Once again it does not exist"

deadseal
10-31-2017, 06:06 AM
None of what you posted is fact, it is a perception not based in reality. There is nothing that backs up that line of thinking and remember more whitenpeole are killed in traffic stop by police than all other races combined.

Once again it does nit exist.

You should learn how to spell before you embarrass yourself.

See? See how dumb that comment is?

I believe that you are confusing the issue. You feel that people are saying that you owe somebody something for being white? Or you are getting special treatment for being white on a day to day basis?
Well if you won't take a mans word on the situation as he EXPERIENCED it, then I kindly say you are stuffing your head in the sand.
I'll reiterate 2 points
1) peacock made my point for me by saying growing up middle class is a privilege, more white people are middle class, thus by mathematical fact you are statistically proven to be privileged if you are born white.
2) saying that someone who's parents grew up stuck in segregation wouldn't statistically effect their ability to garner wealth for their families is purely moronic and falls in line with the head in the sand

Life is not Disneyland, but if you need to build your own narrative to fill that black void creeping into your soul as you watch the fall of white male supremacy then have it. It'll be fun to watch your cranium explode when we get the first female gay minority president.

I bet you still believe that trump didn't collude with the Russians!
I keed, I keed

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 06:14 AM
None of what you posted is fact, it is a perception not based in reality. There is nothing that backs up that line of thinking and remember more whitenpeole are killed in traffic stop by police than all other races combined.

Once again it does nit exist.


These things do happen. Reference my post a few pages back about my mom's experience as a guidance counselor in a DOD High school in an honors class. This stuff does happen. It happens to me and I am definitely privileged.

Cheers

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 06:19 AM
You should learn how to spell before you embarrass yourself.

See? See how dumb that comment is?

I believe that you are confusing the issue. You feel that people are saying that you owe somebody something for being white? Or you are getting special treatment for being white on a day to day basis?
Well if you won't take a mans word on the situation as he EXPERIENCED it, then I kindly say you are stuffing your head in the sand.
I'll reiterate 2 points
1) peacock made my point for me by saying growing up middle class is a privilege, more white people are middle class, thus by mathematical fact you are statistically proven to be privileged if you are born white.
2) saying that someone who's parents grew up stuck in segregation wouldn't statistically effect their ability to garner wealth for their families is purely moronic and falls in line with the head in the sand

Life is not Disneyland, but if you need to build your own narrative to fill that black void creeping into your soul as you watch the fall of white male supremacy then have it. It'll be fun to watch your cranium explode when we get the first female gay minority president.

I bet you still believe that trump didn't collude with the Russians!
I keed, I keed

You couldn't even spell privilege a word you were spamming over and over again. I called you out on it.

Second you have been going around in circles about this nonsense for pages now. People have repeatedly disproven the concept you are pushing using anicdotal evidence as "proof" that there is some so-called white privilege. When the current laws and stats show that this is not the case.

Class is not racial anyone can be middle-class and anyone can become middle-class. That is not a privilege that is earned.

I don't need to create a narrative I live in reality and in reality there is obviously no such thing as white privilege or supremacy or wherever buzzwords you use. I can tune out the college kids and "activists" pushing thing stuff, unlike them who have made this their cause du jour. Next year it will be something else.

Unpilot
10-31-2017, 06:25 AM
"Next year it will be some else."

What does this mean?

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 06:26 AM
. I remember being a stupid young man on more than one occasion.Got pulled over after a few beers...cop tells me to go home and if he sees me out again he will arrest me. Now would the same happen if I was black?

The talk of culture being a reason is problematic also. What exactly does one mean when using that term as a reason for not getting ahead?

How so you know that? You don't, that's a false narrative you are creating.

And culture is the reason for almost 90% of the problems. Single family homes, drug culture and belief that education is worthless. That is all cultural.

"Next year it will be some else."

What does this mean?

It means next year there will be some new "cause" to get outraged about.

It happens to me and I am definitely privileged.

Cheers

Hard work and accomplishepments are not privilege.

Unpilot
10-31-2017, 06:38 AM
How so you know that? You don't, that's a false narrative you are creating.

And culture is the reason for almost 90% of the problems. Single family homes, drug culture and belief that education is worthless. That is all cultural.



It means next year there will be some new "cause" to get outraged about.



Hard work and accomplishepments are not privilege.

If you are going to cut and past stuff please put use all the info.
Here is what I said

"Now would the same happen if I was black? No way to know but when you look at the difference in sentences given to black VS whites and the resulting higher incarceration rates. Well it is easy to see something is going on..privilege...discrimination...maybe."

So you do not like blanket statements such as white privilege yet resort to blanket statements such as certain (I wonder what ones) cultures as believing .."belief that education is worthless."

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 06:44 AM
If you are going to cut and past stuff please put use all the info.
Here is what I said

"Now would the same happen if I was black? No way to know but when you look at the difference in sentences given to black VS whites and the resulting higher incarceration rates. Well it is easy to see something is going on..privilege...discrimination...maybe."

So you do not like blanket statements such as white privilege yet resort to blanket statements such as certain (I wonder what ones) cultures as believing .."belief that education is worthless."

The differences in sentences are caused by prior convictions and by other charges associated with concurrent charges. If you've already been convicted of a crime prior to a charge you will serve more time, that is not a race issue.

With regards to culture it's not a blanket statement, its true. "Thug culture" does believe education is worthless and it glamorizes crime and drugs. It promotes anger against the police and whites.

Peacock
10-31-2017, 06:45 AM
peacock made my point for me by saying growing up middle class is a privilege, more white people are middle class, thus by mathematical fact you are statistically proven to be privileged if you are born white.
2) saying that someone who's parents grew up stuck in segregation wouldn't statistically effect their ability to garner wealth for their families is purely moronic and falls in line with the head in the sand


You're still lost. When I pointed out earlier that correlation does not equal causation, you agreed. It's becoming increasingly obvious that you don't know what that means. Yes, whites are wealthier on average. No, that doesn't prove that being white gets you more money. I can't explain it more simply than that.

Please explain to poor whites how they missed out on their white privilege bonus check.

Unpilot
10-31-2017, 06:58 AM
The differences in sentences are caused by prior convictions and by other charges associated with concurrent charges. If you've already been convicted of a crime prior to a charge you will serve more time, that is not a race issue.

With regards to culture it's not a blanket statement, its true. "Thug culture" does believe education is worthless and it glamorizes crime and drugs. It promotes anger against the police and whites.


If a black person listens to rap music and wears a hoodie is he a thug?

Is it possible that a black person is stopped more often to receive those prior convictions?

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 07:15 AM
I didn't get snared in anything. Everyone knows that being born into a family of means is a privileged start to life. That's not the argument. The argument is over calling that "white privilege" even though poor whites obviously missed the benefit. The onus is on you to prove that the difference is because of people's whiteness. You haven't done that. At all.

Privilege exists. "White privilege" is a racist bs term that is counterproductive.

What if a black person is born into a family of means? Are they too privileged?

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 07:16 AM
If a black person listens to rap music and wears a hoodie is he a thug?

Is it possible that a black person is stopped more often to receive those prior convictions?

There is a culture that enables it.

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 07:17 AM
Obviously! Only white males can be racist! Anyone else appearing to be racist is just lashing out after years of “persecution”!!That's what I've been told in the past. Nice username sir!

Peacock
10-31-2017, 07:18 AM
What if a black person is born into a family of means? Are they too privileged?
Of course.

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 07:20 AM
No. I try to stay off social media except to follow my kids accounts.

CheersUnderstood sir. My reason for asking was to compliment your photos and to ask you to keep it up. I gathered you might have been as he posted pictures with a stuffed animal in the cockpit and you said you took pictures of a stuffed animal in the cockpit. My apologies for the incorrect assumption.

casual observer
10-31-2017, 07:23 AM
The problem with the idea of white privilege might be a marketing problem. Here's why:

If I'm a white guy, I can't just use the justification that I have free speech and good intentions enough that I should be able to use the 'N' word in certain context. The fact that the 'N' word is offensive to most black people is enough for us as a society to decide not to use it or condone it.

So, in that instance, it is not what the white guy thinks is important, it is the idea that word is offensive to black people that overrides in the decision about it's permissibility.

Mostly liberals want to make the case that systemic inequities based in race should be addressed to make society better. That's an idea that is plausible and should be able to get enough support and attention to make improvements.

The problem is how the idea is being communicated. Whether liberals understand it or not, the term 'white privilege' is derogatory to white conservatives. Privilege is being used to suggest entitlement, unearned status, and unfair advantage. Those are negative attributes that diminish any accomplishment of the people that are being generalized by it. And because it's based on race - it is also bigoted. You would not, for example, use the term 'black' followed by something derogatory. That would be bigoted.

Furthermore, whether it's intended of not, the term 'white privilege' is perceived by white conservatives as a microagression. It is a way for liberals or people of color to denigrate them under the guise they are promoting social consciousness.

Again, just like the use of the 'N' word, it doesn't really matter how the people that want to use it feel about it or want to justify it. The idea that the term is offensive to white conservatives should be enough to discontinue it's use, it the left truly wants it considered.

That does not suggest the idea should be abandoned. My suggestion is to reframe it so it's less divisive and more open to discussion.

Instead of focusing on the privilege of white people (which is divisive and bigoted) focus on the difficulty faced by people that liberals feel are disadvantaged.

'Black struggle'? 'People of Challenge'? I don't know what term would be acceptable for liberals that want to make the case. I do know that continuing to sell this message in divisive and bigoted terms will not work.

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 07:23 AM
There are tons of research to refute your stance

Employers' Replies to Racial Names (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html)

And it it spelled not as in "Once again it does not exist"I worked as a manager for at&t and I can tell you that I was told by my market's recruiter that the system sorts job candidates based off of how they answer the demographics questions and if their name is ethnic. I'm just relaying what someone in the know told me.

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 07:25 AM
These things do happen. Reference my post a few pages back about my mom's experience as a guidance counselor in a DOD High school in an honors class. This stuff does happen. It happens to me and I am definitely privileged.

CheersI graduated from a DODDS school. Just out of curiosity what school did she work at?

deadseal
10-31-2017, 07:38 AM
You couldn't even spell privilege a word you were spamming over and over again. I called you out on it.

Second you have been going around in circles about this nonsense for pages now. People have repeatedly disproven the concept you are pushing using anicdotal evidence as "proof" that there is some so-called white privilege. When the current laws and stats show that this is not the case.

Class is not racial anyone can be middle-class and anyone can become middle-class. That is not a privilege that is earned.

I don't need to create a narrative I live in reality and in reality there is obviously no such thing as white privilege or supremacy or wherever buzzwords you use. I can tune out the college kids and "activists" pushing thing stuff, unlike them who have made this their cause du jour. Next year it will be something else.

Ever heard of a comma? Man, you should check your grammar before you embarrass yourself. 😝

Sorry I'm trolling now.

Ok, I would argue that the culture that you state is keeping black folks from collectively getting their feet under them, is derived from lack of education(slavery/jimC), broken families(slavery/jimC), and possibly no respect for their immediate environment(slavery/JimC).
Now does this mean that anyone is absolved of personal responsibility? Of course not.
But YOU were not born black, and YOU have no clue what it's like! And when a prosperous black man gets on here and tells you the way it was for him, you just disregard it!
Blinders bruh. Take off your blinders

And for the dudes that say"but there are poor white folk! And there are rich black folk!" Of course there are captain obvious, but statistically(you know that math thing that tracks a lot of data and throws it on a curve which I hated in community college) states, unequivocally, that if you are born white you have a higher probability of having wealth. This translates to education etc etc

That is the statistical privilege of being born white. It's not a question it's math dude, period

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 07:48 AM
Understood sir. My reason for asking was to compliment your photos and to ask you to keep it up. I gathered you might have been as he posted pictures with a stuffed animal in the cockpit and you said you took pictures of a stuffed animal in the cockpit. My apologies for the incorrect assumption.

No prob! Perhaps I was a bit short with my answer. Purely unintentional. I try to stay off the internet for no other reason than probably old man syndrome. Take it easy.

KSwift

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 07:51 AM
I graduated from a DODDS school. Just out of curiosity what school did she work at?

I will say it was in Central Germany.

Slaphappy
10-31-2017, 08:00 AM
Ok, I would argue that the culture that you state is keeping black folks from collectively getting their feet under them, is derived from lack of education(slavery/jimC), broken families(slavery/jimC), and possibly no respect for their immediate environment(slavery/JimC).


That is the statistical privilege of being born white. It's not a question it's math dude, period

And I would say that is a weak excuse. Slavery has been gone for 150 years and jim crow hasn't had an effect in over a generation.

This issues are gone and history.

You keep saying something is statisticlly true but that is not true.

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 08:01 AM
The problem with the idea of white privilege might be a marketing problem. Here's why:

If I'm a white guy, I can't just use the justification that I have free speech and good intentions enough that I should be able to use the 'N' word in certain context. The fact that the 'N' word is offensive to most black people is enough for us as a society to decide not to use it or condone it.

So, in that instance, it is not what the white guy thinks is important, it is the idea that word is offensive to black people that overrides in the decision about it's permissibility.

Mostly liberals want to make the case that systemic inequities based in race should be addressed to make society better. That's an idea that is plausible and should be able to get enough support and attention to make improvements.

The problem is how the idea is being communicated. Whether liberals understand it or not, the term 'white privilege' is derogatory to white conservatives. Privilege is being used to suggest entitlement, unearned status, and unfair advantage. Those are negative attributes that diminish any accomplishment of the people that are being generalized by it. And because it's based on race - it is also bigoted. You would not, for example, use the term 'black' followed by something derogatory. That would be bigoted.

Furthermore, whether it's intended of not, the term 'white privilege' is perceived by white conservatives as a microagression. It is a way for liberals or people of color to denigrate them under the guise they are promoting social consciousness.

Again, just like the use of the 'N' word, it doesn't really matter how the people that want to use it feel about it or want to justify it. The idea that the term is offensive to white conservatives should be enough to discontinue it's use, it the left truly wants it considered.

That does not suggest the idea should be abandoned. My suggestion is to reframe it so it's less divisive and more open to discussion.

Instead of focusing on the privilege of white people (which is divisive and bigoted) focus on the difficulty faced by people that liberals feel are disadvantaged.

'Black struggle'? 'People of Challenge'? I don't know what term would be acceptable for liberals that want to make the case. I do know that continuing to sell this message in divisive and bigoted terms will not work.

Very thoughtful post. Makes me go hhmmm. Howeve..., its hard for the battered wife to worry about the husband's cuffs being too tight when the cops show up if you know what I'm saying But I hear ya! Gotta keep talking about it if we want to grow as a society. And for the gentleman who is correcting everyone's grammar and spelling. I know "gotta" is not a word!😁✈️ I'm a pilot not a writer or English teacher and I'm typing on a phone.

Cheers

casual observer
10-31-2017, 08:03 AM
Why is it 'Black Lives Matter' when it is 10 times more likely per capita for a white male to be killed by police than it is for a black female?

ItnStln
10-31-2017, 08:30 AM
I will say it was in Central Germany.As was the one I graduated from. I had good guidance counselors when I was there.

tyler durden
10-31-2017, 08:41 AM
You obviously had some hurdles to overcome on your career path, but white privilege still gave you a leg up. A minority child in the exact same circumstances would have automatically been given a couple felony convictions before hitting puberty over trivial things that we whites get away with. I did more than my fair share of stupid stuff as a kid/teenager that would have been more harshly punished if my skin was darker. That would have easily derailed any chances of having a meaningful job. The whole thing about white privilege is the value of the countless intangibles that shape ones life. How many teachers over the years maybe gave me a higher grade than I really deserved, just because I looked like a clean cut kid? I can walk around any store without being followed by security. I’ve never feared for my life during a traffic stop. Thousands of little things are what add up to my white privilege.

So, none of my "white privilege's friends" were ever convicted of a felony? That is a convenient but very tired argument. Teachers gave you a better grade because you were clean-cut and white? I would say the opposite is just as likely to be true, but if we are talking education, why not discuss facts like institutionalized discrimination practiced under the banner of affirmative action?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/us/supreme-court-michigan-affirmative-action-ban.html?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO8xzfpvhZetkAL49x.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXV uBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1509496672/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2014%2f04%2f23% 2fus%2fsupreme-court-michigan-affirmative-action-ban.html/RK=1/RS=UqyZ1J3Vc7xCXj3OZARuP_N_8Go-

tyler durden
10-31-2017, 08:48 AM
This is one of the better and more thoughtful post's on here. I remember being a stupid young man on more than one occasion.Got pulled over after a few beers...cop tells me to go home and if he sees me out again he will arrest me. Now would the same happen if I was black? No way to know but when you look at the difference in sentences given to black VS whites and the resulting higher incarceration rates. Well it is easy to see something is going on..privilege...discrimination...maybe.

The term white privilege is not a good one I believe because it is a lightning rod for all who want to use it as such.

The talk of culture being a reason is problematic also. What exactly does one mean when using that term as a reason for not getting ahead?

Does the same not apply if a 'privileged white kid' is pulled over by a black police officer?

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 09:04 AM
Does the same not apply if a 'privileged white kid' is pulled over by a black police officer?

Would be curious about the outcome/outrage if that encounter and subsequent shooting were caught on tape and then said officer was acquitted of all charges. What do you think the outcome would be?

Hell we had a Black kid beat up a white guy who was following him, then got shot and most guys I flew with felt it was justified because he didn't look like the "sweet little kid" the media was showing of him. Not trying to bring up old issues, but several guys I work with thought it was okay. It's not okay.

My 15 yr. old son is not small, wears hoodies and listens to rap music (as do I ) and it's not okay for any of you to question him if he's walking down the street in our neighborhood minding his business, whether there have been recent break ins or not. It is not okay.

Peacock
10-31-2017, 09:08 AM
Would be curious about the outcome/outrage if that encounter and subsequent shooting were caught on tape and then said officer was acquitted of all charges. What do you think the outcome would be?

Hell we had a Black kid beat up a white guy who was following him, then got shot and most guys I flew with felt it was justified because he didn't look like the "sweet little kid" the media was showing of him. Not trying to bring up old issues, but several guys I work with thought it was okay. It's not okay.

My 15 yr. old son is not small, wears hoodies and listens to rap music (as do I ) and it's not okay for any of you to question him if he's walking down the street in our neighborhood minding his business, whether there have been recent break ins or not. It is not okay.

If you don't beat up strangers your odds of getting shot go down.

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 09:14 AM
If you don't beat up strangers your odds of getting shot go down.

If you don't follow strangers, your odds of getting beat up go down too.

tyler durden
10-31-2017, 09:17 AM
Okay, now that's kind of funny. You have tough competition with 95% of the other "privileged white guys"? You realize that the odds are ever in your favor, right? Did it ever occur to you that many minorities and women do not get scholarships and are not hired because of EEOC mandated quotas? That maybe they are competitive on their own merits?

I never understand why people begrudge the tiny percentage of hiring going to those of different colors or different sex. They really aren't taking all of the slots, there just aren't enough of them. And the vast majority of them are just as qualified as you are, or more so. The fact that there are some targeted scholarships that a small number get, so what?

Hopefully this will help answer your question:

In a motion filed with Senior U.S. District Court Judge Hubert F. Will, the EEOC charged that United failed to hire minority and female pilots at twice the percentage of qualified applicants, as it had agreed to do in 1976.

An EEOC spokesman said that if 10 percent of pilot applicants in a given year were women, United had agreed that 20 percent of the applicants hired would be women.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minorities

A United spokesman, Joe Hopkins, said in 1987 that the company had begun complying with the requirements of the court decree in that year, and had been hampered before that by intense demand among all airlines for minority and women pilots.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-05-20/business/9405200384_1_entry-level-pilots-women-pilots-united-airlines

Not sure how I can make it any clearer but I'll try. If you were in a pool of candidates, would you want to be in the "average" pile that represents the 95% white male or would you want to be in the 5% 'special' (privileged?) pile that, by law, MUST get hired at twice the rate of their white male counterparts?

You don't believe this to be unfair? How bout illegal? Unethical? Racist/sexist? Why should KSwift, an African-American brought up in a successful household with educated parents be accorded legally enhanced status over an under privileged white male...because of the color of his skin? I believe there is a name for that behavior.

What about white females? Aren't they equally likely to come from a "privileged" household then their white male counterparts?

If, as you claim, they are just as qualified as their white male counterparts, why does the law stipulate they are hired at twice the rate? Why the special scholarships, internships, quotas?

Discrimination: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex

Peacock
10-31-2017, 09:18 AM
If you don't follow strangers, your odds of getting beat up go down too.
One of those things is against the law

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 09:26 AM
One of those things is against the law

Doesn't make it right. If I thought hard enough I'm sure I could name several things that are legal but not right...like shredding a company's pension plan in bankruptcy then leaving with millions of dollars. Not illegal, but also not right. Curious how you would react if I were following your son around and questioning him? I suspect you would not be thrilled.

Peacock
10-31-2017, 09:29 AM
Doesn't make it right. If I thought hard enough I'm sure I could name several things that are legal but not right...like shredding a company's pension plan in bankruptcy then leaving with millions of dollars. Not illegal, but also not right. Curious how you would react if I were following your son around and questioning him? I suspect you would not be thrilled.
I think Zimmerman is a creep. I think it was tragic. It was also the correct result legally. Don't attack people.

deadseal
10-31-2017, 09:36 AM
And I would say that is a weak excuse. Slavery has been gone for 150 years and jim crow hasn't had an effect in over a generation.

This issues are gone and history.

You keep saying something is statisticlly true but that is not true.

Ummm whites have a crap ton more wealth than blacks.....how is that not true? Please explain precisely


And they are not history at all, in the slightest, in the least bit.....
Your parents would have been segregated from whites, that is one generation
Why don't you ask 70 year old southern black folk if those issues are gone.
Your childish inability to separate your feelings from facts are quite entertaining

KSwift76
10-31-2017, 09:47 AM
I think Zimmerman is a creep. I think it was tragic. It was also the correct result legally. Don't attack people.

Legal or not, how do you think it would have played out had the situation been reversed. You think there would have been been an acquittal? I don't. Which speaks to how we are perceived differently based purely on how we look which speaks to all of the examples I have tried to illustrate in this thread. You're right. It is tragic.

Floobs
10-31-2017, 10:14 AM
If you don't follow strangers, your odds of getting beat up go down too.

He went home and came back out looking for him and once he found him he assaulted him. It is pretty clear it was 100% justified and probably should have never gone to court.

Legal or not, how do you think it would have played out had the situation been reversed. You think there would have been been an acquittal? I don't. Which speaks to how we are perceived differently based purely on how we look which speaks to all of the examples I have tried to illustrate in this thread. You're right. It is tragic.

Probably would have gotten zero press, much like the police shootings of white people you never ever hear about despite the fact that they are killed more than everyone else combined.

Peacock
10-31-2017, 10:21 AM
Legal or not, how do you think it would have played out had the situation been reversed. You think there would have been been an acquittal? I don't. Which speaks to how we are perceived differently based purely on how we look which speaks to all of the examples I have tried to illustrate in this thread. You're right. It is tragic.

If it was reversed it would have been a story about a black kid killing a Hispanic dude, even though he was named Zimmerman. Do not pass go, do not collect white privilege.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1