Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Please explain your retro payout


Jcabesa
10-20-2017, 02:23 PM
F9 guy here, Iím hoping someone can share some details on how your retro payout agreement was settled.

Was it a simple {(New Rate - Old Rate) x Times Min guarantee}, or was extra/premium trips also included?

Was it paid as a one lump sum or spread out over a period of time?

We are going thru our own negotiations over here and you guys are the most recent recipients of a retro payout Iím aware of.


SlipKid
10-20-2017, 04:48 PM
F9 guy here, Iím hoping someone can share some details on how your retro payout agreement was settled.

Was it a simple {(New Rate - Old Rate) x Times Min guarantee}, or was extra/premium trips also included?

Was it paid as a one lump sum or spread out over a period of time?

We are going thru our own negotiations over here and you guys are the most recent recipients of a retro payout Iím aware of.

We got almost full retro on what we actually flew during the 4 years that the company and SWApA dragged out "negotiations".

It was paid out in a lump sum.

We didn't get retro for 2012, since SWApA "negotiated" an awesome side letter that netted us a (performance based) 0% raise that year, which we enthusiastically ratified, giving us the privilege of flying the 800 for the same rates AND a year contract extension.

You can't make this stuff up folks.

Jcabesa
10-21-2017, 02:21 PM
We got almost full retro on what we actually flew during the 4 years that the company and SWApA dragged out "negotiations".

It was paid out in a lump sum.

We didn't get retro for 2012, since SWApA "negotiated" an awesome side letter that netted us a (performance based) 0% raise that year, which we enthusiastically ratified, giving us the privilege of flying the 800 for the same rates AND a year contract extension.

You can't make this stuff up folks.


Thank you.


PropPiedmont
10-21-2017, 05:33 PM
Also, the retro included 401K and profit sharing amounts.

shootr
10-22-2017, 06:10 AM
Also, the retro included 401K and profit sharing amounts.

With an upper limit...

Sluggo_63
10-22-2017, 07:45 AM
We got almost full retro on what we actually flew during the 4 years that the company and SWApA dragged out "negotiations".
I hate to even ask this question, since I was accused of ďthrowing shadeĒ at SWA in another thread, but doesnít basing retro on actual TFPs flown reward ďundesirableĒ behavior during by contract negotiations? Wouldnít a better system be average TFP? Then folks wouldnít be so willing to help the company out during contract talks.

Sorry if this sounds like ďshade.Ē

SlipKid
10-22-2017, 09:14 AM
I hate to even ask this question, since I was accused of ďthrowing shadeĒ at SWA in another thread, but doesnít basing retro on actual TFPs flown reward ďundesirableĒ behavior during by contract negotiations? Wouldnít a better system be average TFP? Then folks wouldnít be so willing to help the company out during contract talks.

Sorry if this sounds like ďshade.Ē

Good question.....

This notion has been bandied about, but we have never been known for our "esprit de corps", especially if someone mentions that (gasp!) not flying on our days off might move the ball further down the field during negotiations. Heck, our last Union Prez actually worked premium during the MDW picket, as did a few other former union "reps".

Given our demographics and abysmal, concessionary, voting record, the way we did it was probably the best overall, and far better than most of "us" would've voted YES! for.

Sluggo_63
10-22-2017, 09:34 AM
Good question.....

This notion has been bandied about, but we have never been known for our "esprit de corps", especially if someone mentions that (gasp!) not flying on our days off might move the ball further down the field during negotiations. Heck, our last Union Prez actually worked premium during the MDW picket, as did a few other former union "reps".

Given our demographics and abysmal, concessionary, voting record, the way we did it was probably the best overall, and far better than most of "us" would've voted YES! for.Understood. We had our share of ďindependent contractorsĒ during our last CBA negotiations as well.

Beans
10-22-2017, 10:38 AM
I hate to even ask this question, since I was accused of ďthrowing shadeĒ at SWA in another thread, but doesnít basing retro on actual TFPs flown reward ďundesirableĒ behavior during by contract negotiations? Wouldnít a better system be average TFP? Then folks wouldnít be so willing to help the company out during contract talks.

Sorry if this sounds like ďshade.Ē

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner! Basing retro on TFP only rewards the selfish fat chewers who could give 2 shi$&ís about the group as a whole. So just remember when you see those guys/gals in the terminal that in the end their behavior cost the group money. They got retro on all that fat while you flew the contract and sucked it up for the group. The fat chewers should be called out at every opportunity.

Ihateusernames
10-22-2017, 01:19 PM
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner! Basing retro on TFP only rewards the selfish fat chewers who could give 2 shi$&ís about the group as a whole. So just remember when you see those guys/gals in the terminal that in the end their behavior cost the group money. They got retro on all that fat while you flew the contract and sucked it up for the group. The fat chewers should be called out at every opportunity.



The union never said not to pick up trips. So claim whatever you want. I didn't during any picket because I was at them. That being said, I expected those who were haters to pick up. They are known future scabs. They will hopefully get theirs. Hell out ex-president now works for company labor. He could have a heart attack for all I care. He will get ignored and made fun of just like MS every time he is at the doubletree bar except he didn't **** a secretary. That we know of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gipple
10-22-2017, 01:36 PM
he didn't **** a secretary.

No, but he did **** the entire membership.

SlipKid
10-22-2017, 04:02 PM
No, but he did **** the entire membership.

Well, "we" DID bend over for it........:eek:

e6bpilot
10-22-2017, 04:39 PM
SWAPA is a funny animal. The contract would have been settled in about 5 days if we could have legally stopped picking up open time. But the union told us not to....so we didnít.
Not only is the union rightfully scared of getting their asses handed to them in a lawsuit, but they are afraid to show the obvious cracks that would form if we really went to the mat and the koolies had to make an actual choice.
Itís a shame, really. The union leadership is super energized, but there are a large percentage of our members that have never gotten it and never will.

Beans
10-22-2017, 05:47 PM
The union never said not to pick up trips. So claim whatever you want. I didn't during any picket because I was at them. That being said, I expected those who were haters to pick up. They are known future scabs. They will hopefully get theirs. Hell out ex-president now works for company labor. He could have a heart attack for all I care. He will get ignored and made fun of just like MS every time he is at the doubletree bar except he didn't **** a secretary. That we know of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A fat chewer will always have excuses for his/her behavior. Of course the union wont come out and say ďdont pick up open timeĒ because it can be looked at as a job action. What they can say is fly the contract. It doesent take a rocket scientist pilot to figure out that during negotiations you dont whor yourself out. Selfish fat chewers always have a laundry list of excuses so dont wast your time with listing any. We need to make it known to these pilots that their behavior cost the rest of the group holding the line. If you dont have the gumption to call them out then you are part of the problem condoning it.

WHACKMASTER
10-23-2017, 02:47 AM
A fat chewer will always have excuses for his/her behavior. Of course the union wont come out and say ďdont pick up open timeĒ because it can be looked at as a job action. What they can say is fly the contract. It doesent take a rocket scientist pilot to figure out that during negotiations you dont whor yourself out. Selfish fat chewers always have a laundry list of excuses so dont wast your time with listing any. We need to make it known to these pilots that their behavior cost the rest of the group holding the line. If you dont have the gumption to call them out then you are part of the problem condoning it.

Unfortunately, a union canít even say ďfly the contractĒ anymore because if that causes any change in status quo then theyíre getting sued and the court WILL side in the company's favor.

Itís a sad state of affairs. The RLA needs to go!!!

SlipKid
10-25-2017, 06:57 AM
Unfortunately, a union canít even say ďfly the contractĒ anymore because if that causes any change in status quo then theyíre getting sued and the court WILL side in the company's favor.

Itís a sad state of affairs. The RLA needs to go!!!

The biggest problem, even if they could legally suggest flying the contract, is that the level of participation, or the lack thereof, would show just how "united" we are as a group. And that's not a good thing.

Most SW pilots can't imagine not working on their days off.

Cflapjack
10-25-2017, 08:41 AM
We got almost full retro on what we actually flew during the 4 years that the company and SWApA dragged out "negotiations".


How would a reserve have been paid out if it was actual flying?

SlipKid
10-25-2017, 10:06 AM
How would a reserve have been paid out if it was actual flying?

I don't sit reserve, so I might be wrong, but it was based on your actual TFP for the period, so I assume that the reserves got what they actually did like line holders.

hoover
10-25-2017, 01:36 PM
The line of thought that reserves only do something if they're actually flying is getting old. Over the holidays if you're out flying you get a free turkey dinner and something for xmas. Not so if you're sitting away from home not with your family on reserve but didn't actually fly.

SlipKid
10-25-2017, 03:54 PM
The line of thought that reserves only do something if they're actually flying is getting old. Over the holidays if you're out flying you get a free turkey dinner and something for xmas. Not so if you're sitting away from home not with your family on reserve but didn't actually fly.

Our reserve system sucks, which is why I won't ever sit it. I don't fly fly on holidays anymore, either, for that matter.

I agree that the company treats reserve like paid days off, which is why you get less guaranteed tfp per day of reserve vs. a lineholder. The reality is quite different.

flyguy81
10-25-2017, 04:25 PM
Iíd bid rsv if you could elitt rsv blocks.

SlipKid
10-25-2017, 05:12 PM
Iíd bid rsv if you could elitt rsv blocks.

I'd consider bidding reserve if:

We had a long call option.

Min daily pay was the same as a line holder.

There was a seniority based (gasp!) pass or fly system.

Blocks were elitt-able.

You were guaranteed to be released after your last leg on the last day.

Barring that, I am am not ever gonna bid it.

flyguy81
10-25-2017, 08:10 PM
I'd consider bidding reserve if:

We had a long call option.

Min daily pay was the same as a line holder.

There was a seniority based (gasp!) pass or fly system.

Blocks were elitt-able.

You were guaranteed to be released after your last leg on the last day.

Barring that, I am am not ever gonna bid it.

I live in base and 40 mi from the airport. Got a buddy who worked 2 days this month on rsv. Thatís a lot of getting paid to go mountain biking.

ANGFlight81
10-26-2017, 03:37 PM
On another note, what was the percentage of profit sharing last year? Looks like this years will be higher per discussion on the earnings call.

flyguy81
10-26-2017, 07:21 PM
On another note, what was the percentage of profit sharing last year? Looks like this years will be higher per discussion on the earnings call.

13% or so. More people on the payroll too so not sure how itíll pan out. Iím guessing 12% or so for this year.

RJSAviator76
10-27-2017, 11:50 AM
I'd consider bidding reserve if:


There was a seniority based (gasp!) pass or fly system.



That right there!

I've traded my trips with a reserve a few times. Despite my seniority and Pass preference, a junior guy got to stay home while I flew because he had MTD utilization (on reserve only) than me. The way this pilot group disregards seniority and the benefits of seniority is nothing short of epic.

SlipKid
10-27-2017, 09:18 PM
That right there!

I've traded my trips with a reserve a few times. Despite my seniority and Pass preference, a junior guy got to stay home while I flew because he had MTD utilization (on reserve only) than me. The way this pilot group disregards seniority and the benefits of seniority is nothing short of epic.

Yup.... After we finish screwing up vacation bidding, we're gonna address our "unfair" monthly line bidding system, you know, where the senior folks get ALL the weekends and holidays off! :eek:

Psycho18th
10-28-2017, 08:21 AM
Iím new to this entire way of doing business, so sorry in advance for the newbie question.

Didnít guys who are senior now, spend a good portion of their career when they were junior benefiting from the same things in the contract they want changed now that they are senior? Or is it just with experience, you see the inadequacy of the contract better?

SlipKid
10-28-2017, 06:13 PM
Iím new to this entire way of doing business, so sorry in advance for the newbie question.

Didnít guys who are senior now, spend a good portion of their career when they were junior benefiting from the same things in the contract they want changed now that they are senior? Or is it just with experience, you see the inadequacy of the contract better?

If you're referring to the vacation vote, it's the other way around.

The senior, who have waited decades to be senior and are now in position to benefit from the existing system don't want it changed.

A certain, very vocal, junior, but close to retirement pilot has been pushing this agenda because it will benefit him, while ultimately screwing the vast majority of our list.

Ironically, the (currently) junior folks who have many years left on the property are the ones who are going to, ultimately, pay the highest price for this give back, both in QOL and vacation pay.

e6bpilot
10-28-2017, 06:31 PM
If you're referring to the vacation vote, it's the other way around.



The senior, who have waited decades to be senior and are now in position to benefit from the existing system don't want it changed.



A certain, very vocal, junior, but close to retirement pilot has been pushing this agenda because it will benefit him, while ultimately screwing the vast majority of our list.



Ironically, the (currently) junior folks who have many years left on the property are the ones who are going to, ultimately, pay the highest price for this give back, both in QOL and vacation pay.



This information is completely false. Dear lord.
The real story is that our vacation block bidding system unfairly stacks the summer weeks of vacation to the ultra senior. They then trade them out of seniority to whomever they choose. The guys who benefit from this did not wait decades as alluded to above. They upgraded fast and have been super senior for a long time. There are, however, guys who have waited a decade or more in a seat and still canít hold a Summer week, which are gobbled up by the top 20 percent or so in the first round. Also, block bidding 4-5 weeks and trading for other premium weeks has only been a thing for a few years since the advent of computer trading plus the knowledge that you could take advantage of it like that has made it possible.
The membership of swapa has spoken, and they want it changed. There was a movement to change it a few years ago under an old swapa regime but it was, not shockingly, buried in a heap of manure.
This isnít being led by few junior guys with an agenda. It has been repeatedly voted on by the entire pilot group.
Being senior means you get the first pick, not the whole thing. Nobody is suggesting changing anything else that seniority gets you and everyone gets how this is going to play out in their future, even the dumb junior folks that you are trying to protect from themselves.

RJSAviator76
10-28-2017, 07:09 PM
This information is completely false. Dear lord.
The real story is that our vacation block bidding system unfairly stacks the summer weeks of vacation to the ultra senior. They then trade them out of seniority to whomever they choose. The guys who benefit from this did not wait decades as alluded to above. They upgraded fast and have been super senior for a long time. There are, however, guys who have waited a decade or more in a seat and still canít hold a Summer week, which are gobbled up by the top 20 percent or so in the first round. Also, block bidding 4-5 weeks and trading for other premium weeks has only been a thing for a few years since the advent of computer trading plus the knowledge that you could take advantage of it like that has made it possible.
The membership of swapa has spoken, and they want it changed. There was a movement to change it a few years ago under an old swapa regime but it was, not shockingly, buried in a heap of manure.
This isnít being led by few junior guys with an agenda. It has been repeatedly voted on by the entire pilot group.
Being senior means you get the first pick, not the whole thing. Nobody is suggesting changing anything else that seniority gets you and everyone gets how this is going to play out in their future, even the dumb junior folks that you are trying to protect from themselves.



Youíre describing seniority system working as it should and not liking having to wait.

At the same time, youíre also describing not liking the trading system between people of different seniority..

And the idea to Ďfixí this is to do away with the earned benefit of seniority for the more senior so now a junior guy like me with 2 weeks of vacation gets to bid all of his allotted blocks the first round while more senior guys who have 4 weeks vacation for example will only get to use their additional weeks after all the junior guys have already taken all theirs. In essence, this will work great for the junior crowd at the expense of the senior guys with more earned vacation...

e6bpilot
10-28-2017, 07:16 PM
Dude I am all about waiting for the benefits of seniority. Show me another seniority list that weights seniority like we do with vacation bidding and I will cede your point. Hint...there isnít one because it is ludicrous.

I get it...senior folks get the best stuff as they should. If you want to compare our vacation system with Line bidding as I have heard many do, it is like 15 percent of the group getting to go in to the pool of trips before everyone else and put together their line with all the awesome trips they want. It just doesnít work that way.

I am for unrestricted vacation trading, but the system we have now hugely benefits cartel players and ďgood dudes from the unitĒ and leaves out the guys who just want to bid the weeks they are actually going to use.

e6bpilot
10-28-2017, 07:26 PM
Also, block bidding has been bastardized beyond all recognition. Itís original intent was to allow someone to bid a block of weeks off.
It has turned into a currency grab.
I am mid seniority in my base and am just starting to see some good stuff...weekends off, occasionally winning an open time bid, etc. I want to protect that but I also want to be realistic about it.

ZapBrannigan
10-29-2017, 02:06 AM
I would have been happy leaving things alone but with one caveat - you bid a block, you keep (or trade) as a block. That would have solved the problem too. But that wasnít the option.

Think of it like the buffet line at Thanksgiving dinner. Right now the senior guy is first (as he should). He gets to the turkey, but instead of cutting a great slice for himself, he cuts 5 great slices and then trades them for good slices of pie, stuffing etc. Then the next most senior guy does the same. By the time the line is halfway through, there isnít much left of the turkey OR the pie OR the stuffing.

Worse yet, a lot of the senior guys donít even plan on eating their turkey. (Hereís where the analogy falls apart)

They bid those summer weeks and then fly over top of them or between them amassing astonishing credit totals. Yes, it probably prevents some unwanted JA, but it is also taking vacation that a young family might have used to spend time together while their children are still in the house. With upgrade times in the 10-15 year range it is not at all unlikely that a pilots child could grow up and go off to college without ever enjoying a summer vacation with their parents.

So Iím voting for what I believe is most fair. There are 5 rounds of bidding. Pilots should bid one week per round in seniority order. Then trade all you want. Is that fair to the senior folks who should have some more premium weeks for their 3rd through 5th weeks? No, but they have created this mess by their misuse of block bidding and vacation trade in a manner that the architects of the system never intended.

Iíll have to trust that JW and SWAPA will address the low vacation inventory during premium weeks at some point in the future. Until then, I think that itís reasonable for someone in the top 40-50% of the list (in each domicile) to see some summer vacation without tactically having to bid what they ďthinkĒ senior folks will want to trade for and then hope that they find a trading partner.

After working for quite a few Airlines there is a lot to love about SWA, but this vacation system is a dumpster fire. I almost wish we had PBS just because it would instantly put all of this senior vs junior garbage to rest.

Oh, and itís not really senior vs ďjuniorĒ is it? The junior folks realize they probably arenít getting summer vacation. Itís senior (0%-20%) vs a little less senior (30%-60%) that are trying to carve a life out of a system that evolved back when the airline had 5 year upgrades.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PropPiedmont
10-29-2017, 07:39 AM
They bid those summer weeks and then fly over top of them or between them amassing astonishing credit totals. Yes, it probably prevents some unwanted JA, but it is also taking vacation that a young family might have used to spend time together while their children are still in the house. With upgrade times in the 10-15 year range it is not at all unlikely that a pilots child could grow up and go off to college without ever enjoying a summer vacation with their parents.


Iíll have to trust that JW and SWAPA will address the low vacation inventory during premium weeks at some point in the future. Until then, I think that itís reasonable for someone in the top 40-50% of the list (in each domicile) to see some summer vacation without tactically having to bid what they ďthinkĒ senior folks will want to trade for and then hope that they find a trading partner.


The reason why the 2nd paragraph wonít pan out is because of the 1st paragraph. Sounds pretty insane for SWAPA to approach the company and ask for more summer vacation slots. SWA will respond with, ĎYou want more slots for guys to fly over top of? Sounds like we have given you guys too many summer slots.í

SlipKid
10-29-2017, 08:53 AM
This information is completely false. Dear lord.

Really? Then why haven't you refuted even one thing I stated?


The real story is that our vacation block bidding system unfairly stacks the summer weeks of vacation to the ultra senior.

"Unfairly". They're SENIOR, which doesn't mean a whole lot here at the Trailways. The vacation system is one of the few bennies you earn over the junior folks when you get senior.


They then trade them out of seniority to whomever they choose.

See above.


The guys who benefit from this did not wait decades as alluded to above. They upgraded fast and have been super senior for a long time.

Completely false. I've been here 22 years and although I am finally moving up in the last few years, I am still not "super senior". And yet, I have worked a total of 6 Christmases and maybe the equal number of Thanksgivings in all that time. Like the now eviscerated (by the majority, BTW) LC program used to do, our current system works and benefits the entire group. Again, like the eviscerated LC program, the proposed systems will hurt the entire group overall, in the short AND the long run.


There are, however, guys who have waited a decade or more in a seat and still can’t hold a Summer week, which are gobbled up by the top 20 percent or so in the first round.

BS. The only time I was ever IN the "top 20%" in domicile was the last year I was an FO. For over 10 years, I was stuck at around the 50% mark in domicile, and only worked 3 out of 10 Christmases in all that time. I was able to block bid and get awarded 5 summer weeks (june into July)4 years ago when I was mid 30% ish in domicile, so I am not buying the BS that these guys can't get ANY good weeks.

Also, block bidding 4-5 weeks and trading for other premium weeks has only been a thing for a few years since the advent of computer trading plus the knowledge that you could take advantage of it like that has made it possible.

Really? How long have you been here?

Block bidding and trading has been going on as long as I've been here. True, it was done via paper trades before, but it was still done, and I personally benefitted from it, when I was JUNIOR, on many occasions.



The membership of swapa has spoken, and they want it changed.

Less than 50% of us have "spoken" this time. This will be decided by a very small "majority". The "winning" solution will be decided by less than 20% of the pilot group.

Not that it really matters, this pilot group has "spoken" dozens of times over the years, and we are all still paying for most of those majority votes.


There was a movement to change it a few years ago under an old swapa regime but it was, not shockingly, buried in a heap of manure.

Yeah, the same vocal minority tried it last time.

This isn’t being led by few junior guys with an agenda.

It most certainly is. Look at the guy most vocal about it. He's getting close to retirement and is junior. This will benefit him, because when this passes, he might get one "prime" week per year for the few years until he retires. The problem is, that the rest of us, including you, will too, but for the rest of our careers. Of course, he's willing to trade off your earned seniority, because it will never negatively affect him.

It has been repeatedly voted on by the entire pilot group.

So were a multitude of other QOL and pay concessions that the pilot group wholeheartedly endorsed and subsequently regretted. See the last contract and all 17 of it's concessionary side letters.

Being senior means you get the first pick, not the whole thing. Nobody is suggesting changing anything else that seniority gets you and everyone gets how this is going to play out in their future, even the dumb junior folks that you are trying to protect from themselves.

Really? What's the difference?

The senior guys get ALL of the prime weekday lines now, and often give away and trade them around with folks junior to them.

Why wouldn't the junior guys start pushing to further subrogate our seniority system?

After we give away vacation, line bidding is about all that's left that benefits the senior folks. Why not just use this SJW momentum to kill it now, in the interest of "fairness"?

Isn't one weekend off a month now better than having every weekend off several years from now, and for the rest of your career? :eek:

Substitute vacation weeks for weekends, and this is, effectively, what you're voting for.

Very short sighted

SlipKid
10-29-2017, 11:18 AM
So Iím voting for what I believe is most fair. There are 5 rounds of bidding. Pilots should bid one week per round in seniority order. Then trade all you want. Is that fair to the senior folks who should have some more premium weeks for their 3rd through 5th weeks? No, but they have created this mess by their misuse of block bidding and vacation trade in a manner that the architects of the system never intended.

At least youíre honest about the ďfairnessĒ of the likely outcome, and that it IS a punitive effort towards the few that you feel abused their seniority. The sad thing is that most of you are cutting off your own noses, to spite your collective face. The rest of us are getting screwed too. Thanks. :eek:

As long as those evil senior guys get their due punishment, youíre willing to take one, well, a bunch, for the team!



After working for quite a few Airlines there is a lot to love about SWA, but this vacation system is a dumpster fire. I almost wish we had PBS just because it would instantly put all of this senior vs junior garbage to rest.

There it is......... PBS.......

The Godwinís Law argument anytime SW pilots disagree.

Yeah, PBS will certainly put those evil senior guys in their place and improve the lives of the junior. ;)

ZapBrannigan
10-29-2017, 11:32 AM
PBS would never build a line with overlaps in the first place. So there wouldnít be all of this jockeying for position to get two weeks separated by one work week.

Do I want that? Heck no! Our vacation overlap scheme is one of the best QOL benefits we enjoy here. But Iíd rather that we lose that benefit to at least level the playing field.

I know what number I am in base. (Letís day itís 200 out of 400) so I know that if I bid 201 choices in my monthly bid, Iíll get one of those.

With the vacation bidding scheme there is virtually no way to count 200 vacation weeks and figure out what I can hold. Because the folks above are bidding anywhere from 1 to 5 weeks that they may or may not ever intend to use.

We arenít going to agree here. Like I said, I wouldíve been happy had we just locked the block. But we are where we are and we all get one vote. My prediction is that even IF we vote 1 or 3 in this and IF SWA agrees to make the change... the pilot group will vote it down in the final side letter vote. SWAPA will then have about 2 years to figure out a way to bring the B-scale vacation folks who voted for a change back into the unity fold before 2020.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SlipKid
10-30-2017, 08:00 AM
PBS would never build a line with overlaps in the first place. So there wouldn’t be all of this jockeying for position to get two weeks separated by one work week.

This is, specifically, one of the major reasons that PBS is a non starter here. Being able to turn 4-5 weeks of vacation into 2-3+ months off is huge. Why would you even consider giving that away?

Unfortunately, one week per round will effectively do the same thing, or at least make it much harder to do so. You're trading that, admittedly later, benefit away in order to get awarded one "good" week a year or 2 earlier.

The irony is that you're also giving away the chance of getting a "good" week even earlier because one week per round is going to virtually eliminate vacation trading of the "good" weeks. While I am sure it will happen once in a while, who's gonna trade their ONE "good" week away, unless it's for another "good" week?

Do I want that? Heck no! Our vacation overlap scheme is one of the best QOL benefits we enjoy here. But I’d rather that we lose that benefit to at least level the playing field.

I agree that the vacation overlap pull is one of the best QOL benefits here.

So, which is it?

Are you seriously suggesting that in addition to giving away one of the few amazing benefits we have here, you're also willing to completely destroy your schedule every single month for the next 20+ years you've got left with PBS, in order to "level the playing field" for vacation bidding that affects you, at most, 5 times per year?

You do realize that you won't be junior forever, right?

I hope I misunderstood you......


I know what number I am in base. (Let’s day it’s 200 out of 400) so I know that if I bid 201 choices in my monthly bid, I’ll get one of those.

With the vacation bidding scheme there is virtually no way to count 200 vacation weeks and figure out what I can hold. Because the folks above are bidding anywhere from 1 to 5 weeks that they may or may not ever intend to use.

Same here. So?

We aren’t going to agree here. Like I said, I would’ve been happy had we just locked the block.

"Locking the block" would've been worse than one week per round. Not only would you be losing the benefit of big blocks of time off, you'd giving away tens of thousands of $$$ in vacation pull back to the company if you chose to block bid to get that time off. You'd, literally, be giving away every "middle" vacation week for free if you block bid.

But we are where we are and we all get one vote. My prediction is that even IF we vote 1 or 3 in this and IF SWA agrees to make the change... the pilot group will vote it down in the final side letter vote.


That's my hope. Too bad SWAPA squandered away the hard won, unprecedented unity we had last year with this ill thought out (if it even was thought out) vacation poll.


SWAPA will then have about 2 years to figure out a way to bring the B-scale vacation folks who voted for a change back into the unity fold before 2020.

Hopefully, those who are currently voting for the B Scale vacation (one week per round) will win by losing, and they'll put forth a more reasonable solution, but I doubt it. We never learn around here.

ZapBrannigan
10-30-2017, 11:05 AM
The funny thing is, that I only care about summer vacation for about the next 6 years.

After that, Iíll go back to the spring/fall vacations that Iíve always enjoyed in the past. Thatís the thing you folks donít seem to understand. I wonít be junior forever, but Iíll be too junior for summer vacation for most - if not all - of the next six years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flyguy81
10-30-2017, 11:16 AM
The funny thing is, that I only care about summer vacation for about the next 6 years.

After that, Iíll go back to the spring/fall vacations that Iíve always enjoyed in the past. Thatís the thing you folks donít seem to understand. I wonít be junior forever, but Iíll be too junior for summer vacation for most - if not all - of the next six years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My kids are elementary school age...so I've got roughly 15 years until the youngest is off to college. I'll likely be senior enough to get summer vacation before they leave...at some point. Right now I'm getting their fall break off. I get seniority has it's perks but no reason someone junior to me should get a week in summer because a senior guy feels like trading with them. I'd leave the system as is if you could devise a globally based seniority trading system (bases don't matter since after the award you can trade with whomever you want)

SlipKid
10-30-2017, 11:47 AM
The funny thing is, that I only care about summer vacation for about the next 6 years.

Unbelievable. You're willing to give up amazing QOL for the rest of your career for the slight chance that you'll be awarded one summer week in the next 6 years....... :eek:

You have a far better chance of actually getting a summer week under the current system than you will under either of the choices we're voting on.



After that, I’ll go back to the spring/fall vacations that I’ve always enjoyed in the past. That’s the thing you folks don’t seem to understand. I won’t be junior forever, but I’ll be too junior for summer vacation for most - if not all - of the next six years.

So why, exactly, are you voting to screw up the entire system?

The current choices are unlikely to make a positive difference for you short term, and will definitely harm you, big time, in the long run.

As I said above, you will be far less likely to actually get a summer week with either of the choices we're voting on.

ZapBrannigan
10-30-2017, 12:22 PM
What you arenít understanding is that all votes are personal. Pilots with kids at home just want the chance, seniority permitting, to take one lousy week of vacation in the summer.

You arenít empathizing with them. You arenít understanding where they are coming from. Your only response is ďyouíll be senior someday, then youíll see.Ē

Iím Sorry. You canít expect me to vote to preserve this scheme for you when you canít even acknowledge that a problem exists from my perspective.

Iím not doing anything to you. I only have one vote. The other 8998 pilots will ultimately make this decision. I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from, even if we donít agree on the choices before us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SlipKid
10-30-2017, 01:15 PM
What you arenít understanding is that all votes are personal. Pilots with kids at home just want the chance, seniority permitting, to take one lousy week of vacation in the summer.

Do you think you're the only pilot with kids at home and can't get vacation during their breaks? I have 2 kids, and was exactly where you are right now, and made do, like every other pilot here. Given the current choices, I would not have changed a thing, because, after 7 airlines, I understand and more importantly, accept how seniority works, regardless of my particular domestic situation.

You arenít empathizing with them. You arenít understanding where they are coming from. Your only response is ďyouíll be senior someday, then youíll see.Ē

Sorry I wasn't as obviously sympathetic to your plight as you'd have liked me to be. I truly feel bad that a guy that has been here less than 4 years can't get everything he wants. :rolleyes:

Iím Sorry. You canít expect me to vote to preserve this scheme for you when you canít even acknowledge that a problem exists from my perspective.

You're hurting yourself far more than you're hurting me by voting one week per round. What "problem" haven't I acknowledged?

Iím not doing anything to you.

Actually, by voting one week per round, you are "doing" something to me, not to mention yourself and anyone else that's gonna be here more than a few years.

I only have one vote. The other 8998 pilots will ultimately make this decision.

LOL... We won't even get HALF of them to vote on this. This is up to a few vocal folks, fostering an agenda that benefits them.


I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from, even if we donít agree on the choices before us.

Ditto. You'll be here long after I'm retired, so please consider the harm you're doing to both of our careers before voting to give away the store. :eek:

ZapBrannigan
10-30-2017, 01:42 PM
I give up. Call your rep. They sent out the choices. All Iím going to do is vote.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RJSAviator76
10-30-2017, 01:56 PM
Dude I am all about waiting for the benefits of seniority. Show me another seniority list that weights seniority like we do with vacation bidding and I will cede your point. Hint...there isnít one because it is ludicrous.

If change voters get their way? Not one... because the rest of the US airline world goes by seniority, and not by feelings and/or someone's idea of "fairness."

Compare a 7th year FO with 3 weeks of vacation and a 2nd year FO with 2 weeks. 7th year FO gets to bid on his 3rd week after 2nd FO chose both of his. If you think that doesn't violate seniority order, I don't know what to tell you.


I get it...senior folks get the best stuff as they should. If you want to compare our vacation system with Line bidding as I have heard many do, it is like 15 percent of the group getting to go in to the pool of trips before everyone else and put together their line with all the awesome trips they want. It just doesnít work that way.

I am for unrestricted vacation trading, but the system we have now hugely benefits cartel players and ďgood dudes from the unitĒ and leaves out the guys who just want to bid the weeks they are actually going to use.

Sorry man, love your posts, but I don't think you couldn't be any more wrong about this along with all of you option 1 and 3 voters. Your idea of dealing with a headache seems to involve a gun to your head.

We had a pure seniority option where everyone could bid their weeks in one go and allow unlimited trading as well. If the change voters actually cared about seniority, then Option 7 (one round - unlimited trading) would have won hands down as that is the option that is literally pure seniority order. But honoring seniority is clearly not the intent of the change voters... hence the pure seniority option getting only 6.25% of the vote.

flyguy81
10-30-2017, 03:44 PM
If change voters get their way? Not one... because the rest of the US airline world goes by seniority, and not by feelings and/or someone's idea of "fairness."

Compare a 7th year FO with 3 weeks of vacation and a 2nd year FO with 2 weeks. 7th year FO gets to bid on his 3rd week after 2nd FO chose both of his. If you think that doesn't violate seniority order, I don't know what to tell you.



Sorry man, love your posts, but I don't think you couldn't be any more wrong about this along with all of you option 1 and 3 voters. Your idea of dealing with a headache seems to involve a gun to your head.

We had a pure seniority option where everyone could bid their weeks in one go and allow unlimited trading as well. If the change voters actually cared about seniority, then Option 7 (one round - unlimited trading) would have won hands down as that is the option that is literally pure seniority order. But honoring seniority is clearly not the intent of the change voters... hence the pure seniority option getting only 6.25% of the vote.

If you weren't bidding a block, the 7 yr guy would be bidding his 3rd week after the 2nd yr guy bids his 2nd and final week. *gasp*

That's kinda why there's 5 rounds.

RJSAviator76
10-30-2017, 03:46 PM
If you weren't bidding a block, the 7 yr guy would be bidding his 3rd week after the 2nd yr guy bids his 2nd and final week. *gasp*



That's kinda why there's 5 rounds.



Except a 7th year guy can *choose* to block bid all his weeks in a row as it stands now... something he definitely wonít be able to do if this goes through.

e6bpilot
10-30-2017, 04:18 PM
Whatever man. I voted. I suggest you do too. We disagree on the fundamentals of what seniority gets you. I want to protect seniority too, but not at the expense of the rest of the group. I guess thatís why the union is a democracy and not an oligarchy. You are insinuating that the 50 percent or so that bothered to vote are too stupid to understand what they are doing. I guess we will see.

RJSAviator76
10-30-2017, 04:32 PM
Whatever man. I voted. I suggest you do too. We disagree on the fundamentals of what seniority gets you. I want to protect seniority too, but not at the expense of the rest of the group. I guess thatís why the union is a democracy and not an oligarchy. You are insinuating that the 50 percent or so that bothered to vote are too stupid to understand what they are doing. I guess we will see.



I voted too. I donít think our pilot group is stupid, but I do think that many of us tend to be somewhat myopic and easily persuaded by short term gains while overlooking the long term implications.

Warhawg01
10-30-2017, 04:34 PM
The 7th year FO picks his first week before the 3rd year picks his.

The 7th year FO picks his second week before the 3rd year picks his.

The 7th year FO gets a third week to pick. 3rd year does not.

And this breaks seniority how exactly? Because he doesn't get to pick *everything* before the 3rd year FO?

RJSAviator76
10-30-2017, 04:58 PM
The 7th year FO picks his first week before the 3rd year picks his.

The 7th year FO picks his second week before the 3rd year picks his.

...unless that 3rd year FO took that week.


The 7th year FO gets a third week to pick. 3rd year does not.

Earned benefit of seniority.


And this breaks seniority how exactly? Because he doesn't get to pick *everything* before the 3rd year FO?

Just like that. 3rd year FO diluted the 7th year FO's ability to exercise the benefit that comes with seniority.

The fundamental question here is what is seniority and what should it govern? We've already diluted the benefits of seniority here in many ways... what's a few more?

SlipKid
10-30-2017, 08:47 PM
I give up. Call your rep. They sent out the choices.

I did, and they got an earful, and not just from me.


All I’m going to do is vote.



Me too.

I am done trying to talk you guys off the ledge.

Go ahead and jump. :eek:

flyguy81
10-30-2017, 08:51 PM
Seniority means first pick. Doesnít mean you pick everything first.

The only reason people are block bidding instead of using the 5 rounds is because itís been made into a monopoly. Thereís no reason to bid 5 weeks in a row when you can bid the 1st and 3rd week and get a month off. By taking weeks youíve no intention of using to use as a commodity and trade to people who probably couldnít hold that week youíre violating the seniority of everyone who was senior enough to bid the week in the first place.

Saying, ďthatís seniorityĒ is BS. Youíre not honoring seniority. Youíre bastardizing it...but as long as you get yours then who cares....amirite? I donít want to have to play games to get what my seniority level should entitle me to.

RJSAviator76
10-31-2017, 01:20 AM
So funny... we are arguing over the principles of seniority and what it should and shouldn't entail. Though I agree with you about vacation trading being a problem at times, I think our proposed fixes, Options 1 and 3 are going to be worse. Option 3 seems like the lesser of two evils. I supported Option 7 as it honors the earned benefits of seniority to a T and takes away any excuse for block bidding. Notice it only received 6.25% of the vote? That's why this is nothing more than chipping away further at the seniority system in some quest for 'fairness.'

Ever pick up a reserve block with you keeping a pass preference? If so, ever end up flying while someone way junior to you with the same number of days available ends up staying at home because your 'MTD utilization' on reserve is lower than his despite the fact that you've flown your line up until that point? Can't even apply the logic of spreading flight time evenly to this...

This will be no different as the relevance of one's seniority keeps slowly getting chipped away... I can only hope I'm proven wrong down the road.

RckyMtHigh
10-31-2017, 05:29 AM
Ever pick up a reserve block with you keeping a pass preference? If so, ever end up flying while someone way junior to you with the same number of days available ends up staying at home because your 'MTD utilization' on reserve is lower than his despite the fact that you've flown your line up until that point? Can't even apply the logic of spreading flight time evenly to this

Yeah, that needs fixing. At least there was an attempt to inject pilot preference into the reserve callout system, but it needs work still. As it is, it discourages reserve pickup unless itís the start of the month.

SlipKid
10-31-2017, 07:12 AM
That's why this is nothing more than chipping away further at the seniority system in some quest for 'fairness.'



Yup...... And the irony is that in our quest for "fairness", we're all gonna get screwed.

But at least we're all getting screwed "fairly".

Just when I thought this pilot group was starting to smarten up, they go old school and vote to screw themselves again, just like the old days.

You can't make this stuff up.

WHACKMASTER
10-31-2017, 07:21 AM
The amount of shameless greed displayed by some on this thread is utterly mind-blowing.

Smokey23
10-31-2017, 08:36 AM
Slip, I'm sorry that our vacation system is likely to change just as you are on the verge of reaching the Promised Land. :(

Try out this experiment on ten of your best non-airline friends or family: Explain to them how our vacation bidding/awards system works and ask them if that seems fair (i.e. respects seniority). I predict ten of ten would look at you as though you've just grown a second head, and laughingly tell you that is one effed-up way to spread the spoils. Seniority benefits really ought to accrue linearly, not exponentially. The current vacation system does the latter.

RJSAviator76
10-31-2017, 08:44 AM
Slip, I'm sorry that our vacation system is likely to change just as you are on the verge of reaching the Promised Land. :(

Try out this experiment on ten of your best non-airline friends or family: Explain to them how our vacation bidding/awards system works and ask them if that seems fair (i.e. respects seniority). I predict ten of ten would look at you as though you've just grown a second head, and laughingly tell you that is one effed-up way to spread the spoils. Seniority benefits really ought to accrue linearly, not exponentially. The current vacation system does the latter.



I already tried... and they cannot understand how come I am a 737 FO again having been a 737 captain prior to coming here with more time in 737ís than some of the captains Iím flying with. Maybe we should get rid of that little gem too since weíre dismantling seniority....

SlipKid
10-31-2017, 12:14 PM
Slip, I'm sorry that our vacation system is likely to change just as you are on the verge of reaching the Promised Land. :(

Iíve been getting what I want from our system for more years than not, and I have not been senior since the last year I was an FO.

You junior guys are screwing yourselves far more than Iíll get screwed in this deal.

Too bad you guys canít see it, because, once again, weíre all gonna pay for the ignorance of the majority.

As for asking my non airline friends about the vagaries of our job.......... youíre really reaching if thatís the platform of your argument.

squirtinvert
11-07-2017, 02:42 PM
The amount of shameless greed displayed by some on this thread is utterly mind-blowing.

Thatís what SW is all about. The greediest pilots I have seen want all the weeks of summer off. Pick up premium and donít care. This group is already not unified. We are the most efficient pilot group yet we have INDUSTRY LAGGING, reserve rules, B-fund, vacation weeks awarded, low pay years 3/5, guaranteed PTO/sick. As I was having a conversation with the captain I was flying with (nice guy) he talked about upgrading in 3 years. It became apparent that the very young and the very senior control this organization and donít understand and donít care about anyone else. I was chatting up the secretaries who I overheard talking about probies quitting. While understand a certain amount of movement is going to happen the amount turning in their headsets to a certain station was alarming. Looking at data for hiring 12,24 month numbers and the movement in YOY seniority shows a remarkable disparity. That being said every company has their kryptonite.

RJSAviator76
11-07-2017, 03:36 PM
That’s what SW is all about. The greediest pilots I have seen want all the weeks of summer off. Pick up premium and don’t care. This group is already not unified. We are the most efficient pilot group yet we have INDUSTRY LAGGING, reserve rules, B-fund, vacation weeks awarded, low pay years 3/5, guaranteed PTO/sick. As I was having a conversation with the captain I was flying with (nice guy) he talked about upgrading in 3 years. It became apparent that the very young and the very senior control this organization and don’t understand and don’t care about anyone else. I was chatting up the secretaries who I overheard talking about probies quitting. While understand a certain amount of movement is going to happen the amount turning in their headsets to a certain station was alarming. Looking at data for hiring 12,24 month numbers and the movement in YOY seniority shows a remarkable disparity. That being said every company has their kryptonite.

What makes our reserve rules, vacation weeks, pay, and sick leave industry-lagging in your opinion? I'd love to read your perspective.

ZapBrannigan
11-07-2017, 03:58 PM
Reserve rules: no long/short, no proffering of trips, no pre-release, must stay phone available on last day, limited trip ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ZapBrannigan
11-07-2017, 03:59 PM
Pay years 3-5 lag the pay progression at the legacies (catches up after year 5).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ipdanno
11-07-2017, 04:39 PM
Reserve rules: no long/short, no proffering of trips, no pre-release, must stay phone available on last day, limited trip ownership.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you think having long call/short call would drive the company to higher reserve percentages than currently staffed? Would that adversely change the Open Time market practices? Would that be voted in by the SWAPA force?

ZapBrannigan
11-07-2017, 05:04 PM
Do you think having long call/short call would drive the company to higher reserve percentages than currently staffed? Would that adversely change the Open Time market practices? Would that be voted in by the SWAPA force?


Hereís the bottom line. The vast majority of the companyís staffing challenges are the result of the misallocation of reserves.

At most companies reserves are like homeowners insurance. You hope you never have to use it, but when you do youíre sure glad you have it!

Here, they use all of tomorrowís reserves to cover open time that they donít want to pay premium for. So, when there are sick calls, snowstorms, or computer outages the result are reroutes and JAs.

The problem with shifting to a more traditional model is that it runs into conflict with the open time system. But right now almost 25% of the monthly flying is blank lines and reserve... a very ďlegacyĒ percentage. So we are running near-legacy reserve manning but without the legacy quality of life for reserve pilots.

Would the pilot group embrace such a change? Probably not unless the company covered all Ďfutureí open time at premium and preserved reserves for short call.

But that isnít what was asked... the original question was what was not industry-standard about the reserve system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ZapBrannigan
11-07-2017, 05:07 PM
By the way, one big item that squirt missed is commutable lines. It seems unconscionable that nearly 50% of the pilots commute but there are no lines written with commutable trips. They remain committed to the AM/PM model at the expense of quality of life for commuters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RJSAviator76
11-07-2017, 05:42 PM
Zap, conversely to offset some of the things you mentioned, you get 15 days off vs. 12 at legacies. You get pay per day or rigs vs. monthly guarantee... Seen guys put up some crazy numbers on reserve alone without picking up anything, simply on account of reroutes and move-ups. You don't get those at legacies on reserve. Some of my classmates are bidding reserve on purpose for that reason and they do pretty well.

As for commutability on reserve, I did PM reserve when I was commuting and in 3 months I commuted, I stayed in base on my own dime involuntarily for a total of 2 nights IIRC.

Regarding release the last day, you have 7 hours if not being used. If you're a commuter on a PM reserve, that means you catch the evening flight home. That's just been my experience. YMMV...

I do believe that long call reserve would damage open time substantially. One way to offset that would be trip ownership right away should you choose it, so when scheduling assigns you a trip, and you choose to own it, it should be yours from get go. As for sick calls... just for kicks, look at open time awards systemwide for tomorrow - Nov 8. Seems like a number of people forgot what TTGA is and they bid stuff at straight time. Some I can understand, but quite a few will make you scratch your head. Schedule will get covered by the greedy...

My personal gripes with reserves are further up the thread, but essentially not honoring seniority with regards to utilization. I have a problem when my pass preference gets trumped by someone junior to me simply because he's a reserve line holder, and as a line holder I picked up a block of reserve so my monthly utilization on reserve is 0 ergo I get to go while a junior pilot with the same preference stays home. Sorry... waving a major BS flag on that one. Another thing on my wish list is being able to ELITT reserve blocks for other open reserve blocks. If we could do that, I'd be bidding reserve every month without fail.

I think our reserve system is different and could be improved, but to say it's industry-lagging is just not true.

CA1900
11-07-2017, 06:15 PM
As for commutability on reserve, I did PM reserve when I was commuting and in 3 months I commuted, I stayed in base on my own dime involuntarily for a total of 2 nights IIRC.

I'm envious. I commute, and last week I got used for nothing but a turn on a 4-day reserve block. Three nights of hotel gets pretty damn expensive.

Regarding release the last day, you have 7 hours if not being used. If you're a commuter on a PM reserve, that means you catch the evening flight home. That's just been my experience. YMMV...

Definitely. With AM reserve, you have to come the night before. With PM reserve, there's at least a fair chance you'll be able to get home on the last day.

Burton78
11-07-2017, 06:51 PM
By the way, one big item that squirt missed is commutable lines. It seems unconscionable that nearly 50% of the pilots commute but there are no lines written with commutable trips. They remain committed to the AM/PM model at the expense of quality of life for commuters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I find this highly situationally dependent. It really depends on your base and where you live. I strictly fly PM's for this very reason (amongst others). With some tweaking of my schedule using ELITT to find trips that fit my commute, on several occasions I have gone multiple consecutive months without spending a night in base. I do agree however, that it would be nice if more lines were constructed with commuters in mind. Maybe 50% of them to include AMs? Then again, this could potentially dilute the efficiency of said lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

e6bpilot
11-07-2017, 07:10 PM
I am also able to commute the vast majority of my trips but I think that is more a function of where I live and preferring PM trips than anything else. Houston tends to have some PMs that get back pretty early and has a huge 10-10:30 push to repo planes so that they can catch the recoveries from the west coast. That results in a lot of commutable trips.
Our reserve rules do suck. Things are ok now since guys are spending 2-3 months on reserve and getting a line. When the music stops, though, and it will stop eventually, a big group of guys is going to hold the bag in both seats.
I personally like what we have here. We do have our warts, but overall itís a good job that puts food on the table and is semi enjoyable. I am always looking to improve our station in life and our contract needs a lot of improvement. Donít mistake me for a koolie, but life is pretty good in the big scheme of things.

ZapBrannigan
11-07-2017, 11:46 PM
15 days off... IF you live in domicile. If not, since reserve isnít commutable, youíll use 4-5 of those days off commuting to or from domicile. Right?

No argument on pay per day. Itís a huge win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RJSAviator76
11-08-2017, 03:15 AM
15 days off... IF you live in domicile. If not, since reserve isnít commutable, youíll use 4-5 of those days off commuting to or from domicile. Right?

Maybe if you do AM reserve... This certainly hasnít been my experience when I commuted to PM reserve... YMMV.

RJSAviator76
11-08-2017, 03:25 AM
I'm envious. I commute, and last week I got used for nothing but a turn on a 4-day reserve block. Three nights of hotel gets pretty damn expensive.



Sure! Do you have FLY preference? As a commuter, you should.

Also, do you have your reserve blocks in TTGA? Iíve had a 4-day reserve block picked up from me when I was on reserve and commuting and I also have picked up 3-day and 4-day blocks of reserve myself from TTGA.

CA1900
11-08-2017, 05:52 AM
Sure! Do you have FLY preference? As a commuter, you should.

Also, do you have your reserve blocks in TTGA?

Yes on both questions. What was especially frustrating is that they used me for the turn, and then the guy next on the list (doing the same 4-day reserve block) got a multi-day trip while I came back to base and sat for the rest of of the days.

Fortunately that's happened only once, but commuting to our reserve is not ideal. Moving to a domicile will make life much better, and I'm in the process of making that happen. Sooner the better!

Psycho18th
11-08-2017, 05:52 AM
Living 2 hours from 10 different airports is a pretty large swathe of the country to live in and avoid the commute. Has Southwest ever closed a pilot base thus forcing pilots to commute?

Different story for the DFW and CVG Delta Pilots. Those are just two that come to mind. That makes for a lot of commuters who didnít choose that life. If a pilot is commuting at SWA, didnít he know that going in and chose to give up those 4 days a month to live where he wanted?

RJSAviator76
11-08-2017, 05:56 AM
Yes on both questions. What was especially frustrating is that they used me for the turn, and then the guy next on the list (doing the same 4-day reserve block) got a multi-day trip while I came back to base and sat for the rest of of the days.



Fortunately that's happened only once, but commuting to our reserve is not ideal. Moving to a domicile will make life much better, and I'm in the process of making that happen. Sooner the better!


Also, pay attention to seniority and donít be afraid to call scheduling if you have questions or concerns or something doesnít seem right.

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 06:17 AM
Yes on both questions. What was especially frustrating is that they used me for the turn, and then the guy next on the list (doing the same 4-day reserve block) got a multi-day trip while I came back to base and sat for the rest of of the days.



Fortunately that's happened only once, but commuting to our reserve is not ideal. Moving to a domicile will make life much better, and I'm in the process of making that happen. Sooner the better!



You are going to see that scenario play out from October through March this year. It is a function of being overmanned due to the classic retirements. Last year at this time, the premium was still flowing like honey. Now we are adding almost 100 FOs every month and upgrades are slow until December and we are down about 50 planes from this time last year.
Once we plus up a few airplanes and get the upgrades done, I suspect it will even out into something that is manageable. Last year I got JAd every month from January to April. While it was fruitful, I personally prefer to make the decision on the days I work and not let someone do it for me.

Beans
11-08-2017, 06:37 AM
What you arenít understanding is that all votes are personal. Pilots with kids at home just want the chance, seniority permitting, to take one lousy week of vacation in the summer.

You arenít empathizing with them. You arenít understanding where they are coming from. Your only response is ďyouíll be senior someday, then youíll see.Ē

Iím Sorry. You canít expect me to vote to preserve this scheme for you when you canít even acknowledge that a problem exists from my perspective.

Iím not doing anything to you. I only have one vote. The other 8998 pilots will ultimately make this decision. I just wanted you to understand where I was coming from, even if we donít agree on the choices before us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude are you serious. You are basically saying screw seniority! So lets just take away seniority and longevity scales and make everyone ďequalĒ. Lets hand out participation trophies while we are at it!

full of luv
11-08-2017, 06:52 AM
Dude are you serious. You are basically saying screw seniority! So lets just take away seniority and longevity scales and make everyone ďequalĒ. Lets hand out participation trophies while we are at it!

So in Beans world, let #1 pilot just pick all his vacation, then move to pilot #2.....etc. That's the ultimate "screw the junior guys, seniority rules" way to hand out vacation.

Especially since y'all can sell back/fly over your vacation then it seems only right to allow everyone to pick one week before going on to week two selections, etc. And doesn't the ability to "trade" seniority abrogate seniority to a certain extent anyway?

RckyMtHigh
11-08-2017, 07:52 AM
Two different camps:
1. Seniority means I get to choose everything before you.
2. Seniority means you get to choose first, but not all.

You aren't going to convince anyone to change their minds here. We'll see in a couple days what the majority wants.

SlipKid
11-08-2017, 08:00 AM
Two different camps:
1. Seniority means I get to choose everything before you.
2. Seniority means you get to choose first, but not all.

You aren't going to convince anyone to change their minds here. We'll see in a couple days what the majority wants.


No, we won't even get the majority to vote.

This is gonna be decided by a very small fraction of the pilot group, and, like always, we're all gonna end up paying for it..... :eek:

After we screw up, errr "fix" vacation bidding, let's work on "fixing" monthly line bidding.

It can't possibly be "fair" that the evil senior folks get first crack at ALL of the weekends and holidays off!

RJSAviator76
11-08-2017, 08:03 AM
Let's work on "fixing" monthly line bidding next. It can't be "fair" that the evil senior folks get first crack at ALL of the weekends and holidays off!



Yep! Iím only a measly 2nd year FO, but I want a crack at the line thatíll enable me to clear my board in its entirety and allow me to play the premium game the whole month. After all, itís only fair, right?

flyguy81
11-08-2017, 08:09 AM
15 days off... IF you live in domicile. If not, since reserve isnít commutable, youíll use 4-5 of those days off commuting to or from domicile. Right?

No argument on pay per day. Itís a huge win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If youíre at UAL or DL and not used on SCR youíre commuting on one or both of your days off. At least we start with more days off than our contemporaries.

SlipKid
11-08-2017, 08:31 AM
Yep! Iím only a measly 2nd year FO, but I want a crack at the line thatíll enable me to clear my board in its entirety and allow me to play the premium game the whole month. After all, itís only fair, right?

Exactly. :eek:

Warhawg01
11-08-2017, 09:45 AM
Nice straw man you got there, it be a shame if anything where to happen to it.

Please point to anywhere an FO has actually argued that they deserve better lines.

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 09:54 AM
You guys crack me up. This debate will rage on just like the 16 percenters are still hanging on to the contract vote like it effing matters any more.
Itís changing. Get over it or donít...it doesnít matter. Maybe the end result will be a Hail Mary no vote on the side letter. If so, great. Whatever.
The block bid trade out of seniority scheme that we have now totally voids seniority by not allowing someone with 20 percent seniority in base to get a Summer week in the initial bid. How is that right?! Hint - it isnít.

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 09:57 AM
Nice straw man you got there, it be a shame if anything where to happen to it.



Please point to anywhere an FO has actually argued that they deserve better lines.



Totally agree. The Line bidding red herring has been beaten to death.
If you were to translate our vacation bid to Line bidding, the company would open up the pool of trips and allow us to construct our own lines in seniority order using those trips. The top 10 guys in each base would fly turns 5 days a week all month and have 200tfp. The bottom 70 percent would work weekends and have min paying trip totals. Sign me up.

ZapBrannigan
11-08-2017, 10:06 AM
Totally agree. The Line bidding red herring has been beaten to death.
If you were to translate our vacation bid to Line bidding, the company would open up the pool of trips and allow us to construct our own lines in seniority order using those trips. The top 10 guys in each base would fly turns 5 days a week all month and have 200tfp. The bottom 70 percent would work weekends and have min paying trip totals. Sign me up.


Iím giggling because thatís how PBS works. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WHACKMASTER
11-08-2017, 10:16 AM
Totally agree. The Line bidding red herring has been beaten to death.
If you were to translate our vacation bid to Line bidding, the company would open up the pool of trips and allow us to construct our own lines in seniority order using those trips. The top 10 guys in each base would fly turns 5 days a week all month and have 200tfp. The bottom 70 percent would work weekends and have min paying trip totals. Sign me up.

So pref bid in other words.

Beans
11-08-2017, 10:17 AM
Totally agree. The Line bidding red herring has been beaten to death.
If you were to translate our vacation bid to Line bidding, the company would open up the pool of trips and allow us to construct our own lines in seniority order using those trips. The top 10 guys in each base would fly turns 5 days a week all month and have 200tfp. The bottom 70 percent would work weekends and have min paying trip totals. Sign me up.


Thats not correct bc there is much more week day flying than weekend. Do you want seniority to mean anything? As stated above remember you wont be junior forever! If you want true equality have a lottery system. Every month assigne a random bidding position to every pilot. Let equality reign!!

Peacock
11-08-2017, 10:19 AM
Thats not correct bc their is much more week day flying than weekend. Do you want seniority to mean anything? As stated above remember you wont be junior forever! If you want true equality have a lottery system. Every month assigne a random bidding position to every pilot. Let equality rain!!!
There

Reign

RJSAviator76
11-08-2017, 10:37 AM
So pref bid in other words.

But that'll never fly at Southwest Airlines.... :rolleyes:

SlipKid
11-08-2017, 11:26 AM
The block bid trade out of seniority scheme that we have now totally voids seniority by not allowing someone with 20 percent seniority in base to get a Summer week in the initial bid. How is that right?! Hint - it isnít.


It's also not true.

If someone at 20% seniority in domicile didn't get a summer week, they didn't bid for it.

That said, I was not against changing the way we do it, but, in typical SWApA fashion, we've thrown the baby out with the bath water, and we're all gonna pay for it in the end.

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Thats not correct bc there is much more week day flying than weekend. Do you want seniority to mean anything? As stated above remember you wont be junior forever! If you want true equality have a lottery system. Every month assigne a random bidding position to every pilot. Let equality reign!!



You totally didnít read what I said. I donít want Line bidding to be that way. I donít want seniority to get diluted. In this case, though, the ďsuper senior get to choose their entire allotment before the next guy choosesĒ scenario is just wrong and has led to a huge power bulge in vacation bidding. Are you telling me block bidding was designed so that someone could get 4 or 5 summer weeks before they are all gone in the second round and then dole them out in trades? I call BS on that. It was designed so someone could bid and take 4-5 weeks off at a time. With line bidding and overlap, though, that would be financial and qol suicide.
Line bidding is fine like it is. Please donít go changing it. I am happy with my crappy line and look forward to getting a slightly less crappy line.

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 12:10 PM
It's also not true.



If someone at 20% seniority in domicile didn't get a summer week, they didn't bid for it.



That said, I was not against changing the way we do it, but, in typical SWApA fashion, we've thrown the baby out with the bath water, and we're all gonna pay for it in the end.



20 percent did not hold June and July in many domiciles unless I have been lied to my face, which is possible.
I think everybody just needs to chill the f out and let the chips fall. In the end, blind greed always rules the day at good old SWA and the cheese will flow pretty much like it always has.
Hereís the funny thing, while I would love to see it change, I still wonít get a week that I want at my seniority. Not even close. I will still have to trade just like now.
Also, if it doesnít change, you wonít see me on here crying about it. I love playing the vacation trade game and I have done ok with it every year I have been here. I just think the way the initial awards go out is a bunch of bs. I, however, only have one vote.

Sluggo_63
11-08-2017, 12:46 PM
Just trying to follow along out of curiosity... if the senior guys hold all summer vacations, what are they trading for? Christmas? Arbor Day? Why don’t they just bid Christmas off in the first place?

e6bpilot
11-08-2017, 02:04 PM
Just trying to follow along out of curiosity... if the senior guys hold all summer vacations, what are they trading for? Christmas? Arbor Day? Why donít they just bid Christmas off in the first place?



Right now you can either bid a week per round or a block of consecutive weeks. June, July, and to some extent early August get sucked up in block bids by a tiny minority of senior pilots. Due to overlap pull and pay it makes no sense to take consecutive weeks of vacation. You would be throwing away time off and thousands of dollars. They then trade them for whatever weeks they want or need. Christmas and thanksgiving are usually the two primo weeks. Spring break also to some extent.
Itís very complicated like everything involving bidding and trading here but the summer weeks eventually flow down the list, many times in seemingly random fashion. My second year here I held Fourth of July at one point and traded it for thanksgiving. I ended up with another Summer week in a random trade. Last year I couldnít manage to get Summer at all. This year I have a Summer and spring break week. Both are way out of my league seniority wise.

SlipKid
11-09-2017, 08:10 AM
Nice straw man you got there, it be a shame if anything where to happen to it.

Please point to anywhere an FO has actually argued that they deserve better lines.

Well, a Capt has argued, and got enough folks in SWAPA to agree, that he deserves better vacation than his seniority currently, or will ever, since he's only got a few years left, affords.

We're now voting on that, and a minute majority of the group will decide on how much seniority will be taken out of the vacation bidding process.

After "we" vote to change that horrifically unfair system, what's to stop him from moving onto the next "unfair" practice, which is, of course, line bidding by seniority, since it affects far more people, for far more of the year than a few weeks of vacation.

Most of the arguments he's pushed during the vacation change center around the "fairness" of the evil senior folks getting "all" of the good vacation weeks leaving none for the unfortunate junior folks.

Guess what, they also get ALL of the good weekday and holiday off lines every month too.

How is that even remotely "fair" to the junior folks that have "kids in school" etc.?

Just about every one of the arguments used to sell this debacle are applicable to line bidding.

e6bpilot
11-09-2017, 08:19 AM
Ok Slip. Drama isnít your thing, man. If you are talking about Jay L, I get your comments, but he is right in this case. He tends to insert himself as a lightning rod. I donít agree with everything he puts out, but he is spot on with vacation.
The majority of the 49 percent of apathetic pilots who bothered to vote voted for change in vacation bidding. It has been a hot topic every year since I have been here. I have never even heard anyone mention changing line bidding unless they were putting up a straw man argument like you are about vacation bidding.
As I said above, my skin in the game is minimal. I generally get the weeks I want regardless. I just think the way we hand them out is ridiculous.

SlipKid
11-09-2017, 12:20 PM
Ok Slip. Drama isn’t your thing, man. If you are talking about Jay L, I get your comments, but he is right in this case. He tends to insert himself as a lightning rod. I don’t agree with everything he puts out, but he is spot on with vacation.

Funny. The vacation thing is about the only thing I've ever disagreed with him about. He is typically not the type to feather his bed at the expense of others, but in this case, he's one of the few that will benefit without paying for it, now or later. Take that as you will.


The majority of the 49 percent of apathetic pilots who bothered to vote voted for change in vacation bidding. It has been a hot topic every year since I have been here. I have never even heard anyone mention changing line bidding unless they were putting up a straw man argument like you are about vacation bidding.

Straw man? Hardly.


I'd never heard anyone mentioning changing vacation bidding before the last few years either.

We've been experiencing the death by a thousand cuts around here, by voluntarily giving away exactly this kind of stuff little by little. Damn near every minor, and not so minor contractual annoyance we all gripe about was voted for, at some point, by the majority of this pilot group or agreed to on our behalf by SWApA.

Using the exact same logic and arguments they're using for vacation bidding, line bidding can certainly be next.

We've got the perfect storm of a vocal minority, several sympathetic BOD members and the same old, apathetic pilot group, which is the only reason this nonsense has gotten as far as it has.



As I said above, my skin in the game is minimal. I generally get the weeks I want regardless. I just think the way we hand them out is ridiculous.

Same here, which is precisely why I don't want it to change.

I hope that the company doesn't realize the windfall it will reap if we go one week per round, and tries to extract another concession in order to allow us to make this change. Maybe that will kill this idea for a while, and we can come up with a better solution for everyone, preferably in the next contract. We do not need any more concessionary side letters.

LaunchMcQuack
11-09-2017, 01:22 PM
Same repsonses I use on the facebook page

Give it a rest before you have a mental breakdown. Your 73 posts a day on the facebook page are not missed.

Go hug your family. You should have got hired here earlier to enjoy the block bidding before it may get changed.

SlipKid
11-09-2017, 08:35 PM
Give it a rest before you have a mental breakdown. Your 73 posts a day on the facebook page are not missed.

LOL... I've posted, maybe, 10 times ever on there, so try again.

Go hug your family. You should have got hired here earlier to enjoy the block bidding before it may get changed.

I've enjoyed the benefits of our system for over 20 years. Too bad you guys aren't gonna get to do the same. :eek:

SlipKid
11-10-2017, 01:26 PM
Surprisingly, "we" had the presence of mind to not go one week per round. It's definitely a hit, but 2 weeks in the first round hurts a little less than one......:eek:

WHACKMASTER
11-11-2017, 08:27 AM
Surprisingly, "we" had the presence of mind to not go one week per round. It's definitely a hit, but 2 weeks in the first round hurts a little less than one......:eek:

Omg, are you kidding me?! As advised above, ďGive it a restĒ. If the super senior werenít abusing the vacation bidding system then there wouldnít be a push to change it. Think about it.

SlipKid
11-11-2017, 09:50 AM
Omg, are you kidding me?! As advised above, “Give it a rest”.

Give what a rest? We dodged a bullet with this vote.

If the super senior weren’t abusing the vacation bidding system then there wouldn’t be a push to change it. Think about it.

So, the solution is to go completely the other direction and punish the vast majority of the pilot group due to a perceived abuse by a few?

There wasn't a "push to change it" until a few guys figured out that they weren't gonna get the weeks they wanted because they were gonna age out before their seniority allowed it. A few BOD guys felt the same way, they started their "fairness" campaign with the letter publicizing, ironically, the benefits of block bidding, and here we are, voting on the lesser of 2 evils.

Think about this: The aforementioned folks are willing to give away one of the few benefits of being senior here, because they will never get to exercise that benefit under the current system.

I am not, and have never been "super senior" (certainly not even close to the rarefied 10-20% level, that the option one folks are complaining about), and I've always made the current system work to my satisfaction.

I've never taken a summer vacation week, yet, have had at least a week off almost every summer month since I've been here, even when I was junior. We've been doing a week at the beach every July for at least 15 years, and I haven't missed one. And I have not been even close to senior for the vast majority of that time.

Even with the multiple SWApA endorsed and pilot approved limitations (DTC, etc.) we have an amazing amount of schedule flexibility.

Apparently, many of our pilots are unaware of how much they can improve their awarded schedules by applying a modicum of effort. I realize that in this instant gratification, "everyone gets a trophy" society, that kind of thinking is offensive, but really, it is not that hard. If anyone wants some tips, PM me.

That said, I had no heartburn with changing the vacation bidding, until a few "vocal minority" guys felt that they had enough traction to completely destroy the system to the detriment of the senior now, and ultimately, most of the pilot group at some point in their careers.

Option one was petty, punitive and ultimately bad for the vast majority of our pilots, most of whom won't be junior forever.

Surprisingly, since we typically vote for the most harmful option, the majority of the pilot group felt the same way, and voted for option 2, which was by far, the less harmful choice of the 2 for the vast majority of the pilot group, even if many of you can't (or won't), see that.

Now, we'll see what we have to give up to the company to get it implemented. :D

Caveman
11-12-2017, 02:43 AM
Black helicopters are for real

SlipKid
11-12-2017, 06:42 AM
Black helicopters are for real

It's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you. ;)

This pilot group thrives on personal agendas, most of which are not beneficial to the majority of the group, and many have caused actual harm to our collective careers. Most were far more serious transgressions than the vacation bid, which was nothing more than an attempt at a seniority grab by a few semi junior older guys.

Heck, there are already a few guys salivating at the thought of writing an app, that they can sell to the pilot group, of course, that will facilitate bidding on the thousands of possible permutations of first round combinations.

Then you have the other, pro change folks asking for a revote, because the option that the majority chose was not the one that they wanted. You truly can't make this stuff up.

Caveman
11-12-2017, 01:26 PM
Just poking some fun at you...

Looks like the majority of the participating voters spoke...gotta respect that. Not buying that this was a select few BOD members personal agenda...4000+ wonít be buying that line either.

Peacock
11-12-2017, 06:50 PM
I hate it when a tiny vocal minority outvotes the silent majority by a wide margin.

SlipKid
11-13-2017, 06:45 AM
I hate it when a tiny vocal minority outvotes the silent majority by a wide margin.

Are you familiar with the term "useful idiots"? If not, look it up.

That methodology has been used by SWApA (the vocal minority) for decades to get the majority to vote YES! on detrimental contracts and side letters. This vote was no different.

e6bpilot
11-13-2017, 07:22 AM
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/deadhorse.jpg

Caveman
11-13-2017, 07:25 AM
4000+ voters are ďuseful idiotsĒ that are the ďvocal minorityĒ...thatís an awful bold & position seemingly not based on the stats behind the vote?

The nice thing about black helicopters is tin foil hats accentuate their sound so you can hear them coming sooner.

Maybe Russia interfered somehow.

Peacock
11-13-2017, 07:32 AM
Are you familiar with the term "useful idiots"? If not, look it up.

That methodology has been used by SWApA (the vocal minority) for decades to get the majority to vote YES! on detrimental contracts and side letters. This vote was no different.
Have you considered writing a book on this subject? You could call it: "What happened"

SlipKid
11-13-2017, 08:15 AM
Have you considered writing a book on this subject? You could call it: "What happened"

That's pretty funny, but you got the wrong guy.

That's the book being written by the one week per round folks who are now not gonna reap the windfall they desired.

Some of them are now questioning the vote methodology. Screaming at the sky has already commenced. I hear that some are organizing a V.A.N.T.I.F.A movement. The first protest will be held at the Concourse D food court in PHX.

:p

4000+ voters are ďuseful idiotsĒ that are the ďvocal minorityĒ...thatís an awful bold & position seemingly not based on the stats behind the vote?

As I said, if you're not familiar with the term, you should google "useful idiots"

The vocal minority incites the useful idiots into a vocal majority.

You guys must be new, or have forgetten how things historically have gone down around here.

Bold? Maybe, but I haven't been wrong yet. Well, maybe a little. I truly expected the pilot group to (once again) choose the most harmful option this time around, so I was pleasantly surprised when we didn't. Mea Culpa.

Look back at the results of our voting record the last few decades. How many of them would the "majority" ratify, given the opportunity, looking back?

Damn near every concession, err, I mean "gain" we're currently enjoying was ratified by the majority. Most of the downsides were blatantly obvious to anyone that actually read the language prior to voting. Sadly, most of the group was (is) too apathetic to actually read the language, instead, limiting their "research" to listening to the SWApAganda du jour, and vote accordingly.


Some things never change. :eek:

The nice thing about black helicopters is tin foil hats accentuate their sound so you can hear them coming sooner.

Maybe Russia interfered somehow.

Yeah, that has to be it.

It can't possibly be that the sheep in this pilot group were, once again, willingly herded into a slaughter pen owned by the vocal minority.

It's not like it hasn't happened, dozens of times, in the last 20-30 years......

Black helicopters, tinfoil hats or Russians had nothing, whatsoever to do with it.

Caveman
11-13-2017, 09:15 AM
Itís such a pleasurable experience flying with the bold that havenít wrong yet kind of people.

SlipKid
11-13-2017, 09:40 AM
It’s such a pleasurable experience flying with the bold that haven’t wrong yet kind of people.

For sure, that does get old, especially when in reality, they're actually the smug, yet, ironically, always wrong (but think they're right) "majority" types, that keep ensuring our industry lagging status...... :D Right BH?

Beans
11-13-2017, 07:19 PM
For sure, that does get old, especially when in reality, they're actually the smug, yet, ironically, always wrong (but think they're right) "majority" types, that keep ensuring our industry lagging status...... :D Right BH?

SlipKid is more correct than wrong. As he stated "industry lagging status" is correct and people are leaving because of it. Most of them to FDX some to DL and UA. If you are to look at earning potential and movement to the left seat time tables WN struggles to stay in the same ball park over a career. Its not a few bucks difference, its 100 of thousands difference.

Peacock
11-13-2017, 07:45 PM
SlipKid is more correct than wrong. As he stated "industry lagging status" is correct and people are leaving because of it. Most of them to FDX some to DL and UA. If you are to look at earning potential and movement to the left seat time tables WN struggles to stay in the same ball park over a career. Its not a few bucks difference, its 100 of thousands difference.

What does industry lagging have to do with seniority?

SlipKid
11-14-2017, 07:10 AM
What does industry lagging have to do with seniority?

This sentence, when put in context of the previous 2 posts posts, is written proof of exactly why we'll always be industry lagging. :confused:

Peacock
11-14-2017, 07:57 AM
This sentence, when put in context of the previous 2 posts posts, is written proof of exactly why we'll always be industry lagging. :confused:
Ok what change to the contract do you recommend to get us 900 retirements a year

SlipKid
11-14-2017, 08:03 AM
Ok what change to the contract do you recommend to get us 900 retirements a year

Buy 1000 winning Powerball tickets every year and give them to the guys senior to you?

Perhaps if we'd spent more time/effort pushing for adequate, contractual retirement benefits for everyone south of the North Dallas 40, instead of wasting more than a decade tilting at the age 65 windmill, more folks would be ABLE to retire early.

Ask the many retired guys we've got working at the schoolhouse if they'd have lobbied for retirement change 20 years ago if they could go back and do it over.

Just in my last AQP, ALL of my instructors were retired line pilots, one was in my NH class, and confided that he was there for the money, and that he was far from the only one.

Beans
11-14-2017, 09:55 AM
Buy 1000 winning Powerball tickets every year and give them to the guys senior to you?

Perhaps if we'd spent more time/effort pushing for adequate, contractual retirement benefits for everyone south of the North Dallas 40, instead of wasting more than a decade tilting at the age 65 windmill, more folks would be ABLE to retire early.

Ask the many retired guys we've got working at the schoolhouse if they'd have lobbied for retirement change 20 years ago if they could go back and do it over.

Just in my last AQP, ALL of my instructors were retired line pilots, one was in my NH class, and confided that he was there for the money, and that he was far from the only one.

We have a powerball winner!! Bingo. Our retirement is a killer to seniority bc guys dont leave early. You look at FDX who has guys consistently out at 60-62 bc they have the 25 years and a full pension plus 401k. Their vacation system allows much more days off. Something that is out of our control but is a huge retirement determination is wide body pay. It allows you to save more sooner and the earlier money is in your retirement the better as we all know. Those are just a few for starters. Im with Slipkid on this. We spend time fighting and negotiating on the wrong things.

flyguy81
11-14-2017, 12:53 PM
With the B fund and assuming an avg rate of return, Iíll have north of $3 million when I punch out. Donít plan on having more than 1 wife or living beyond my means.

If youíre smart with your money you can retire making $50k a year. I donít want to hear it from guys whoíve been in the left seat for decades that they donít have any money to retire. If you donít, itís your fault. Quit blaming others for your failures. Just admit you fíd up and didnít save enough.

SlipKid
11-14-2017, 01:41 PM
With the B fund and assuming an avg rate of return, I’ll have north of $3 million when I punch out. Don’t plan on having more than 1 wife or living beyond my means.

If you’re smart with your money you can retire making $50k a year. I don’t want to hear it from guys who’ve been in the left seat for decades that they don’t have any money to retire. If you don’t, it’s your fault. Quit blaming others for your failures. Just admit you f’d up and didn’t save enough.

Because of our historically sub par retirement, the wife and I have been saving as much as possible for the last 2 decades.

I am on wife 1/mod zero, still live in my (almost paid off) FO house, have very little other debt (one credit card that I pay off as I use it and one, Sub $400 car loan. I would've paid cash for it, but it was 0% interest) I also have a few modest toys (by current FO standards anyway :confused: ) and I am definitely sweating it. Well, maybe not sweating it, but it's not quite as warm and fuzzy as I'd like it.

flyguy81
11-14-2017, 02:06 PM
Because of our historically sub par retirement, the wife and I have been saving as much as possible for the last 2 decades.

I am on wife 1/mod zero, still live in my (almost paid off) FO house, have very little other debt (one credit card that I pay off as I use it and one, Sub $400 car loan. I would've paid cash for it, but it was 0% interest) I also have a few modest toys (by current FO standards anyway :confused: ) and I am definitely sweating it. Well, maybe not sweating it, but it's not quite as warm and fuzzy as I'd like it.

What was the match when you started? I lived under crap RJ pay with a measly 4% match and still squirreled away $200k after a decade before coming here. I've added $80k in 2 years here....working to 65 will give me around $5.4m at 7%. Less if I leave earlier like I plan on. It could be worse....you could have been near retirement and saw your pension evaporate when all the legacies declared bankruptcy. Even just having $1m, you can live off the interest if you don't live extravagantly. A 7% return will give you $70k/yr.

SlipKid
11-14-2017, 03:14 PM
What was the match when you started? I lived under crap RJ pay with a measly 4% match and still squirreled away $200k after a decade before coming here. I've added $80k in 2 years here....working to 65 will give me around $5.4m at 7%. Less if I leave earlier like I plan on. It could be worse....you could have been near retirement and saw your pension evaporate when all the legacies declared bankruptcy. Even just having $1m, you can live off the interest if you don't live extravagantly. A 7% return will give you $70k/yr.

IIRC, it was around 6% when I started, and went to 7.8 at some point, then 9.3 in 2010.

Keep in mind that our pay and guarantee sucked for the first 6 years or so I was here. I never banked above $80k until after I upgraded. 2 years after that, JW got us a 30% raise (which was the only l raise I ever got here that you could actually tell you got one by comparing your 5th pay stub under the old vs. new scales, until last year).

We didn't have anywhere near as much flexibility or opportunity to make extra money like we do now either. There is no way that a 50%+ guy in domicile would be able to average 150 tfp per month like some of you junior guys do now. VJA (Premium) pay was rare, unless you were uber senior. I never got it once.

I walked onto the property at the ripe old age of 30, with a whopping $32k or so in my 401k after 10 years at the commuters/night freight. In that time, I averaged less than $30k per year, FWIW.

I've been saving my a$$ off since I got here to catch up.

It can always be worse.

While it was never even close to my first choice, I've never regretted coming to SW or staying here.

The timing worked out perfectly for me, and other than going to Fed Ex or maybe UPS at the same time I got hired here, I could not have had a better career. I rode out the "lost decade" as a junior Capt making industry leading pay (after everyone else's pay got eviscerated by BK), and I'll retire well north of #50 on the MSL..

Better to be lucky than good. :eek:

You younger guys are getting here at a good time, as (at least some of) the pilot group is finally starting to wake up.

As for retirement, I'll be fine, but it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.

flyguy81
11-14-2017, 03:27 PM
IIRC, it was around 6% when I started, and went to 7.8 at some point, then 9.3 in 2010.

Keep in mind that our pay and guarantee sucked for the first 6 years or so I was here. I never banked above $80k until after I upgraded. 2 years after that, JW got us a 30% raise (which was the only l raise I ever got here that you could actually tell you got one by comparing your 5th pay stub under the old vs. new scales, until last year).

We didn't have anywhere near as much flexibility or opportunity to make extra money like we do now either. There is no way that a 50%+ guy in domicile would be able to average 150 tfp per month like some of you junior guys do now. VJA (Premium) pay was rare, unless you were uber senior. I never got it once.

I walked onto the property at the ripe old age of 30, with a whopping $32k or so in my 401k after 10 years at the commuters/night freight. In that time, I averaged less than $30k per year, FWIW.

I've been saving my a$$ off since I got here to catch up.

It can always be worse.

While it was never even close to my first choice, I've never regretted coming to SW or staying here.

The timing worked out perfectly for me, and other than going to Fed Ex or maybe UPS at the same time I got hired here, I could not have had a better career. I rode out the "lost decade" as a junior Capt making industry leading pay (after everyone else's pay got eviscerated by BK), and I'll retire well north of #50 on the MSL..

Better to be lucky than good. :eek:

You younger guys are getting here at a good time, as (at least some of) the pilot group is finally starting to wake up.

As for retirement, I'll be fine, but it wasn't for lack of trying on my part.

Had a Capín show me the pay rates from the 90ís. Iím glad weíre where we are now compared to our peers at NK, B6 and AS. Weíve got room for improvement and Iím hoping the economy is still strong in 2019 so we can make some more gains in retirement, pay and LTD, etc.

Beans
11-14-2017, 05:36 PM
What was the match when you started? I lived under crap RJ pay with a measly 4% match and still squirreled away $200k after a decade before coming here. I've added $80k in 2 years here....working to 65 will give me around $5.4m at 7%. Less if I leave earlier like I plan on. It could be worse....you could have been near retirement and saw your pension evaporate when all the legacies declared bankruptcy. Even just having $1m, you can live off the interest if you don't live extravagantly. A 7% return will give you $70k/yr.

7% is not historically acurate for the market. Try 4%

flyguy81
11-14-2017, 06:18 PM
7% is not historically acurate for the market. Try 4%

Depends how you invest...S&P avg is around 10-12%. Iím young so trade differently than I will when Iím older since I have more time to play with. Iíll likely be more conservative and yield a lower return when Iím older and have more to lose. YMMV

ANGFlight81
11-14-2017, 06:19 PM
7% is not historically acurate for the market. Try 4%


Now you have it, Beans not only a pilot but a financial advisor too!

Hey Beans, which stocks should I buy? Whatís youíre take on the housing market?



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1