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View Full Version : DAL vs AA


btrb2000
10-31-2017, 03:01 PM
If one was lucky enough to get an offer from both American and Delta today which would be the better choice?


Broncofan
10-31-2017, 03:04 PM
If one was lucky enough to get an offer from both American and Delta today which would be the better choice?

I think American just due to the rapid seniority you would accumulate

jcountry
10-31-2017, 03:16 PM
Age is a big consideration.

People over 40 will probably way junior at delta for their whole careers


mainlineAF
10-31-2017, 03:40 PM
Too many variables. DL has a better contract right now but AA has a massive amount of retirements that are just starting.

DL has also hired a whole lot more people during this wave.

Really comes down to where you want to live. Theyíre both really good jobs.

PilotJ3
10-31-2017, 05:15 PM
Delta has less debt than AA and UAL.

It all depends where you live, where do you want to be based and your age.

Sliceback
10-31-2017, 05:28 PM
Part of the reason DL has less debt is the age of their fleet. Replacing older aircraft, which they'll have to do eventually, will close the gap somewhat.

Check my previous posts. I answered this exact question and showed retirements in a side by side comparison between DL, UA, and AA. I think the thread was asking about a comparison, or decision process, if you had to choose between DL or AA.

Go Cards go
10-31-2017, 05:56 PM
Roughly 45% of the DL seniority list will be retired in the next 10 years. I would base it on where you, or more importantly your wife/family, wants to live. I can’t even begin to explain how much better your qol will be if you don’t have to commute.

crewdawg
10-31-2017, 06:58 PM
If one was lucky enough to get an offer from both American and Delta today which would be the better choice?

Whichever one allows you to drive to work. After that, whichever one calls you first. Having worked for both, the contract is much better at DAL. I've made WAY more money, with more time off at DAL than I would have if I had stayed at AAL.

Best of luck!

A330FoodCritic
11-01-2017, 12:21 AM
Whichever one allows you to drive to work.

YEP, commuting sucks.

Al Czervik
11-01-2017, 02:11 AM
Don’t commute!!!

sailingfun
11-01-2017, 03:45 AM
Whichever one allows you to drive to work. After that, whichever one calls you first. Having worked for both, the contract is much better at DAL. I've made WAY more money, with more time off at DAL than I would have if I had stayed at AAL.

Best of luck!

Crewdog, dont you read the delta threads, our contract is the worst in the industry!

Flying101
11-01-2017, 07:34 AM
Roughly 45% of the DL seniority list will be retired in the next 10 years. I would base it on where you, or more importantly your wife/family, wants to live. I canít even begin to explain how much better your qol will be if you donít have to commute.

AA will retire ~30 % over next 5 years and ~ 65% over the next 10.

Sliceback
11-01-2017, 09:41 AM
Using the latest seniority list and counting the remaining 2017 retirements (roughly 200) plus the following 5 or 10 yrs the percentages of AA retirements are -

5 yrs - 25%
10 yrs - 58%

Imapilot2
11-01-2017, 02:01 PM
DAL upgrade time to CA on MD88 and Boeing 717 is about 2 months right now. The schedule won't be any good but over $225 an hour after 2 months on the property. Pretty good deal.

saturn
11-01-2017, 02:34 PM
DAL upgrade time to CA on MD88 and Boeing 717 is about 2 months right now. The schedule won't be any good but over $225 an hour after 2 months on the property. Pretty good deal.

Don't confuse award date with conversion date

ShyGuy
11-01-2017, 04:37 PM
DAL upgrade time to CA on MD88 and Boeing 717 is about 2 months right now. The schedule won't be any good but over $225 an hour after 2 months on the property. Pretty good deal.

717 was awarded to two months on property (before conversion)? What base is this?

Imapilot2
11-01-2017, 05:33 PM
Comparing the difference between American and Delta , APC says for American the most Junior Captain is New York from 1999 which is 18 years ago. Someone hurry and go check to see what their conversion date is!
We had guys on the property for two months they got awarded Captain that's my point.

A320 and B737 was 2-3 years to Captain.

Andrew_VT
11-01-2017, 06:52 PM
Comparing the difference between American and Delta , APC says for American the most Junior Captain is New York from 1999 which is 18 years ago. Someone hurry and go check to see what their conversion date is!
We had guys on the property for two months they got awarded Captain that's my point.

A320 and B737 was 2-3 years to Captain.

So what you're saying is...

It's not the size of your seniority that matters, it's how you use it!

saturn
11-01-2017, 09:45 PM
Comparing the difference between American and Delta , APC says for American the most Junior Captain is New York from 1999 which is 18 years ago. Someone hurry and go check to see what their conversion date is!
We had guys on the property for two months they got awarded Captain that's my point.

A320 and B737 was 2-3 years to Captain.

I get your point, folks upgrading crazy fast for a mainline carrier.

My point was most places the time from an award to conversion isn't 1 year later. This 2 month guy/gal likely will convert last, and wont have a 4th bar on the shoulder until over 1 year on property. From the outside looking in it would appear we're hiring street captains.

Imapilot2
11-02-2017, 03:11 AM
I did a pilot internship at American back in the 90s. I really liked that Airline. Any of the big three would be awesome in my opinion. However in this comparison the upgrade possibilities at Delta hands down make the biggest difference. Outside of don't ever commute if you don't have to.
We all know a new hire today won't wait 18 years. Upgrade times will come down drastically over the next few years. But over the next few years Delta upgrade is almost immediate if you want it.

FL370esq
11-02-2017, 04:43 AM
DAL upgrade time to CA on MD88 and Boeing 717 is about 2 months right now. The schedule won't be any good but over $225 an hour after 2 months on the property. Pretty good deal.

Ummmm...just to keep this accurate, no one with 2 months on property was awarded either the M88 or B717 Captain position and certainly no one was collecting Captain pay in their 2nd month at Delta.

The junior M88 Captain slot (ATL) in the MOAB went to someone with 4 months (yup, still wicked fast) but he/she won't see Capt pay till May 2018 when they are projected to convert. The junior B717 Captain slot (NYC) went to someone who was a year and three months (still pretty fast but again, not two months). That person was projected to convert last month so they should be seeing year 2 Captain pay now ($220.68).

Imapilot2
11-02-2017, 05:02 AM
Was talking with a friend cp, don't know why he would know this so take it for what it's worth....first run of the MOAB with original number of 350 slots had guys in indoc being awarded captain. After reducing the number of 350 positions it got down to guys who at least had just finished ioe which was 2 months after indoc....and as 370 so eloquently corrected me is 4 months on the property.

It also looks like upgrades at American are already up to 2004 and with their totally crazy seniority list could jump to 2013 hires here soon.

nimslow
11-02-2017, 05:14 AM
Comparing the difference between American and Delta , APC says for American the most Junior Captain is New York from 1999 which is 18 years ago. Someone hurry and go check to see what their conversion date is!
We had guys on the property for two months they got awarded Captain that's my point.

A320 and B737 was 2-3 years to Captain.


Actually our junior group 2 captain at AA (non TWA) is a 2001 hire, about 10,600 out of 14,600 or so. I'm a Feb 01, and I'm very close to the plug on the 73 in LGA right now.

Under our old system, we had monthly vacancy bids that were effective around 60 days after the bid award. Our pay starts the effective date of the bid award so usually we are getting the higher pay while still in training.

FL370esq
11-02-2017, 06:10 AM
Was talking with a friend cp, don't know why he would know this so take it for what it's worth....first run of the MOAB with original number of 350 slots had guys in indoc being awarded captain. After reducing the number of 350 positions it got down to guys who at least had just finished ioe which was 2 months after indoc....and as 370 so eloquently corrected me is 4 months on the property.

Hey...that was a 100% discrepancy - gotta keep APC fair and balanced. 😁

AEs are weird things. Sometimes the union gets shocked and sometimes the company gets shocked after the first run. I wouldn't doubt that as you got beyond the 125 A350 F/O slots that were actually awarded and moved closer to the 160 that were originally posted, that you got into the realm of pilots who put the A350 F/O over M88 Capt on their AE preference. As the company reduced the number of 350 awards from 160 to 125, those with 350B first and M88A second found themselves getting their second choice and therefore pulled the junior M88A award up in seniority all the way to a 4 monther.

Either way, it's a different world from 15-20 years ago when it was 5 years to be a junior ER F/O and 10 years to hold a junior Capt slot (putting aside the lower-tier Sunshine Operation, of course). Hopefully it continues....because, regardless, it is good for all of us.

N10DJ
11-02-2017, 07:15 PM
I'm very interested in this thread because while I don't have job offers from either right now, I do have interviews with both. Since I'm a glass half full kinda guy, Im hoping my biggest issue is having to decide which class to attend in a month or two.

I would be one of the youngest pilots at AA, and below the average of a relatively young DAL group. Don't know if my age will truly make any difference towards my QOL towards the end of my career. Figured it's worth mentioning though. I don't mind moving to a base. My long term flying goal is line holding WB International. Shorter term goal is having as much control of my schedule as I can. Overall goal is happiness with where I'm at (don't think there's really a bad choice nowadays).

Does AA retirements give me the best chance of achieving this?
Or does DAL contract give me the better chance of achieving this?

Sliceback
11-03-2017, 05:52 AM
It looks like youíd retire around #2 at AA unless they hires some young guys in the last class. Thatís assuming your 25.
I donít have the final DL number but I have an estimated seniority number for future ages (nearest hundred) -


DL AA

55. 1100. 200
50. 2500. 500
45. 3700. 1200
40. 5500. 1900
35. 8000. 5200

Retirement data from APC posts.

G4 CA at 42(?). Line holder at 45. Assuming current bidding patterns remain constant.

Upgrade at junior base projected to be fall 2022 using current manning and retirements.

Iíd move to Bucks County, PA. An hour to PHL, 1+45(?) to JFK. Keeps both bases in play without commuting.

Jet Jockey 00
11-03-2017, 06:06 AM
It really depends on where you live. If you have a 30 yr. career things will change at both carriers over time but the bases will remain the same for the most part, especially ATL and DFW? Maybe you have family there or maybe your a SEA kind of guy.

btw Slickback whats the junior 777 CA in DFW? Moses or Captain America?

Name User
11-03-2017, 12:44 PM
It looks like youíd retire around #2 at AA unless they hires some young guys in the last class. Thatís assuming your 25.
I donít have the final DL number but I have an estimated seniority number for future ages (nearest hundred) -


DL AA

55. 1100. 200
50. 2500. 500
45. 3700. 1200
40. 5500. 1900
35. 8000. 5200

Retirement data from APC posts.

G4 CA at 42(?). Line holder at 45. Assuming current bidding patterns remain constant.

Upgrade at junior base projected to be fall 2022 using current manning and retirements.

Iíd move to Bucks County, PA. An hour to PHL, 1+45(?) to JFK. Keeps both bases in play without commuting.
My god some people have all the luck.

Dolphinflyer
11-03-2017, 01:47 PM
My god some people have all the luck.

Yes, but remember that he's still only get to #2 which means he'll eventually be beetching in ops or endlessly complaining across some ocean track about not getting his first choice. :D

AFPirate
11-03-2017, 05:37 PM
It really depends on where you live. If you have a 30 yr. career things will change at both carriers over time but the bases will remain the same for the most part, especially ATL and DFW? Maybe you have family there or maybe your a SEA kind of guy.

btw Slickback whats the junior 777 CA in DFW? Moses or Captain America?

'86 hire... 1,1XX seniority.

Name User
11-03-2017, 05:50 PM
Yes, but remember that he's still only get to #2 which means he'll eventually be beetching in ops or endlessly complaining across some ocean track about not getting his first choice. :D

The younger guys hired today get a double whammy from retirements. Practically all the flows hired in the last few years behind me are all older meaning they will continue to add to the retirement numbers. If the company isn't careful with hiring they could be setting themselves up for massive retirements as in 2000/yr in the 2030s. Doesn't help me that they are behind me and retire a decade ahead of me but wow if things stay as planned (ha) things are gonna get crazy.

Combine that with starting pay in the $60's at the regionals with guys making $150k+ second year, I mean, how in the world do you get that lucky? This must be what the 1960's felt like for those guys hired on then. I can't imagine being 35 and 2/3 up the list at AA...ok...sorry I'll try not to be too bitter...

ackattacker
11-04-2017, 06:16 AM
If history is any guide, you should figure out which airline is better and then apply to the other one, because everything in this industry is cyclical.

Sliceback
11-04-2017, 10:33 AM
Couple of clarifications - those are early 2017 estimates so retirements and hires since then will shift things. And I might be off by a year so 55 might be the age 56 estimates.

Age 57(58??) has DL(early 2017 data) at roughly #350 and AA at #35. Seven to eight years under #40? Ouch.

Hereís where it will suck - heís going to be so stupid senior, for so long, that heíll have to move to DFW, or commute to DFW, to extract the most value from his seniority number. Heíll just have to suck it up and take it like a man. :-/

AC560
11-04-2017, 11:44 AM
Single breasted or double breasted, itís a no brainer.

badflaps
11-04-2017, 04:30 PM
Couple of clarifications - those are early 2017 estimates so retirements and hires since then will shift things. And I might be off by a year so 55 might be the age 56 estimates.

Age 57(58??) has DL(early 2017 data) at roughly #350 and AA at #35. Seven to eight years under #40? Ouch.

Hereís where it will suck - heís going to be so stupid senior, for so long, that heíll have to move to DFW, or commute to DFW, to extract the most value from his seniority number. Heíll just have to suck it up and take it like a man. :-/

All the 24 year old Capts at Tee-way thought they had it boxed.



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