Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Well there it is Bluebelles.


Bluedriver
11-09-2017, 07:03 AM
Absolute confirmation no agreement by the end of 2017.

If only someone could have told you a year ago this was going to happen.

I KNOW, there I go just being negative again. Keep rowing!


rightside02
11-09-2017, 09:57 AM
How is this. ?

airtim6
11-09-2017, 10:23 AM
Absolute confirmation no agreement by the end of 2017.

If only someone could have told you a year ago this was going to happen.

I KNOW, there I go just being negative again. Keep rowing!

That's what you got from that email?


Southerner
11-09-2017, 10:25 AM
That's what you got from that email?



Cut him some slack. His reading comprehension isnít great.

nuball5
11-09-2017, 10:33 AM
Hopefully the NC just keeps doing what they're doing and isn't distracted by that email. They've already had the company increase their compensation proposal two or three times since negotiations started, and we haven't even started picketing yet.

Bluedriver
11-09-2017, 10:51 AM
That's what you got from that email?

If you actually read the email it makes it clear they won't be negotiating on contentious issues again until January.

It says explicitly that the meetings in November and December will be spent on language for sections already TA'd.

Does it not say exactly that?

Southerner?

rvr1800
11-09-2017, 10:57 AM
Man I was really hoping that no one responded to this thread.

say again
11-09-2017, 11:03 AM
Man I was really hoping that no one responded to this thread.

Yeah, good call! :cool:

CaptCoolHand
11-09-2017, 11:09 AM
Crass for sure, but he's not wrong.

This was a full fledged attempt at lowering expectations. DO NOT let it.

The difference between "measurable" and "significant" are arbitrary.

I'm sure whatever was passed across the table was promptly shuffled to the circular file as the NC moved on to the next discussion.

Moving along.

Xtreme87
11-09-2017, 11:18 AM
What it fails to mention is how are Jetblue and AK going to compete for pilots when they are # 4 and 5 in terms of pay and benefits? Nobody wants sloppy 4th and 5th when 1, 2, and 3 are hiring a 1000+ a year.

Bluedriver
11-09-2017, 11:28 AM
What it fails to mention is how are Jetblue and AK going to compete for pilots when they are # 4 and 5 in terms of pay and benefits? Nobody wants sloppy 4th and 5th when 1, 2, and 3 are hiring a 1000+ a year.

Actually 5th and 6th.

Bluedriver
11-09-2017, 11:30 AM
Man I was really hoping that no one responded to this thread.

Tell me the email didn't say exactly what I said it did?

Bluedriver
11-09-2017, 11:55 AM
Ha, silence as blueberry bubbles burst all over the country.

You hope salesman are gonna have to try a lot harder, I wonder what your NEW hope-deadline is gonna be? Summer 2017, nope. Full year 2017, nope. Can't wait to hear the new almost done hope-deadline!

Crass, yep. I'd rather hear the crass truth than false hope.

rvr1800
11-09-2017, 12:06 PM
Crass for sure, but he's not wrong.

This was a full fledged attempt at lowering expectations. DO NOT let it.

The difference between "measurable" and "significant" are arbitrary.

I'm sure whatever was passed across the table was promptly shuffled to the circular file as the NC moved on to the next discussion.

Moving along.

I agree completely. I wonít argue a timeline. Could be years. I was just hoping to not have another thread of Bluedriver telling us all how smart he is. Too late.

queue
11-09-2017, 12:40 PM
Absolute confirmation no agreement by the end of 2017.

If only someone could have told you a year ago this was going to happen.

I KNOW, there I go just being negative again. Keep rowing!

It just confirms what you guys already knew. JB will not compensate without a fight. That's just how the game is played. Kind of like the core values: that's for the little people to believe in because they certainly don't equate "doing the right thing" to paying market rate for pilot professional skills. Use their own core values against them...

I really don't think JB or any airline will ever have problems getting pilots. There are far too many people out there willing to work for peanuts. Write your servant politicians and tell them not to lower the 1500 hr rule.

Keep up the fight. Remember everything they say is meant to keep you from achieving your goal. Think of JB emails as the modern day Tokyo Rose. The more they make you feel hopeless, the more they've won without firing a shot. You need to get to either a strike or arbitration as soon as possible, without compromising (compromise already occured from lack of pay/work rules since the beginning of the airline). Remember that even if you lose at arbitration like Alaska sort-of did, you (and they) can still do informational picketing or taking out ads in papers to continually attack them. Don't let yourself be on the defensive, ever. Be on the offensive. Your goal as a POW is to be a persistent thorn in their side. This industry is already full of defeatists and apologists (98% of all pilots).

I heard someone say it best: "These people understand only two things: (1) legal judgments, (2) impacts on their bottom line."

Use the legal system against them. Up till now they are maximizing their use of the legal system (stalling) until a mediator stepped in. Continue to attack them on not meeting negotiation timelines. Never let them get more time. Don't give them an inch! Bury them in grievances and lawsuits as appropriate. All those pay "discrepancies" are legal matters first and foremost. Don't do their work for them by helping to fix issues. JB will allow them to keep occurring unless there's a legal mandate of some kind to stop them. Believe me, they will not do anything that benefits you unless you fight for it. At my airline it was always a legal/financial battle at the end.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/JOAK_microphone_%26_Tokyo_Rose%2C_National_Museum_ of_American_History.jpg

CaptCoolHand
11-09-2017, 12:42 PM
I agree completely. I wonít argue a timeline. Could be years. I was just hoping to not have another thread of Bluedriver telling us all how smart he is. Too late.

I hear ya man... I hear ya.

say again
11-09-2017, 12:50 PM
I agree completely. I wonít argue a timeline. Could be years. I was just hoping to not have another thread of Bluedriver telling us all how smart he is. Too late.

Right on. What's not too late is lighting up the grill and getting the last few uses out of it up here in the northeast.

queue
11-09-2017, 12:52 PM
I agree completely. I wonít argue a timeline. Could be years. I was just hoping to not have another thread of Bluedriver telling us all how smart he is. Too late.

It's been years. The reason it doesn't take a month is because 98% of all pilots are defeatists and apologists. They are also naiive and ignorant of business standards for professionals.

Remember that anything is possible up to the laws of physics. JB could be made to decide to give you what you want overnight if they had enough reason to. Don't settle for the mediocre timelines of history. Believe me, if investors raked JB and the CEO over the coals for not paying pilots industry rate, it would happen overnight. Think about that before you defeat yourselves. Think with a warrior mindset.

https://crashmacduff.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/iwo-jima.jpg

pilotpayne
11-09-2017, 01:00 PM
I hear ya man... I hear ya.

I know he just went from ego to super ego:cool:

seekingblue
11-09-2017, 01:55 PM
Are we saying FUPM yet? Or is that just from the ďother site.Ē

+1 vote for FUPM, especially after the last email.

CaptCoolHand
11-09-2017, 02:04 PM
I know he just went from ego to super ego:cool:

Between this thread and the "bias" drift, I wanna slit my wrists.

pilotpayne
11-09-2017, 02:05 PM
Between this thread and the "bias" drift, I wanna slit my wrists.

Look at you helping me get off reserve :)

Bozo the pilot
11-09-2017, 04:15 PM
Isn't the real concern is the lack of a CBA in the next 12 months?
Id be pleasantly surprised if we had a TA before next Fall without picketing sessions and even a strike vote.
The email showed mild progress from the company, but nothing else.
The NC seems like they're all over this though.

Wanna go double or nothin PP? Jkg- just write that check;)

The701Express
11-09-2017, 06:53 PM
This is a distraction by management. Their desire to get us to agree to the cheapest CBA hasn't changed.

By making this statement directly to the pilot group they're attempting to create fear amongst us that we aren't worth as much as we truly are. They want to create uncertainty about our negotiation positions and foment doubt in our union leadership and our strategy.

Don't buy into it.

The company just demonstrated their fear of our unity. Fear of the same unity that voted 74% in favor of union representation over 3 years ago.

We work for a successful and profitable airline that can afford our reasonable proposals. They will in fact benefit greatly over the long term investing in a group of natural leaders who have been instrumental in building this airline into what it is today despite the lack of support from management and a "do more with less" attitude that prevails here.

The company felt the need to communicate directly with us for a reason. If negotiations were proceeding the way management wanted, they would have little reason to try talking directly to the pilot group.

There are many differences between Alaska's JCBA arbitration ruling and our full section 6 negotiations. Comparing their arbitration ruling with our negotiating situation ignores the reality of the industry as a whole and is fundamentally flawed.

As a pilot group we are gaining more leverage in negotiations with every step of the strategic plan that's implemented. Every billboard, every newspaper ad help strengthen our position. The next steps will only help us more. As mediation continues, the reasonableness of our positions will only help our cause in the eyes of the mediator and NMB. Additionally our professional attitudes and behavior at work reaffirms that.

Its been a long slog to get to this point and I'm as frustrated as anyone. But we are finally at a point where the situation only gets worse for the company if they don't want to play ball.

Now is the time to stick to the plan. We will not have a contract forced on us by an arbitrator. Ask P2P volunteers, your LEC reps, even the MEC and negotiating committee members questions. If you can't get involved, at least get informed and help inform others you fly with or meet at work.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It's time for us to further strengthen our resolve, educate each other and make sure every link in that chain is as strong as the one next to it.

dvmthwsvan
11-09-2017, 10:29 PM
One major difference that surely the company knows is Alaska management had to meet an arbitratorís expectations. JB management has to meet our expectations. WE vote yay or nay. Nothing will be imposed.

captsurf
11-10-2017, 03:41 AM
Are we saying FUPM yet? Or is that just from the ďother site.Ē



+1 vote for FUPM, especially after the last email.



I thought I left that saying behind at Atlas. Guess I need to dust off the pins and stickers...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pilotpayne
11-10-2017, 04:32 AM
This is a distraction by management. Their desire to get us to agree to the cheapest CBA hasn't changed.

By making this statement directly to the pilot group they're attempting to create fear amongst us that we aren't worth as much as we truly are. They want to create uncertainty about our negotiation positions and foment doubt in our union leadership and our strategy.

Don't buy into it.

The company just demonstrated their fear of our unity. Fear of the same unity that voted 74% in favor of union representation over 3 years ago.

We work for a successful and profitable airline that can afford our reasonable proposals. They will in fact benefit greatly over the long term investing in a group of natural leaders who have been instrumental in building this airline into what it is today despite the lack of support from management and a "do more with less" attitude that prevails here.

The company felt the need to communicate directly with us for a reason. If negotiations were proceeding the way management wanted, they would have little reason to try talking directly to the pilot group.

There are many differences between Alaska's JCBA arbitration ruling and our full section 6 negotiations. Comparing their arbitration ruling with our negotiating situation ignores the reality of the industry as a whole and is fundamentally flawed.

As a pilot group we are gaining more leverage in negotiations with every step of the strategic plan that's implemented. Every billboard, every newspaper ad help strengthen our position. The next steps will only help us more. As mediation continues, the reasonableness of our positions will only help our cause in the eyes of the mediator and NMB. Additionally our professional attitudes and behavior at work reaffirms that.

Its been a long slog to get to this point and I'm as frustrated as anyone. But we are finally at a point where the situation only gets worse for the company if they don't want to play ball.

Now is the time to stick to the plan. We will not have a contract forced on us by an arbitrator. Ask P2P volunteers, your LEC reps, even the MEC and negotiating committee members questions. If you can't get involved, at least get informed and help inform others you fly with or meet at work.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It's time for us to further strengthen our resolve, educate each other and make sure every link in that chain is as strong as the one next to it.

A very good post.

402DRVR
11-10-2017, 08:20 AM
What is FUPM?

BeatNavy
11-10-2017, 08:30 AM
What is FUPM?

Google is your friend. Or maybe you guys should meet.

hilltopflyer
11-10-2017, 09:35 AM
What is FUPM?

F U Pay me
No waivers, no favors type stuff

TristarJS30
11-10-2017, 12:11 PM
What is FUPM?

Someone needs to watch Goodfella's...

BeatNavy
11-10-2017, 12:13 PM
Someone needs to watch Goodfella's...

And ďconfessions of a union busterĒ by APA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgjII4CRi4

BunkerF16
11-10-2017, 12:38 PM
Someone needs to watch Goodfella's...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48

402DRVR
11-10-2017, 03:25 PM
Someone needs to watch Goodfella's...

After the kids go to bed.

coopervane
11-10-2017, 07:30 PM
And ďconfessions of a union busterĒ by APA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgjII4CRi4

EVERYONE needs to watch that video.....

slimothy
11-11-2017, 06:54 AM
Well, the unionís response was pretty short and sweet!

captsurf
11-13-2017, 04:43 AM
Does anyone know when the FA's union card campaign is over if it already isn't? I'd be hard pressed to think the pilots get a reasonable offer while inflight is trying to unionize. Don't think the company wants them to have more evidence to support unionizing. Not saying that's the only reason for the current state of affairs, but could definitely be a factor maybe?

atrdriver
11-13-2017, 07:08 AM
Does anyone know when the FA's union card campaign is over if it already isn't? I'd be hard pressed to think the pilots get a reasonable offer while inflight is trying to unionize. Don't think the company wants them to have more evidence to support unionizing. Not saying that's the only reason for the current state of affairs, but could definitely be a factor maybe?

Not taking issue with your point here, I'm just curious...

How far behind their "peers" in pay are our FAs? I can't imagine it is 30-40% like we are, but really I have no idea what they make.

hilltopflyer
11-13-2017, 07:31 AM
Not taking issue with your point here, I'm just curious...

How far behind their "peers" in pay are our FAs? I can't imagine it is 30-40% like we are, but really I have no idea what they make.

Theirs is loooowwww suprised anyone wants to be a fa here

captsurf
11-13-2017, 07:55 AM
Not taking issue with your point here, I'm just curious...



How far behind their "peers" in pay are our FAs? I can't imagine it is 30-40% like we are, but really I have no idea what they make.



One told me they start out at $14/hr here. I've also heard $19-$20ish. I know as of 12/01/15 Delta inflight started around $27-$30. I believe compared to industry average, they are "closer" than ours. But they could be above average, and still say "look, the pilots got a 40% raise. This is why we need a union." Not saying they don't need one, but I'm sure the company doesn't want to fuel that fire.

Not to mention their $0 hourly wage when they double as cabin cleaners.

BeatNavy
11-13-2017, 08:03 AM
One told me they start out at $14/hr here. I've also heard $19-$20ish. I know as of 12/01/15 Delta inflight started around $27-$30. I believe compared to industry average, they are "closer" than ours. But they could be above average, and still say "look, the pilots got a 40% raise. This is why we need a union." Not saying they don't need one, but I'm sure the company doesn't want to fuel that fire.

Not to mention their $0 hourly wage when they double as cabin cleaners.

I think the company fuels that fire on a daily basis. Paying customers to rat on them for legally using their cell phones, abusing them daily, writing them up for being a minute late to the gate, airport standby, etc. I could never do inflight here if if being an FA was in my cards. Also, they get paid 15 mins a day for cleaning I believe.

captsurf
11-13-2017, 08:13 AM
Also, they get paid 15 mins a day for cleaning I believe.


Well that I did not know... but agree with all of your points. I don't think I could be an FA, period. The stuff they have to deal with and still wear that fake smile all day. I couldn't do it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Xtreme87
11-13-2017, 08:27 AM
The FAís have virtually no work rules here. How they havenít unionized yet is beyond me.

Bozo the pilot
11-13-2017, 09:30 AM
The FAís have virtually no work rules here. How they havenít unionized yet is beyond me.

One just mentioned they're at 60%. Not sure if that's enough but she mentioned "cards are at 60%".
Hope they get the union.
B6 deserves all work-groups to be unionized.

HeloBubba53
11-13-2017, 11:09 AM
One told me they start out at $14/hr here. I've also heard $19-$20ish. I know as of 12/01/15 Delta inflight started around $27-$30. I believe compared to industry average, they are "closer" than ours. But they could be above average, and still say "look, the pilots got a 40% raise. This is why we need a union." Not saying they don't need one, but I'm sure the company doesn't want to fuel that fire.

Not to mention their $0 hourly wage when they double as cabin cleaners.

I had no idea Inflight was attempting to unionize. Can anyone confirm this or share any details?

Their pay chart can be found in Comply under Inflight Scheduling Manual (ISM). It ranges from $25 - $54 year 1 to 13.

jetliner1526
11-13-2017, 02:18 PM
One just mentioned they're at 60%. Not sure if that's enough but she mentioned "cards are at 60%".
Hope they get the union.
B6 deserves all work-groups to be unionized.

60%? All they need is 50% plus 1, correct?

captsurf
11-13-2017, 03:11 PM
60%? All they need is 50% plus 1, correct?

I believe this is just a campaign to call for an election. They actually only need 30% by law to trigger an election. But, the higher the percentage, the more bargaining leverage they have by saying they represent the "majority" of the workforce, if a union is voted in during the next phase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

txbusdriver
11-15-2017, 09:20 PM
The union wants cards from 80%. A FA told me they have 75%.

jetliner1526
11-16-2017, 06:31 AM
I believe this is just a campaign to call for an election. They actually only need 30% by law to trigger an election. But, the higher the percentage, the more bargaining leverage they have by saying they represent the "majority" of the workforce, if a union is voted in during the next phase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. Good luck to them.

Xtreme87
11-16-2017, 10:04 AM
Itíll be nice to work with inflights who arenít completely exhausted and beat down all the time for a change.

Bluedriver
12-27-2017, 10:46 AM
Keep swimming Bluebell rats. Not even close to Alaska rates.

Bozo the pilot
12-27-2017, 11:17 AM
Keep swimming Bluebell rats. Not even close to Alaska rates.

Strike vote - A company this far out of touch needs more than info picketing.

atrdriver
12-27-2017, 11:21 AM
Keep swimming Bluebell rats. Not even close to Alaska rates.

That's what management thinks of them... not worth Alaska rates despite them sucking up! It's unfortunate some people are so lacking in self-worth.

I'll channel pilotpayne here and show some optimism though.... I think we can achieve market rate despite the juicers' best efforts to subvert the pilot group. If they think our raise will bankrupt our cash-flush company, they can take their raise and buy a bunch of last minute tickets on empty flights to help offset it.

pilotpayne
12-27-2017, 11:43 AM
That's what management thinks of them... not worth Alaska rates despite them sucking up! It's unfortunate some people are so lacking in self-worth.

I'll channel pilotpayne here and show some optimism though.... I think we can achieve market rate despite the juicers' best efforts to subvert the pilot group. If they think our raise will bankrupt our cash-flush company, they can take their raise and buy a bunch of last minute tickets on empty flights to help offset it.

You rang.

We will get a market rate contract unless the union is lying to us. They have said that is their goal and I doubt they will give us anything to vote on that isnít. Heck they could have done that 3 years ago. Look Iím sure the NC team has had this info for sometime now. Hmmmmm why release it now? Maybe because we are going into a full labor dispute (but I think you could argue we have been in one) we have signs, trucks with signs, Facebook and Twitter campaigns and are about to go and informational picket. Rally the base and turn up the heat and pressure the company. Almost seems like the union has a plan;)

atrdriver
12-27-2017, 12:03 PM
You rang.

We will get a market rate contract unless the union is lying to us. They have said that is their goal and I doubt they will give us anything to vote on that isnít. Heck they could have done that 3 years ago. Look Iím sure the NC team has had this info for sometime now. Hmmmmm why release it now? Maybe because we are going into a full labor dispute (but I think you could argue we have been in one) we have signs, trucks with signs, Facebook and Twitter campaigns and are about to go and informational picket. Rally the base and turn up the heat and pressure the company. Almost seems like the union has a plan;)

Agree on all.

Xtreme87
12-27-2017, 02:40 PM
You rang.

We will get a market rate contract unless the union is lying to us. They have said that is their goal and I doubt they will give us anything to vote on that isnít. Heck they could have done that 3 years ago. Look Iím sure the NC team has had this info for sometime now. Hmmmmm why release it now? Maybe because we are going into a full labor dispute (but I think you could argue we have been in one) we have signs, trucks with signs, Facebook and Twitter campaigns and are about to go and informational picket. Rally the base and turn up the heat and pressure the company. Almost seems like the union has a plan;)

Except if management can kick the can down the road until the next economic downturn, and then cry headwinds and tough times ahead. Iíve said it before and Iíll say it again, until people stop showing up to work here, they will not have any incentive to offer a market rate contract. We shall see how much they really think our ad campaigns and picketing will hurt the brand. Otherwise, the chances of us getting released to strike are slim to none. Honestly if we donít start to see serious progress by June, all hope is lost for a contract anytime soon. 2020? 2025? Maybe.

Bozo the pilot
12-27-2017, 06:03 PM
Except if management can kick the can down the road until the next economic downturn, and then cry headwinds and tough times ahead. Iíve said it before and Iíll say it again, until people stop showing up to work here, they will not have any incentive to offer a market rate contract. We shall see how much they really think our ad campaigns and picketing will hurt the brand. Otherwise, the chances of us getting released to strike are slim to none. Honestly if we donít start to see serious progress by June, all hope is lost for a contract anytime soon. 2020? 2025? Maybe.

Yea anyone who thinks that management is remotely interested in getting us a TA soon is delusional.
Waiting only helps them, unless of course they canít staff the airline, but the little helpers at this airline wonít let that happen.

hilltopflyer
12-27-2017, 06:53 PM
Yea anyone who thinks that management is remotely interested in getting us a TA soon is delusional.
Waiting only helps them, unless of course they canít staff the airline, but the little helpers at this airline wonít let that happen.

Yep. The fact that they haven't even offered Alaska rates (which would be a slap in the face) shows they aren't truly playing ball yet. Our only hope is to pray and hope that the nmb see's through it.

Tom a Hawk
12-27-2017, 07:59 PM
We step correct. We do our job and we do it well. Management continues to deny us what is reasonable and affordable. There is no need for us to do something other than follow our leadership. The MEC, NC, and SPSC have a plan. We are ducks. Get in a row.

hilltopflyer
12-28-2017, 05:49 AM
We step correct. We do our job and we do it well. Management continues to deny us what is reasonable and affordable. There is no need for us to do something other than follow our leadership. The MEC, NC, and SPSC have a plan. We are ducks. Get in a row.

Yep. Don't pull a spirit

Xtreme87
12-28-2017, 05:54 AM
The fact that management wonít even offer Alaska rates is such a spit in the face. Basically the same airline. What a joke. I just hope they donít go and outsource our flying before we get a contract. Drop all the 190ís to Skywest and call it a day.

CaptCoolHand
12-28-2017, 06:04 AM
The fact that management wonít even offer Alaska rates is such a spit in the face. Basically the same airline. What a joke. I just hope they donít go and outsource our flying before we get a contract. Drop all the 190ís to Skywest and call it a day.

They can't give the 190 to skywest... It would violate all their feeders scope.

pilotpayne
12-28-2017, 06:21 AM
The fact that management wonít even offer Alaska rates is such a spit in the face. Basically the same airline. What a joke. I just hope they donít go and outsource our flying before we get a contract. Drop all the 190ís to Skywest and call it a day.

Scope seemed to be the one area we almost have done.

Xtreme87
12-28-2017, 06:45 AM
Scope seemed to be the one area we almost have done.

Hope itís 100% in house or itís a no vote from me.

Bluedriver
12-28-2017, 08:59 AM
Scope seemed to be the one area we almost have done.

You haven't said much about the email. Things look how you thought they would right now?

402DRVR
12-28-2017, 09:35 AM
Surprised by this. JetBlue is way off base if they are coming in below Alaska rates and similar rules. If you have not read the arbitration results form Alaska it would be worth the read. I understand we are shooting for more but the arbitration itself made a strong case for why we should expect Alaska type similarities or better.

I also thought the email put out by JetBlue citing the arbitration results was somewhat of a de facto acknowledgement that their contract should serve as a minimum at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, we should be looking at better than Alaska and pushing for market rate all day long, but this really highlights the gulf between where we think we should be and what management thinks we are worth. Very disappointing.

Bluedriver
12-28-2017, 09:43 AM
Surprised by this. JetBlue is way off base if they are coming in below Alaska rates and similar rules. If you have not read the arbitration results form Alaska it would be worth the read. I understand we are shooting for more but the arbitration itself made a strong case for why we should expect Alaska type similarities or better.

I also thought the email put out by JetBlue citing the arbitration results was somewhat of a de facto acknowledgement that their contract should serve as a minimum at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, we should be looking at better than Alaska and pushing for market rate all day long, but this really highlights the gulf between where we think we should be and what management thinks we are worth. Very disappointing.

All true.....

Cloud5urfer
12-28-2017, 10:48 AM
Surprised by this. JetBlue is way off base if they are coming in below Alaska rates and similar rules. If you have not read the arbitration results form Alaska it would be worth the read. I understand we are shooting for more but the arbitration itself made a strong case for why we should expect Alaska type similarities or better.

I also thought the email put out by JetBlue citing the arbitration results was somewhat of a de facto acknowledgement that their contract should serve as a minimum at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, we should be looking at better than Alaska and pushing for market rate all day long, but this really highlights the gulf between where we think we should be and what management thinks we are worth. Very disappointing.

Very disappointing indeed. Really curious if we've received a new pay proposal from the company since the Alaska arbitration ruling came out. If they have, and still came under, screw them.

pilotpayne
12-28-2017, 10:59 AM
You haven't said much about the email. Things look how you thought they would right now?

Only because you asked.
I am surprised that the pay is so different as every rumor out there and even the email from management indicated differently.(talking about ALK pay)
Problem is you and I are not in the room so itís hard to know. Itís interesting that the tone of that email was mostly negative where I would say other emails were more optimistic but as you have said we were not making the progress we should be hence the info war.
With that said yeah I figured many of the sections that could been done would be done with the money ones coming at the end at the very last second. I doubt we TA healthcare without pay rates or pto or any others. They all are intertwined.

But honestly bluedriver I just donít see the point engaging with you. I donít like that you call some of our pilots rats or whatever names you come up with. So I have dialed it back because honestly in the end my opinion does not matter
and internet arguments solve very little.

But if you would like, since we have started our ďdebatesĒ I would say you have been more correct about these things than I have been.

nuball5
12-28-2017, 11:02 AM
Very disappointing indeed. Really curious if we've received a new pay proposal from the company since the Alaska arbitration ruling came out. If they have, and still came under, screw them.

Alaska’s arbitration result was released on October 31st and Jetblue management put another pay proposal on the table during the 10/31-11/2 mediated session...our last mediated session to date. If I had to guess, their proposal was probably somewhere between Hawaiian and Allegiant. The next couple months will be telling I think.

Bluedriver
12-28-2017, 11:36 AM
Only because you asked.
I am surprised that the pay is so different as every rumor out there and even the email from management indicated differently.(talking about ALK pay)
Problem is you and I are not in the room so itís hard to know. Itís interesting that the tone of that email was mostly negative where I would say other emails were more optimistic but as you have said we were not making the progress we should be hence the info war.
With that said yeah I figured many of the sections that could been done would be done with the money ones coming at the end at the very last second. I doubt we TA healthcare without pay rates or pto or any others. They all are intertwined.

But honestly bluedriver I just donít see the point engaging with you. I donít like that you call some of our pilots rats or whatever names you come up with. So I have dialed it back because honestly in the end my opinion does not matter
and internet arguments solve very little.

But if you would like, since we have started our ďdebatesĒ I would say you have been more correct about these things than I have been.

Your ideas about how this should and could be coming together here at the end have been sound. The point of disagreement between us is I do not think management has any intention of closing these final expensive items anytime soon. Not until they have a compelling reason. Right now they have no compelling reason in my opinion. They can argue over spreadsheet numbers and pass insufficient proposals across the table until Trump's third term if they want. This is most likely not getting done anytime soon.

You may not like me calling people Juiceboxes, I don't like being told I'm just being negative and not staying informed. I wouldn't have had to go nuclear if so many of you would have just accepted reality and not put your blind faith in Blue.

pilotpayne
12-28-2017, 12:31 PM
Your ideas about how this should and could be coming together here at the end have been sound. The point of disagreement between us is I do not think management has any intention of closing these final expensive items anytime soon. Not until they have a compelling reason. Right now they have no compelling reason in my opinion. They can argue over spreadsheet numbers and pass insufficient proposals across the table until Trump's third term if they want. This is most likely not getting done anytime soon.

You may not like me calling people Juiceboxes, I don't like being told I'm just being negative and not staying informed. I wouldn't have had to go nuclear if so many of you would have just accepted reality and not put your blind faith in Blue.


I think I would argue with the term blindfaith.

So how about you tell me when you think it will be done. 2018 2019 2020 2021?

You have an easy position not anytime soon.

As for the rest, call people what you want I donít see it as going nuclear I see it as acting like my 2 year old, but to be fair she sure can go nuclear lol

Xtreme87
12-28-2017, 12:32 PM
This whole corporate tax cut will prove how greed is destroying this country. We wonít see a penny more as a result of the tax cut. The greedy pricks are just going to cut themselves bigger bonuses and run to the bank. Trickle down has never worked. The last 30 years of wage stagnation are a great example.

Softpayman
12-28-2017, 01:00 PM
This whole corporate tax cut will prove how greed is destroying this country. We wonít see a penny more as a result of the tax cut. The greedy pricks are just going to cut themselves bigger bonuses and run to the bank. Trickle down has never worked. The last 30 years of wage stagnation are a great example.

All things being equal I think a corporate tax cut IMPROVES our chances at getting a contract.

You think the company sitting at the table with lowered earnings would help our position? How so?

dontsurf
12-28-2017, 01:38 PM
after tax earnings go to the shareholders. JetBlue shareholders do not want the "bonus" from this pathetic tax cut bill to go anywhere but in their pockets, just like every other big corporation's shareholders.

Xtreme87
12-28-2017, 02:10 PM
All things being equal I think a corporate tax cut IMPROVES our chances at getting a contract.

You think the company sitting at the table with lowered earnings would help our position? How so?

Wanna bet? This tax cut wonít get us a contract sooner, nor a better one.

BlueJetDork
12-28-2017, 03:40 PM
after tax earnings go to the shareholders. JetBlue shareholders do not want the "bonus" from this pathetic tax cut bill to go anywhere but in their pockets, just like every other big corporation's shareholders.

Like school teachers?

Bluedriver
12-28-2017, 08:50 PM
Like school teachers?

Yeah those evil school teachers.

aldonite7667
12-29-2017, 04:48 AM
Yeah those evil school teachers.

When you consider the quality of education for what is spent per pupil in public schools; yes, they are evil.

Bluedriver
12-29-2017, 05:16 AM
When you consider the quality of education for what is spent per pupil in public schools; yes, they are evil.

I have several teachers in the family, every one of them fantastic, really cares about their students and does the best they are able to do. Spending less certainly won't help.

The real problem is that you are giving them moldy tattered cloth and expecting them to paint you the Mona Lisa. The general exception is affluent suburbs with professional parents who value education and can support their kids appropriately.

Outside of the affluent suburbs you have too high a proportion of kids without good nutrition, without good role models and good support from a stable home life and parents who value education.

I've seen it up close and personal as my family works in a mixed district. The kids with good parents and good support reliably do much better than the rest. The opposite is also almost always true. It's a failure of a large segment of our society. It's much harder to make a masterpiece out of moldy torn cloth, times millions of students.

Private school is populated primarily by students with parents that by their basic foundational nature value education and are far more likely to provide a stable home and sufficient support.

Softpayman
12-29-2017, 06:10 AM
Wanna bet? This tax cut wonít get us a contract sooner, nor a better one.

Silly of you even to suggest it. How could one possible know what could have been?

You must like difficult negotiations environments. What's your ideal one? Negotiating with a company in Chapter 11 while there are thousands of pilots on the streets?

I ask you; which negotiating environment do you prefer. One in which the company has excess capital or one where the company doesn't?

Would you have preferred a rise in the corporate tax rate to let's say 50%? You think the negotiators would prefer to sit down Jan1 across the table from the company which just took an extra $45,000,000 tax hit per quarter?

aldonite7667
12-29-2017, 06:12 AM
I have several teachers in the family, every one of them fantastic, really cares about their students and does the best they are able to do. Spending less certainly won't help.

The real problem is that you are giving them moldy tattered cloth and expecting them to paint you the Mona Lisa. The general exception is affluent suburbs with professional parents who value education and can support their kids appropriately.

Outside of the affluent suburbs you have too high a proportion of kids without good nutrition, without good role models and good support from a stable home life and parents who value education.

I've seen it up close and personal as my family works in a mixed district. The kids with good parents and good support reliably do much better than the rest. The opposite is also almost always true. It's a failure of a large segment of our society. It's much harder to make a masterpiece out of moldy torn cloth, times millions of students.

Private school is populated primarily by students with parents that by their basic foundational nature value education and are far more likely to provide a stable home and sufficient support.

I donít disagree with any of that. But it is disappointing to see how little school kids get now. It seems every other week there is a vacation, holiday, break, teachers meeting, half day or conference. Schools teach activism and victimization while re writing history instead of reading, math and science. The politicization of schools is sad. In new neighborhoods in Texas they build Billion dollar schools and canít even get kids to speak English in them. On Long Island every week there is a story about a school superintendent who is raiding the coffers and isnít going to jail. The system is corrupt and would benefit from decentralization and completion. How are teachers responsible for this? They are indirectly responsible because they are complicit.

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 06:32 AM
Only because you asked.
I am surprised that the pay is so different as every rumor out there and even the email from management indicated differently.(talking about ALK pay)
Problem is you and I are not in the room so itís hard to know. Itís interesting that the tone of that email was mostly negative where I would say other emails were more optimistic but as you have said we were not making the progress we should be hence the info war.
With that said yeah I figured many of the sections that could been done would be done with the money ones coming at the end at the very last second. I doubt we TA healthcare without pay rates or pto or any others. They all are intertwined.

But honestly bluedriver I just donít see the point engaging with you. I donít like that you call some of our pilots rats or whatever names you come up with. So I have dialed it back because honestly in the end my opinion does not matter
and internet arguments solve very little.

But if you would like, since we have started our ďdebatesĒ I would say you have been more correct about these things than I have been.

This is a stand-up post Payne.
A T/A could have come by Sunday and you would have been correct- And I wish you had been.
This latest email has deflated my hopes of a CBA in 2018. When the attrition #s climb this year, and they will, maybe the company will be motivated. With the amount of extra flying that goes on at B6, why should they want a resolution?
Good luck to all of us who stick and those of us who leave. I hope Im the latter. Tty soon J

Bluedriver
12-29-2017, 06:33 AM
I donít disagree with any of that. But it is disappointing to see how little school kids get now. It seems every other week there is a vacation, holiday, break, teachers meeting, half day or conference. Schools teach activism and victimization while re writing history instead of reading, math and science. The politicization of schools is sad. In new neighborhoods in Texas they build Billion dollar schools and canít even get kids to speak English in them. On Long Island every week there is a story about a school superintendent who is raiding the coffers and isnít going to jail. The system is corrupt and would benefit from decentralization and completion. How are teachers responsible for this? They are indirectly responsible because they are complicit.

There are some problems for sure. Can't say I've seen or experienced some of the ones you mentioned, but no doubt improvements are possible.

I've seen enough first hand to know the problems with our education outcomes start and *almost* end with the students and their home stability/support. At least in my state, which is all I really know.

Obviously corruption of any kind is intolerable.

aldonite7667
12-29-2017, 06:38 AM
There are some problems for sure. Can't say I've seen or experienced some of the ones you mentioned, but no doubt improvements are possible.

I've seen enough first hand to know the problems with our education outcomes start and *almost* end with the students and their home stability/support. At least in my state, which is all I really know.

Obviously corruption of any kind is intolerable.

Agreed.... thread creep rant over. :-)

Bluedriver
12-29-2017, 06:41 AM
Silly of you even to suggest it. How could one possible know what could have been?

You must like difficult negotiations environments. What's your ideal one? Negotiating with a company in Chapter 11 while there are thousands of pilots on the streets?

I ask you; which negotiating environment do you prefer. One in which the company has excess capital or one where the company doesn't?

Would you have preferred a rise in the corporate tax rate to let's say 50%? You think the negotiators would prefer to sit down Jan1 across the table from the company which just took an extra $45,000,000 tax hit per quarter?

The company is not and has not been in any financial difficulty in years. They could well afford our proposals before tax reform, now even more so.

They were NOT motivated to pay us appropriately before tax reform, and they will not be after tax reform.

I agree with the other gentleman, this corporate windfall will not benefit us. They will fight and delay until they finally see a compelling reason to settle. Not before.

They were awash in cash before, even more so now.

Your argument that we want a profitable company across the table is a good one, but mostly irrelevant because a low margin employer was never in the cards during the negotiations anyway.

As to whether or not this tax plan will make any difference in our negotiations, I believe it will not change the actual timeline and as for rates of pay, they were always going to be determined by comparison to our peers, and not by whether or not JB has a 15% operating margin or a 25% operating margin.

Frankly, the company could have a 50% operating margin and they would still delay this CBA until Trump's third term absent a compelling reason to settle.

Xtreme87
12-29-2017, 06:47 AM
The company is not and has not been in any financial difficulty in years. They could well afford our proposals before tax reform, now even more so.

They were NOT motivated to pay us appropriately before tax reform, and they will not be after tax reform.

I agree with the other gentleman, this corporate windfall will not benefit us. They will fight and delay until they finally see a compelling reason to settle. Not before.

They were awash in cash before, even more so now.

Your argument that we want a profitable company across the table is a good one, but mostly irrelevant because a low margin employer was never in the cards during the negotiations anyway.

As to whether or not this tax plan will make any difference in our negotiations, I believe it will not change the actual timeline and as for rates of pay, they were always going to be determined by comparison to our peers, and not by whether or not JB has a 15% operating margin or a 25% operating margin.

Frankly, the company could have a 50% operating margin and they would still delay this CBA until Trump's third term absent a compelling reason to settle.

Yup^ The $750 Million share buy back is proof that they have no intention of paying us a penny more, a second early. They could literally be printing their own money and they wouldnít share it with us. That is the American corporate culture. Greed. They will choke on every last penny before giving it to us.

aldonite7667
12-29-2017, 06:56 AM
You have a few valid points. But, for you to blame a Teacher. This is the most ignorant thing Iíve ever heard on this forum. Yes, nearly all government programs have major flaws. Yes the education system is a disaster. But for you to blame a Teacher is pure and complete ignorance. Most Teachers take a lot of crap on a daily basis from ignorant Parents, who think their Child is the perfect student. Then they get that big fat pay check at the end of the month of $2000. Oh yeah, donít forget they have to make sure they suck up enough to get their contract renewed every year. After a job that requires more formal education than most airlines. Get off this subject which you have no clue about and get back to talking about flying.
By the way. Texas education is a disaster because of the no child left behind program, and because of the State mandated test. Most School funding are based off these test which is why they spend everyday teaching the test instead of teaching core subjects.

Says they guy probably married to a teacher. Ignorant? No. MBA? Yes.

https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.html

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 07:13 AM
The company is not and has not been in any financial difficulty in years. They could well afford our proposals before tax reform, now even more so.

They were NOT motivated to pay us appropriately before tax reform, and they will not be after tax reform.

I agree with the other gentleman, this corporate windfall will not benefit us. They will fight and delay until they finally see a compelling reason to settle. Not before.

They were awash in cash before, even more so now.

Your argument that we want a profitable company across the table is a good one, but mostly irrelevant because a low margin employer was never in the cards during the negotiations anyway.

As to whether or not this tax plan will make any difference in our negotiations, I believe it will not change the actual timeline and as for rates of pay, they were always going to be determined by comparison to our peers, and not by whether or not JB has a 15% operating margin or a 25% operating margin.

Frankly, the company could have a 50% operating margin and they would still delay this CBA until Trump's third term absent a compelling reason to settle.

Yup-- Attrition/Staffing/Attraction. Attraction is already bottoming out with the better contracts out there. B6 is a last resort for those outside of Boston.

Softpayman
12-29-2017, 08:21 AM
That is the American corporate culture. Greed.

But you're not greedy right? Newsflash, we are all selfish and greedy by nature.

Xtreme87
12-29-2017, 08:37 AM
But you're not greedy right? Newsflash, we are all selfish and greedy by nature.

No man, there is greed and then there is greed. This is a whole different level of it. I understand that everyone is inherently greedy, however some people actually have a little bit of a soul and a heart. That doesnít exist here. Hence why american CEO to average worker ratio is the highest in the world, no other country even comes close. People are not people anymore, they are numbers on a piece of paper. There is no humanity, just accounting.

My argument is more for the people that have no union representation, that constantly work hard to get ahead, only to get thrown back down. However it applies to us lower year guys who have already paid our dues, only to restart at $50 per flight hour.

CaptCoolHand
12-29-2017, 08:40 AM
Says they guy probably married to a teacher. Ignorant? No. MBA? Yes.

https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.html

Donít care about teachers....

This is airline pilot forums not poor teacher forums.

Donít care
Donít care donít care double donít care.

Choppersnplanes
12-31-2017, 08:36 AM
Says they guy probably married to a teacher. Ignorant? No. MBA? Yes.

https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.html

;) Yes. Wife, Mother, Father, 2 Brothers & Grandparents all educators. Sorry little touchy subject.

say again
12-31-2017, 11:07 AM
[QUOTE=Xtreme87;2491263That is the American corporate culture. Greed. They will choke on every last penny before giving it to us.[/QUOTE]

This. Sad, very sad. Even sadder is that it's all too true.

coolyokeluke
12-31-2017, 03:44 PM
Says they guy probably married to a teacher. Ignorant? No. MBA? Yes.

https://www1.salary.com/Teacher-Salary.htmlYou think you know about education because you have an MBA? Oh the hubris.

Your blind faith in the free market fixing all of education's clashes with the realities. Kids who come from impoverished bad situations aren't going to thrive just because you privatized their school system. Schools can't mask a failing socio/economic situation.

One of the reasons that Finland's schools are amongst the best in the world is that childhood poverty is much lower there. Their kids live in safe environments. They also have zero private schools - the wealthy can't wall off their kids. So they in kind support a strong public school system where everyone has the opportunity to succeed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 03:56 PM
You think you know about education because you have an MBA? Oh the hubris.

Your blind faith in the free market fixing all of education's clashes with the realities. Kids who come from impoverished bad situations aren't going to thrive just because you privatized their school system. Schools can't mask a failing socio/economic situation.

One of the reasons that Finland's schools are amongst the best in the world is that childhood poverty is much lower there. Their kids live in safe environments. They also have zero private schools - the wealthy can't wall off their kids. So they in kind support a strong public school system where everyone has the opportunity to succeed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Where do your kids go to school?
Arenít the parents primarily responsible or is the government and society at large?

aldonite7667
12-31-2017, 04:09 PM
You think you know about education because you have an MBA? Oh the hubris.

Your blind faith in the free market fixing all of education's clashes with the realities. Kids who come from impoverished bad situations aren't going to thrive just because you privatized their school system. Schools can't mask a failing socio/economic situation.

One of the reasons that Finland's schools are amongst the best in the world is that childhood poverty is much lower there. Their kids live in safe environments. They also have zero private schools - the wealthy can't wall off their kids. So they in kind support a strong public school system where everyone has the opportunity to succeed.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The population of Finland is 5.5 million people. Really a poor comparison unless you can figure out how to scale it 60 times to a country with a population of 330 million.

Also, Please check out the link of a list of private schools in Finland so the rich can wall of their kids.

https://www.expat-finland.com/living_in_finland/international_schools.html#internat

coolyokeluke
12-31-2017, 04:20 PM
Where do your kids go to school?
Arenít the parents primarily responsible or is the government and society at large?Texas. In my opinion it's primarily the parents responsibility, but society at large succeeds or suffers by the results.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

coolyokeluke
12-31-2017, 04:37 PM
The population of Finland is 5.5 million people. Really a poor comparison unless you can figure out how to scale it 60 times to a country with a population of 330 million.

Also, Please check out the link of a list of private schools in Finland so the rich can wall of their kids.

https://www.expat-finland.com/living_in_finland/international_schools.html#internatAlright I am partially incorrect regarding private schools there. Good catch. However there's restrictions: Only a small number of independent schools exist in Finland, and even they are all publicly financed. None is allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either.

I've heard the scale argument and I haven't been given specifics of why it couldn't work (outside many kids coming from terrible backgrounds here). I'm not sure I buy the scale argument. I think it's a red herring.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 04:59 PM
Alright I am partially incorrect regarding private schools there. Good catch. However there's restrictions: Only a small number of independent schools exist in Finland, and even they are all publicly financed. None is allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either.

I've heard the scale argument and I haven't been given specifics of why it couldn't work (outside many kids coming from terrible backgrounds here). I'm not sure I buy the scale argument. I think it's a red herring.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

You dont see the merits of a scale argument with that much disparity?
Publicly financed schools here have received billions- the districts with one-parent families continue to show little improvement- whats the next step? Dont those specific communities have an obligation to get their 5hit together?
Where are my property tax dollars going?

coolyokeluke
12-31-2017, 06:17 PM
You dont see the merits of a scale argument with that much disparity?
Publicly financed schools here have received billions- the districts with one-parent families continue to show little improvement- whats the next step? Dont those specific communities have an obligation to get their 5hit together?
Where are my property tax dollars going?I think that spending per student is a more relevant discussion that the size of a country. And on that front, the US actually spends a high amount per student compared with the OECD average. So the question is why aren't we getting better results? I think that's where you have to examine the differences between education successes and troubles. Private schools here with good results typically have children from families that emphasize the importance of education. So I don't think it's an equitable comparison. I cited poverty, you cited single parent families - the common link is that if you are dealing with disadvantaged kids you are already in the hole from the standpoint of education. Maybe we could look at things that have worked in other countries, like more recess or later start times for teenagers.

In any case, I wish the JetBlue pilots luck. You've been undercompensated for way too long. It's too bad that the NLRB seems to be complicit with airline management, never releasing anybody.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

WhiteHammer
12-31-2017, 09:09 PM
I have several teachers in the family, every one of them fantastic, really cares about their students and does the best they are able to do. Spending less certainly won't help.

The real problem is that you are giving them moldy tattered cloth and expecting them to paint you the Mona Lisa. The general exception is affluent suburbs with professional parents who value education and can support their kids appropriately.

Outside of the affluent suburbs you have too high a proportion of kids without good nutrition, without good role models and good support from a stable home life and parents who value education.

I've seen it up close and personal as my family works in a mixed district. The kids with good parents and good support reliably do much better than the rest. The opposite is also almost always true. It's a failure of a large segment of our society. It's much harder to make a masterpiece out of moldy torn cloth, times millions of students.

Private school is populated primarily by students with parents that by their basic foundational nature value education and are far more likely to provide a stable home and sufficient support.

Maybe, just maybe, those parents that have the right traits to be good people and successful in this country, wait for it... heard it hear first... passed those genes and traits on to their successful kids.

Genetics man, it's a real thing. Not just physical traits that everyone accepts, but also personality and behavior.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 04:30 AM
Maybe, just maybe, those parents that have the right traits to be good people and successful in this country, wait for it... heard it hear first... passed those genes and traits on to their successful kids.

Genetics man, it's a real thing. Not just physical traits that everyone accepts, but also personality and behavior.

There it is, you finally figured out why the US has much poorer education outcomes, we have so many more dumb people!

After reading many of your previous posts, I'll give your comment the appropriate level of consideration...

dontsurf
01-01-2018, 11:31 AM
Maybe, just maybe, those parents that have the right traits to be good people and successful in this country, wait for it... heard it hear first... passed those genes and traits on to their successful kids.

Genetics man, it's a real thing. Not just physical traits that everyone accepts, but also personality and behavior.

maybe there's more to your screen name than i originally thought

hilltopflyer
01-02-2018, 02:56 AM
It's sad reading the w2 thread on the major section and see a 2 year fo making more than our 10 year cpts....

capt707
01-02-2018, 05:44 AM
It's sad reading the w2 thread on the major section and see a 2 year fo making more than our 10 year cpts....

Yup! But our guys only think about short-term gain and think RSA/VDAs and selling back PTO is the best thing on earth! :rolleyes:

BeatNavy
01-02-2018, 06:21 AM
It's sad reading the w2 thread on the major section and see a 2 year fo making more than our 10 year cpts....

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/110196-2017-w2-earnings.html

Southerner...I’m gonna call you out again brother. I want you to tell me you’ve read that thread, you’ve read the union emails, and you still think it’s ok to not wear a lanyard. You should post your info in there and see how it stacks up. You sometimes seem like a level headed guy who argues for the sake of making sure the other side’s voice is heard so this isn’t an echo chamber like bluepilots, and I know how juicy you instructors become down there. But if you see 2-3 year legacy FOs who are making more than our CAs, especially after PS/retirement, and think wearing a lanyard doesn’t matter, that our culture is good enough to make up for that, you are insane.

You realize the company that says they care about you (second value) underpays you by 30-40%? You realize they bought back $500mil in stock in the last 2 years and are buying back $750m in the next 2? You realize that’s $1.25billion that neither adds value to the company, hasn’t appreciated the share price, doesn’t invest in the company’s fleet/infrastructure/people but merely is used to increase C suite bonuses? You realize that other “good” companies that actually care about their employees took the Trump tax windfall and gave it, or at least a portion of it, back to employees? What did JB do? Announce buybacks! We didn’t even get a raise in line with inflation yesterday...every other airline did. So we just lost another 3% of pay yesterday. Other airlines are giving raises outside of section 6 negotiations. You realize our $500mil cost savings program just means slashing budgets, running leaner, and continuing to do more with less ont the backs of labor? Management has had AMPLE opportunity to negotiate in good faith and give us MARKET RATE pay. Not leading, not unsustainable, not breaking Joel’s piggy bank rates...market rate.

Do you realize JetBlue management spends MILLIONS of dollars on union busting and anti-labor efforts? The company they pay to keep labor costs down actually takes whatever measurable and quantifiable metrics they can and advises JetBlue what they can get away with labor wise. That’s what they get paid millions to do. Guess what the biggest metric is? That silly lanyard you refuse to wear, as well as the social media campaign # of likes and shares, and rally/picket attendance.

I grew up not liking labor/unions. And I think ALPA has had significant issues in the last couple decades and isn’t perfect, or even particularly good in some cases. But it’s what we have and it’s the ONLY group that has our best interests in mind. The company doesn’t and you can’t say they do...not when they refuse to accept market rate and single handedly pushed us into a labor dispute. I was juicy for a while here. I really want jetblue to be a good place to work. I want the culture that you think exists here to actually exist. I want to not wear a lanyard, get along with management, potentially even be in management one day, and be a part of the best airline to work for. But dam, we are in a full blown labor dispute, the management greed is sickening, and we STILL have guys who refuse to wear a lanyard and do the one thing the union asks. A free, easy, and effective tool to help us get a contract. And even if lanyards aren’t effective (which is false), what is the downside to wearing it? Not offending management, the same guys who refuse to pay you what your peers make? Honestly I’m curious as to how you justify your decision. Unbelievable.

BeatNavy
01-02-2018, 06:23 AM
Oh I forgot to add...don’t spend your $50 lift award all in one place.

Bluedriver
01-02-2018, 06:59 AM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/110196-2017-w2-earnings.html

Southerner...Iím gonna call you out again brother. I want you to tell me youíve read that thread, youíve read the union emails, and you still think itís ok to not wear a lanyard. You should post your info in there and see how it stacks up. You sometimes seem like a level headed guy who argues for the sake of making sure the other sideís voice is heard so this isnít an echo chamber like bluepilots, and I know how juicy you instructors become down there. But if you see 2-3 year legacy FOs who are making more than our CAs, especially after PS/retirement, and think wearing a lanyard doesnít matter, that our culture is good enough to make up for that, you are insane.

You realize the company that says they care about you (second value) underpays you by 30-40%? You realize they bought back $500mil in stock in the last 2 years and are buying back $750m in the next 2? You realize thatís $1.25billion that neither adds value to the company, hasnít appreciated the share price, doesnít invest in the companyís fleet/infrastructure/people but merely is used to increase C suite bonuses? You realize that other ďgoodĒ companies that actually care about their employees took the Trump tax windfall and gave it, or at least a portion of it, back to employees? What did JB do? Announce buybacks! We didnít even get a raise in line with inflation yesterday...every other airline did. So we just lost another 3% of pay yesterday. Other airlines are giving raises outside of section 6 negotiations. You realize our $500mil cost savings program just means slashing budgets, running leaner, and continuing to do more with less ont the backs of labor? Management has had AMPLE opportunity to negotiate in good faith and give us MARKET RATE pay. Not leading, not unsustainable, not breaking Joelís piggy bank rates...market rate.

Do you realize JetBlue management spends MILLIONS of dollars on union busting and anti-labor efforts? The company they pay to keep labor costs down actually takes whatever measurable and quantifiable metrics they can and advises JetBlue what they can get away with labor wise. Thatís what they get paid millions to do. Guess what the biggest metric is? That silly lanyard you refuse to wear, as well as the social media campaign # of likes and shares, and rally/picket attendance.

I grew up not liking labor/unions. And I think ALPA has had significant issues in the last couple decades and isnít perfect, or even particularly good in some cases. But itís what we have and itís the ONLY group that has our best interests in mind. The company doesnít and you canít say they do...not when they refuse to accept market rate and single handedly pushed us into a labor dispute. I was juicy for a while here. I really want jetblue to be a good place to work. I want the culture that you think exists here to actually exist. I want to not wear a lanyard, get along with management, potentially even be in management one day, and be a part of the best airline to work for. But dam, we are in a full blown labor dispute, the management greed is sickening, and we STILL have guys who refuse to wear a lanyard and do the one thing the union asks. A free, easy, and effective tool to help us get a contract. And even if lanyards arenít effective (which is false), what is the downside to wearing it? Not offending management, the same guys who refuse to pay you what your peers make? Honestly Iím curious as to how you justify your decision. Unbelievable.

Great post Navy. I have my doubts he will give you a quality answer.

Combatcraig
01-02-2018, 07:34 AM
Awesome post. Sadly 100% true! I drank the blue juice in training as well but unfortunately what culture really is: brain washing to accept subpar pay. Our business model is entirely built on cheap labor. Completely greedy on the leaderships part to not share in our successes yet pass it all along to those at the top!

atrdriver
01-02-2018, 09:13 AM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/110196-2017-w2-earnings.html

Southerner...Iím gonna call you out again brother. I want you to tell me youíve read that thread, youíve read the union emails, and you still think itís ok to not wear a lanyard. You should post your info in there and see how it stacks up. You sometimes seem like a level headed guy who argues for the sake of making sure the other sideís voice is heard so this isnít an echo chamber like bluepilots, and I know how juicy you instructors become down there. But if you see 2-3 year legacy FOs who are making more than our CAs, especially after PS/retirement, and think wearing a lanyard doesnít matter, that our culture is good enough to make up for that, you are insane.

You realize the company that says they care about you (second value) underpays you by 30-40%? You realize they bought back $500mil in stock in the last 2 years and are buying back $750m in the next 2? You realize thatís $1.25billion that neither adds value to the company, hasnít appreciated the share price, doesnít invest in the companyís fleet/infrastructure/people but merely is used to increase C suite bonuses? You realize that other ďgoodĒ companies that actually care about their employees took the Trump tax windfall and gave it, or at least a portion of it, back to employees? What did JB do? Announce buybacks! We didnít even get a raise in line with inflation yesterday...every other airline did. So we just lost another 3% of pay yesterday. Other airlines are giving raises outside of section 6 negotiations. You realize our $500mil cost savings program just means slashing budgets, running leaner, and continuing to do more with less ont the backs of labor? Management has had AMPLE opportunity to negotiate in good faith and give us MARKET RATE pay. Not leading, not unsustainable, not breaking Joelís piggy bank rates...market rate.

Do you realize JetBlue management spends MILLIONS of dollars on union busting and anti-labor efforts? The company they pay to keep labor costs down actually takes whatever measurable and quantifiable metrics they can and advises JetBlue what they can get away with labor wise. Thatís what they get paid millions to do. Guess what the biggest metric is? That silly lanyard you refuse to wear, as well as the social media campaign # of likes and shares, and rally/picket attendance.

I grew up not liking labor/unions. And I think ALPA has had significant issues in the last couple decades and isnít perfect, or even particularly good in some cases. But itís what we have and itís the ONLY group that has our best interests in mind. The company doesnít and you canít say they do...not when they refuse to accept market rate and single handedly pushed us into a labor dispute. I was juicy for a while here. I really want jetblue to be a good place to work. I want the culture that you think exists here to actually exist. I want to not wear a lanyard, get along with management, potentially even be in management one day, and be a part of the best airline to work for. But dam, we are in a full blown labor dispute, the management greed is sickening, and we STILL have guys who refuse to wear a lanyard and do the one thing the union asks. A free, easy, and effective tool to help us get a contract. And even if lanyards arenít effective (which is false), what is the downside to wearing it? Not offending management, the same guys who refuse to pay you what your peers make? Honestly Iím curious as to how you justify your decision. Unbelievable.

Spot on.

For all his posts saying he supports our bargaining efforts, Southerner hasn't responded once when I've asked him why he doesn't support his fellow pilots by wearing the lanyard as our MEC has asked us. I expect radio silence here too.

AMC190
01-02-2018, 09:22 AM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/110196-2017-w2-earnings.html

Southerner...Iím gonna call you out again brother. I want you to tell me youíve read that thread, youíve read the union emails, and you still think itís ok to not wear a lanyard. You should post your info in there and see how it stacks up. You sometimes seem like a level headed guy who argues for the sake of making sure the other sideís voice is heard so this isnít an echo chamber like bluepilots, and I know how juicy you instructors become down there. But if you see 2-3 year legacy FOs who are making more than our CAs, especially after PS/retirement, and think wearing a lanyard doesnít matter, that our culture is good enough to make up for that, you are insane.

You realize the company that says they care about you (second value) underpays you by 30-40%? You realize they bought back $500mil in stock in the last 2 years and are buying back $750m in the next 2? You realize thatís $1.25billion that neither adds value to the company, hasnít appreciated the share price, doesnít invest in the companyís fleet/infrastructure/people but merely is used to increase C suite bonuses? You realize that other ďgoodĒ companies that actually care about their employees took the Trump tax windfall and gave it, or at least a portion of it, back to employees? What did JB do? Announce buybacks! We didnít even get a raise in line with inflation yesterday...every other airline did. So we just lost another 3% of pay yesterday. Other airlines are giving raises outside of section 6 negotiations. You realize our $500mil cost savings program just means slashing budgets, running leaner, and continuing to do more with less ont the backs of labor? Management has had AMPLE opportunity to negotiate in good faith and give us MARKET RATE pay. Not leading, not unsustainable, not breaking Joelís piggy bank rates...market rate.

Do you realize JetBlue management spends MILLIONS of dollars on union busting and anti-labor efforts? The company they pay to keep labor costs down actually takes whatever measurable and quantifiable metrics they can and advises JetBlue what they can get away with labor wise. Thatís what they get paid millions to do. Guess what the biggest metric is? That silly lanyard you refuse to wear, as well as the social media campaign # of likes and shares, and rally/picket attendance.

I grew up not liking labor/unions. And I think ALPA has had significant issues in the last couple decades and isnít perfect, or even particularly good in some cases. But itís what we have and itís the ONLY group that has our best interests in mind. The company doesnít and you canít say they do...not when they refuse to accept market rate and single handedly pushed us into a labor dispute. I was juicy for a while here. I really want jetblue to be a good place to work. I want the culture that you think exists here to actually exist. I want to not wear a lanyard, get along with management, potentially even be in management one day, and be a part of the best airline to work for. But dam, we are in a full blown labor dispute, the management greed is sickening, and we STILL have guys who refuse to wear a lanyard and do the one thing the union asks. A free, easy, and effective tool to help us get a contract. And even if lanyards arenít effective (which is false), what is the downside to wearing it? Not offending management, the same guys who refuse to pay you what your peers make? Honestly Iím curious as to how you justify your decision. Unbelievable.

Well said !!!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Southerner
01-02-2018, 10:53 AM
Spot on.



For all his posts saying he supports our bargaining efforts, Southerner hasn't responded once when I've asked him why he doesn't support his fellow pilots by wearing the lanyard as our MEC has asked us. I expect radio silence here too.



That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

atrdriver
01-02-2018, 10:59 AM
That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, you sure don't.

But it means no one can take you seriously when in your posts you claim to support your fellow pilots and our negotiating efforts. (And not supporting our negotiations puts your pro-company posts in context.)

slimothy
01-02-2018, 11:16 AM
That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who hurt you?

BunkerF16
01-02-2018, 11:54 AM
That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a legitimate question Southerner. You can want the company to be successful, be happy working here and STILL support the pilot group and our cause.

Your stance makes you look like you're choosing sides unfortunately.

This is the same reason I stopped asking people about the lanyards. There's nothing I can say to anyone that's going to change their mind about them. I actually had a reasonable discussion with a non-lanyard wearing CA about a month ago. He said a lot of things I talked about made sense and that he hadn't thought about that angle before and thanked me for the discussion.

I brought out an extra lanyard and asked if he was ready to support the pilot group and he had a nervous laugh and said, "Well no, not going to do that."

The bottom line is, even though someone "says" they support the pilots and our cause, actions speak louder than words.

Bozo the pilot
01-02-2018, 12:14 PM
That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No you don't but good luck with anyone taking your posts seriously when you are obviously myopic when it comes to jetblue.
Youve just lost all credibility which I suspect you already know and therefore dont care.
Enjoy another year way behind our peers.

CaptCoolHand
01-02-2018, 03:58 PM
That's because I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Huh... Considering your point of view I think you do.

Or is that not part of being able to self evaluate better than average?

Southerner
01-02-2018, 04:45 PM
Huh... Considering your point of view I think you do.



Or is that not part of being able to self evaluate better than average?



You are entitled to your opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hilltopflyer
01-02-2018, 05:36 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For how much you claim to be on both sides (trying to show the other side). That was a legit post.

Bozo the pilot
01-02-2018, 05:39 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In fairness to you South it's tough to defend jetblue these days. I don't envy the non members and company apologists who have to answer for their false optimism.
Is it fair to say that you expected more from the company by now?
Even I did and I usually only expect Jack5hit.

BeatNavy
01-02-2018, 10:25 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgjII4CRi4

‘Tis the labor dispute season to whip out the good ol union busting video. For those who don’t know, Ford & Harrison LLP is the anti-labor law firm JetBlue pays to bust unions, get counsel on how to keep labor costs down and keep labor in line and try to prevent them from organizing. Our labor and values Vice President came from this scumbag firm.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/83924-ford-harrison-where-they.html

Unity. SOP. Safety. Contract above all.

embraerjetpilot
01-03-2018, 02:47 AM
Yup^ The $750 Million share buy back is proof that they have no intention of paying us a penny more, a second early. They could literally be printing their own money and they wouldnít share it with us. That is the American corporate culture. Greed. They will choke on every last penny before giving it to us.



Well said...

Bluedriver
01-03-2018, 06:40 AM
I'm starting to really like this thread!

Bozo the pilot
01-03-2018, 11:06 AM
I'm starting to really like this thread!

Because it's rooted in truth and not false hope.

Bluedriver
01-03-2018, 01:52 PM
Because it's rooted in truth and not false hope.

Yep. And hopefully you guys have shoved Southerner so deep into his hole he never shows his lanyard-less face again.

Bozo the pilot
01-03-2018, 02:01 PM
Yep. And hopefully you guys have shoved Southerner so deep into his hole he never shows his lanyard-less face again.

Well his experience with Jetblue is different but heís a good guy .

Southerner
01-03-2018, 03:22 PM
Yep. And hopefully you guys have shoved Southerner so deep into his hole he never shows his lanyard-less face again.



Look. You have your shtick. We get it. You're miserable. Not all of us are miserable. There are a bunch of points of view. Yours is no more valid than mine. That why it's called an opinion. I have every right to be here, just as much as you. Don't take my lack of interest in engaging with your stupidity as a win.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

atrdriver
01-03-2018, 03:47 PM
Well his experience with Jetblue is different but heís a good guy .

They always say that about serial killers too. :p:D (No, I'm not equating being unsupportive of your fellow pilots and murder if any snowflakes out there got that impression.)

I'm curious why his experience with JB is different.....is he on a super secret contract where he gets paid even close to market rate and gets treated with professional respect unlike the rest of us? Even so, why wouldn't he want us to be paid similarly to our peers? It's beyond belief.

Southerner
01-03-2018, 03:57 PM
They always say that about serial killers too. :p:D (No, I'm not equating being unsupportive of your fellow pilots and murder if any snowflakes out there got that impression.)



I'm curious why his experience with JB is different.....is he on a super secret contract where he gets paid even close to market rate and gets treated with professional respect unlike the rest of us? Even so, why wouldn't he want us to be paid similarly to our peers? It's beyond belief.



I have NEVER said that I don't want to be paid appropriately. Stop making stuff up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CaptCoolHand
01-03-2018, 05:12 PM
I have NEVER said that I don't want to be paid appropriately. Stop making stuff up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope. Just your actions and comments.

Southerner
01-03-2018, 05:38 PM
Nope. Just your actions and comments.



You mean joining ALPA immediately, paying dues, voting in the elections, encouraging non members to join, answering multiple surveys, and attending meetings? (You know, the stuff that matters)

slimothy
01-03-2018, 05:50 PM
You mean joining ALPA immediately, paying dues, voting in the elections, encouraging non members to join, answering multiple surveys, and attending meetings? (You know, the stuff that matters)

Pretty sure the union thinks lanyards matter. Iím quite certain I read that somewhere.

Southerner
01-03-2018, 05:59 PM
Pretty sure the union thinks lanyards matter. Iím quite certain I read that somewhere.



That's fine. They are entitled to their opinion.

Man, I could've saved a ton of money by just getting a lanyard and not joining ALPA since that's what REALLY matters. What was I thinking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

atrdriver
01-03-2018, 06:08 PM
That's fine. They are entitled to their opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lanyard wearing is a metric used by the company to gauge how many pilots support their negotiating committee.

It's also a basis upon which the pilots can judge who among them do not support their negotiating committee. That's how all this works. It's so easy to just throw one on that it really indicates a deeper issue with those who elect not to wear it.

hilltopflyer
01-03-2018, 06:14 PM
That's fine. They are entitled to their opinion.

Man, I could've saved a ton of money by just getting a lanyard and not joining ALPA since that's what REALLY matters. What was I thinking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you said why you are so against it? I really don't know? Just interesting that you are against it.

Southerner
01-03-2018, 06:14 PM
Lanyard wearing is a metric used by the company to gauge how many pilots support their negotiating committee.



It's also a basis upon which the pilots can judge who among them do not support their negotiating committee. That's how all this works. It's so easy to just throw one on that it really indicates a deeper issue with those who elect not to wear it.



Well it doesn't mean that for me. I don't really care if people assume that about me when they don't see the lanyard. It's none of their business. My convictions and my choices are my own. And I'm not going to change due to peer pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Southerner
01-03-2018, 06:29 PM
Have you said why you are so against it? I really don't know? Just interesting that you are against it.



I'm not really that against it. But at this point I would merely be doing it out of peer pressure and that is just not going to happen. Peer pressure is a terrible reason to do most anything in life.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

busdriver12
01-03-2018, 06:37 PM
Why are some people afraid to wear the lanyard, if you all don't mind me asking? Are there some sort of repercussions that people feel their job is threatened in some way?

Of course management is looking at who wears union supportive lanyards during negotiations. It's an easy way to gauge how many people are intent on getting a contract. Most of the time it's a painless and effective way to let others know what side you're on, and it should be a no-brainer. But it sounds like some people are scared to do it, and it makes me wonder if they feel threatened.

BeatNavy
01-03-2018, 06:57 PM
I'm not really that against it. But at this point I would merely be doing it out of peer pressure and that is just not going to happen. Peer pressure is a terrible reason to do most anything in life.


You wouldnít be doing it out of peer pressure. Youíd be doing it out of support for our late stage negotiations for your/our contract. Btw, convictions can change. You may have had (real or perceived) a good reason not to wear one before. But there are zero good reasons not to wear one now. Stubbornness, resisting perceived peer pressure, the (false) belief that they donít matter, and the optic to your instructor/management buddies thinking you switched teams from juicers to unionoids...thatís what I believe your reasons are. Hopefully you will reevaluate what the best course of action is for you, your family, your fellow pilots, and ultimately the company and our culture going forward. Nothing like drawn out labor disputes to permanently damage culture that you have to live with until retirement. If you think we deserve market rate pay in line with our peers, and if you support our negotiations and pilot group, youíd wear a lanyard. Anyone who doesnít is satisfied with being at the bottom of the barrel, which is sad.

Southerner
01-03-2018, 07:08 PM
You wouldnít be doing it out of peer pressure. Youíd be doing it out of support for our late stage negotiations for your/our contract. Btw, convictions can change. You may have had (real or perceived) a good reason not to wear one before. But there are zero good reasons not to wear one now. Stubbornness, resisting perceived peer pressure, the (false) belief that they donít matter, and the optic to your instructor/management buddies thinking you switched teams from juicers to unionoids...thatís what I believe your reasons are. Hopefully you will reevaluate what the best course of action is for you, your family, your fellow pilots, and ultimately the company and our culture going forward. Nothing like drawn out labor disputes to permanently damage culture that you have to live with until retirement. If you think we deserve market rate pay in line with our peers, and if you support our negotiations and pilot group, youíd wear a lanyard. Anyone who doesnít is satisfied with being at the bottom of the barrel, which is sad.



You are also entitled to your opinion. It's just not gonna happen. You believe it means one thing, and I do not believe the same. Agree to disagree, and I'm done discussing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

atrdriver
01-03-2018, 08:25 PM
Hopefully anyone considering applying here is following this thread.

JetBlue: where you aren't only up against management to get the standard pay you deserve, but up against some of your own fellow pilots. SMDH.

Very enlightening. Fortunately Southerner is in a small minority, although some days it doesn't feel like it.

Bluedriver
01-03-2018, 09:25 PM
You are also entitled to your opinion. It's just not gonna happen. You believe it means one thing, and I do not believe the same. Agree to disagree, and I'm done discussing it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Juicebox ladder climber doesn't want to hurt his chances for VP of the T5 Potato Farm.

cf105
01-03-2018, 09:38 PM
Hopefully anyone considering applying here is following this thread.

JetBlue: where you aren't only up against management to get the standard pay you deserve, but up against some of your own fellow pilots. SMDH.

Very enlightening. Fortunately Southerner is in a small minority, although some days it doesn't feel like it.

Same thing at every airline, even American.

slimothy
01-03-2018, 09:40 PM
Same thing at every airline, even American.

Except American pilots are compensated properly.

cf105
01-03-2018, 09:41 PM
Except American pilots are compensated properly.

But still complain, still fight each other over contract fights, still divided, still argue bitterly, same.

slimothy
01-03-2018, 09:44 PM
But still complain, still fight each other over contract fights, still divided, still argue bitterly, same.

But CASH [email protected] CHECKS

cf105
01-03-2018, 09:49 PM
But CASH [email protected] CHECKS

Yep, no doubt. Still, just had one in the jumpseat *****ing about work rules and half the pilot group for 2.5 hours. When it comes to pilot group division and crying like little kids, same everywhere.

CaptCoolHand
01-04-2018, 05:17 AM
You mean joining ALPA immediately, paying dues, voting in the elections, encouraging non members to join, answering multiple surveys, and attending meetings? (You know, the stuff that matters)

You must have never played team sports... You couldn't have been military.

you know? (Everything matters)

You won't even put on the uniform, but you want people to believe you're part of the team? It's not peer pressure. It's a simple request from your union to show unity during our labor dispute with our company. We are trying to put pressure on the company from every legal angle to improve our working conditions and QOL. Yet... you refuse.

On top of that, you allow pride to stop you from doing the right thing? Because someone "told" you too? What are you 5? That right there is stellar reasoning and self evaluation.

You're just out for you and you don't care about this group.
That's my opinion.

It's also my opinion that you're a lost cause. I'm not going to waste any more energy on you.

Tailwinds buddy.

hilltopflyer
01-04-2018, 06:49 AM
You must have never played team sports... You couldn't have been military.

you know? (Everything matters)

You won't even put on the uniform, but you want people to believe you're part of the team? It's not peer pressure. It's a simple request from your union to show unity during our labor dispute with our company. We are trying to put pressure on the company from every legal angle to improve our working conditions and QOL. Yet... you refuse.

On top of that, you allow pride to stop you from doing the right thing? Because someone "told" you too? What are you 5? That right there is stellar reasoning and self evaluation.

You're just out for you and you don't care about this group.
That's my opinion.

It's also my opinion that you're a lost cause. I'm not going to waste any more energy on you.

Tailwinds buddy.

This was a great post. I don't like unions or ALPA but they are needed in this profession. I will gladly wear my lanyard because I want our leadership to see that I support my mec and negotiations committee 100%

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 06:54 AM
Yep, no doubt. Still, just had one in the jumpseat *****ing about work rules and half the pilot group for 2.5 hours. When it comes to pilot group division and crying like little kids, same everywhere.

No clue why this is so hard for you to understand:

I would rather whine and complain while having an extra 3-4k in my pocket every month!

Got it?

slimothy
01-04-2018, 07:01 AM
No clue why this is so hard for you to understand:

I would rather whine and complain while having an extra 3-4k in my pocket every month!

Got it?

Because coming to a JB b!tch board and b!tching about JB Pilots b!tching on a JB b!tch board is b!tchin.

todd1200
01-04-2018, 07:28 AM
I would rather whine and complain...



Kinda sums up the internet

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 07:44 AM
Say what you want. I may or may not complain, but I think we can ALL agree we would rather have an extra 3-4k in our pocket every month.

Bozo the pilot
01-04-2018, 08:31 AM
Yep, no doubt. Still, just had one in the jumpseat *****ing about work rules and half the pilot group for 2.5 hours. When it comes to pilot group division and crying like little kids, same everywhere.

Ah-the "it sucks everywhere defense"
So lets take whatever B6 gives us eh? :rolleyes:

Bozo the pilot
01-04-2018, 08:35 AM
Say what you want. I may or may not complain, but I think we can ALL agree we would rather have an extra 3-4k in our pocket every month.

Absolutely- These idiots that constantly defend B6 are a big part of the problem.
Work will always suck, but working for jetblew sucks at 30% less pay/ crap benefits and Punch-n-Judy ops.
Or do you defenders like being short-**cked?

Gearswinger
01-04-2018, 02:20 PM
Say what you want. I may or may not complain, but I think we can ALL agree we would rather have an extra 3-4k in our pocket every month.

Those on 1st year pay would like to get 3-4k every month.

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 02:44 PM
Those on 1st year pay would like to get 3-4k every month.

YEP, our 1st year pay is atrocious also! Good point.