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Mundergun
11-10-2017, 10:28 AM
As a commissioned Army NG rotary Pilot is it possible/difficult to transition to Air National Guard fixed wing? I currently fly fixed wing civilian as a cfi already. Any help is appreciated thanks


BeatNavy
11-10-2017, 11:48 AM
As a commissioned Army NG rotary Pilot is it possible/difficult to transition to Air National Guard fixed wing? I currently fly fixed wing civilian as a cfi already. Any help is appreciated thanks

Possible but not easy. You have to go through all of AF pilot training (UPT) and canít have more than 5 years commissioned or be 30 by the time you start. You need exceptions to policy to get around that, which arenít impossible to get, but units donít want to do it when they have a ton of applicants who donít need waivers. First step is to start rushing units and sell yourself. If you get lucky that can be quick. Or it can take years. Though rated already, you are rushing/applying for a UPT slot and competing against younger civilians, which puts you at a disadvantage. Admin wise, most apps require standard stuff...but you have to take the AFOQT/TBAS (kind of like the AFAST/SIFT) and at some point after you get hired get an FC1 physical. They wonít take your army flight physical. Depending on how you do it you may even have to go through MEPS. I did because I had a break in service.

Bogidope.com and flyingsquadron.com have info on upcoming boards and a whole lot of other good info. Especially as a rated guy, you can rush most units outside of formal meet and greets and/or other times besides when they have an upcoming board. I rushed many units out of the blue and then applied when their boards came up. And you can get hired outside of the formal boards, as well.

BigIron
11-12-2017, 06:08 AM
i know of several Marine Corps RW pilots that are now flying KC-135, definitely possible.


BeatNavy
11-12-2017, 07:51 AM
i know of several Marine Corps RW pilots that are now flying KC-135, definitely possible.

The USMC/USN (and USAF) helo guys all went through fixed wing training initially, which the AF counts for the sake of transferring wings through an ARB when they come into the ANG, so they don’t have to do UPT again. Maybe T1s, but i know one who went from his helo tours straight to Altus. The army only does straight helos initially in their UPT equivalent. Even army fixed wing, a short course in Cessna 182s and King airs (which just transitioned to some other small single engine in lieu of the 182), and which is taught by contractors, is not recognized by the USAF as legitimate fixed wing instruction or good enough to count for UPT, and full UPT is still required for army guys going to ANG/USAFR, and the associated age/commissioned time in service limits for UPT apply, which is the big limfac for army guys (FWQ did not have those limitations, but that is gone now). I know of a few high time fixed wing army guys who flew a few thousand hours in king airs, Dash 7s, C27s, and UC35s and still had to go through UPT or FWQ (before FWQ was ended) when they switched.

This is why the Army guys (especially commissioned) have such a big disadvantage. It’s 1.5-2 years before the unit gets them back from training. So by the time the ADSC from army flight school is up, most people are 29/30 or older, and unless they were warrants, they are senior captains/majors. Fighter units especially, but even heavy units, don’t seem to want those types, especially since waivers/ETPs are required for UPT. I’m not saying it’s impossible. After a long time rushing it worked for out for me, and I know of a few other army guys (some flyers, some ground pounders) who made it into UPT. I haven’t met one other former army pilot who was commissioned the whole time in the army and who went to UPT. The others i know were warrants first and then LTs when the ANG/USAFR hired them, or ground pounders who could get out at year 4 or 5. Being a senior captain RW only guy is not an ideal position when rushing guard units. But it isn’t impossible, and the shortage is helping.

ArmyFW
11-12-2017, 06:38 PM
Man it feels like we get a lot of flak from other services as army guys. But I'm still pretty new and in no way trying to start trouble.

BeatNavy
11-12-2017, 09:47 PM
Man it feels like we get a lot of flak from other services as army guys. But I'm still pretty new and in no way trying to start trouble.

Army aviation is the armpit of all military aviation. Thatís what I was told by one of my teachers in college (AH64 and C12 guy). After 8 years in the army and being around fighter squadrons for the last 8 years, I have an appreciation for that statement, because itís mostly true. Especially as commissioned guys, we donít fly a lot and are never IPs. And we donít have a recognized legitimate fixed wing training program. I kind of see their pointóthe year spent in Air Force pilot training covers a whole lot more than the army fixed wing course. Not sure what this new initial entry fixed wing course entails, but Iíd be surprised if it was as comprehensive as SUPT. Plenty of my AF friends give mad props to the work we did killing stuff in apaches/kiowas, but the AF as an institution doesnít really care for much of what we did in the army, unless it involves going to fly helos in the ANG. Army fixed wing guys donít get much credit when going over to the AF. Not cool, but a fact. Maybe itíll change with the new army fixed wing course, or maybe they will create a short course for army dudes to help free training resources in the Air Force.

ArmyFW
11-12-2017, 09:57 PM
I guess I see where you're coming from. Where does that leave the warrant officers lol.

BeatNavy
11-12-2017, 10:05 PM
I guess I see where you're coming from. Where does that leave the warrant officers lol.

I know two former WOs (one became an LT before switching to the ANG) flying F16s and one flying F15s. I know another WO turned LT hired to fly C17s but couldnít pass the AF color vision test so heís back in the army guard flying. Iím sure there are more out there.

Gundriver64
11-13-2017, 05:54 AM
Army aviation is the armpit of all military aviation. Thatís what I was told by one of my teachers in college (AH64 and C12 guy). After 8 years in the army and being around fighter squadrons for the last 8 years, I have an appreciation for that statement, because itís mostly true. Especially as commissioned guys, we donít fly a lot and are never IPs. And we donít have a recognized legitimate fixed wing training program. I kind of see their pointóthe year spent in Air Force pilot training covers a whole lot more than the army fixed wing course. Not sure what this new initial entry fixed wing course entails, but Iíd be surprised if it was as comprehensive as SUPT. Plenty of my AF friends give mad props to the work we did killing stuff in apaches/kiowas, but the AF as an institution doesnít really care for much of what we did in the army, unless it involves going to fly helos in the ANG. Army fixed wing guys donít get much credit when going over to the AF. Not cool, but a fact. Maybe itíll change with the new army fixed wing course, or maybe they will create a short course for army dudes to help free training resources in the Air Force.

For me, the issue(s) with Army aviation aren't so much the machines and/or training, but rather the Army in general. The degree of BS political correctness has gotten out of hand. Priorities through self-serving upper tiered leadership are whacked. Example: worrying more about flu shot numbers versus concern that it takes someone all day to zero their M4/M16 rifle. The leadership has become insufferable. Standards have devolved into block checking. Anything to make the CR2 data look good is the focus. This isn't the same Army I joined in the late 80s.

DustoffVT
11-13-2017, 06:20 AM
Army aviation is the armpit of all military aviation. That’s what I was told by one of my teachers in college (AH64 and C12 guy). After 8 years in the army and being around fighter squadrons for the last 8 years, I have an appreciation for that statement, because it’s mostly true. Especially as commissioned guys, we don’t fly a lot and are never IPs. And we don’t have a recognized legitimate fixed wing training program. I kind of see their point—the year spent in Air Force pilot training covers a whole lot more than the army fixed wing course. Not sure what this new initial entry fixed wing course entails, but I’d be surprised if it was as comprehensive as SUPT. Plenty of my AF friends give mad props to the work we did killing stuff in apaches/kiowas, but the AF as an institution doesn’t really care for much of what we did in the army, unless it involves going to fly helos in the ANG. Army fixed wing guys don’t get much credit when going over to the AF. Not cool, but a fact. Maybe it’ll change with the new army fixed wing course, or maybe they will create a short course for army dudes to help free training resources in the Air Force.

All very true. Someone once described the difference between UPS airlines and FedEx to me as UPS being a trucking company that flew planes and vice versa, and the same comparison holds for Army/AF. The Army is a massive ground game with helicopters (Army FW is so miniscule it hardly counts). Witness the flightsuit assimilation police.

I went to Rucker with 3000 hours and a regional/night cargo background, and was stunned at the lack of "aviation" concerns - airspace, ATC, instrument flying. Just a different focus. Here at CBP we see tons of Army guys fail our checkride due to inability to fly an approach or hold.

Back to the OP, I know three RLO's who made the transition to ANG, one vipers and two heavy cargo. All went almost immediately after getting back from IERW, within a year. Probably had started their packets while still there.

I would think that the best transition from ARNG to ANG right now would be through active duty.

BeatNavy
11-13-2017, 06:30 AM
All very true. Someone once described the difference between UPS airlines and FedEx to me as UPS being a trucking company that flew planes and vice versa, and the same comparison holds for Army/AF. The Army is a massive ground game with helicopters (Army FW is so miniscule it hardly counts). Witness the flightsuit assimilation police.

I went to Rucker with 3000 hours and a regional/night cargo background, and was stunned at the lack of "aviation" concerns - airspace, ATC, instrument flying. Just a different focus. Here at CBP we see tons of Army guys fail our checkride due to inability to fly an approach or hold.

Back to the OP, I know three RLO's who made the transition to ANG, one vipers and two heavy cargo. All went almost immediately after getting back from IERW, within a year. Probably had started their packets while still there.

I would think that the best transition from ARNG to ANG right now would be through active duty.

Agree with all. Fwiw I was active duty and had an ANG fighter unit wanting to hire me, but the army wouldnít let me out of my flight school commitment. By the time that was up, no unit wanted to hire me. I have heard ARNG will not hold you to the commitment if you are going into the air guard, so anyone in that position may have an easier out. Also fwiw, I had a very influential AF 3 Star try to get me an interservice transfer to active duty Air Force (with an associated UPT slot) and his buddy, the AETC commander, among others CCíd on the email, said there was no path on active duty to get the required waivers/ETPs for a guy seeking an interservice transfer and to stick with trying the ANG since they had more leeway. Perhaps times have changed in the last couple years. And perhaps with this shortage the Air Force should relook a FWQ or short UPT course like they had until 2012 or so.

ArmyFW
11-13-2017, 10:36 AM
So in the long run how do think this will deal with leaving the army as a 6 year fixed wing Warrant. Do the airlines not hire us as as fast as the other services or does that not matter? If I can get with a major I would probably only do my initial 6 year commitment.

rickair7777
11-13-2017, 10:42 AM
So in the long run how do think this will deal with leaving the army as a 6 year fixed wing Warrant. Do the airlines not hire us as as fast as the other services or does that not matter? If I can get with a major I would probably only do my initial 6 year commitment.

Airlines don't care about UPT. Generally you'll have a leg up on civilians with similar times. Navy/AF probably have an advantage due to network, but once you get the call, it's yours to lose.

So the real question is how much FW TT and TPIC will you have?

Also on the off chance you don't have one yet you'll need a BS degree, that would be a big hurdle.

ArmyFW
11-13-2017, 11:37 AM
I do have a BS degree, it honestly seems like most of the warrants I went to flight school had one. And In my class of 6 that went through the initial entry fixed wing course all 6 had a degree.

And I'm assuming TT should be at least 2000 (about 300 hours a year is a very safe bet I think we'll get more than that.) And maybe half of that should be TPIC time as a safe estimate as well. I'm hoping that in 6 years from now that will allow me to transition straight to a major from the army.

MIkeFavinger
11-13-2017, 12:39 PM
I do have a BS degree, it honestly seems like most of the warrants I went to flight school had one. And In my class of 6 that went through the initial entry fixed wing course all 6 had a degree.

And I'm assuming TT should be at least 2000 (about 300 hours a year is a very safe bet I think we'll get more than that.) And maybe half of that should be TPIC time as a safe estimate as well. I'm hoping that in 6 years from now that will allow me to transition straight to a major from the army.

You will have a leg up, for sure. At the minimum, youíll at least qualify to have your app scored.

You get on with the new guaranteed FW track? I heard about it but havenít met anyone who actually went through it. Congrats! Youíre very, very, fortunate. Besides building time, working on making PC, and getting 1000 TPIC, one of your main efforts should be networking and meeting people who can give you recs for the Majors.

ArmyFW
11-13-2017, 12:55 PM
You will have a leg up, for sure. At the minimum, youíll at least qualify to have your app scored.

You get on with the new guaranteed FW track? I heard about it but havenít met anyone who actually went through it. Congrats! Youíre very, very, fortunate. Besides building time, working on making PC, and getting 1000 TPIC, one of your main efforts should be networking and meeting people who can give you recs for the Majors.


Yea it's an awesome program. We go through Upset Recovery Training where we do aerobatics and spins and whatnot. The trainer is a pretty powerful turbine powered single engine called the Grob 120TP. And compared to what I've heard about flight safety we get A LOT more specialized training because it isn't a transition anymore. I hate that fixed wing in the army gets such a bad rap but I know it used to be a kind of retirement home. At least that's what I've been told, (again I'm a new guy). We get a lot more hours than the guys just going through the transition get. We only fly helicopters for the very beginning of flight training before moving to fixed wing. The training is a lot of instruments, and we get to explore the full envelope of flight during UPRT taught by APS. And then after getting our wings we have even more fixed wing training that isn't at ft Rucker before we are even flying with our unit. I think the army is trying to change its whole dynamic in regards to the fixed wing community.

Ohlsan
11-13-2017, 01:55 PM
Yea it's an awesome program. We go through Upset Recovery Training where we do aerobatics and spins and whatnot. The trainer is a pretty powerful turbine powered single engine called the Grob 120TP. And compared to what I've heard about flight safety we get A LOT more specialized training because it isn't a transition anymore. I hate that fixed wing in the army gets such a bad rap but I know it used to be a kind of retirement home. At least that's what I've been told, (again I'm a new guy). We get a lot more hours than the guys just going through the transition get. We only fly helicopters for the very beginning of flight training before moving to fixed wing. The training is a lot of instruments, and we get to explore the full envelope of flight during UPRT taught by APS. And then after getting our wings we have even more fixed wing training that isn't at ft Rucker before we are even flying with our unit. I think the army is trying to change its whole dynamic in regards to the fixed wing community.

You will be set up for a major when you hit 6 years, by then you should be an IP, and possibly an SP. If you want some extra insurance get a masters degree. It is not nessesary, but you can do it for free and it will help the resume. I️ know of at least 7 National Guard FW guys that have been hired in the last year at the majors and Army Guard FW is a very small community. If by some chance a major doesn’t hire you, a regional will.

Mundergun
11-13-2017, 03:30 PM
Not sure how itíll all pan out but i should be transitioning from my fixed wing cfi job to envoy here in about 2 months. Hoping that the leg up from being a military will get me a call from one of the majors before the flow would occur. And at that point my adso for an additional 6 should be done and I expect Iíll probably get out at that point. You never know though life has its cureveballs haha

DustoffVT
11-13-2017, 06:42 PM
Not sure how itíll all pan out but i should be transitioning from my fixed wing cfi job to envoy here in about 2 months. Hoping that the leg up from being a military will get me a call from one of the majors before the flow would occur. And at that point my adso for an additional 6 should be done and I expect Iíll probably get out at that point. You never know though life has its cureveballs haha

Even if you do get out to concentrate on getting on the right seniority list, once you're there consider getting back in. Tricare reserve select is cheap and good. Having the "I think i'll stick around the house for a couple weeks and just fly a Lakota" is a nice card to have in your back pocket, as well whatever military retirements end up being.

INVERTED
11-14-2017, 06:54 AM
I'm an Army Warrant with both a Bachelor and Master degrees. I had 2 type ratings (both jet) along with a regional and corporate background when I tried to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air Guard at my same base. I was preparing for my board when I got hit in the face with a memo.

The big change was back in 2011 when the National Guard Bureau (NGB) sent down a memo changing how inter service transfers were being handled. Basically, it changed the game requiring all transfers to meet the same age requirements as a new UPT applicant. Previously, if you were a rated military aviator, age wasn't a factor. Additionally, they were eliminating the fixed wing qualification course for transfers. The Air Guard recruiter called the COL who wrote the memo and had him on speaker phone. He was, to put it nicely, a "jerk" over the phone. It was obvious that he was NOT a fan of the Army.

So, that was that for me. I eventually transferred to the Reserves to fly C-12s. Certainly not KC-135s, but definitely a better quality of life if ya gotta stay flying in the Army.

Mundergun
11-15-2017, 07:29 AM
It seems like it might not be worth the hassle I guess. 27 year old army 1LT. I think going to UPT wouldnít be horrible though since Iím already a civilian fixed wing guy. Plus Iíll be starting at a WO regional here in a few months so if I left for UPT my seniority/flow would advance while at UPT.

BeatNavy
11-15-2017, 08:32 AM
It seems like it might not be worth the hassle I guess. 27 year old army 1LT. I think going to UPT wouldnít be horrible though since Iím already a civilian fixed wing guy. Plus Iíll be starting at a WO regional here in a few months so if I left for UPT my seniority/flow would advance while at UPT.

Depends what you consider worth it. Years of rushing, thousands of dollars, cumulatively took over a month away from my family rushing units while having 11 days off at a regional. Worth it to me to fly fast jets. Doable, just not easy. But if it were easy everyone would do it. I know some who got lucky and didnít spend that much time rushing units. And it is a huge hassle...after getting hired itís still MEPS (depending how you do it), FC1, and a crap ton of other admin/paperwork stuff, time, and dealing with ANG/AFRES recruiters who donít seem to be on any sort of timeline, all before redoing initial pilot training and all the fun that entails. Havenít talked to anyone who made the transition, put up with all that, and then said it wasnít worth it, though.

pony172
11-15-2017, 04:02 PM
To the OP, you already have a regional job to get FW hours that can take you to the majors. I understand wanting to go the fighter route, it is once in a lifetime. But hear this out. Go fly RPA's in the Guard. We have transferred 2 Army rotorheads so far in our unit. No UPT required, we don't deploy and it is all the title 10 that you can stomach. We have a ton of airline guys and it is a great network to use to get hired. It is still the AF and can be a pain in the ass at times, but not a bad way to finish 20.

rickair7777
11-15-2017, 04:55 PM
To the OP, you already have a regional job to get FW hours that can take you to the majors. I understand wanting to go the fighter route, it is once in a lifetime. But hear this out. Go fly RPA's in the Guard. We have transferred 2 Army rotorheads so far in our unit. No UPT required, we don't deploy and it is all the title 10 that you can stomach. We have a ton of airline guys and it is a great network to use to get hired. It is still the AF and can be a pain in the ass at times, but not a bad way to finish 20.

"I am your father... "

ipdanno
11-15-2017, 06:47 PM
"I am your father... "

That was good! 👿👹💀

pony172
11-16-2017, 04:27 PM
It is the darkside!

Mundergun
11-16-2017, 05:24 PM
"I am your father... "

Thatís actually pretty interesting Is there some sort of an interactive map or etc showing locations of units and etc? It does seem like possibly a good way to finish up the 20.

pony172
11-17-2017, 04:53 AM
I'd google it. It is a long list now, a lot of former fighter units. I would look at Guard over Reserve units because of the state structure. However, like real estate location is everything.

Voski
11-17-2017, 04:59 AM
To the OP, you already have a regional job to get FW hours that can take you to the majors. I understand wanting to go the fighter route, it is once in a lifetime. But hear this out. Go fly RPA's in the Guard. We have transferred 2 Army rotorheads so far in our unit. No UPT required, we don't deploy and it is all the title 10 that you can stomach. We have a ton of airline guys and it is a great network to use to get hired. It is still the AF and can be a pain in the ass at times, but not a bad way to finish 20.

How long is the training? Iíd be concerned about being out of the cockpit for over a year in building valuable 121 time for a major.

pony172
11-17-2017, 08:54 AM
How long is the training? Iíd be concerned about being out of the cockpit for over a year in building valuable 121 time for a major.

Training 6-8 mos. All title 10 time, which is good for GI Bill and retirement. I'd say look at the big long term picture. You might miss a year out of cockpit toward your major job. But, you might get hired with the connections you make. You have a non-deploying gig til you hit 20. You can take all the mil leave you want/need early in you career. Some nice furlough insurance as well. Plus you are still serving.

Voski
11-17-2017, 09:51 AM
You know, you make a strong cased for continued service as an RPA guy. I'm going to have to take a hard look at reserve units. I'm going to be in the ORD area, but I suppose if any of them are commutable by driving or by flying, that sounds like a really good gig.

Mundergun
11-17-2017, 12:38 PM
You know, you make a strong cased for continued service as an RPA guy. I'm going to have to take a hard look at reserve units. I'm going to be in the ORD area, but I suppose if any of them are commutable by driving or by flying, that sounds like a really good gig.

Agreed Iím thinking the same thing