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NeverSayNever
10-16-2017, 06:11 PM
Three years ago I was pulled over for supposed loud music violation. I submitted to a field sobriety test, which I thought I passed but the officers, eight in total still wanted a breathalyzer test. They pulled out one, then another officer said they should use the one in his trunk. I was fully cooperating but these officers were just looking for a reason too haul me in. I politely asked to do a blood draw, while not refusing anything. They were not happy about this. Fast forward a few months, I'm not a lawyer so I hired one. The lawyer was able to get all the charges dropped because the stop was unconstitutional.

In the preceding three years, I have reported the incident as required by the FAA on each medical application. Yeah, I was arrested but was not convicted of anything and I don't have a DUI on my record. But that doesn't seem to matter to the FAA. A couple months ago they revisited the issue and asked for all the information pertaining to the case. I submitted that info, and a couple months later they asked why there was not a BAC test report. Well that information was never submitted to the court and my lawyer never received it either, because the case was dismissed before it was ever submitted. I called the FAA and told them the situation and asked if a written letter from my lawyer pertaining to the situation would be sufficient. The answer was yes and I did so. Last week I received another letter from the FAA saying that the letter was appreciated but insufficient and now they want my to do a HIMS evaluation. It seems as if they have gone to the full investigation mode on a charge that was fully dropped three years ago and in which I learned a valuable lesson.

I have contacted Dr. Chien who is FAA HIMS familiar and he is looking into the situation, but my question is: Have any of you other aviators had to deal with the FAA after a charge has been dismissed. I'm wondering if the FAA has the legal power to pursue an investigation for a charge that doesn't legally exist anymore. Anyone that has an insight into this situation and could provide some advice, would be greatly appreciated.


SonicFlyer
10-16-2017, 09:57 PM
Well first rule is don't talk to cops, they aren't your friends.

USMCFLYR
10-17-2017, 03:20 AM
"Three years ago I was pulled over for supposed loud music violation....The lawyer was able to get all the charges dropped because the stop was unconstitutional.
This part is interesting. The lawyer is actually saying that a 'loud music' ordinance is unconstitutional?

If so....keep that guy on retainer because he is better than 'Better Call Saul'!


JohnBurke
10-17-2017, 11:31 AM
Well first rule is don't talk to cops, they aren't your friends.

The second rule of fight club is dont talk to the FAA without your qualified attorney in the loop. Anything you say is gathered for one reason only, and it's not to use on your behalf.

rickair7777
10-17-2017, 11:32 AM
Criminal (or most civil) law protections are not relevant to FAA aeromedical, they are not conducting an "investigation". They are ADMINISTRATIVELY evaluating your ability to safely exercise the PRIVILEGE afforded by your ATP. Very few "rights" involved in that.

So there is utterly no proceedings or process which will "undo" their intent to evaluate your addiction/abuse status. You cannot get off on a technicality with aeromedical. With PBR you might possibly be able to do that on the enforcement side, but not medical.

One trigger for substance concerns with the FAA is an arrest and/or charges, no conviction required (they know that convictions are commonly dodged with legal technicalities or plea deals, which of course does nothing about any underlying addiction issues).

You need to understand that so you know where you stand.

That said, the real problem here is probably lack of BAC info (they don't have visibility on investigation details since there was no trial). If it was a 0.03 they would would probably just close the case. But they may suspect the actual number was much higher, and that you're withholding the info from them. In which case they'll assume the worst (ie severely impaired but not prosecuted for technical reasons), and throw the medical book at you. If you can get access to a BAC showing you well under DUI limits, that would likely make this go away.

The good news... if you can pass the HIMS stuff, they probably won't have grounds to deny a medical, without actual evidence of impairment.

Again, they are not interfering with your (non-existent) "right" to fly, they are evaluating your ability to safely exercise the privileges of your certificate.

jonnyjetprop
10-17-2017, 12:56 PM
This part is interesting. The lawyer is actually saying that a 'loud music' ordinance is unconstitutional?

If so....keep that guy on retainer because he is better than 'Better Call Saul'!

My guess would be that there was a demonstrated pattern of the police using minor traffic infractions as a rouse to check for drunk drivers. It happens all around the country.

USMCFLYR
10-17-2017, 03:31 PM
My guess would be that there was a demonstrated pattern of the police using minor traffic infractions as a rouse to check for drunk drivers. It happens all around the country.

Heck they don't need that, they can can just throw up a DUI checkpoint if they want to target DUIs.

LEOs use all sorts of incidents to stop and then snoop a little more for something's by more, especially in certain high probability areas (like anywhere along I-95 - America's drug high way)

In any case, if there is a 'Loud Noise' ordinance, the stop is unconstitutional.

Twin Wasp
10-17-2017, 08:54 PM
Heck they don't need that, they can can just throw up a DUI checkpoint if they want to target DUIs.

In several states DUI checkpoints are illegal.

JohnBurke
10-17-2017, 09:15 PM
Whether the checkpoint was illegal is really irrelevant at this point.

F224
10-22-2017, 11:45 AM
Criminal (or most civil) law protections are not relevant to FAA aeromedical, they are not conducting an "investigation". They are ADMINISTRATIVELY evaluating your ability to safely exercise the PRIVILEGE afforded by your ATP. Very few "rights" involved in that.

So there is utterly no proceedings or process which will "undo" their intent to evaluate your addiction/abuse status. You cannot get off on a technicality with aeromedical. With PBR you might possibly be able to do that on the enforcement side, but not medical.

One trigger for substance concerns with the FAA is an arrest and/or charges, no conviction required (they know that convictions are commonly dodged with legal technicalities or plea deals, which of course does nothing about any underlying addiction issues).

You need to understand that so you know where you stand.

That said, the real problem here is probably lack of BAC info (they don't have visibility on investigation details since there was no trial). If it was a 0.03 they would would probably just close the case. But they may suspect the actual number was much higher, and that you're withholding the info from them. In which case they'll assume the worst (ie severely impaired but not prosecuted for technical reasons), and throw the medical book at you. If you can get access to a BAC showing you well under DUI limits, that would likely make this go away.

The good news... if you can pass the HIMS stuff, they probably won't have grounds to deny a medical, without actual evidence of impairment.

Again, they are not interfering with your (non-existent) "right" to fly, they are evaluating your ability to safely exercise the privileges of your certificate.

This is possibly the best explanation I have ever seen regarding the FAA Aeromedical Offices authority. Do the HIMS Evaluation.

MedicalTruth
11-02-2017, 02:16 PM
One trigger for substance concerns with the FAA is an arrest and/or charges, no conviction required.



What if one encounters a dirty cop who knows that they can destroy your career by simply placing "DUI" as the charge, knowing full well it will never result in conviction? But still destroy your career of possible millions in income?

rickair7777
11-02-2017, 02:38 PM
What if one encounters a dirty cop who knows that they can destroy your career by simply placing "DUI" as the charge, knowing full well it will never result in conviction? But still destroy your career of possible millions in income?

Assuming this dirty cop...

a) Knows you're a pilot
b) Knows how FAA medical works (cops generally don't...)
c) Hates your guts

Yeah, that's possible. But as long as BAC is zero or negligible the FAA won't care. Also if the cop's dirty, he'll be looking for a "gratuity"... better pay up.

The grey area for us...

You can get a DUI with < the presumed BAC, if you can be shown to be impaired. If you drive after drinking AT ALL, you could in theory get a DUI well under the local limit if you can't recite the alphabet backwards while hopping on one foot and touching your nose with your eyes shut.

Safest way to roll is don't drink and drive.

MedicalTruth
11-02-2017, 02:46 PM
Yeah, that's possible.

Not only is it possible, but it is happening, as we speak.

The Cop has since been terminated. In fact, the Cop let a kid burn alive in his car.

But hey, the FAA don't care. If a Cop said it, it must be true, right?

you could in theory get a DUI well under the local limit if you can't recite the alphabet backwards while hopping on one foot and touching your nose with your eyes shut.

Clearly you know nothing about a FST.

More to follow.

rickair7777
11-02-2017, 03:45 PM
Clearly you know nothing about a FST.


Depends on local law. Pilots should probably assume the absolute worst case.

MedicalTruth
11-02-2017, 03:46 PM
Safest way to roll is don't drink and drive.

I agree. But you do know that cops can charge you with a DUI any time they want.. .right?

What if you have the keys in your pocket and your car in the parking lot? Without any intention to drive?


You claim "most cops don't know this". But what of the few who do? Local and State Police have the opportunity to ruin your entire life just by putting DUI as a charge. And then sit back and laugh as you spend thousands trying to defend yourself trying to get back in the air.

rickair7777
11-02-2017, 04:30 PM
I agree. But you do know that cops can charge you with a DUI any time they want.. .right?

What if you have the keys in your pocket and your car in the parking lot? Without any intention to drive?


You claim "most cops don't know this". But what of the few who do? Local and State Police have the opportunity to ruin your entire life just by putting DUI as a charge. And then sit back and laugh as you spend thousands trying to defend yourself trying to get back in the air.

Everybody in aviation (and the military) knows that you can get a DUI for possessing keys in proximity to the car, nothing new.

So what happened, care to tell us?

Not sure why a cop would know/care that you're a pilot and want to ruin your life?

USMCFLYR
11-02-2017, 04:52 PM
There is some real black hat stuff going on here.
Hmmmm.....

MedicalTruth
11-02-2017, 05:14 PM
Everybody in aviation (and the military) knows that you can get a DUI for possessing keys in proximity to the car, nothing new.

Everybody? Who? Names?

Now go google "physical control" for your State.



So what happened, care to tell us?

I will, eventually.

Care to tell us the names of "everybody"?

Not sure why a cop would know/care that you're a pilot and want to ruin your life?

A cop will never ruin my life, but one can ruin yours.

SonicFlyer
11-02-2017, 07:20 PM
if you can't recite the alphabet backwards while hopping on one foot and touching your nose with your eyes shut.I can't do that sober, willing to best most others cant either

MedicalTruth
11-02-2017, 07:39 PM
I can't do that sober, willing to best most others cant either

I have a feeling rick was being facetious with that statement.

I hope...

But you're right, if any Cop asks you to do that, ask him/her to do it first.

JohnBurke
11-02-2017, 08:46 PM
Care to tell us the names of "everybody"?



If you don't know, then mathematically the set is simple. Everybody but you.

This carrot-dangling is getting old.

Your inference here is that you know something everyone else doesn't (and you'll only tell it in tiny soundbytes). Enough with the childishness.

What if one encounters a dirty cop who knows that they can destroy your career by simply placing "DUI" as the charge, knowing full well it will never result in conviction? But still destroy your career of possible millions in income?

What if one encounters a dirty cop who shoots first and asks questions later? What if one encounters a dirty cop who pushes drivers off the road and into lakes? What if one encounters a dirty cop who plants evidence? What if, what if, what if?

You can postulate all you want. If the cop is "dirty" and the encounter is weighted and unfair from the outset, then what do you want? You've just become a victim. Are you seeking some kind of balance, fairness, or order here? Life ain't fair, mate. Life happens.

You're making a broad-based assumption that a charge of driving under the influence will destroy a career. This is a poorly informed and inexperienced understanding, and untrue.

Now why don't you come clean and tell the story, or end this can/mouse game?


But you're right, if any Cop asks you to do that, ask him/her to do it first.

Not an option in a field sobriety test. One can, and should, however, document, document, document. If an officer elects to freelance the test outside known standards or common procedures, it's subject to review.

At the time of the stop, however, compliance within the scope of one's rights is in order.

If rights are violated, that will be addressed later, after the stop is completed and paperwork done.

Incontinentius
11-03-2017, 01:19 PM
Everybody in aviation (and the military) knows that you can get a DUI for possessing keys in proximity to the car, nothing new.

So what happened, care to tell us?

Not sure why a cop would know/care that you're a pilot and want to ruin your life?

I am in aviation and I did not know this.

There are plenty of reasons a cop would know/care and want to ruin your life. They also have access to information that pilots generally do not.

JohnBurke
11-03-2017, 02:37 PM
I am in aviation and I did not know this.


Okay. Two of you, then.



There are plenty of reasons a cop would know/care and want to ruin your life. They also have access to information that pilots generally do not.

A police officer does not know that you're a pilot. This is not information returned on criminal history, wants checks, driver registration, or vehicle registration. Do you suppose that a police officer checks at each stop for pilots? Do you think you're important enough for the officer to care?

There are plenty of reasons why an officer would want to know you're a pilot? Afraid you might pull a concealed boeing, or split-s your way out of a traffic stop? Arrest you for chemtrails? Just hates pilots and asks everyone he stops, in the remote off-chance one of them is actually a pilot?

Why do you think the officer might care? Plenty of reasons, you say.

Why would anyone care?

Incontinentius
11-03-2017, 03:06 PM
Okay. Two of you, then.



Do you think you're important enough for the officer to care?

Why do you think the officer might care? Plenty of reasons, you say.

Why would anyone care?

Wrong. I have never been charged with a DUI.

What if you were sleeping with the officers soon to be ex wife? What if you had agreed to meet her at say Dick's sporting goods to start an affair with her? What if her soon to be ex husband had a tag on her vehicle, on her cell, or reading her emails.

Suppose he had an off duty buddy follow the two of you? A private investigator? Its a hypothetical scenario and likely to happen in reality. This doesn't even begin to address potential meddling by a dirt bag employer with access to police or a relative working in the industry.

Think he might care?

badflaps
11-03-2017, 04:14 PM
You will never, never get past the Hogan.

Incontinentius
11-03-2017, 04:17 PM
You will never, never get past the Hogan.

Who is Hogan?

Hogan's Heroes?

and I never did sleep with police officer's wife but she did flirt with me and invited me to meet her at Dicks. She was a high school crush. I got Drunk instead. She had two kids. Kids need a safe environment and a mom and dad who love them. I wasn't her guy.

MedicalTruth
11-03-2017, 04:51 PM
If you don't know, then mathematically the set is simple. Everybody but you.

Well, if "everybody" (including you) thinks that having keys in your pocket while being in close proximity to your car could result in a DUI conviction, you and "everybody" else are wrong. Which is why I recommended to google "physical control" for your State.





What if one encounters a dirty cop who shoots first and asks questions later?Happens all the time. Are you aware of the ongoing protests in this country based on these very events?

You can postulate all you want. If the cop is "dirty" and the encounter is weighted and unfair from the outset, then what do you want? You've just become a victim. Are you seeking some kind of balance, fairness, or order here? Life ain't fair, mate. Life happens.This is why laws are amended or abolished. The latest 18v revision is not only unfair, it is unconstitutional.

In the real world, you can fight a DUI in court, you can challenge a BAC, you can get the charge dismissed.

But in the eyes of the FAA, you're guilty until proven innocent just by what a cop says.

If the breathalyzer is faulty, if the preservatives in the tube were old, if testing was mishandled, this could mean a fine line between being issued a medical, or having to spend thousands of dollars, 2 years of lost income, and jumping through hoops like a good little monkey in a HIMS program.

If you tell a cop you're a pilot (which many pilots do, "But officer, I thought the speed limit was 250 below 10,000... haha!"), and for whatever reason the cop doesn't like you, they can put you in a world of hurt by just placing DUI as the charge.




You're making a broad-based assumption that a charge of driving under the influence will destroy a career.It can, and has.

This is a poorly informed and inexperienced understanding,Someone is poorly informed, but it's not me...

Now why don't you come clean and tell the story, or end this can/mouse game?What is a can/mouse game?



Not an option in a field sobriety test. One can, and should, however, document, document, document. If an officer elects to freelance the test outside known standards or common procedures, it's subject to review.It happens every day. Cops use tests which they know will not be admissible.

The HGN test is a fine example which cops use notoriously, and most states/courts (not sure if all), do not accept as an approved method for a FST, and this is why....Even when administered in the most ideal of scenarios, the horizontal gaze nystagmus is only 77% accurate in determining if an individual is impaired. Not only that, but there are numerous neurological, medical and eyes conditions that could cause the onset of nystagmus—which is something only a doctor, not a police officer, could determine.
If rights are violated, that will be addressed later, after the stop is completed and paperwork done.... and perhaps after thousands of dollars are surrendered.

Incontinentius
11-03-2017, 04:53 PM
Is it this?

Home - Hogan Assessments (http://www.hoganassessments.com/)

searching this would be a part of an interview? United? I never applied to United and I have no intention of working there. Half of the management needs to be fired at United in my opinion. Sorry but wrong again. you got the wrong guy.

Pretty sure I have already passed several of these.

Its a stupid test written by idiots.

MedicalTruth
11-03-2017, 08:48 PM
Think he might care?

Here's another scenario - (hypothetical, but very close to an actual case)

A pilot has too much to drink at a Birthday party in a local restaurant, drove there, but had a designated driver.

The whole restaurant takes notice of a commotion in the parking lot. A cop is being abusive to a suspect. The pilot makes a comment, "take it easy" to the cop. The cop approaches the Pilot and subsequently arrests the pilot for DUI since the pilot had his keys in his pocket and the car in close proximity in the parking lot.

The BAC comes back .20 because the pilot just had two shots prior to the test.

The pilot goes to jail, posts bail, has to spend upwards of 5,000 for a DUI lawyer, the charge is plead out to Public Intoxication.

The pilot has to notify the FAA of the DUI within 60 days as per 61.15. (MVA depending on State).

The pilot is now grounded and has to pay upwards of 15,000 to get his/her medical back through a mandatory HIMS program based on >.20 BAC. At least 2 years of lost income.

The pilot is a brand new CFI with hardly any cash, just starting out, 20-something years old. His/her career is ruined.


Alternative scenario -

Same as above, but the cop makes an arrest for Public intoxication. The court dismisses the charge after an apology since it was a stupid first offense, and the pilot really never did anything wrong except make a statement.

The FAA never knows about it.

sailingfun
11-04-2017, 07:02 AM
Just do the HIMS evaluation. If you are not a abuser there will be no issue and problem solved. The rest of this thread is silly.

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 08:15 AM
Here's another scenario - (hypothetical, but very close to an actual case)

A pilot has too much to drink at a Birthday party in a local restaurant, drove there, but had a designated driver.

The whole restaurant takes notice of a commotion in the parking lot. A cop is being abusive to a suspect. The pilot makes a comment, "take it easy" to the cop. The cop approaches the Pilot and subsequently arrests the pilot for DUI since the pilot had his keys in his pocket and the car in close proximity in the parking lot.

The BAC comes back .20 because the pilot just had two shots prior to the test.

The pilot goes to jail, posts bail, has to spend upwards of 5,000 for a DUI lawyer, the charge is plead out to Public Intoxication.


If it really went down like that, a lawyer would have a field day with the case and police officers. Now, if a pilot went to a restaurant, had a drink or two, planned on driving home with some friends as passengers, but then when the cop found the keys the pilot changed his plan and told him that he wasn't going to drive, it's going to look fishy and he's going to have a tough time fighting it. Especially if said group of friends were already gathered around the car. If you made arrangements such as "well, before we went I asked so and so to be my DD and he said yes", and then the cop goes and confirms the story and when that was asked, you will start to establish the intent was not to drive drunk. Add that to not even being in or near the car and it's probably going to be a slam-dunk. Just like the "sleeping in the car" story. That can go both ways, passed out in the front seat with the engine running is pretty much going to land you in some kind of trouble. Sleeping in the back and "I put my keys in the glove box" or something similar is going to show intent in the other direction, especially if there were other factors like it was cold, phone didn't work, etc., and again, the lawyers will have a field day with the court system. None of these is a guaranteed "get out of jail free card", but the facts are usually not quite what you are making them out to be.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:16 AM
Just do the HIMS evaluation. If you are not a abuser there will be no issue and problem solved. The rest of this thread is silly.

Are you willing to pay for it?

It never ceases to amaze me how such people who demand control, think they are in control, can be so controlled.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:17 AM
If it really went down like that, a lawyer would have a field day with the case and police officers.

You're right, And if you have been following this thread, I mentioned the Cop has since been terminated.

The rest of your post I didn't bother to read.

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 08:19 AM
Happens all the time. Are you aware of the ongoing protests in this country based on these very events?

This is why laws are amended or abolished. The latest 18v revision is not only unfair, it is unconstitutional.

In the real world, you can fight a DUI in court, you can challenge a BAC, you can get the charge dismissed.

But in the eyes of the FAA, you're guilty until proven innocent just by what a cop says.


I'm all for fairness and I understand there are large abuses of power that still happen, but show me in the constitution where it says a pilot certificate is a right?

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 08:21 AM
You're right, And if you have been following this thread, I mentioned the Cop has since been terminated.

The rest of your post I didn't bother to read.

I read it earlier, but I forget whether you said if the officer was terminated for this exact offense/situation. I seemed to recall that you didn't, but I'm not reading the entire thing again. If they weren't terminated for blundering up this DUI arrest, it's irrelevant that they were terminated.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:22 AM
but show me in the constitution where it says a pilot certificate is a right?

Where did I say that having a pilot certificate is a right?

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:28 AM
I read it earlier, but I forget whether you said if the officer was terminated for this exact offense/situation. I seemed to recall that you didn't, but I'm not reading the entire thing again. If they weren't terminated for blundering up this DUI arrest, it's irrelevant that they were terminated.

The final straw was that the cop was terminated for failure to render aid when chasing a 20 yr old. He allowed the kid to burn alive in his car. In fact, he told his superiors that the only reason he sprayed a fire extinguisher, was to make it look good for the dash cam.

The cop had over 17 disciplinary actions for abuse of authority prior.

Do you think you would keep your job with that record?

Bottom line, an abusive cop who has since been terminated with a history of abuse of authority, is more credible in the eyes of the FAA than any pilot.

18v needs another revision.

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 08:31 AM
The final straw

Irrelevant. Kid burned alive in a car has nothing to do with this DUI story.

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 08:32 AM
Where did I say that having a pilot certificate is a right?

Somewhere around here?

This is why laws are amended or abolished. The latest 18v revision is not only unfair, it is unconstitutional.

In the real world, you can fight a DUI in court, you can challenge a BAC, you can get the charge dismissed.

But in the eyes of the FAA, you're guilty until proven innocent just by what a cop says.

WhistlePig
11-04-2017, 08:37 AM
I'm all for fairness and I understand there are large abuses of power that still happen, but show me in the constitution where it says a pilot certificate is a right?

The basis for denying the privilege must be applied equally and the process for grant or denial cannot be arbitrary.

rickair7777
11-04-2017, 08:46 AM
Here's another scenario - (hypothetical, but very close to an actual case)

A pilot has too much to drink at a Birthday party in a local restaurant, drove there, but had a designated driver.

The whole restaurant takes notice of a commotion in the parking lot. A cop is being abusive to a suspect. The pilot makes a comment, "take it easy" to the cop. The cop approaches the Pilot and subsequently arrests the pilot for DUI since the pilot had his keys in his pocket and the car in close proximity in the parking lot.

The BAC comes back .20 because the pilot just had two shots prior to the test.

The pilot goes to jail, posts bail, has to spend upwards of 5,000 for a DUI lawyer, the charge is plead out to Public Intoxication.

The pilot has to notify the FAA of the DUI within 60 days as per 61.15. (MVA depending on State).

The pilot is now grounded and has to pay upwards of 15,000 to get his/her medical back through a mandatory HIMS program based on >.20 BAC. At least 2 years of lost income.

The pilot is a brand new CFI with hardly any cash, just starting out, 20-something years old. His/her career is ruined.


Alternative scenario -

Same as above, but the cop makes an arrest for Public intoxication. The court dismisses the charge after an apology since it was a stupid first offense, and the pilot really never did anything wrong except make a statement.

The FAA never knows about it.

Like I said before everybody knows that pilots who mix car keys, booze, and cops do so at their own peril. You never know when the cops will show up, so that leaves two (count them TWO, x2) variables which you can always control. No kidding I hand the keys to my wife when I walk in the bar.

And we're all good, since the only two pilots who didn't know that, do now.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:50 AM
Somewhere around here?

So you're cool that any cop can arrest you for a DUI if you are at a bar with keys in your pocket and your car in the parking lot?

rickair7777
11-04-2017, 08:50 AM
The basis for denying the privilege must be applied equally and the process for grant or denial cannot be arbitrary.

It's a battle which could be fought, and was to a degree with PBoR.

There are always aspects of society and government which could be adjusted for better, but applying fundamental human rights style protections to pilot medical processes is not something too many people care about. Also it would be a steep uphill battle because the political soundbite would be "improved rights for drunk airline pilots".

rickair7777
11-04-2017, 08:52 AM
So you're cool that any cop can arrest you for a DUI if you are at a bar with keys in your pocket and your car in the parking lot?


I am not, never have been. But it's an uphill battle. If you want to fight it on perhaps constitutional grounds I will happily sign the petition. But it's easier for me to hand the keys to my wife than tilt at windmills.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:52 AM
Like I said before everybody knows that pilots who mix car keys, booze, and cops do so at their own peril..


So you're cool that any cop can arrest you for a DUI if you are at a bar with keys in your pocket and your car in the parking lot?

Maybe we should station Cops at the door of every bar/grill/Chilli's?

Well no, that would be a 4th Amendment violation.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 08:56 AM
But it's easier for me to hand the keys to my wife than tilt at windmills.

For you , yes...

But what of the 20-something, brand new CFI?

Perhaps you think all pilots are mature and married?

say again
11-04-2017, 09:04 AM
For you , yes...

But what of the 20-something, brand new CFI?

Perhaps you think all pilots are mature and married?

You don't have to be married to have a brain. Taxi, Uber, etc. There are many options, even for a 20-something, brand new CFI.

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 09:10 AM
You don't have to be married to have a brain. Taxi, Uber, etc. There are many options, even for a 20-something, brand new CFI.

I agree, one can also have a designated driver.

And if you read the thread, rick and John suggest that if you walk close to your car, with the keys in your pocket, without ever driving, you are subject to a DUI Conviction.

Apparently, rick still hasn't googled the term "physical control".

MedicalTruth
11-04-2017, 09:59 AM
I should also add,

If you toss the keys to friend/gf/bf/wife/hubby... whatever... thinking you will not be charged with a DUI because you were not driving. Some States will charge and CONVICT you of DUI for giving the keys to someone who may have had less to drink than you, but you are on the hook, FST, BAC and all that comes with it.

You may beat the rap, but you will not beat the ride.

sailingfun
11-04-2017, 06:43 PM
Some are really over playing the law. Spoke to my brother who is a cop and you need to be in the drivers seat or they need to show with evidence that you had driven the car. A quick internet search confirmed that on multiple sites.

The fact is, you do not have to be driving to be arrested for a DUI. You just need to be in the driver's seat of a car and be in possession of the keys. To the law in most states, this means you are in physical control of the car, even though you are not driving. Your keys do not even have to be in the ignition.

rickair7777
11-04-2017, 07:31 PM
Some are really over playing the law. Spoke to my brother who is a cop and you need to be in the drivers seat or they need to show with evidence that you had driven the car. A quick internet search confirmed that on multiple sites.

The fact is, you do not have to be driving to be arrested for a DUI. You just need to be in the driver's seat of a car and be in possession of the keys. To the law in most states, this means you are in physical control of the car, even though you are not driving. Your keys do not even have to be in the ignition.

In the past (20+ years), in some states being drunk in the parking lot with keys counted. This was briefed to junior military personnel (due to transient nature, best to default to worst-case state law). Legal precedent might have changed at some point, I certainly hope it would eventually.

JamesNoBrakes
11-04-2017, 07:51 PM
Some are really over playing the law. Spoke to my brother who is a cop and you need to be in the drivers seat or they need to show with evidence that you had driven the car. A quick internet search confirmed that on multiple sites.

Yes, but it would be an uphill battle for the prosecutor if all they had was they found some guy sitting/sleeping in their car, unless there was some pretty good evidence (relating BAC with video surveillance, etc.). I haven't read those laws, but I'd assume that what is established is the "intent" or act of driving, insofar as stopping it before it happens or being able to prosecute it after it happens. Any why would you even come up on the radar at this point to a cop? Because you probably illegally parked, are blocking the street or hit something/someone while you were driving. Yes, there is a reason this law exists, but if it's truly a situation where your intent was to sleep in the back of your car because you had no other option, you are probably going to win your case. This is exactly what lawyers are for, when the police mess up and arrest someone that probably shouldn't have been arrested.

This thread just keeps getting weirder, asking "are you cool with cops arresting you illegally?" Well of course not, but obviously with a system as big as ours it's going to happen to some extent, which again, is why we have lawyers. If you aren't smart enough to hire a lawyer when it looks like you're being railroaded for something that you didn't do, well, you got other problems.

dera
11-04-2017, 08:56 PM
Yes, but it would be an uphill battle for the prosecutor if all they had was they found some guy sitting/sleeping in their car, unless there was some pretty good evidence (relating BAC with video surveillance, etc.). I haven't read those laws, but I'd assume that what is established is the "intent" or act of driving, insofar as stopping it before it happens or being able to prosecute it after it happens. Any why would you even come up on the radar at this point to a cop? Because you probably illegally parked, are blocking the street or hit something/someone while you were driving. Yes, there is a reason this law exists, but if it's truly a situation where your intent was to sleep in the back of your car because you had no other option, you are probably going to win your case. This is exactly what lawyers are for, when the police mess up and arrest someone that probably shouldn't have been arrested.

This thread just keeps getting weirder, asking "are you cool with cops arresting you illegally?" Well of course not, but obviously with a system as big as ours it's going to happen to some extent, which again, is why we have lawyers. If you aren't smart enough to hire a lawyer when it looks like you're being railroaded for something that you didn't do, well, you got other problems.

That is irrelevant though. An arrest with no BAC report (or BAC over 0.15, or refusal) means an AME must defer your medical, and that gets very expensive very quickly when FAA wants you to dance through the HIMS jazz.
Doesn't matter if your lawyers win. You're still screwed. A DUI arrest can screw up pilots career, badly. Even when it's completely illegal.

Xdashdriver
11-04-2017, 09:17 PM
In the past (20+ years), in some states being drunk in the parking lot with keys counted. This was briefed to junior military personnel (due to transient nature, best to default to worst-case state law). Legal precedent might have changed at some point, I certainly hope it would eventually.

I highly suspect the specifics of a few marginal cases got lost in translation before reaching the briefings then. I seriously doubt the only evidence required to show probable cause was someone standing drunk in a parking lot with keys, in any state.

SonicFlyer
11-04-2017, 11:44 PM
show me in the constitution where it says a pilot certificate is a right?Actually truth be known any positive federal involvement in air travel (other than border crossing) is unconstitutional.

We have a right to travel but the government has illegally turned it in to a privilege.

rickair7777
11-05-2017, 06:47 AM
Actually truth be known any positive federal involvement in air travel (other than border crossing) is unconstitutional.

We have a right to travel but the government has illegally turned it in to a privilege.


Constitution did not guarantee the right to pilot airplanes (or drive cars for that matter). It's not the travel that's restricted (you can still take a horse or train, or walk), it's the operating of heavy machinery that might harm other people.

In the era when the constitution was written it was perfectly reasonable to spend six months traveling between NY and CA.

SonicFlyer
11-05-2017, 09:32 AM
Constitution did not guarantee the right to pilot airplanes (or drive cars for that matter). It's not the travel that's restricted (you can still take a horse or train, or walk), it's the operating of heavy machinery that might harm other people.Actually the Constitution guarantees all rights. And it gives the federal government zero authority to regulate the operating of heavy machinery.

In the era when the constitution was written it was perfectly reasonable to spend six months traveling between NY and CA.When the Constitution was written no one was travelling from NY to CA.

tomgoodman
11-05-2017, 12:13 PM
Actually the Constitution guarantees all rights. And it gives the federal government zero authority to regulate the operating of heavy machinery.

The Constitution’s “Commerce Clause” has been interpreted as a virtual blank check for government to do just that, and a whole lot more. Some argue that the Feds are overreaching, and some say their rules are necessary, but that horse left the barn many years ago.

MedicalTruth
11-05-2017, 10:12 PM
Physical Control or "Actual Physical Control" (in many States), has been interpreted as being in close proximity to the controls of a vehicle with immediate opportunity to operate the vehicle.

For example -

Sleeping in the drivers seat with keys in the ignition - obviously physical control

Sleeping in the drivers seat with the keys on the pax seat - Physical Control

Sleeping in the pax seat with keys in the drivers seat - Physical Control

Sleeping in the back seat with keys in your pocket - Not physical control

Being outside your car at a Tailgate party with keys in your pocket - Not physical control

Walking by your car in a parking lot with keys in your pocket - Not physical control

There are many examples of Case Law from many different States describing the above scenario's.

But to be certain, it is highly recommend that one review the interpretations for their State before attempting any of the above as a Pilot. Because as we know, even though the charge may not stick, any Cop can put you in a world of hurt based on a bogus arrest alone, until, hopefully one day, 18v is either amended or reverted back to pre-2008 rule change.

Hope this helps.

JohnBurke
11-06-2017, 12:35 AM
Wrong. I have never been charged with a DUI.


Neither I, nor anyone else said you had been, nor intimated as much, nor would or should any of us care. I certainly don't. Thanks for keeping us informed on that, though.


What if you were sleeping with the officers soon to be ex wife?

That would make you an idiot.

What if you had agreed to meet her at say Dick's sporting goods to start an affair with her?

Still an idiot.

What if her soon to be ex husband had a tag on her vehicle, on her cell, or reading her emails.


Much like taking off with insufficient fuel or too short a runway, this is avoidable. Don't be stupid. This isn't a pilot vs. cop issue. This is someone dumb enough to mess with another man's wife.

Also a poor idea to poke sticks in hornet nests, walk barefoot around volcanos, or go backpacking in Iran, regardless of whether you're a pilot.


Suppose he had an off duty buddy follow the two of you? A private investigator?

Suppose you didn't do something so stupid? Anyone can hire a private investigator to follow you. If you're doing something that a private investigator can detect, then either A) be a bit smarter about not getting caught, or better yet, B) don't do it in the first place.

Again, don't be stupid. Problem solved.

Its a hypothetical scenario and likely to happen in reality.

Only if you're stupid enough to go sleeping with a cop's wife.

It's not likely to happen to me, in fact not possible, but if it's happening to you, I'm having a hard time caring. One tends to get what one deserves in such cases, and one knows such a risk going in. While you're at it, however, I recommend against swimming naked in schools of electric eels, skydiving without a parachute, or attempting to set fire to cops on duty (or off duty). If any of those are likely to happen to you, don't do them, either, and your odds drop to zero. This is preventable, you see.

This doesn't even begin to address potential meddling by a dirt bag employer with access to police or a relative working in the industry.


Does this happen to you, much?

JohnBurke
11-06-2017, 05:40 AM
The rest of your post I didn't bother to read.

This speaks more about your involvement here than anything else you might say, or hope to say.

For you , yes...

But what of the 20-something, brand new CFI?

Perhaps you think all pilots are mature and married?

Married is irrelevant, but you certainly come across as a very early-20's type of character, with a lot of learning and a lot of growing up to do.

These issues you keep bringing up, that seem to be such a minefield for you, are simply not an issue for most of us who exercise a little better judgement and intelligence.

We're not paid for our monkey skills, but for our judgement. Based on your comments, whatever your salary, you may be overpaid.

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 07:02 AM
Actually the Constitution guarantees all rights. And it gives the federal government zero authority to regulate the operating of heavy machinery.

When the Constitution was written no one was travelling from NY to CA.

I said " in the era". Overland transcon travel came about in that general era (1804 to be exact).

I think constitutional law is pretty well settled as far as the regulation of heavy machinery operators. If you want to argue that, I'm tuning out.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 07:15 AM
... that seem to be such a minefield for you,

Actually, such cases are pretty straight forward when informed. Especially after defending such cases.

...are simply not an issue for most of us who exercise a little better judgement and intelligence.Apparently you have never made a mistake, come across a cop who made a mistake, nor ever confronted a "dirty cop" (yes, they exist).

Certainly if a Cop were being abusive, you would recommend to just keep your mouth shut, is that correct?

You would also never be tempted with adultery because that NEVER happens in the aviation industry. /s

(or perhaps it just never happens for you?)

We're not paid for our monkey skills, but for our judgement.Agreed.

People are here to discuss DUI as it pertains to Aviation Law. Do you have anything to add besides calling others idiots and berating those who in your opinion are unintelligent and exercise poor judgement?

USMCFLYR
11-06-2017, 07:21 AM
People are here to discuss DUI as it pertains to Aviation Law. Do you have anything to add besides calling others idiots and berating those who in your opinion are unintelligent and exercise poor judgement?

You haven't exactly been much inclined to listen to anyone else's 'opinions' if they differ from yours either MT. You are definitely in transmit mode and there is no receiving on your end.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 07:25 AM
You haven't exactly been much inclined to listen to anyone else's 'opinions' if they differ from yours either MT. You are definitely in transmit mode and there is no receiving on your end.

I have listened and have even given resources to become better informed.

Are you also one of those who think that being in close proximity to your car with your keys could result in a DUI conviction?

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 08:40 AM
I said " in the era". Overland transcon travel came about in that general era (1804 to be exact).

I think constitutional law is pretty well settled as far as the regulation of heavy machinery operators. If you want to argue that, I'm tuning out.

I perhaps should have been more clear on my statement - "unconstitutional"

I should have added the word "arguably".

As we can already see it being argued here.

So let me rephrase -

The latest revision to section 18v is arguably unconstitutional.

I will add it is a slippery slope.

In a climate where flights are being cancelled due to lack of aviators, what is next?

All misdemeanor arrests (not convictions), will have to be reported?

Depending on the charge/arrest, you may need to jump through more hoops.

eg. (at the risk of getting off topic)
Have a DV charge/arrest due to a jealous wife/gf psycho... who smashed her head against a wall as you came home from a trip after she thought you were putting it to an FA?

You beat it in court (because the lady is a psycho), but it doesn't matter. You are grounded based on the arrest alone and need two years of anger management courses at your expense.

Examples of the slippery slope pilots are willing to endure.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 08:48 AM
Here's another good example,

You can be arrested for Murder, Manslaughter, Terrorism even.... but if never convicted... you don't have to report it to the FAA.... ever.

The people who spent 10+ year in Guantanamo and then released without trial? They can get a medical.

But have a few drinks 5 years ago, and a cop arrests you, you are a menace!

(or as John puts it, unintelligent and have poor judgement)

USMCFLYR
11-06-2017, 09:32 AM
I have listened and have even given resources to become better informed.

Are you also one of those who think that being in close proximity to your car with your keys could result in a DUI conviction?
I'm one of the ones that think you have certain good things to say but I can't get past your approach.

If you are really trying to educate - which I don't think you are, I think you have some bone to pick - then you should share your qualifications with the forum and change your approach.

I'm hoping you have some background in Aviation law (or law in general), but you are coming across as a disgruntled person who got in trouble and now have become some internet crusader with Google-Fu skills and think everything is some great conspiracy.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 09:44 AM
I'm one of the ones that think you have certain good things to say but I can't get past your approach.



Can you answer my question?

Are you also one of those who think that being in close proximity to your car with your keys could result in a DUI conviction?

I'll take your second evade as a no.

I'll add another question.

Do you think it is productive and a good "approach" to call people "idiots" on this thread?

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 10:12 AM
I notice you don't have an avatar yet, here's an idea...

https://s3.envato.com/files/27480311/topor-1_PREVIEW.jpg

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 10:13 AM
I notice you don't have an avatar yet

And that pertains to the topic how?

(edit: for those looking for the above post from rick, he deleted it. I'm sure for good reason)

rickair7777
11-06-2017, 10:30 AM
And that pertains to the topic how?

(edit: for those looking for the above post from rick, he deleted it. I'm sure for good reason)


Trying to make the image display, should be working now...

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 10:32 AM
Trying to make the image display, should be working now...

Fair enough, the readers can determine the time stamps of the posts if they wish.

But my question still stands, what does having an avatar have to do with the topic?

Furthermore, have you googled "Physical Control" for your State and do you still think that you can be convicted for DUI when being in close proximity to your car?

Third time asked.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 10:54 AM
Ok, well, apparently Rick doesn't want to answer.

But, JohnBurke and USMCFLYR have come to the rescue.

If anyone can find Case Law which shows a conviction upheld for DUI while being in a parking lot close to their car as definition of Actual Physical Control, I will happily apologize to Rick, John and USMC. Because as stated by Rick, and further justified by John according to math, "everybody" knows. Right?

I'll be waiting.

say again
11-06-2017, 11:03 AM
Ok, well, apparently Rick doesn't want to answer.

But, JohnBurke and USMCFLYR have come to the rescue.

If anyone can find Case Law which shows a conviction upheld for DUI while being in a parking lot close to their car as definition of Actual Physical Control, I will happily apologize to Rick, John and USMC. Because as stated by Rick, and further justified by John according to math, "everybody" knows. Right?

I'll be waiting.

Dude, relax! Do some research if this bothers you so much. I don't think they care one bit if you apologize to them or not. They have their opinions, just as you do.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 11:08 AM
They have their opinions, just as you do.

Opinions in the case of a DUI could mean the difference between 100 bucks or upwards of 15,000.

Which side do you want to be on?

Are you also of the "opinion" that you can be convicted of a DUI just by simply being by your car in a parking lot with keys in your pocket?

I think we should perhaps take it to a vote on this site. Because according to Rick and supported by John, "everybody" knows.

Wanna take a vote?

My position is not an opinion, it is fact.

MedicalTruth
11-06-2017, 12:30 PM
It should also be noted in this thread -

Being new and asking other members questions = bad

Being a longstanding member and calling others idiots = ok/ignored

Group mentality at its finest.

I'm ready for my ban now.

JohnBurke
11-06-2017, 08:10 PM
Actually, such cases are pretty straight forward when informed. Especially after defending such cases.


If you've "defended" such a case, it's been you as a defendant. Very clearly you know nothing about aviation law, aviation regulation, or criminal law, other than having been charged. You're no attorney, and you've very obviously inexperienced in aviation.

How many times have you been charged with drunk driving?


Apparently you have never made a mistake, come across a cop who made a mistake, nor ever confronted a "dirty cop" (yes, they exist).


Apparently?

One of us has worked in law enforcement. It's not you, though.


Certainly if a Cop were being abusive, you would recommend to just keep your mouth shut, is that correct?


Unequivocally yes. Keep your trap shut in such a case. Document after the fact, as already stated. READ.


You would also never be tempted with adultery because that NEVER happens in the aviation industry. /s

(or perhaps it just never happens for you?)


Adultery doesn't "happen" to you. You cause it. It's a positive action you must take. If you're stupid enough to commit adultery, particularly with a cop's wife, then you're apparently willing to accept the consequences. If you pick up one end of the stick, you see, you pick up the other. You'll learn this one day, if you live long enough.

Whether one is "tempted" or not is irrelevant, as being "tempted" is not a crime.

One can avoid "temptation" by avoiding the situation entirely. This is something within your control. To suggest that such things "happen" to someone is to suggest a world in which control is not possible. This is an aviation forum. Control is absolutely necessary. If you cannot control yourself, we have arrived at the root of your problem.


Are you also of the "opinion" that you can be convicted of a DUI just by simply being by your car in a parking lot with keys in your pocket?


Depending on the jurisdiction, one can be cited with one or more of several possible charges. Whether those charges result in a conviction depends on information not in evidence; yes, conviction is possible. You can be cited for being intoxicated in your car on a public street, common area, parking lot, and even on your own private property and drive, and yes, you can be convicted of that charge. Yes, that conviction can impact your ability to hold a medical or be employed in the industry.

I perhaps should have been more clear on my statement - "unconstitutional"

I should have added the word "arguably".



We have arrived at the full measure of your ignorance. You really don't understand, do you?

You have no right to hold a medical, constitutional, or otherwise. You have no right to hold a pilot certificate, and the constitution offers no relief. The FAA is chartered as an Act of Congress, charged with regulating, promoting, and enforcing aviation, and in the creation and maintenance or aviation regulation. Do you understand the difference between criminal law, civil law, and administrative law? Do you understand the differences in standards, processes, protections, and pitfalls? You do not. Your waffling on about "constitutional" this or that paints a clear picture of your ignorance on the subject.

Come clean. Your understanding of this subject, or what you deem your understanding, comes from having been charged or arrested for intoxication or operation under the influence, doesn't it? The reference to your axe to grind, made above, is spot on.



The latest revision to section 18v is arguably unconstitutional.


Foot the bill. Tilt at that windmill. Battle it through, see where you get. See if you can find any constitutional right to hold a medical in the first place, then see if you have any way to apply the US Constitution to the medical standards in 14 CFR Part 67.

Yours is not the voice of an experienced attorney, altruistically seeking to right injustice in the system (do you have any idea how to go about changing the regulation?). Yours is not the voice of an experienced law enforcement officer sharing his street wisdom. Yours is not the song of an experienced airline transport pilot with a vast wealth of career moments from which to draw and share.

Yours is the voice of a 21-23 year old kid who wasn't bright enough to keep off the sauce or keep keys out of hand when drinking, and perhaps who did actually sleep with a cop's wife (god help you, kiddo, because it's not just that officer you'll need to watch out for, and being a pilot won't make a hill of beans difference).

Grow up, learn to handle a set of car keys and a drink, stay away from other men's wives, don't talk back to police officers acting in the capacity of their sworn duties, and for god's sake, grow a brain before you try to advance your career in the cockpit. You sound like a major mishap in the making.

For now, it's clear that any further interaction with you is a waste of life, space, breath, and wear on my keyboard, so you're off to the ignore list. Bye.


This message is hidden because MedicalTruth is on your ignore list.


Perfect. Just perfect.

JamesNoBrakes
11-06-2017, 08:29 PM
These laws don't change themselves, if this bugs you so much, what ends have you pursued to get your elected representatives to change them? What groups have you contacted to assist?

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 05:55 AM
So, rick says that "everybody knows that being in close proximity to your car with keys in your pocket could result in a DUI conviction" (paraphrased)

I ask, who is "everybody?".

John replies -

If you don't know, then mathematically the set is simple. Everybody but you.


Now click here John.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109158-poll-dui-actual-physical-control.html

The vote so far is 4-0 in favor of nobody? You should vote, as "mathematically", you have zero support for your argument.

ASTEROIDEA7
11-08-2017, 06:29 AM
Adultery doesn't "happen" to you. You cause it. It's a positive action you must take. If you're stupid enough to commit adultery, particularly with a cop's wife, then you're apparently willing to accept the consequences.



I think you are missing something here. The original poster stated that he did not commit adultery with the police officer's wife and that it was a high school crush that he flirted with briefly but got Dr. UNK instead of meeting her at DICKS.

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 06:38 AM
I think you are missing something here. The original poster stated that he did not commit adultery with the police officer's wife and that it was a high school crush that he flirted with briefly but got Dr. UNK instead of meeting her at DICKS.

Exactly.

I was hoping someone else would pick up on this.

Yet, we are the unintelligent and immature.

Be careful, you may be called an idiot as well since this is your first post.

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 06:50 AM
Since JohnBurke is allowed to profile me.

Am I allowed to profile him?

I would argue he is a crusty old FAA Inspector who couldn't get a real flying job. Perhaps had a previous job as a LEO and thinks LEO's can do no wrong. He tries to portray himself as a "Good Christian". He is obviously jealous of the kids today making more than he ever did, flying jets that he never could fly.

I have much more... but am I close John?

say again
11-08-2017, 06:57 AM
Since JohnBurke is allowed to profile me.

Am I allowed to profile him?

I would argue he is a crusty old FAA Inspector who couldn't get a real flying job. Perhaps had a previous job as a LEO and thinks LEO's can do no wrong. He tries to portray himself as a "Good Christian". He is obviously jealous of the kids today making more than he ever did, flying jets that he never could fly.

I have much more... but am I close John?

You can do whatever you want. Does it make you feel better about yourself? Sad.

say again
11-08-2017, 06:59 AM
Opinions in the case of a DUI could mean the difference between 100 bucks or upwards of 15,000.

Which side do you want to be on?

Are you also of the "opinion" that you can be convicted of a DUI just by simply being by your car in a parking lot with keys in your pocket?

I think we should perhaps take it to a vote on this site. Because according to Rick and supported by John, "everybody" knows.

Wanna take a vote?

My position is not an opinion, it is fact.

That's not the law where I live. I can't speak for other areas.

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 07:03 AM
You can do whatever you want. Does it make you feel better about yourself? Sad.

Yes, it makes me feel better about myself when educating others.

Have you voted?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109158-poll-dui-actual-physical-control.html

edit: That's not the law where I live. I can't speak for other areas.

Fair enough, Where do you live?

And can you please provide the law in your State (or Case Law) based on physical control?

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 08:00 AM
Helloooo, Rick,

I thought you said "everybody" knows?

WTF is going on here?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109158-poll-dui-actual-physical-control.html

JohnBurke
11-08-2017, 01:29 PM
I think you are missing something here. The original poster stated that he did not commit adultery with the police officer's wife and that it was a high school crush that he flirted with briefly but got Dr. UNK instead of meeting her at DICKS.

You missed something here. Wasn't replying to you, but I did quote the poster to whom I replied. My reply was to the quoted material. Doesn't have a damn thing to do with the original poster, but a lot to do with the QUOTE to which I responded. Reading is key, here.

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 01:47 PM
Reading is key, here.

I agree.

John, have you read the poll in this section?

You have claimed "Everybody but you".

But it seems it is now 7-0 in favor of me.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/poll-414-dui-actual-physical-control.html

Certainly those who voted are "idiots" and "uniformed", right?

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 02:16 PM
USMCFlyr-

I know you are reading, and you are correct, "but it is your approach"

I would argue, some people need to be spanked.

USMCFLYR
11-08-2017, 02:20 PM
USMCFlyr-

I know you are reading, and you are correct, "but it is your approach"

I would argue, some people need to be spanked.
Oh I'm reading. It is my nightly entertainment when on the road - well this and B Horror movies on NetFliks.

Are you trying to reach ONE person or MANY people?

Btw - personally I think you are putting FAR too much faith in your opinion poll, but again - that is just me.
If it bolsters your argument - pile it on.

MedicalTruth
11-08-2017, 02:32 PM
Oh I'm reading. It is my nightly entertainment when on the road - well this and B Horror movies on NetFliks.

Are you trying to reach ONE person or MANY people?

Btw - personally I think you are putting FAR too much faith in your opinion poll, but again - that is just me.
If it bolsters your argument - pile it on.

A reply in less than 4 mins.

Awesome...

TBH, I thought it would take more than 30 mins for you to reply.

So, did you vote?

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 09:00 AM
Everybody in aviation (and the military) knows that you can get a DUI for possessing keys in proximity to the car, nothing new.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/aviation-law/109158-poll-dui-actual-physical-control.html

tomgoodman
11-10-2017, 12:21 PM
Just do the HIMS evaluation. If you are not a abuser there will be no issue and problem solved.

That is very good advice. In many cases, the evaluation clears the pilot, and the HIMS committee is happy that their workload has not increased. Caution: a belligerent attitude and reluctant compliance will not obtain an unrestricted medical certificate. The FAA must be convinced that the pilot will stay in recovery after he is no longer being monitored. For those who need it, HIMS is a lifesaver.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ahy4zPItw4E

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 12:25 PM
That is very good advice. In many cases, the evaluation clears the pilot, and the HIMS committee is happy that their workload has not increased.

I was wondering when you would chime in.

You were the first to view my profile.

And now you recommend a HIMS program that could cost a pilot upwards of 15,000 over what could be a bogus arrest?

To the others reading, NO, that is not good advice.

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 12:37 PM
To those who are HIMS Certified,

How do you justify the fact that pilots are allowed by the FAA to fly an airplane with a .04 BAC?

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 12:56 PM
In short, a pilot could show up for work with a .039 BAC every single day and be legal under the eyes of the FAA and HIMS.

But if you are ever arrested at a party, without any intention of driving (or flying), and your BAC is over .15, you are a menace.

tomgoodman
11-10-2017, 02:18 PM
And now you recommend a HIMS program that could cost a pilot upwards of 15,000 over what could be a bogus arrest?


Not necessarily, but I recommend that a pilot get the evaluation if the FAA requests it. That will cost very little, and then he or she can review their options.

As to the BAC “allowance”, we were told that it exists because breathalyzers are not sufficiently accurate below a certain concentration.

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 02:24 PM
Not necessarily, but I recommend that a pilot get the evaluation if the FAA requests it. That will cost very little, and then he or she can review their options.

Describe "little"?

As to the BAC “allowance”, we were told that it exists because breathalyzers are not sufficiently accurate below a certain concentration.

Describe "we"?

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 02:34 PM
Tom, the fact of the matter is, you are a 767A (WTF is a 767A?) retired pilot who has been on this forum for more than a decade.

Do you even know consequences of the 2008 18v revision?

galaxy flyer
11-10-2017, 05:47 PM
Tom, the fact of the matter is, you are a 767A (WTF is a 767A?) retired pilot who has been on this forum for more than a decade.

Do you even know consequences of the 2008 18v revision?

I guess you’re NOT a pilot because, if you were, you’d know what an “A” is.

You are tedious,

GF

tomgoodman
11-10-2017, 06:14 PM
Describe "little"?
Describe "we"?

Sure. I used “little” in a relative sense, meaning “far less than the 15,000 you cited. For more exact information, contact an AME.
By “we” I meant HIMS committee members.

Tom, the fact of the matter is, you are a 767A (WTF is a 767A?) retired pilot who has been on this forum for more than a decade.

Do you even know consequences of the 2008 18v revision?

Yes, 18v was revised to include reference to arrests, which made no difference in our HIMS work. We did not set FAA medical standards, but only helped pilots meet them in order to save their jobs.

If a pilot feels that the FAA has wrongly denied them a medical certificate, there are several levels of appeal:

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/faq/response14/

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 06:15 PM
I guess you’re NOT a pilot because, if you were, you’d know what an “A” is.

You are tedious,

GF

Can you please show me where a 767A is listed on this document?

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/a8694be7b7ac6c178625731e006944bc/$FILE/A1NM%20Rev%2026.pdf

Perhaps you should be so tedious?

MedicalTruth
11-10-2017, 06:19 PM
Yes, 18v was revised to include reference to arrests, which made no difference in our HIMS work. We did not set FAA medical standards, but only helped pilots meet them in order to save their jobs.

If a pilot feels that the FAA has wrongly denied them a medical certificate, there are several levels of appeal:

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/faq/response14/

Have you reviewed this?

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/

UAL T38 Phlyer
11-10-2017, 08:53 PM
Oh, Don.......oxygen masks.

badflaps
11-10-2017, 10:16 PM
Who in the world left the door open?

ESHBAAL666
11-11-2017, 05:13 AM
Hi,

working on parts of a research paper. The subject of my paper is diplomatic immunity as this relates to mental health.

I am hoping the forum can answer a question of mine. What criteria does the FAA use to select senior AME? Also, what constitutes HIMS qualification of an AME? What are the criteria?

How does the FAA select its chief psychiatrist? What criteria are used?

I am in the beginning stages of gathering research for my thesis. Here is a source I am considering for review. Its from the Royal College of Psychiatrists:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.552.6762&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Thanks for any feedback.

Also, how do airline unions select HIMS chair men and women? What are the educational requirements for this union assignment? Does ALPA participate in this education? Do any of the unions participate in this?

BTW, T38, is that an F4 in your avatar?

My favorite is the SR 71. I don't fly. I'm in acadamia but I still admire airplanes.

Thanks

tomgoodman
11-11-2017, 06:24 AM
ESHBAAL666,

These links should get you started. For information that can be used in your thesis, contact the organizations directly. If you quote an anonymous forum, your Professor will flunk you.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/

Home (http://www.himsprogram.com)

UAL T38 Phlyer
11-11-2017, 09:09 AM
ESHBAAL:

BTW, T38, is that an F4 in your avatar?

Yes. It's an F-4D, at what I believe is Smokey Hill gunnery range.

I flew Phantoms for a long time....not me in the pic, but has always been a fave.

Vital Signs
11-11-2017, 12:31 PM
Since you are invoking egyptian pharaohs who attacked Judah, can you enlighten us to what kind of thesis and who it is for?