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bay982
10-20-2017, 08:57 AM
Would rather support battery manufacturers than commercial airlines.

This will inevitably cause a hull loss.

FAA: Laptops in checked bags pose fire, explosion risk
October 20 2017
ABC News Online

The U.S. government is urging the world airline community to ban large, personal electronic devices like laptops from checked luggage because of the potential for a catastrophic fire.

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a paper filed recently with a U.N. agency that its tests show that when a laptop's rechargeable lithium-ion battery overheats in close proximity to an aerosol spray can, it can cause an explosion capable of disabling an airliner's fire suppression system. The fire could then rage unchecked, leading to "the loss of the aircraft," the paper said.

The U.N. agency, the International Civil Aviation Organization, sets global aviation safety standards, although member countries must still ratify them. The proposed ban is on the agenda of a meeting of ICAO's panel on dangerous goods being held this week and next week in Montreal.

The FAA has conducted 10 tests involving a fully-charged laptop packed in a suitcase. A heater was placed against the laptop's battery to force it into "thermal runaway," a condition in which the battery's temperature continually rises.

In one test, an 8-ounce aerosol can of dry shampoo —which is permitted in checked baggage — was strapped to the laptop. There was a fire almost immediately and it grew rapidly. The aerosol can exploded within 40 seconds.

The test showed that because of the rapid progression of the fire, Halon gas fire suppressant systems used in airline cargo compartments would be unable to put out the fire before there was an explosion, the FAA said. The explosion might not be strong enough to structurally damage the plane, but it could damage the cargo compartment and allow the Halon to escape, the agency said. Then there would be nothing to prevent the fire from spreading.

Other tests of laptop batteries packed with potentially dangerous consumer goods that are permitted in checked baggage like nail polish remover, hand sanitizer and rubbing alcohol also resulted in large fires, although no explosions.

As a result, the paper recommends that passengers shouldn't be allowed to pack large electronic devices in baggage unless they have specific approval from the airline. The paper says the European Safety Agency, the FAA's counterpart in Europe; Airbus, one of the world's largest makers of passenger airliners; the International Federation of Airline Pilots' Association, and the International Coordinating Council of Aerospace Industries Association, which represents aircraft makers, concurred in the recommendation.

The paper doesn't address whether the ban should extend to domestic flights, but points out the risk that baggage containing a large electronic device could be transferred from one flight to another without the knowledge of the airline. The FAA said it believes most devices larger than a smartphone are already being carried by passengers into the cabin, rather than put in checked bags.

Rechargeable lithium batteries are used in consumer products ranging from cellphones and laptops to electric cars. Manufacturers like them because they pack more energy into smaller packages, but the batteries can self-ignite if they have a manufacturing flaw, are damaged, exposed to excessive heat, overcharged or packed too closely together. The fires can burn up to 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, close to the melting point of the aluminum used in aircraft construction.

Since 2006, three cargo jets have been destroyed and four pilots killed by in-flight fires that investigators say were either started by batteries or made more severe by their proximity.

Earlier this year, the U.S. imposed a ban on laptops in the cabins of planes coming into the country from 10 Middle Eastern airports for security reasons. The ban was fully lifted in July after U.S. officials said airports in the region had taken other steps to increase security.

The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration formerly led the U.S. negotiations on the regulation of dangerous goods at ICAO meetings. But the Obama administration put the FAA in charge in 2009 after congressional Democrats accused high-level officials at PHMSA of being too cozy with the industries they regulate.

Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao has now decided to put PHMSA back in charge at future ICAO dangerous goods deliberations, Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., said Thursday. Both agencies are part of the Transportation Department.

DeFazio called the decision "inexplicable" in a letter to Chao.

"I strongly believe it has the potential to put the lives of airline passengers and crews at serious risk," he said.

Chao didn't immediately respond to a request for comment. Lobbyists for lithium battery makers and companies that use the batteries in their products have previously urged the change.


Hetman
10-20-2017, 10:39 AM
Oooo! YAY! More "Trump's fault!" I just cant get enough of the left/right, red/ blue, tastes great/less filling cacophony.

Thank you, bay982, for making the world a better place.

bay982
10-20-2017, 11:20 AM
Oooo! YAY! More "Trump's fault!" I just cant get enough of the left/right, red/ blue, tastes great/less filling cacophony.

Thank you, bay982, for making the world a better place.

I can't tell if you're concerned about the increased danger his appointee will bring to aviation with this decision, but in any case, you're welcome!


Scut Farkus
10-20-2017, 02:39 PM
How does this not help safety? Confused by headline of thread and then the comment that this will cause a hull loss.
Would it not be better to have a battery fire in the cabin where you can fight it, or, in the belly where they think the Fire suppression might not be able to put it out.
How does this help the battery manufactures? And Who checks a laptop anyway?

bay982
10-20-2017, 07:33 PM
How does this not help safety? Confused by headline of thread and then the comment that this will cause a hull loss.
Would it not be better to have a battery fire in the cabin where you can fight it, or, in the belly where they think the Fire suppression might not be able to put it out.
How does this help the battery manufactures? And Who checks a laptop anyway?

This helps battery manufacturers by allowing them to ship their product in a less regulated manner. They will now not need to adopt increased safety standards recommended by FAA and used by the ICAO community. This is generally relevant to cargo shipments of batteries, which may be able to be shipped on all aircraft now, not just cargo aircraft.

Flightcap
10-27-2017, 05:21 AM
You may have had the opportunity for starting a civil discussion about batteries in passenger airliner cargo holds, but the fact that you tried to make it a left/right, bash/cheer Trump thread off the bat will pretty much destroy any chance of that happening.

Adlerdriver
10-27-2017, 02:14 PM
Would rather support battery manufacturers than commercial airlines.

This will inevitably cause a hull loss.
What, exactly, is going to cause the hull loss?

Unless you know something else not discussed in this article, WTF are you talking about? The information YOU posted talks about restricting large electronics from checked bags. This is to mitigate the possibility of a hull loss by making any batteries in large electronics accessible to the people on the aircraft. Hopefully this will create the potential for dealing with a battery runaway in the cabin rather than having it happen in the cargo hold in close proximity to aerosol cans and the other potentially dangerous items in most folks checked bags.

The only other thing the article you posted discusses is the laptop restriction which is an anti-terrorism measure dealing with specific high-threat countries.

So, explain to us how the information you posted has any reference to shipping L-I batteries and any relaxing of current restrictions.

As of right now, there are no shipments of L-I batteries allowed as cargo on passenger aircraft. I carry them all the time as cargo on my jet and I'm not real happy about that. But I'd really like to know what you think has changed and is supposedly going to cause a hull loss.

aviatorhi
10-28-2017, 02:09 AM
Ok, so, before I couldn't carry them on and now I can't check them... so should I ship it by sea next time?

Hetman
10-28-2017, 05:32 AM
Ok, so, before I couldn't carry them on and now I can't check them... so should I ship it by sea next time?

https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimage s%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTtEvU76sryshSpH-Y2Ai0oGtHYlye12HVkkJ_4sm9LNSLr2bFy&sp=ad3044b2e353d3c622e98a3e9153450b&anticache=274630

bajthejino
10-28-2017, 06:46 AM
https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimage s%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTtEvU76sryshSpH-Y2Ai0oGtHYlye12HVkkJ_4sm9LNSLr2bFy&sp=ad3044b2e353d3c622e98a3e9153450b&anticache=274630

Truth m8.

This article really opened my eyes. I will no longer check my laptop with my aerosol shampoo taped to it with my portable heater on (also battery operated) pressed next to it. I guess I'll have to pack 2 bags now. And turn my heater off. Gawd!

Frankie Avalon
10-28-2017, 09:28 AM
What, exactly, is going to cause the hull loss?

I think it's clear from the thread title that his motivation is a little more political than factual, to put it kindly...

SonicFlyer
10-28-2017, 10:43 PM
This article really opened my eyes. I will no longer check my laptop with my aerosol shampoo taped to it with my portable heater on (also battery operated) pressed next to it. I guess I'll have to pack 2 bags now. And turn my heater off. Gawd!Why do you hate America?

JetBlueNewb
01-01-2018, 07:15 AM
Truth m8.

This article really opened my eyes. I will no longer check my laptop with my aerosol shampoo taped to it with my portable heater on (also battery operated) pressed next to it. I guess I'll have to pack 2 bags now. And turn my heater off. Gawd!

New FAA guidelines are to place nitroglycerin bottles of less than 3oz (that's the maximum) in a separate checked bag than your illegally transported ill-tempered wolverines.

tm602
01-05-2018, 10:27 AM
Oooo! YAY! More "Trump's fault!" I just cant get enough of the left/right, red/ blue, tastes great/less filling cacophony.

Thank you, bay982, for making the world a better place.

Why not? Everything from global warning to my flat tire has been Bush's fault. The Golden One had 8 years of free-for-all screwups, and it was still Bush's fault for everything. Now we have a new Red in Trump to blame for everything.