Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Subpilot
11-03-2017, 09:32 AM
I heard that with only one class of new hires for November at AA, Envoy is sending over less that 25 flow throughs. Only 19 went in September (another violation), due to a canceled second class. So now we have a trend of flow being violated BELOW metering for 2 months in a row. Combine that with no classes at all for October and December and what do you got... constipation.


TheRaven
11-03-2017, 09:56 AM
Better to have Flow violated than your sphincter in a Prison shower.

Have the Union push for seniority numbers to be issued, then date of Flow is less important.

ORDinary
11-03-2017, 10:09 AM
I heard that with only one class of new hires for November at AA, Envoy is sending over less that 25 flow throughs. Only 19 went in September (another violation), due to a canceled second class. So now we have a trend of flow being violated BELOW metering for 2 months in a row. Combine that with no classes at all for October and December and what do you got... constipation.

AA had one class in September, with 38 pilots. We got 50% of that class. That isn't a violation. Metering is applicable as a way for Envoy to send less than 50% when AA has large classes, not the opposite. If your "interpretation" of metering was correct, the company would have been in violation of flow pretty much every month since flow began. Probably somebody would have noticed by now if that was the case.

AA's first class in November is 11/7. We won't know if the company has violated the flow for November until the end of the month. The original plan was that they would have two November classes of 40-something each, and that we would have 25 total flows for the month.


Subpilot
11-03-2017, 10:17 AM
AA had one class in September, with 38 pilots. We got 50% of that class. That isn't a violation. Metering is applicable as a way for Envoy to send less than 50% when AA has large classes, not the opposite. If your "interpretation" of metering was correct, the company would have been in violation of flow pretty much every month since flow began. Probably somebody would have noticed by now if that was the case.

AA's first class in November is 11/7. We won't know if the company has violated the flow for November until the end of the month. The original plan was that they would have two November classes of 40-something each, and that we would have 25 total flows for the month.

If you look at the contract then you will find this little gem, which is applicable.

Letter 12-04 section 3.d.
“When AA is hiring, Eagle shall release a minimum of 25 Eagle pilots per month who have accepted pilot positions at AA...”

As for November, last I heard was one big class of 80 something which was discussed on the all-pilot teleconference. If that’s changed then I wasn’t informed. I want to be wrong on this.

HardLemonade
11-03-2017, 10:27 AM
I heard that with only one class of new hires for November at AA, Envoy is sending over less that 25 flow throughs. Only 19 went in September (another violation), due to a canceled second class. So now we have a trend of flow being violated BELOW metering for 2 months in a row. Combine that with no classes at all for October and December and what do you got... constipation.

Brojangles...someone has been feeding you bad info. 25/month is what the company flows when AA has 50 or more new hires. Anything less than 50 new hires per month means we flow 50% of that new number.

Let me put it like this: say your libido can only handle 3 beeaches in the sack at a time...or 50% of however many hoes you pick up in a night. If you drag home 6 senoritas you can only take 3 into the bedroom..the other 3 you have to pack into an Uber.

If you bring home only 3 ladies..you better hope one of them is a midget, because you're only banging 1.5 of them. Not all 3.

kaputt
11-03-2017, 10:30 AM
Brojangles...someone has been feeding you bad info. 25/month is what the company flows when AA has 50 or more new hires. Anything less than 50 new hires per month means we flow 50% of that new number.

Let me put it like this: say your libido can only handle 3 beeaches in the sack at a time...or 50% of however many hoes you pick up in a night. If you drag home 6 senoritas you can only take 3 into the bedroom..the other 3 you have to pack into an Uber.

If you bring home only 3 ladies..you better hope one of them is a midget, because you're only banging 1.5 of them. Not all 3.

I come to the Envoy forum just to read this stuff. Always well done :D

pilotguy7
11-03-2017, 10:30 AM
Brojangles...someone has been feeding you bad info. 25/month is what the company flows when AA has 50 or more new hires. Anything less than 50 new hires per month means we flow 50% of that new number.

Let me put it like this: say your libido can only handle 3 beeaches in the sack at a time...or 50% of however many hoes you pick up in a night. If you drag home 6 senoritas you can only take 3 into the bedroom..the other 3 you have to pack into an Uber.

If you bring home only 3 ladies..you better hope one of them is a midget, because you're only banging 1.5 of them. Not all 3.

Greatest answer to a flow EVER!!!! I want a midget now!!!

E175 Driver
11-03-2017, 10:47 AM
At least we are flowing. Better than 0.

GodIsGood
11-03-2017, 11:53 AM
Even though I think it is bull that the company is metering, there is no violation currently happening. Will the mods please delete this thread?

Incontinentius
11-03-2017, 01:40 PM
Better to have Flow violated than your sphincter in a Prison shower.

Have the Union push for seniority numbers to be issued, then date of Flow is less important.

Walk off the job and demand seniority numbers.

That's a much better attitude.

You own your labor, its not the other way around.

Av8tor6743
11-03-2017, 02:07 PM
Brojangles...someone has been feeding you bad info. 25/month is what the company flows when AA has 50 or more new hires. Anything less than 50 new hires per month means we flow 50% of that new number.

Let me put it like this: say your libido can only handle 3 beeaches in the sack at a time...or 50% of however many hoes you pick up in a night. If you drag home 6 senoritas you can only take 3 into the bedroom..the other 3 you have to pack into an Uber.

If you bring home only 3 ladies..you better hope one of them is a midget, because you're only banging 1.5 of them. Not all 3.
Ahhhhh...”flow” makes much better sense when properly illustrated....

3EngineTaxi
11-05-2017, 04:18 AM
Perpetual metering is not OK per the agreement. The company is supposed to make "every effort" to send 50 percent. Arbitrarily shutting it off at 25 every single month is a clear violation of the agreement.

3EngineTaxi
11-05-2017, 04:22 AM
** had one class in September, with 38 pilots. We got 50% of that class. That isn't a violation. Metering is applicable as a way for ***** to send less than 50% when ** has large classes, not the opposite. If your "interpretation" of metering was correct, the company would have been in violation of flow pretty much every month since flow began. Probably somebody would have noticed by now if that was the case.
This is incorrect: throughout the 824, they pretty much honored the 50 percent, because the 824 had language requiring a TRUE-UP. By the 1,648 pilots had been hired, 824 (50 percent) of them had to be flow-throughs.

Reservist
11-07-2017, 03:42 AM
From the Union...


Flow Update

"The month of November is slated to see 88 new hires over at AA. Our Contract is clear. We are owed 50% of each and every American Airlines new hire class. 44 pilots should be flowing, however Envoy management is saying 25 flow-throughs for the month satisfies the CBA.

A grievance has been filed over the July, August, and September flow-through, and another is in the wings should Envoy decide that its all-time-high hiring numbers and pipeline of upgrading pilots somehow make it impossible for them to ever possibly comply with our collectively bargained agreement."

Bob Loblaw
11-07-2017, 05:20 AM
From the Union...


Flow Update

"The month of November is slated to see 88 new hires over at AA. Our Contract is clear. We are owed 50% of each and every American Airlines new hire class. 44 pilots should be flowing, however Envoy management is saying 25 flow-throughs for the month satisfies the CBA.

A grievance has been filed over the July, August, and September flow-through, and another is in the wings should Envoy decide that its all-time-high hiring numbers and pipeline of upgrading pilots somehow make it impossible for them to ever possibly comply with our collectively bargained agreement."


Expect a settlement in 3-4 years for 1 PVD per pilot, which will then be denied "due to staffing".

3EngineTaxi
11-07-2017, 10:49 AM
Just in case people haven't noticed, the "flow date" estimates in the most recent union unofficial seniority list have delayed the estimated dates ... AGAIN. It's a clear signal that it is in everyone's best interest to apply to all the majors and try to get hired before the ever-delaying "flow date."

Each month that the flow isn't honored at 50 percent, every single junior pilot is irreparably and unquantifiably harmed.

I'm just trying to encourage people to not be naive and believe the flow will magically speed up.

(I truly wish I would be proven wrong.)

rondonq1
11-07-2017, 11:46 AM
Yes this is much bad news for the pilots of énvoy. I have been saying this was to happen. Too much need for the cheap pilotos at envoy. No need for more expensive ones at AA. You metered now right plus the stop of the flow in September, october and November. It is my understanding that the moving of the flow dates on your union list is 'moving target' always changing. This is how énvoy keep you on the hook.

pilotguy7
11-07-2017, 01:11 PM
Just in case people haven't noticed, the "flow date" estimates in the most recent union unofficial seniority list have delayed the estimated dates ... AGAIN. It's a clear signal that it is in everyone's best interest to apply to all the majors and try to get hired before the ever-delaying "flow date."

Each month that the flow isn't honored at 50 percent, every single junior pilot is irreparably and unquantifiably harmed.

I'm just trying to encourage people to not be naive and believe the flow will magically speed up.

(I truly wish I would be proven wrong.)
This is very much so making me pause about going to the Voy (and my class starts in two weeks), 90% of the reason I'm going is due to the flow.

pilotguy7
11-07-2017, 01:11 PM
90% of the reason I'm going is due to the flow.
TWSS (Thats what she said). .sorry . . couldnt resist!

E175 Driver
11-07-2017, 01:24 PM
The moment they mess with the flow, this place will implode.

highfarfast
11-07-2017, 02:40 PM
This is very much so making me pause about going to the Voy (and my class starts in two weeks), 90% of the reason I'm going is due to the flow.

What’s your other options? I chose to come to Envoy because it was the best option for me at the time (and still is), regardless of flow. And yeah, I concider flow more or less useless for a guy hired today with the way it’s being used by management.

The moment they mess with the flow, this place will implode.

They’re already ‘messing’ with it. AA putting more than one months of new hires into one month so that Envoy only has to give up 25 is ‘messing’ with flow without technically violating contract.

Also, management stating in advance they will never flow more than 25 per month is saying they never intend to honor the 50% part of the contract. I think it could be argued the contract was signed in bad faith. I’m sure there are legal ramifications to that if someone in the right place agreed. However, I gather it takes so long for these things to be sorted out, I bet most of us will have moved on to a major/legacy via the regular hiring process (if you have your apps out and updated that is).

highflyer1980
11-07-2017, 02:45 PM
Too bad new hires didn’t know or believed the truth before coming here. many have tried to convey here that flow is not in any way a guarantee that you will arrive at AA in a given time. Hope they will enjoy the 10 year tenure here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

TeeRainPULup
11-07-2017, 04:43 PM
Too bad new hires didn’t know or believed the truth before coming here. many have tried to convey here that flow is not in any way a guarantee that you will arrive at AA in a given time. Hope they will enjoy the 10 year tenure here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
We all will be hire off the street by a mainline before 2027/2028.

pilotguy7
11-07-2017, 04:44 PM
What’s your other options?
Pretty all the other regionals ... also a few 135 and smaller 121's, and Spirit.

highfarfast
11-07-2017, 05:22 PM
Pretty all the other regionals ... also a few 135 and smaller 121's, and Spirit.

I was thinking more in terms of options you’d be happy with. Honestly, if you’re going to move to a base and work at a regional, Endevor looks pretty good right now. Hell, even if you’re commuting and the commute to either is about the same, Endevor looks pretty good right now. Moving was not an option for me though which dictated where I went. 135 did nothing for my resume and Spirit... just didn’t want to go there for a variety of reasons.

Flow had nothing to do with me coming here. I’d suggest others to think in the same way unless you have reasons to think you might need flow (like a non-ideal resume and a great desire to work for AA).

pilotguy7
11-07-2017, 05:29 PM
I was thinking more in terms of options you’d be happy with. Honestly, if you’re going to move to a base and work at a regional, Endevor looks pretty good right now. Hell, even if you’re commuting and the commute to either is about the same, Endevor looks pretty good right now. Moving was not an option for me though which dictated where I went. 135 did nothing for my resume and Spirit... just didn’t want to go there for a variety of reasons.

Flow had nothing to do with me coming here. I’d suggest others to think in the same way unless you have reasons to think you might need flow (like a non-ideal resume and a great desire to work for AA).
I used to work at 9E, great company and great people. I'm a Texas guy with a family, and I'm not about to move them to ANY place 9E operates. So commuting to work is what I am left with. Honestly for me, QOL is just about the top of bucket list, and not sure how that is going to look long term there. I'm still on the fence, but a MAJOR reason why they were on my list is because of the flow . . . I dont have a college degree and it is very nice to get picked up by a major without that piece of paper.

highfarfast
11-07-2017, 05:46 PM
I used to work at 9E, great company and great people. I'm a Texas guy with a family, and I'm not about to move them to ANY place 9E operates. So commuting to work is what I am left with. Honestly for me, QOL is just about the top of bucket list, and not sure how that is going to look long term there. I'm still on the fence, but a MAJOR reason why they were on my list is because of the flow . . . I dont have a college degree and it is very nice to get picked up by a major without that piece of paper.

The lack of a degree is a problem for the better jobs today. But three years from now it may not be. Honestly though, it was one of the things I was thinking of when I said ‘less than ideal resume’ BUT in a few years majors and legacies will have to decide how important that piece of paper is. There are other resume problems I think are more important but until then, yeah, this is where flow has some value. Just don’t put much value in the flow date the recruiter tells you.

highflyer1980
11-08-2017, 04:08 AM
We all will be hire off the street by a mainline before 2027/2028.



For all our sakes, I certainly hope you are correct. I feel working in the industry is like a slot machine. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Lately it’s been more lose than win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

E175 Driver
11-08-2017, 07:02 AM
No AA Flow class for DEC.:mad:

Chicken Little
11-08-2017, 07:34 AM
No AA Flow class for DEC.:mad:

Did this come as a surprise to you?

ASTEROIDEA7
11-08-2017, 07:39 AM
I need SCOPE relief and not the Kirby variety, that involves suction.

havick206
11-08-2017, 09:14 AM
How’s the attrition going? I personally know of about 5-6 FO’s (roughly one year with the company) that have bailed for the likes of Allegiant, Spirit lately based on the fact they hold no stock in the flow. They think they will fare better at other carriers based on what is happening at Envoy with regard to flow the last few months.

Anyone know real numbers of people leaving?

highfarfast
11-08-2017, 10:40 AM
How’s the attrition going? I personally know of about 5-6 FO’s (roughly one year with the company) that have bailed for the likes of Allegiant, Spirit lately based on the fact they hold no stock in the flow. They think they will fare better at other carriers based on what is happening at Envoy with regard to flow the last few months.

Anyone know real numbers of people leaving?

Only person I know of leaving was hired by United... never made it to recurrency here. I doubt him leaving had anything to do with flow though. ;-)

My guess is that anyone leaving for the likes of Alligient or Spirit has more to do with forced upgrade type issues than flow though.

Really though, real attrition numbers would be interesting. I’ve said for a while now that Envoy will lose the pilots whether they metered flow or not.

havick206
11-08-2017, 10:49 AM
Only person I know of leaving was hired by United... never made it to recurrency here. I doubt him leaving had anything to do with flow though. ;-)

My guess is that anyone leaving for the likes of Alligient or Spirit has more to do with forced upgrade type issues than flow though.

Really though, real attrition numbers would be interesting. I’ve said for a while now that Envoy will lose the pilots whether they metered flow or not.

No the 5 I know aren’t in the forced upgrade predicament at all. They’d rather hedge their bets elsewhere given the flow appears to be not worth the paper it’s written on in their opinion. Obviously other factors also played into their decisions.

Jersdawg
11-08-2017, 11:33 AM
The union puts out a new blast once a month or so and includes attrition due to flow and OAL hiring near the bottom.

Reserve King
11-08-2017, 11:37 AM
The union puts out a new blast once a month or so and includes attrition due to flow and OAL hiring near the bottom.



What did this month’s say? Or last month’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jersdawg
11-08-2017, 11:49 AM
What did this month’s say? Or last month’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November's info was incomplete for some reason. It showed 138 to OAL, but didn't have total attrition. I found September's blast and it showed 330 total attrition with 95 OAL.

Do you get the union emails? if not, check your spam folder. There is occasionally some good stuff in there.

havick206
11-08-2017, 12:09 PM
November's info was incomplete for some reason. It showed 138 to OAL, but didn't have total attrition. I found September's blast and it showed 330 total attrition with 95 OAL.

Do you get the union emails? if not, check your spam folder. There is occasionally some good stuff in there.

I get the Alpa daily but not the news blasts for some reason.

bigtime209
11-08-2017, 12:23 PM
Only person I know of leaving was hired by United... never made it to recurrency here. I doubt him leaving had anything to do with flow though. ;-)

My guess is that anyone leaving for the likes of Alligient or Spirit has more to do with forced upgrade type issues than flow though.

Really though, real attrition numbers would be interesting. I’ve said for a while now that Envoy will lose the pilots whether they metered flow or not.

Unless you are flowing within the next year or two, waiting around is foolish. Especially if you’re a new hire. The goal should be to enhance your resume and make yourself as marketable as possible to a legacy. The exception would be the guys that aren’t marketable to a legacy, i.e. no college degree, dings on their record, poor GPA, etc...Otherwise, there is no need to wait around 8+ years to flow. Anyone hired here within the last year or so needs to stay hungry and do everything they can to build that resume.

highfarfast
11-08-2017, 12:57 PM
Unless you are flowing within the next year or two, waiting around is foolish. Especially if you’re a new hire. The goal should be to enhance your resume and make yourself as marketable as possible to a legacy. The exception would be the guys that aren’t marketable to a legacy, i.e. no college degree, dings on their record, poor GPA, etc...Otherwise, there is no need to wait around 8+ years to flow. Anyone hired here within the last year or so needs to stay hungry and do everything they can to build that resume.

Which is why I think flow is worthless for most. Even some of those issues you called exceptions I don’t think will be issues 3 years from now unless they look ‘chronic’ but we won’t know just exactly how that part will shake out yet.

Yeah, Envoy has a real flow. So what. You’re gonna get hired for your next job before you see it happen. :cool:

123494
11-08-2017, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=highfarfast;2462228]The lack of a degree is a problem for the better jobs today. But three years from now it may not be. Honestly though, it was one of the things I was thinking of when I said ‘less than ideal resume’ BUT in a few years majors and legacies will have to decide how important that piece of paper is.

Keep telling yourself that. I'm getting the degree done so it's one less thing to worry about.

highfarfast
11-08-2017, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=highfarfast;2462228]The lack of a degree is a problem for the better jobs today. But three years from now it may not be. Honestly though, it was one of the things I was thinking of when I said ‘less than ideal resume’ BUT in a few years majors and legacies will have to decide how important that piece of paper is.

Keep telling yourself that. I'm getting the degree done so it's one less thing to worry about.

Lol. OK. I’ve had the degree for about 20 years now so not worried about it and don’t need to “keep telling myself that”. Relax man. ;)

TheGoodOne
11-15-2017, 05:33 PM
Apologies for my ignorance.

Can an Envoy pilot apply to AA directly versus wait for flow?

If one does, does he or she lose the option of flowing somehow?

Thanks.

Boogerface
11-15-2017, 06:55 PM
Apologies for my ignorance.

Can an Envoy pilot apply to AA directly versus wait for flow? Yes

If one does, does he or she lose the option of flowing somehow? No

Thanks.

Answered above.

TheGoodOne
11-16-2017, 02:55 AM
Answered above.
Thanks!! Appreciate that. Someone told me there was a “penalty”.

use2fly
11-16-2017, 01:25 PM
Thanks!! Appreciate that. Someone told me there was a “penalty”.

Only if you wait for the flow.

itsmytime
11-16-2017, 01:49 PM
Thanks!! Appreciate that. Someone told me there was a “penalty”.

Never believe anything negative about flow from someone that doesn't have it. Guys without it look for all kinds of reasons that it is terrible, all of which aren't true.

Tpinks
11-16-2017, 04:41 PM
Never believe anything negative about flow from someone that doesn't have it. Guys without it look for all kinds of reasons that it is terrible, all of which aren't true.

And yet here is a thread claiming the flow is being Violated...

3EngineTaxi
11-30-2017, 07:58 AM
It's the last day of November. Has anyone heard the final AA hiring numbers for the month? I'm assuming 50 percent did not happen, but I guess it becomes official after today.

HardLemonade
11-30-2017, 09:29 AM
It's the last day of November. Has anyone heard the final AA hiring numbers for the month? I'm assuming 50 percent did not happen, but I guess it becomes official after today.

You know what will really show them? Leave the APU running and do a 3 engine taxi. That will really stick it to the company and bring them to their knees. That's my opinion anyway..

Every APU Stop request sent to the FADEC is an angel that loses it's wings.

Boogerface
11-30-2017, 10:21 AM
It's the last day of November. Has anyone heard the final AA hiring numbers for the month? I'm assuming 50 percent did not happen, but I guess it becomes official after today.

Both the 11/7 and 11/28 classes had 42 new hires each.

Envoy sent 25 for the month.

Next AA class is 1/9/18.

3EngineTaxi
12-01-2017, 02:50 PM
Flow was supposed to be 50% in November.

Flow was 29.8% in November.

While not unexpected, it is disappointing. To those who maintain optimism that flow will happen on schedule, the flow projections have been delayed again.

The company is supposed to do "everything in its power" to send 50%. Clearly, that hasn't happened. Every month the required 50% doesn't flow, every single junior pilot downstream is irreparably harmed.

GodIsGood
12-01-2017, 06:08 PM
Shouldn't we be picketing this, organized by ALPA?

Datsun
12-05-2017, 11:55 PM
Wasn't this flow reduction always the plan?

This was posted 2/1/2017 @07:09 pm in the Envoy thread. I remembered reading something like this about Envoy's flow; I had to search for it.

From their own materials, (Q3 2016), they had 202 of the 824 group, flowing at 30/mo (7 months), 1109 of the Protected Pilot group flowing at 25/mo (44 months), 149 of the DOS group flowing at 15/mo (10 months), and 295 new hires after 12/14 flowing at 15/mo (20 months)

If they added 30/mo for 10/16 thru 1/2017 = 120 NH (8 months to flow them)

With NO attrition, I add the months 7 + 44 + 10 + 20 + 8 = 89 months + 10/2016 = 3/2024 flow date for a 2/2017 NH. 7 years!
or to answer your question, the first NH after 12/14 will flow at 61 months from 10/16, or 11/21.

However, attrition is huge - they have 1800 pilots. If one assumes 15/month (about 1%) attrition, which will be all senior to the NH in the beginning (though all junior at the end). This means a quicker flow.
So I would guess that 7 years is the outside number. I think they are posting inside 6 yr flow, and I think that is not outlandish. But don't think 3-4 years - no one is projecting that.

No, I don't work there.

3EngineTaxi
12-06-2017, 06:56 AM
Wasn't this flow reduction always the plan?

Maybe it was always the plan, but that doesn't make it right. It's currently supposed to be at 50%.

ORDinary
12-06-2017, 10:17 AM
Wasn't this flow reduction always the plan?


Not according to our management, as well as numerous company apologists on this site. RW emailed the pilot group last January and told us to expect 330+. Posters on here (like CR700, who claims to work on the management side) told pilots to "expect" 40/month to flow beginning last January, others said to expect 360+. Whenever anyone pointed out that 330+ or 40/month were unlikely, we were attacked for being too negative, or having an agenda. I haven't been able to find a confirmed final number of flows for the year, but I think it was about 260.

Bigpimppilot
12-06-2017, 11:10 AM
Ordinary, how dare you use their propaganda against them. Your just an envoy hater. Lol

DilsonWic
12-06-2017, 11:58 AM
Not according to our management, as well as numerous company apologists on this site. RW emailed the pilot group last January and told us to expect 330+. Posters on here (like CR700, who claims to work on the management side) told pilots to "expect" 40/month to flow beginning last January, others said to expect 360+. Whenever anyone pointed out that 330+ or 40/month were unlikely, we were attacked for being too negative, or having an agenda. I haven't been able to find a confirmed final number of flows for the year, but I think it was about 260.

According to the ALPA 824 link we flowed number 656 to 917 in 2017. So 261 total.

Virga show
12-06-2017, 12:18 PM
According to the ALPA 824 link we flowed number 656 to 917 in 2017. So 261 total.

Let’s just merge with AA like a woman in heat needing a man’s donkey donk. Then they take take their scope up my ass.

criticalaoa
12-06-2017, 12:24 PM
This is bullmierda my friend. We should be flowing the right amount. I need to collect my pesos and blow it on hookers.. hurry up and flow

ORDinary
12-06-2017, 01:16 PM
According to the ALPA 824 link we flowed number 656 to 917 in 2017. So 261 total.

In January 2016, RW said we would flow 300+ for the year. We flowed 254. Wonder how many he will claim for 2018.

Looking back a couple years at the flow estimates on other threads is pretty amusing. A few people claimed we would flow 750 in 2016/2017 as if it was set in stone.

bigtime209
12-06-2017, 03:36 PM
In January 2016, RW said we would flow 300+ for the year. We flowed 254. Wonder how many he will claim for 2018.

Looking back a couple years at the flow estimates on other threads is pretty amusing. A few people claimed we would flow 750 in 2016/2017 as if it was set in stone.

A buddy of mine was talking with him a few weeks ago and he said that we'd flow 275 or more. Which would break down to 25/month Jan-Nov.

ORDinary
12-06-2017, 05:36 PM
A buddy of mine was talking with him a few weeks ago and he said that we'd flow 275 or more. Which would break down to 25/month Jan-Nov.

That sounds realistic. A hiccup or two could happen to slow it further, but at least it is possible, unlike the last two years' estimates.

Jersdawg
12-06-2017, 05:57 PM
That sounds realistic. A hiccup or two could happen to slow it further, but at least it is possible, unlike the last two years' estimates.

Any more would be surprising. Less would be surprising, too, since AA is due to hire 900 next year - less would mean something got really screwed up with the airline or the world.

bigtime209
12-06-2017, 06:01 PM
Any more would be surprising. Less would be surprising, too, since AA is due to hire 900 next year - less would mean something got really screwed up with the airline or the world.

Agreed. I would imagine 275 is going to be a pretty solid number...knock on wood.

ORDinary
12-07-2017, 05:40 AM
Any more would be surprising. Less would be surprising, too, since AA is due to hire 900 next year - less would mean something got really screwed up with the airline or the world.

The likeliest delay to me seems like another training department backlog. Have they ever gone more than 6 months without one?

Jersdawg
12-07-2017, 06:28 AM
The likeliest delay to me seems like another training department backlog. Have they ever gone more than 6 months without one?

I hear you on that. I think they really NEED to have their **** together next year, which is why I think they'll be ramped up enough to avoid a backlog. Just my 2¢

ORDinary
12-07-2017, 03:21 PM
I hear you on that. I think they really NEED to have their **** together next year, which is why I think they'll be ramped up enough to avoid a backlog. Just my 2¢

I agree, it seems like they need to work out the kinks already- it's not like hiring is going to really slow any time soon.

highflyer1980
12-08-2017, 07:53 AM
They won’t fix anything until the operation suffers. That’s priority one. Always has been, always will be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

maniac28
12-08-2017, 09:45 AM
They won’t fix anything until the operation suffers. That’s priority one. Always has been, always will be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

There isn't a d**** thing here they do proactively. Then when they do finally do something its usually too little too late.

3EngineTaxi
12-26-2017, 07:26 AM
Loyalty to one's employer is not rewarded in this world. If you want to improve your career, fight for improvements at your workplace while at the same time, look to move up elsewhere.

Waiting for the flow is a joke that will disappoint you in the end. Flow has never been less than 12 years so far. There are 4 major airlines currently hiring with minimal requirements, as well as 2 quality cargo airlines. Update your applications every week. Try to beat the flow if possible.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any other entity or employer.

Virga show
12-26-2017, 08:57 AM
Loyalty to one's employer is not rewarded in this world. If you want to improve your career, fight for improvements at your workplace while at the same time, look to move up elsewhere.

Waiting for the flow is a joke that will disappoint you in the end. Flow has never been less than 12 years so far. There are 4 major airlines currently hiring with minimal requirements, as well as 2 quality cargo airlines. Update your applications every week. Try to beat the flow if possible.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any other entity or employer.

In the next 4 years few will be waiting on the flow. The flow is just a insurance policy for those who messed up along the way or don’t have a degree. For those people they don’t have a choice.

3EngineTaxi
12-26-2017, 09:04 AM
In the next 4 years few will be waiting on the flow. The flow is just a insurance policy for those who messed up along the way or don’t have a degree. For those people they don’t have a choice.
I hope you're right, but people have been saying that for years. Every single pilot should be actively updating applications at the big 4.

Virga show
12-26-2017, 01:02 PM
I hope you're right, but people have been saying that for years. Every single pilot should be actively updating applications at the big 4.

True, but we are finally hitting the 65 age rule 5 years later after they extended it. This is the big game changer from all the past years. Of course they could extend it to 70 but I doubt anybody wants to work until 70 even if it is flying.

ag386
12-26-2017, 01:24 PM
True, but we are finally hitting the 65 age rule 5 years later after they extended it. This is the big game changer from all the past years. Of course they could extend it to 70 but I doubt anybody wants to work until 70 even if it is flying.

Sorry, you are a little off on your dates. The age 65 rule plus 5 years that you described above was due to the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act (Public Law 110-135), signed by the President on December 13, 2007. Anyone 64 years 364 days old on that day continued on for 5 additional years if they desired and could hold a medical.

December 2012 is when those guys flushed. However, others that would have originally been forced retired at 60 were able to continue then as well. This keeps going today with everyone on any list.

Virga show
12-26-2017, 02:36 PM
Sorry, you are a little off on your dates. The age 65 rule plus 5 years that you described above was due to the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act (Public Law 110-135), signed by the President on December 13, 2007. Anyone 64 years 364 days old on that day continued on for 5 additional years if they desired and could hold a medical.

December 2012 is when those guys flushed. However, others that would have originally been forced retired at 60 were able to continue then as well. This keeps going today with everyone on any list.

Thanks for the clarification. The only point I’m trying to make is that we now are feeling the affects of that rule and will be feeling them for a long time. This 65 rule will be the reason why a street captain at envoy (let’s just call it what it actually is) won’t be waiting around 8-9 years for the flow. More like 2-4 years to be hired by a legacy.

stbloc
12-30-2017, 06:02 PM
Assuming one wanted to wait for the flow how long is it estimated at right now for a new hire? I'm reading so many numbers here it's making my head spin. 300- 400 a year makes it sound like 4-5years.

Virga show
12-30-2017, 06:31 PM
Assuming one wanted to wait for the flow how long is it estimated at right now for a new hire? I'm reading so many numbers here it's making my head spin. 300- 400 a year makes it sound like 4-5years.

8-9 years to flow for new hire

ORDinary
12-30-2017, 07:17 PM
300- 400 a year makes it sound like 4-5years.

300-400 a year has never happened and never will. 275 is best case scenario for this year and maybe next, and then contractually it goes down.

Armybeatnavy
12-30-2017, 08:21 PM
I have seen people already bailing for JetBlue and Southwest. The way the company is violating the flow is ridiculous.




Essayons

stbloc
12-30-2017, 10:04 PM
So if people are bailing wont that in theroy drive down the flow time. Very few would hang around 9 years. Just my opinion. If Jet Blue or Spirit called in year 2 or 3 why wait. Just my thought.

Virga show
12-31-2017, 11:40 AM
So if people are bailing wont that in theroy drive down the flow time. Very few would hang around 9 years. Just my opinion. If Jet Blue or Spirit called in year 2 or 3 why wait. Just my thought.

Most people won’t bail for Spirit unless they get a new contract

ag386
12-31-2017, 07:31 PM
Most people won’t bail for Spirit unless they get a new contract

Bad move. They will get a new contract in the near future. Waiting to see what the details are will make it more difficult to get in with more applicants after the announcement. Then you are giving up seniority by waiting. To do what, stay around Envoy hoping QOL will improve and management will stop violating the flow?