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View Full Version : UA verse AA


MarineHarrier
11-17-2017, 04:14 PM
Retiring in March with CJO from both. Live between IAD and DCA so domicile not a factor. Might move back to Chicago so once again, domicile not a big factor. American has all the retirements but heard United has the better work rules and they work less days per month.

An old SQDN mate flies for UA and he works 13-14 days a month as a lineholder about 3 years of seniority, minimal weekends. I saw his schedule and it looked pretty good. Is American about the same? Are the travel benefits for the family about the same? American has the bigger network for sure but if you can't use it then what is the point?

Blessed to have this "problem"


Otterbox
11-17-2017, 04:35 PM
Retiring in March with CJO from both. Live between IAD and DCA so domicile not a factor. Might move back to Chicago so once again, domicile not a big factor. American has all the retirements but heard United has the better work rules and they work less days per month.

An old SQDN mate flies for UA and he works 13-14 days a month as a lineholder about 3 years of seniority, minimal weekends. I saw his schedule and it looked pretty good. Is American about the same? Are the travel benefits for the family about the same? American has the bigger network for sure but if you can't use it then what is the point?

Blessed to have this "problem"

United- greater ease of wide body International flying out of IAD with them vs having to commute to PHL or CLT for it.

TransWorld
11-17-2017, 04:41 PM
Here is the mandatory retirements on AA, courtesy of Sliceback. He does a great job of quick, accurate, clear analysis for AA. (G4 CA is Group 4 pay rates, the wide body Captain slots.). Have not seen (or maybe have forgotten) a similar analysis for UA.

Down the road, need to consider wide body flying out of which airports; when you get to that point, would you have to commute? How much of a QOL impact is that if you are flying across either pond one round trip a week or so?

Remember who is in the lead for QOL today is only good to the next contract. Over a career, it will be a horse race. The lead will change several times. Pilots will have a stronger hand than in the past when it comes time to open the contracts. Welcome for others to weigh in on current specifics.

Sliceback:
Just added up retirements for 10, 15, and 20 yrs. All data - nearest 100.

10 yrs - 8,200
15 yrs - 11, 100
20 yrs - 12,800

Latest seniority list shows 14,500 on property. So estimated seniority number for someone hired today -

10 yrs - 6,300
15 yrs - 3,400
20 yrs - 1,700

Roughly 18 yrs to junior G4 CA.


JetBlast77
11-17-2017, 08:30 PM
Here is the analysis for United. You’d be looking at about the same time frame to the highest paying seat (764/777/787 CA). You could fly any of those aircraft (with the exception of the 764, it seems to come and go) out of Dulles and avoid the commute. The right seat on those aircraft has gone more junior in the past, but it’s constantly changing. As of now you could hold the 777 or 787 right seat in IAD at around 3 years seniority. It all depends on where you want to end up living long term.

Retirements:

10 years - 5500

15 years - 9000

20 years - 10600 out of 12700 on property

Sliceback
11-18-2017, 04:34 AM
UA. Better w/b flying options where you want to live.
Your UA seniority is slightly lower but UA has more w/b’s so the effectively value of the seniority amongst w/b pilots at the two airlines is similar.

sherpster
11-18-2017, 04:56 AM
Some other points to consider. I am in a similair boat, UAL/AA, and United hasnt hired hardly anyone since 2 May. 2 small classes scheduled in Dec. Nothing listed for 2018 yet. AA is going to hire 925 new hires next year. You will have better idea come March but I am personally a little weary of anything United says right now. Other random stuff-

1. STD at AA, none at United
2. more vacation days at AA
3. if you ever commute, the commute rules seem a thousand times better at AA
4. Lots of East coast bases at AA. You might get stuck commuting to SFO or LAX for a year with United
5. The big plus for United as a retiring military officer is the ability to drop trips and take mini unpaid leave of absences. I dont think you can do that at American.
6. It is my understanding AA has no airport standby while United has lots of it.

Zenofzin
11-18-2017, 05:39 AM
UAL is a great company to work for, very pilot friendly flight ops management, treat employees very well. We are already in early openers for our next contract. I believe our work rules and profit sharing are generally a bit better then American, pay is similar at all 3 majors. We have very large retirements from 2018 on so we will be hiring in large numbers in the future. Lots of great guys to fly with here. You could get SFO as a new hire, but doubt you would be there long. EWR goes jr and has a great variety of flying on the 737. ORD is also a jr base and IAD is smaller but relatively jr for a new hire. Denver and IAH are pretty stagnant at the moment. Best of luck!!

viper548
11-18-2017, 07:16 AM
At AA you should be able to get PHl on the 190 or LGA on the 737 or A320. DCA is pretty junior and you should be able to transfer there within the first year. ORD is a bit more senior and would probably take a few years to get. Personally I'd go with United if you plan to stay in DC and really want to fly widebodies. If you don't really care, or think you'll end up in Chicago I'd go with whoever gives you the earliest class date and don't look back.

MarineHarrier
11-18-2017, 07:34 AM
I am retiring in March, terminal leave in February. Pentagon staffer. Out of the cockpit the last 2 years. Originally thought I would have to go the regional route but I obviously didn't need to.

All good advice. I will reevaluate in January. I really wouldn't want to travel out to the West coast to work. Why is commuting on United worse than commuting on American? I don't understand the airport standby comment either. Is that "ready reserve" sitting around? Why wouldn't American have the same thing?

Back to one of the initial questions. Are travel benefits basically the same? I have a daughter attending school in Texas and a son attending school in New York.

V/R

Sliceback
11-18-2017, 09:27 AM
Travel benefits, as far as I know, tend to be similar. As far as I know no one turns down A and goes to be B because of the difference in travel benefits.

Traveling to see your kids? As a pilot you get to ride the Jumpseat of your airline on all flights. Some restrictions to ride the Jumpseat of other airlines. In general it’s always easier to non rev on your own metal.

JetBlast77
11-18-2017, 10:37 AM
I’m curious about Americans “commuting rules”? At UA, you need two flights before show time, open seats don’t matter. If you don’t get on the first one, you call the crew desk, ask if they want to positive space you on the second one. If they say no and you don’t make it, you’re off the hook. Trip drops and you go home, no questions asked. What is the policy at AA?

Also how many vacation days at AA? I don’t believe they have profit sharing at all? Maybe that changed not sure. Not trying to say one is better than the other, I’m genuinely interested in how the contracts compare. 5 hour min calander day? Or is it by duty period?

viper548
11-18-2017, 11:56 AM
Commuter policy at AA doesn't require any backup flights. AA jumpseat is on a reservation system. If you are the primary for the jumpseat it is yours (unless a fed shows up).
AA has 21 days vacation for new hires. I think UA tops out at a higher amount though. UA has the better min duty day, at AA it's 5:10 per duty period, so we have some 3 day trips that pay 10:20.
American doesn't have on airport reserve. Reserve callout for short call is "report promptly." I don't know where the upper limit of that is but 3 hours is common. AA has more retirements happening sooner and has hired less than United over the last few years. You will probably be better off seniority wise at AA. UA has the better contract but some of that will be offset by better seniority at AA. Contracts come and go, I wouldn't make a career decision based on who has the better contract right now.
AA does have profit sharing but it's much lower than United. I think it was about 3% of W2 earnings.

Flyingphi
11-18-2017, 12:12 PM
United's 2 flights for commutes needs to change. Both my last airlines, expressjet and JetBlue, only required 1 flight. Anyone know what delta requires?

WhiskeyDelta
11-18-2017, 12:33 PM
United's 2 flights for commutes needs to change. Both my last airlines, expressjet and JetBlue, only required 1 flight. Anyone know what delta requires?



Delta requires two flights to be covered by the unable to commute policy.

Mover
11-18-2017, 12:41 PM
Some other points to consider. I am in a similair boat, UAL/AA, and United hasnt hired hardly anyone since 2 May. 2 small classes scheduled in Dec. Nothing listed for 2018 yet. AA is going to hire 925 new hires next year. You will have better idea come March but I am personally a little weary of anything United says right now. Other random stuff-

1. STD at AA, none at United
.

As in Short Term Disability? Sure if you're ok with $50/week.

Our short and Long term disability compensation are atrocious at AA.

sherpster
11-18-2017, 01:15 PM
$50 a week?? that is bad, sorry. Is LTD that bad also? Is medical insurance premiums high also?

I know that 2 flight thing would add hours to my inbound commute to ewr or Iad. The AA commute clause of 1 flight will make things much easier for me. Plus reserving it in advance would be nice.

We really highjacked that Marines thread., sorry.

TransWorld
11-18-2017, 02:45 PM
You are getting a pretty good variety of info. As you gather it is not clear cut. Other than bases and aircraft, most of the other differences could flip on the next contract. Both are winners, as you would expect. Need to drill down to secondary preferences and situations.

Three questions that may help input:

1. Is a possible move to ORD something you are seriously considering or just a more remote option out there, if you really had to move?

2. What age are you?

3. Do you think you would have a strong interest when the time comes to fly wide body or are you really thinking of staying domestic?

Be sure to thank CHAOS for us if you run into him in the Pentagon. Most of us think the world of him, regardless of our political affiliations. The US is lucky to have him as SecDef.

liveupthere
11-18-2017, 03:24 PM
So, you're saying you haven't flown anything in 2 years and you have an actual job offer from both UA and AA?

John Carr
11-18-2017, 08:47 PM
Go to A, you'll have a really really really really really great career.

Go to B, you'll have a really really really really great career.

Do you know when you'll figure out which one was greater? When your just shy of 65 years old walking off you last trip..............

Sliceback
11-19-2017, 04:35 AM
As in Short Term Disability? Sure if you're ok with $50/week.

Our short and Long term disability compensation are atrocious at AA.

Since UA’s LTD is similar to AA’s it must also be atrocious.

AA pays 60% of previous earnings capped at $8000.
UA pays 50% capped at $8000.

Advantage - AA

AA LTD cost - zero
UA LTD cost - small amount paid by pilot

Advantage - AA when you’re healthy (free). Maybe UA when you’re sick (no income tax because of the premiums??)

Both have income offsets.

APA contract experts, who actually are tasked with comparing contracts, said their preference for contracts, ignoring pay, was DL, AA, UA.

ANY Big 3 airline should be fine. Live in a base? That’s your #1 choice, by far. I’d keep pursuing #1 for at least a year if you got hired at ‘not #1’.

Sliceback
11-19-2017, 04:41 AM
$50 a week?? that is bad, sorry. Is LTD that bad also? Is medical insurance premiums high also?

I know that 2 flight thing would add hours to my inbound commute to ewr or Iad. The AA commute clause of 1 flight will make things much easier for me. Plus reserving it in advance would be nice.

We really highjacked that Marines thread., sorry.

IMO the thread wandering often helps. Guys can ponder the value of one flight vs two flight commuter requirement. 15 flights a day from you commuter city? Who cares. Four flights a day? It’s a huge benefit. You take the 1300 flight instead of the 0800 flight.

Living in base? You leave your house at 1500. Priceless value.
All nighter? Home mid morning, sleep to lunch. Wake up hungover and think ‘this is what the guys flying to Europe do every trip .” :-/

Varks
11-19-2017, 05:03 AM
At AA we can drop trips for no credit. If there is enough coverage on a day you can just drop it otherwise you can try to drop to another pilot. The company can’t stop you from dropping to other pilots. I have good luck dropping Two day trips. Trying to drop a three day red eye trip worth 11 hours or so is hard. Very few want to pick up a red eye. Many try to drop all trips then fly when they want. There are ways to make huge bucks (over $400K/yr. narrow body Captain) if you figure the system out.

I’m pretty junior and was able to trade a red eye over Thanksgiving. My trip over Christmas is green (droppable) right now. It seems like there are so many reserves on the holidays that we line holders can drop those trips. I’m sure it depends on base and equipment.

You have a great decision to make. Good luck.

Rsv4lyfe
11-19-2017, 06:56 AM
Anyone getting hired at UAL/AA/DAL/FDX today under the age of 40 is in for a stellar career. Contracts/benefits/seniority progression are all becoming very similar. If you can get on at the place that had a base where you live/want to live... then it's just gravy.

beech2jet
11-19-2017, 11:16 AM
APA contract experts, who actually are tasked with comparing contracts, said their preference for contracts, ignoring pay, was DL, AA, UA.

This surprises me, considering Delta doesn’t have Domestic crew meals or middle seat deadhead pay and American doesn’t have a minimum calendar day pay, meaning there are 3 day trips that pay 10 hours and 4 days that pay less than 20. Seems like you’d have to work quite a few more days to make the same money at AA. Does AA have Domestic crew meals (not that they’re anything to write home about). There must be other aspects of UAs contract that fall far behind the others. ALPA put something out at one point with overall contract values that I thought had DL/UA pretty much tied and AA right behind. But of course, that was total monetary value.

AC560
11-19-2017, 12:32 PM
This surprises me, considering Delta doesn’t have Domestic crew meals or middle seat deadhead pay

They do give you an extra breast for your suite and that counts for a lot.

Larry in TN
11-19-2017, 01:02 PM
Guys can ponder the value of one flight vs two flight commuter requirement.
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.

mainlineAF
11-19-2017, 01:11 PM
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.



You’re right, AA’s jumpseat policy is first come first serve. If someone books ahead of you they have the primary and you’re the alternate. But you find that out 8 days ahead of time as opposed to the UA system where a senior pilot can bump you up to 15 mins before departure.

I know which method I prefer.

ugleeual
11-19-2017, 03:29 PM
I am retiring in March, terminal leave in February. Pentagon staffer. Out of the cockpit the last 2 years. Originally thought I would have to go the regional route but I obviously didn't need to.

All good advice. I will reevaluate in January. I really wouldn't want to travel out to the West coast to work. Why is commuting on United worse than commuting on American? I don't understand the airport standby comment either. Is that "ready reserve" sitting around? Why wouldn't American have the same thing?

Back to one of the initial questions. Are travel benefits basically the same? I have a daughter attending school in Texas and a son attending school in New York.

V/R

I’d find out which one has the first new hire class you can attend and jump on that... if a toss up id take UAL for reasons listed above...

Don’t commute unless you don’t have a choice or for only a short period... your options and QoL will be mo beta.

Mover
11-19-2017, 04:16 PM
APA contract experts, who actually are tasked with comparing contracts, said their preference for contracts, ignoring pay, was DL, AA, UA.



"APA Contract Experts"

Hahaha.

Mover
11-19-2017, 04:17 PM
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.

Based on time. Not sure how that's a drawback.

Sliceback
11-19-2017, 04:29 PM
This surprises me, considering Delta doesn’t have Domestic crew meals or middle seat deadhead pay and American doesn’t have a minimum calendar day pay, meaning there are 3 day trips that pay 10 hours and 4 days that pay less than 20. Seems like you’d have to work quite a few more days to make the same money at AA. Does AA have Domestic crew meals (not that they’re anything to write home about). There must be other aspects of UAs contract that fall far behind the others. ALPA put something out at one point with overall contract values that I thought had DL/UA pretty much tied and AA right behind. But of course, that was total monetary value.

I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.

You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.

UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).

Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).

C11DCA
11-19-2017, 05:17 PM
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.

You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.

UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).

Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).

See the following contract comparison re: vacation days and hours

UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career.

Boeing Aviator
11-19-2017, 05:28 PM
Something to consider is total percentage of widebodies. I break widebodies into two categories, large widebody and total widebody. Since AA, DAL and UAL all have 767-300’s and all pay them considerably less then large widebodies, I break them into two separate catagories. 767-300’s and Large Widebody (767-400’s & A330 and bigger).

UAL Mainline Fleet

Narrowbody
570

767-300’s
35

Large Widebody
144

Total Widebody
179

Total Fleet
749

Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
19.2%

Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
23.9%

Pilot size 12,500


American Mainline Fleet

Narrowbody
815

767-300
31

Large Widebody
120

Total Widebody
151

Total Fleet
966

Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
12.4%

Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
15.6%

Pilot size 14,500

So UAL has 2,000 less pilots and more total widebodies and large widebodies. If UAL grows to AA’s size (not saying UAL will) you will benefit from more widebodies and sizable growth. More room for growth on the UAL side that plus more widebodies may yield better return vs slightly higher retirements on AA side.

Anyway something else to consider.

My source for fleet info. From UAL a union MEC fleet plan emailed out to pilots last Spring. For the AA fleet count the numbers listed on this website under airline profiles. The listing under airline profiles for United shows the 747-400’s (now parked) and only showed 4 777-300’s (currently have 14 and 4 more coming next year), also showed 6 less 787’s then UAL will have in early 18.

PRS Guitars
11-19-2017, 07:12 PM
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.

I’m not saying choose AA...

but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected.

But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked.

Grumble
11-19-2017, 11:51 PM
I’m not saying choose AA...

but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected.

But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked.

UAL, you don't even need seats on the airplane. Flight can be oversold with 100 nonrevs. As long as you had two flights available you're protected. They don't even need to be UAL airplanes.

sherpster
11-20-2017, 12:22 AM
UAL, you don't even need seats on the airplane. Flight can be oversold with 100 nonrevs. As long as you had two flights available you're protected. They don't even need to be UAL airplanes.

I have done the research from my local airport. As someone illustrated earlier, it makes a big difference for me. AA policy wins hands down

Sliceback
11-20-2017, 04:08 AM
See the following contract comparison re: vacation days and hours

UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career.

Has UA’s vacation day value changed? The early 2017 contract comparison showed UA’s day worth 3:15 and AA’s worth 3:40. It showed DL’s at 3:30 with the first 14 days switched to 3:45 eff. 4/1/19.

FedEx, SW, UPS, and Alaska have much better vacation sections.

Sliceback
11-20-2017, 04:13 AM
And for the OP’s POV we’re just discussing contract details. If IAD and ORD are his projected home bases UA is the clear winner.

Mover
11-20-2017, 04:27 AM
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.

You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.

UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).

Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).

AA's contract is the worst among majors. Your contract expert friend needs to do more homework.

sherpster
11-20-2017, 04:42 AM
AA's contract is the worst among majors. Your contract expert friend needs to do more homework.

Say why it is the worst.

Flyingphi
11-20-2017, 05:18 AM
UAL, you don't even need seats on the airplane. Flight can be oversold with 100 nonrevs. As long as you had two flights available you're protected. They don't even need to be UAL airplanes.

I work at united and would much more prefer a AA type policy for commuters.

Mover
11-20-2017, 05:21 AM
Say why it is the worst.

Recovery Obligation rules. Reassignment rules (lineholders are basically just airport reserves). Min calendar day (lack thereof)/duty rigs. Reserve days off aren't really days off. Premium pay is only 150% and the opportunities are few and far between. No holiday override pay. PBS Coverage days determined by the company. No hotel contract language. Reserve junior manning. Min days off (12 for reserve, 10 for lineholders). PBS line construction values. Profit sharing (nonexistent in the JCBA, a gift from the company and industry lagging). LTD. Short term disability. Second year (and every subsequent year) pay starts 1 year after you complete training, not after Date of Hire, which means you can finish a year with the company and still have 4 months to wait until hitting second year pay (~$15k difference for the average new hire).

The JCBA is a 6 year contract that the company basically said "you have to sign it to know what's in it" and the union happily agreed. There are so many hidden gems that are clearly in the company's favor, and what's in the pilot's favor is "Not yet implemented" or "having IT issues."

It's easier to find the few things where AA is better (commuter rules, training pay, being able to bid long call vs short call, etc.) than list every way our contract lags the rest of the industry.

Sliceback
11-20-2017, 06:13 AM
Recovery Obligation rules.
Reassignment rules (lineholders are basically just airport reserves). Min calendar day (lack thereof)/duty rigs. Reserve days off aren't really days off. Premium pay is only 150% and the opportunities are few and far between. No holiday override pay. PBS Coverage days determined by the company. No hotel contract language. Reserve junior manning. Min days off (12 for reserve, 10 for lineholders). PBS line construction values. Profit sharing (nonexistent in the JCBA, a gift from the company and industry lagging). LTD. Short term disability. Second year (and every subsequent year) pay starts 1 year after you complete training, not after Date of Hire, which means you can finish a year with the company and still have 4 months to wait until hitting second year pay (~$15k difference for the average new hire).


It's easier to find the few things where AA is better (commuter rules, training pay, being able to bid long call vs short call, etc.) than list every way our contract lags the rest of the industry.

We agree that things need to be improved. But some of the issues you mentioned aren’t as clear cut as you make them out to be.

Look at UA’s RO and tell me we’d accept it? Conversion to airport standby? I doubt it.

AA’s RO footprint is the longest (bad). Converts to 150% pay past the original footprint. UA’s and DL’s RO footprint is smaller but doesn’t convert to premium pay.

UA reserve assignment is FIFO. Does that remove all seniority when it comes to trip assignments? IDK. But if it does that’s worse.

UA has airport standby. That’s DOA at AA. How many a guys get tagged with it? IDK. But I’d guess the guy researching asked the UA guys.

What about involuntary reserve assignments at UA? Is that on your days off? Pays 125%. AA is voluntary only and pays 100% or 150% depending upon the pilot.

Those reserve issues touch roughly 25-30% of the pilots every single month.

Reserve days off appear to be the same at DL and UA. DL has a provision for more days off if line holders have lower ALVs.

DL has six Golden (“inviolable days”). Maybe they allow flying into the am of your first day off? IDK.

Does UA or DL offer holiday pay? IDK. Contract comparison didn’t mention it (or I missed it).

Do UA or DL PBS have coverage days? IDK. They’re using PBS bidding and I know some of them get slammed (few days off) at the end of December.

DL ALV cap is higher than AA’s on w/b’s (+1:30). UA’s is one hour less on all fleets (90:00 hrs). Everyone is flying more than we used to.

My guess is the guy knew the answers to the questions which is why he said he’d choose DL, then AA, then UA. This was before any improvements UA got this summer/fall.

Mover
11-20-2017, 07:32 AM
We agree that things need to be improved. But some of the issues you mentioned aren’t as clear cut as you make them out to be.

Look at UA’s RO and tell me we’d accept it? Conversion to airport standby? I doubt it.


We are airport standby with these 2-3 hour sit times. The company just doesn't call us that.


AA’s RO footprint is the longest (bad). Converts to 150% pay past the original footprint. UA’s and DL’s RO footprint is smaller but doesn’t convert to premium pay.


0159 HBT or 4 hrs after trip footprint, WHICHEVER IS LATER. Tell me that's not company language?


UA has airport standby. That’s DOA at AA. How many a guys get tagged with it? IDK. But I’d guess the guy researching asked the UA guys.


I agree and that's why I said our reserve rules LC/SC are better in that respect. But we do have guys calling for that on CnR



Reserve days off appear to be the same at DL and UA. DL has a provision for more days off if line holders have lower ALVs.
[/quote]

DL only does 16 days per month on reserve IIRC. We do 18.




Does UA or DL offer holiday pay? IDK. Contract comparison didn’t mention it (or I missed it).


AFAIK, yes.


Bottom line is we're on a 6 year JCBA where the top half of the pilot group (probably you, Slice), voted for pay and nothing else. The entire contract needs to be shredded and rewritten in 2019.

Hossharris
11-20-2017, 04:17 PM
No holiday pay at delta.

Skyward
11-20-2017, 09:39 PM
This Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for holiday pay at SW (even for reserve).

Softens the sting when you can't hold it off... :(

full of luv
11-21-2017, 04:50 AM
This Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for holiday pay at SW (even for reserve).

Softens the sting when you can't hold it off... :(

I Lobby for it every contract survey time but so far too many senior pilots who enjoy 2x pay if they volunteer to work it while junior folk have no option.
Now that there is a lot more junior folk entering our ranks should get more traction for future contract negotiations as then holidays would surely go more senior if they knew there was some extra bonus for bidding them instead of avoiding them and only picking up for 2x pay.

Ironically every non-union group at delta has holiday pay but ALPA has been successful in keeping it off property at Delta for the pilots.

crewdawg
11-21-2017, 08:32 AM
I briefly worked at AAL in 2014, and now I'm at DAL. My only comparison between the two would be as a commuter to a bottom feeder reserve line (at both). My pay and QOL increased dramatically, when I came to DAL. Commuting to reserve at AAL was absolutely terrible. When I did get assigned a trip it was a 3 day that paid just over 10 hours...at DAL that same trip pays 15+45 minimum. Sick if needed was nice.

Having said that, if I had lived in an AAL base, I would have had no problem staying there. No way I would leave to force myself into a commute. Guys can justify "how easy" their commute is all day long, but it's still a commute. At the end of the day, when their rushing off to hopefully catch their commute home, I'll stroll out to the car and be home before they land, or sometimes even before they takeoff. Living in base gives you a little "super seniority," in that you'll likely get a line quicker, get to a WB or Capt quicker, because you'll not have to worry about the commute. Sitting reserve from your house on WB reserve is about as good as it gets. Based on that alone, UAL seems to be the answer.

The following are answers for DAL.


Reserve days off appear to be the same at DL and UA. DL has a provision for more days off if line holders have lower ALVs.

Minimum of 12-14 days off, depending on Reserve Guarantee. +1 more day if staffing is good in your category for the month.


DL has six Golden (“inviolable days”). Maybe they allow flying into the am of your first day off? IDK.

Our golden days can be placed mostly where we want. Most guys put them at the end of each reserve block so they can't be worked into a day off. If on reserve you're automatically released at noon on your last day (before a golden day...or any hard no-fly day).


Does UA or DL offer holiday pay? IDK. Contract comparison didn’t mention it (or I missed it).

No.


Do UA or DL PBS have coverage days? IDK. They’re using PBS bidding and I know some of them get slammed (few days off) at the end of December.

Yes, and she's a cruel mistress. There are limits on how high up the list they go on coverage, depending on if it's a holiday or non-holiday month.

ImperialxRat
11-21-2017, 10:38 AM
Has UA’s vacation day value changed? The early 2017 contract comparison showed UA’s day worth 3:15 and AA’s worth 3:40. It showed DL’s at 3:30 with the first 14 days switched to 3:45 eff. 4/1/19.

FedEx, SW, UPS, and Alaska have much better vacation sections.

At Alaska each vacation day is worth 3:30 and we can trade day-for-day with open time or another pilot. Vacation days don't need to be kept together.

The drawback is that we are not paid for trips that touch vacation, and we have to pick back up to 75 hours.

Sliceback
11-22-2017, 08:10 AM
AK’s vacation is better.

AA’s RO is the worst (0159 end time).

None of the Big 3 airlines is worth commuting to over a local based airline. SW might be an exception. That’s a personal call. At AA after 25 yrs 75% are flying international. It goes even higher with more seniority and doesn’t include junior FO’s doing international.

G4 reserve, living in base, is a different world. Nothing like n/b reserve. Two different universes, especially if the bid status only has 3-4 day trips. Five day block? Your only real concern is the phone ringing on day 1-3. If they don’t get you then you’re probably off. But when they do call you you’re gone for 3-4 days.

Think any current contract is a permanent ‘turn them down’ decision? It was too many years ago that SW paid $216, DL $182, AA $166, UA $137, and US $125. Who’s the biggest winner today? Probably the young guy who went to US. And SW is the last choice.

Legacy FO’s today are making DL CA pay from 5+ years ago.

crewdawg
11-22-2017, 12:54 PM
At Alaska each vacation day is worth 3:30 and we can trade day-for-day with open time or another pilot. Vacation days don't need to be kept together.

I hope we never get the ability to fly over vacation or sell back vacation...because pilots will do just that.

aa73
11-23-2017, 06:56 PM
Well, after reading through all of this, I can also agree that the contractual differences don’t matter much in the long run - any job at the big 3 plus FDX/UPS are good careers. Contracts come and go, AA stands to gain a bunch of improvements with our next contract.

Bottom line, if our Marine wants to live in the DC area, I’d go UAL in a heartbeat. The IAD flying and hub is awesome... a huge variety of International (and domestic, if international gets old.) drive to IAD and fly a wide body your whole career. You cant do that at AA, you’d have to commute to PHL, CLT, NYC or MIA...all we have at DCA/IAD is the 737 and A320. The only advantage AA has in his situation is better end of career seniority.

Good luck, it’s an awesome choice to have!

Flyingphi
11-24-2017, 07:01 PM
Well, after reading through all of this, I can also agree that the contractual differences don’t matter much in the long run - any job at the big 3 plus FDX/UPS are good careers. Contracts come and go, AA stands to gain a bunch of improvements with our next contract.

Bottom line, if our Marine wants to live in the DC area, I’d go UAL in a heartbeat. The IAD flying and hub is awesome... a huge variety of International (and domestic, if international gets old.) drive to IAD and fly a wide body your whole career. You cant do that at AA, you’d have to commute to PHL, CLT, NYC or MIA...all we have at DCA/IAD is the 737 and A320. The only advantage AA has in his situation is better end of career seniority.

Good luck, it’s an awesome choice to have!

How senior is the clt base in general and how senior to hold wide body?

AFTrainerGuy
11-25-2017, 01:17 PM
How senior is the clt base in general and how senior to hold wide body?

I’m a March 2014 hire. I’m 72% at about 12800 in CLT

Most junior WB FO in CLT is around 10400

I’d say pretty senior overall (although new hires are in this base)

Who knows for WB... but a long long while I’m sure

EMBFlyer
11-26-2017, 06:29 AM
How senior is the clt base in general and how senior to hold wide body?

Wide body has typically always been very senior in CLT, as it has always been a very small base. The CLT 767 base is closing in March (it was down to 1 or 2 lines anyway and no international). The 330 has also always been very senior (again, small base). There are rumors of them concentrating more 767s in PHL and moving some 330s to CLT, which would grow the category. That remains to be seen, though.

MarineHarrier
11-27-2017, 12:53 PM
Been off grid for a few days. I appreciate all the input.

I am going to see how many classes UAL has scheduled in 2018 before making a decision. I was told 925 new pilots this year at American.

Luckily I do not have to make a decision until February.

liveupthere
11-27-2017, 12:58 PM
Been off grid for a few days. I appreciate all the input.

I am going to see how many classes UAL has scheduled in 2018 before making a decision. I was told 925 new pilots this year at American.

Luckily I do not have to make a decision until February.

How do you have an offer at UAL without any recent flying? Are you a furlough?

John Carr
11-27-2017, 01:59 PM
Been off grid for a few days. I appreciate all the input.

I am going to see how many classes UAL has scheduled in 2018 before making a decision. I was told 925 new pilots this year at American.

Luckily I do not have to make a decision until February.

If going by this year is a measuring stick, UAL can’t plan more than 2-3 months at a time.

And for Nov-Dec, that proved to be quite challenge for them.

But then again, a while back, AA(G) had a similar issue.

Otterbox
11-27-2017, 08:13 PM
Been off grid for a few days. I appreciate all the input.

I am going to see how many classes UAL has scheduled in 2018 before making a decision. I was told 925 new pilots this year at American.

Luckily I do not have to make a decision until February.

Take the first class date offered... and if it’s not UAL, switch when they can get you in class.

MarineHarrier
11-28-2017, 02:07 AM
How do you have an offer at UAL without any recent flying? Are you a furlough?

CJO from both. I have been doing some Part 91 corporate flying on the side the last 2 years. Logged 168 hours in a LRJET 60.

sherpster
11-28-2017, 03:11 AM
If going by this year is a measuring stick, UAL can’t plan more than 2-3 months at a time.

And for Nov-Dec, that proved to be quite challenge for them.

But then again, a while back, AA(G) had a similar issue.

Barring some grand announcement from United, this is why you should probably go to American.

crewdawg
11-28-2017, 08:14 AM
If WB flying is your goal, consider the following. You may see UALs numbers decline a little (probably a very little) as they look to expand their NB foot print.

UAL has 31% of their pilots on WB aircraft, AAL has 21%. DAL has 20%...but only 7% at the top pay rate since we don't band our 330/764 with the 777/350.

Best of luck!

*Numbers are 6-9 months old and based on active pilots.

John Carr
11-28-2017, 08:41 AM
Barring some grand announcement from United, this is why you should probably go to American.

Right :D

Although the one poster nailed it, take the first class, THEN make a decision.

If WB flying is your goal, consider the following. You may see UALs numbers decline a little (probably a very little) as they look to expand their NB foot print.

UAL has 31% of their pilots on WB aircraft, AAL has 21%. DAL has 20%...but only 7% at the top pay rate since we don't band our 330/764 with the 777/350.

Best of luck!

*Numbers are 6-9 months old and based on active pilots.

Awwwww mannnnn, why ya gotta open that can of UAL pay band worms?!?!?! :p Plenty going on in the UAL sub foru.

blizzue
11-28-2017, 10:10 AM
Hiring plans change. Whether its the 900+ at AA or the 400 at UAL. Focus on base, contract, QOL, seniority progression, etc.

Opting to drive to work and one day a WB job, would be my choice.

mainlineAF
11-28-2017, 11:44 AM
If WB flying is your goal, consider the following. You may see UALs numbers decline a little (probably a very little) as they look to expand their NB foot print.



UAL has 31% of their pilots on WB aircraft, AAL has 21%. DAL has 20%...but only 7% at the top pay rate since we don't band our 330/764 with the 777/350.



Best of luck!



*Numbers are 6-9 months old and based on active pilots.



Do these percentages at UA and AA include the lower paying 767s?

crewdawg
11-28-2017, 06:04 PM
Awwwww mannnnn, why ya gotta open that can of UAL pay band worms?!?!?! :p Plenty going on in the UAL sub foru.

LOL, well you can't bring it up to many in our forums because, "you can't give one part of the pilot group a bigger raise than another..." It's pretty much a show stopper for some, yet some of them will still complain we don't have enough pilots at the top pay rate.



Do these percentages at UA and AA include the lower paying 767s?

AAL doesn't have the 767-400 so it wasn't a factor. For UAL...The 764 makes up about 13-14% of their entire 75/76 fleet. We just used that percentage to guesstimate a number to use for the 767-400 fleet. It's a rough number, but probably within a percent or two. Other than that it only accounts for 764/330 and up.

Sliceback
11-29-2017, 04:52 AM
APC airline profiles has the exact fleet counts by aircraft type.

crewdawg
11-29-2017, 06:59 AM
APC airline profiles has the exact fleet counts by aircraft type.

That's where I got the data, I just couldn't remember the exact percentage at the time of the post (it's 13%). My "guesstimate" comment was in reference to how many of their 75/76 pilots (since they fly all the variants) would be included in my count of the 764 pilots, to find an apples-to-apples comparison. Not an exact science, but close enough for some rough numbers.

Intersting thing about the numbers. If DAL pay banded the way UAL/AAL did, we would have more WB captains than AAL and would be ~50 Captains shy of UAL. Obviously, we lose out on WB FOs.

Scottkirby
11-29-2017, 11:06 AM
Even I left American to go to United....

SK

horrido27
11-29-2017, 01:16 PM
Even I left American to go to United....

SK

ok..
seriously...
THAT is funny~

Motch

Boeing Aviator
11-29-2017, 02:56 PM
Here is the UAL vs DAL Widebody Fleet Comparision.

For UAL I used an ALPA Council 05 blastmail earlier in the year that showed the year end UAL Fleet count - includes 747’s parked and the 3 additional 787’s and 4 777-300’s UAL takes delivery in 2018. DAL’s info comes from the DAL airline profile fleet count on APC and includes 747’s parked.

This only compares 767-400’s and larger aircraft (true widebodies pay wise) - no 767-300’s.

UAL
144

DAL
81

Percentage of Widebody aircraft per total airline fleet

UAL
19.2%

DAL
8.7%

Sliceback
11-29-2017, 03:13 PM
AA’s 124 of 966?? 12.8%

Boeing Aviator
11-29-2017, 03:25 PM
AA’s 124 of 966?? 12.8%

That’s exactly what I calculate.

Sliceback
11-30-2017, 06:40 AM
UA vs AA - at the end of your career, if you’re sub #2000(?), and you have an offer from both, 300 @ AA = 450 @ UA, 1000 @ AA = 1500 @ UA.

Anyone have a super computer to figure this stuff out? First code line - ‘live in base’.

BeechPilot33
11-30-2017, 07:40 AM
A better comparison would be how long to right seat of a widebody in IAH at UA and at DFW at AA for those who want to live in the South.

IAD and PHL for East Coast

SFO and LAX or PHX for West coast


Left seat of WB at a large base like DFW or CLT probably aint happening unless you want to fly for 35 years.

Boeing Aviator
11-30-2017, 10:13 AM
While UAL has a larger Widebody fleet count vs AA & DAL. Something else to consider when one is evaluating all three legacies is the potiential for long term mainline fleet growth. The total mainline numbers below illustrate how far behind in narrow bodies and total mainline aircraft UAL is vs AA and DAL.

We’ve heard rumors from management for years at UAL that we could see 1000 mainline aircraft and 16,000 pilots. Obviously to date with the lack of hiring the past few years at UAL. Most specifically, the fact that UAL has actually hired a third to a half of their own hiring yearly projections. I am in no way predicting that UAL will grow to 1000 mainline aircraft and a pilot count of 16,000 in the medium to long term.

What does look somewhat plausible at some point in the long term. Due to UAL’s large hub structure and network, compared to the current mainline fleet size vs DAL & AA. There is the potiential for significant growth.

UAL mainline fleet - 749
(included 4 777-300’s and 3 787-900’s to be delivered in 18)

AA & DAL fleet count from APC

DAL - 931 (182 more then UAL)

AA - 966 (217 more then UAL)

In summary, my point is IF (big if) UAL grows from its current size to that of current AA or DAL mainline fleet size that’s a lot of potiential growth at UAL that has already occurred at AA & DAL. That could easily offset and surpass the larger retirement numbers at AA.

One final point. A pilot which chooses any of the three legacies, appears to be a great career path. A lot can change over a 20, 30 or 40 year career. Just look backwards to see how much this industry has changed. A lot of great airlines that existed 31 years ago when I was hired are no longer in existence. It’s definately a crap shoot. Once you pull the trigger youvreally can’t look back just move forward.

Like others have said, I can’t say enough about living in base. We are very fortunate for those of us based in EWR and living in base at UAL to have the very best flying in the system on the 757/767 & 777.

Sliceback
11-30-2017, 01:14 PM
[QUOTE=BeechPilot33

Left seat of WB at a large base like DFW or CLT probably aint happening unless you want to fly for 35 years.[/QUOTE]

15-18 yrs at AA. The retirements numbers are stupefying.

Sliceback
11-30-2017, 05:17 PM
Boeing Aviator - for UA to experience that fleet growth, via domestic growth, would require SW, AA, and DL to just sit back and let UA effectively take all 9-12% of the upcoming domestic growth. Or if the other Big 3 grew by roughly 5% domestically UA would grow by 14-17% domestically.

If anything I’d think it might be more likely that DL increases its large w/b percentage.

terminal
11-30-2017, 05:39 PM
Well if we Based it purely on this most recent scheduling screwup that allowed everyone to drop Christmas? The answer is...

AA!

full of luv
12-01-2017, 04:54 AM
Well if we Based it purely on this most recent scheduling screwup that allowed everyone to drop Christmas? The answer is...

AA!

Exactly what other company is so generous that it allows junior pilots to drop xmas after pbs bids close and offer 200% pay to have them come in to work trips they would otherwise been assigned?

Sliceback
12-01-2017, 05:08 AM
AA’s offering 150% so the answer to your questions is “not AA.”

AA did offer the F/A’s 300% last year after screwing up their Christmas bidding.

Boeing Aviator
12-01-2017, 06:27 AM
Boeing Aviator - for UA to experience that fleet growth, via domestic growth, would require SW, AA, and DL to just sit back and let UA effectively take all 9-12% of the upcoming domestic growth. Or if the other Big 3 grew by roughly 5% domestically UA would grow by 14-17% domestically.

If anything I’d think it might be more likely that DL increases its large w/b percentage.

Maybe or maybe not. Post merger with our previous management team UAL got smaller and gave up a lot of flying. We may have more room in our hubs to grow vs AA & DAL in their hubs. May not happen, but I wouldn’t just rule it out. It is a factor to consider looking forward between all 3 legacies.

Sliceback
12-01-2017, 06:39 AM
Guys could also play “what it AA, or SW, got the w/b percentages UA has.”

I’d recommend assuming the relative relationship between the Big 4 stays relatively stable.

Mover
12-01-2017, 07:32 AM
Exactly what other company is so generous that it allows junior pilots to drop xmas after pbs bids close and offer 200% pay to have them come in to work trips they would otherwise been assigned?

Fake news.

sherpster
12-02-2017, 01:10 AM
From my outside the company perspective it seems like all the UAL talk of adding capacity hasnt resulted in more pilots being hired. There aren't any classes posted for Jan yet. Meanwhile AA has announced officially 925 new hires and has scheduled pilots for Jan class dates and has Feb class dates on the books.

I do keep reading about new RJ's at UAL though.

blizzue
12-02-2017, 06:15 AM
From my outside the company perspective it seems like all the UAL talk of adding capacity hasnt resulted in more pilots being hired. There aren't any classes posted for Jan yet. Meanwhile AA has announced officially 925 new hires and has scheduled pilots for Jan class dates and has Feb class dates on the books.

I do keep reading about new RJ's at UAL though.

I'm new here but I wouldn't read too much into us not having classes posted. They didn't do any staffing updates for a month and when that returns I imagine the classes will be published.

azdryheat
12-02-2017, 10:09 PM
After well over 30 years of doing this, here is my take:

If you have 25+ years left, who is the best to work for will change at least 3 or 4 times. You won't know the answer to this question until after you retire.

So go where you are offered a job that you want to do for a long time and enjoy the ride.

sherpster
12-05-2017, 09:00 AM
Anybody know the general idea of fleet numbers for AA going forward? I saw on this board the 80's and E190's are slated for retirement. Are they being back filled? The AA retirements are higher than all the other Major airlines but if the fleet shrinks then it really won't matter that much.

Just wondering.

mainlineAF
12-05-2017, 09:55 AM
Anybody know the general idea of fleet numbers for AA going forward? I saw on this board the 80's and E190's are slated for retirement. Are they being back filled? The AA retirements are higher than all the other Major airlines but if the fleet shrinks then it really won't matter that much.



Just wondering.



Slice could tell you better but i think block hours have actually increased over the last few years even though the mainline fleet has shrunk slightly.

There’s only 20 190s and 50ish 80s left. They’re being replaced by 73s and more buses. The fleet is supposed to stay relatively stagnant.

Sliceback
12-05-2017, 11:15 AM
A couple of years ago there were so many unassigned S80’s that just replacing them 1:1 with 737’s, that would be flying, was going to the same as a doubled digit (30???) increase in fleet size.

The fleet is being back filled. 64 n/b retirements in 2017-2019, 85 new AB/737 deliveries in the same period. Data subject to some change but hopefully fairly close.

Google ‘ MIT Airline Data Project’ and there’s a lot of data.

US/AA 2011 - 2016 block hour data -

2011. 3,361 (000’s)
2012. 3,339
2013. 3,448
2014. 3,602
2015. 3,479
2016. 3,495

4% more than 2011, 3% less than 2014. Half full vs half empty?

sherpster
12-05-2017, 12:14 PM
Neat site. 972 aircraft in 2015, 935 in 2016. Whats the fleet count today? I know you like block hours but if they have the planes then they will use them, won't they? If not, they will idle them.

Name User
12-05-2017, 12:20 PM
Block hours are what matter

Sliceback
12-05-2017, 01:40 PM
S80’s had a lot of ‘unassigned’ aircraft. So block hours, and not fleet count, is more important.

mainlineAF
12-05-2017, 03:43 PM
I’d guess 2014 block hours were hour because they hadn’t trimmed the merger overlap yet.

Sliceback
12-05-2017, 04:32 PM
Agreed. A 3% percent reduction is fairly mild. Hopefully it starts trending up.

webecheck
12-10-2017, 08:23 AM
From my outside the company perspective it seems like all the UAL talk of adding capacity hasnt resulted in more pilots being hired. There aren't any classes posted for Jan yet. Meanwhile AA has announced officially 925 new hires and has scheduled pilots for Jan class dates and has Feb class dates on the books.

I do keep reading about new RJ's at UAL though.

The plan to grow starts with adding RJ feed to hubs, trying to capture those markets where it makes sense to fly to a UA hub. Some established markets have upgauged to mainline already, and some hub to hub and hub to major markets(mco, sea, bos, tpa) have upgauged as well. None of that has really driven a need to expand the seniority list by much. The added mainline flying which has, has mostly been offset by increased scheduling efficiency with pbs and increased reserve utilization.

Having said all that, the mgmt plan is either going to take off soon (pun intended), or capacity growth will stall and wall street will be the first to get notified. New mgmt has not been ambiguous about saying UAL's previous shrinkage was a bad idea, so if you had to pick a legacy that will offer the most relative seniority progression over the next few years due to SL expansion, UAL is what I'd bet on.

Sliceback
12-10-2017, 08:38 AM
“so if you had to pick a legacy that will offer the most relative seniority progression over the next few years due to SL expansion, UAL is what I'd bet on.“

Alex - for $500 I’ll take “which legacy offers the best relative seniority gain?”

17/22/27/32 yr seniotity number forecast, early 2027 data, using APC’s data -

AA - 4500/2000/950/400
UA - 5100/2550/1250/650
DL - 6500/4350/3000/1700

webecheck
12-10-2017, 08:45 AM
“so if you had to pick a legacy that will offer the most relative seniority progression over the next few years due to SL expansion, UAL is what I'd bet on.“

Alex - for $500 I’ll take “which legacy offers the best relative seniority gain?”

17/22/27/32 yr seniotity number forecast, early 2027 data, using APC’s data -

AA - 4500/2000/950/400
UA - 5100/2550/1250/650
DL - 6500/4350/3000/1700

Not sure what your point is, your first number shows a 17yrs from now number, whereas I clearly qualified my statement. Lets say someone wants to be a top pay rate widebody FO lineholder 5 years from now...best odds-UAL

Sliceback
12-10-2017, 10:34 AM
For the next 8 yrs AA has more retirements, both as a percentage and actual count.

Your first statement related to relative seniority gain. The data doesn’t support your statement that UA’s relative gain exceeds AA’s.

UA’s larger w/b total makes your second statement, using a different comparison, perhaps true. Using today's bidding patterns guys might be CA’s at AA in five years. 3,600+ retirements, 25% of the list, in the next five years makes that possible. All it will take is 2% more retirements in the next five years, vs the planned retirements, as well as everyone having the same bidding patterns in the future.

Your second comparison, using w/b FO’s, is tricker. We don’t have UA’s G4 data. In five years only 3 of 9 G4 FO bid statuses will at AA be available to a current newhire using today’s bidding/planning data. In six years it advances to 5 of 9 due to retirements and in 7 yrs it will be 9 of 9.

You’re also assuming UA will expand faster than DL or AA in the next five years? Has a management mentioned that?

sherpster
12-10-2017, 11:02 AM
Are the numbers on APC correct?

from 2018-2026 AA retires 52% and UAL 35%.
UAL would have to outgrow AA by close to 2% a year. Wide body or not, that seems like a hefty number to overcome.

webecheck
12-10-2017, 05:21 PM
You’re also assuming UA will expand faster than DL or AA in the next five years? Has a management mentioned that?

Yes, they have. So my point is number of people hired after you in a short amount of time leading to seniority list expansion and a higher relative seniority. Similar to what a delta 2013 hire experienced. Who knows if it's true, but mgmt claims fastest growing US airline for next 5 years.

I do have to say though, even in the minimal seniority list expansion I've experienced since I was hired (approx 400 more pilots on the list than at my class date) and of course the smallest number of retirements per year for any in the next 20 more or less, I have more equipment and base options than I can keep up with up. Movement happens faster than I'm ready. You simply can't go wrong at any of the big 3.

N10DJ
12-10-2017, 05:49 PM
This is the perfect time to bring this up since you guys are semi comparing realative time to wb fleet/ G3 & 4 pay...

I know at AA, the pilot group really wanted and probably still wants the A321 to be categorized as a G3 aircraft. It's not actually a wide-body but at the end of the day if it's in the same category with the 75/76 then who cares lol. So in the case that AA in their next contract were to actually get that improvement, what would be the comparison then for amount of G3 & 4 planes between AA and UA? There's supposed to be almost 220 A321's so wouldn't AA at that point pretty much blow everyone else out the water? Or is this something that's very unlikely to happen and I'm just making a fool of myself for asking in the first place :confused:

Sliceback
12-11-2017, 03:25 AM
UA pays their 757 pilots at G2 rates.

G3 is only 6% more then G2.

G3 to G4 is where the big jump in pay is.

mainlineAF
12-11-2017, 04:25 AM
UA pays their 757 pilots at G2 rates.



G3 is only 6% more then G2.



G3 to G4 is where the big jump in pay is.



Exactly. Group 3 is dumb. Not saying i dont want the 321 to Pay group 3 I’m saying group 3 isn’t enough of a pay raise for the crappy flying and worse seniority compared to group 2.

viper548
12-11-2017, 05:22 AM
Exactly. Group 3 is dumb. Not saying i dont want the 321 to Pay group 3 I’m saying group 3 isn’t enough of a pay raise for the crappy flying and worse seniority compared to group 2.

This. Look at PHX, the 757 trips are so bad they make less per month than a lot of A320 guys

mainlineAF
12-11-2017, 05:34 AM
This. Look at PHX, the 757 trips are so bad they make less per month than a lot of A320 guys



Yep. But hopefully isom comes through bc average calendar day will fix that.

BeechPilot33
12-11-2017, 06:21 AM
“so if you had to pick a legacy that will offer the most relative seniority progression over the next few years due to SL expansion, UAL is what I'd bet on.“

Alex - for $500 I’ll take “which legacy offers the best relative seniority gain?”

17/22/27/32 yr seniotity number forecast, early 2027 data, using APC’s data -

AA - 4500/2000/950/400
UA - 5100/2550/1250/650
DL - 6500/4350/3000/1700

Sliceback,

AA wins if hired in the next few years but I bet the numbers are even for a 2021 hire. It also depends on how many both hire in the next few years. What is AA hire target for 2018?

Sliceback
12-11-2017, 08:27 AM
Beechpilot - AA’s target is 900-925. Union says they’d like 1100 but can’t handle that many newbies yet. I’d guess once the S80 retirements, and then E-190 retirements, slow down new hire intake can increase. At some point it will need in order to replace the 5200+ AA loses in six years.

Different hiring numbers by the different airlines will change the dynamic in future years. If we could predicate how many pilots A vs B vs C hires we’d have a better answer. And knowing the age of the new hires hired between now and 2021, as well as the age of the new hire in 2021, are also part of the puzzle. And then throw in the different G2 and G4 fleet percentages. Is the 2021 new hire young enough to become a G5? Or should the comparison only include G2 flying? Based on those variables I prefer to advance nearer to 2021. I like to say “the closer you get to the future the clearer the future becomes.”

Rsv4lyfe
12-11-2017, 08:43 AM
Or go to FedEx where you can spend the majority of your career on the highest pay rates.

Commuting on company is a piece of cake. Nights aren't terrible. 50/50 day/night flying.

Another option.

crewdawg
12-12-2017, 08:22 AM
Or go to FedEx where you can spend the majority of your career on the highest pay rates.

Commuting on company is a piece of cake. Nights aren't terrible. 50/50 day/night flying.

Another option.

If I were forced to commute, FDX is where I would be trying to go. Having said that, don't commute.

Rsv4lyfe
12-12-2017, 10:47 AM
If I were forced to commute, FDX is where I would be trying to go. Having said that, don't commute.

This is so true.

sherpster
12-12-2017, 07:17 PM
I must have misread the title of this thread. I thought I saw AA v UAL not AA v Fedex

You have that night flying

Floobs
12-13-2017, 01:57 PM
Who's required to wear the hat? Go with the one that's not.

sherpster
12-22-2017, 02:53 PM
Who's required to wear the hat? Go with the one that's not.

Once less thing to haul around on your commute

mainlineAF
12-22-2017, 04:54 PM
Who's required to wear the hat? Go with the one that's not.



AA doesn’t have to wear the hat. I think UA has to wear it when they wear their blazers but I’m not sure.

sherpster
01-26-2018, 06:18 PM
I just left UAL training for AA and I am really glad I did. AA is a top notch operation.

Galaxy5
01-26-2018, 07:33 PM
I just left UAL training for AA and I am really glad I did. AA is a top notch operation.



Curious about why you left...better domiciles for you, seniority progression, etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Floobs
01-26-2018, 10:12 PM
Curious about why you left...better domiciles for you, seniority progression, etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No hat, duh.

Mover
01-27-2018, 04:15 AM
I just left UAL training for AA and I am really glad I did. AA is a top notch operation.

You obviously haven't read our contract yet.

Han Solo
01-27-2018, 04:38 AM
Well, UA management just showed their savvy by dragging down the entire industry this week. If someday there are only 2 legacy airlines, it sure would be nice to be employed by one of the survivors.

sherpster
01-27-2018, 06:54 AM
You obviously haven't read our contract yet.

So what if ual has some goodies in their contract. AA is hiring over 900 pilots this year and probably 900+ for years to come. They have a plan for you the moment you get called for an interview. They have a bettter product. They have better policies.

My UAL friends still dont know if there will be new hire classes after March. The whole operation seems like a mess. I dont see UAL being around long term.

Mover
01-27-2018, 06:56 AM
So what if ual has some goodies in their contract. AA is hiring over 900 pilots this year and probably 900+ for years to come. They have a plan for you the moment you get called for an interview. They have a bettter product. They have better policies.

My UAL friends still dont know if there will be new hire classes after March. The whole operation seems like a mess. I dont see UAL being around long term.

So what? Are you serious? You don't think having strong contract language with good QOL is important?

sherpster
01-27-2018, 07:20 AM
So what? Are you serious? You don't think having strong contract language with good QOL is important?

sorry, i thought you were a ual guy ripping on the aa contract. Of course I think it is important.

I am unsubscribing from this post now. Thanks to everyone for the information.

MasterOfPuppets
01-27-2018, 09:01 AM
Well, UA management just showed their savvy by dragging down the entire industry this week. If someday there are only 2 legacy airlines, it sure would be nice to be employed by one of the survivors.

AA made more revenue in the 4th quarter than UA and DL yet had the lowest profit and margin.......who will survive?

MasterOfPuppets
01-27-2018, 09:06 AM
I just left UAL training for AA and I am really glad I did. AA is a top notch operation.

You didn't leave UA training for AA you left the pool thats kind of a big difference.

I love UA, I have nothing but great things to say and am encouraged our new management is headed in the correct direction. However if AA had offered me a class first I would be at AA, and I'm sure I would love it there. You made a good choice go to the airline that gives you the first class date. I don't know why you constantly have to bag on UA, sorry they made you sim for a few months, get over it :rolleyes:.

full of luv
01-27-2018, 10:05 AM
My UAL friends still dont know if there will be new hire classes after March. The whole operation seems like a mess. I dont see UAL being around long term.

They’ve been saying that since late 2000.

If I had a $ for every time I’ve read an article or post predicting UALs demise I’d at least have enough for a good steak dinner!

MasterOfPuppets
01-27-2018, 10:26 AM
My UAL friends still dont know if there will be new hire classes after March. The whole operation seems like a mess. I dont see UAL being around long term.

By the way you posted this on 11-14-2017 just 2 months ago on an AA thread:

"The 25B in debt makes me wonder what happens when there is a slight blip in the economy and they cant make those aircraft payments."

Rsv4lyfe
01-27-2018, 10:42 AM
By the way you posted this on 11-14-2017 just 2 months ago on an AA thread:

"The 25B in debt makes me wonder what happens when there is a slight blip in the economy and they cant make those aircraft payments."

Oh don’t worry. He’s the same guy that wanted to fly to Memphis to “drop off a resume at the FedEx recruiting office,” then a month later bashed FedEx and all their night flying.

I don’t think he knows what he wants.

Han Solo
01-27-2018, 11:19 AM
AA made more revenue in the 4th quarter than UA and DL yet had the lowest profit and margin.......who will survive?

Whoever claims to know is full of stuff, that much I know.

JetBlast77
01-28-2018, 09:54 AM
I just left UAL training for AA and I am really glad I did. AA is a top notch operation.

This dude is the biggest troll on all of APC. Don’t let him get you riled up. If what he says is true and he really is going to AA, they can have him. I never understood the people who have the “my airline vs your airline” mentality. We are pilots. We aren’t managers or shareholders. We were hired to do one specific job. We have very little effect on how our respective companies are doing. Advancement in this career has ZERO to do with skill. None of us are better than the next guy.

I have friends at LCCs who have told me stories from the Jumpseat about legacy pilots talking down to them because they aren’t flying for “the big guys”. Who cares? Everyone has the magic pay and QOL they are looking for. If you can minimize the commute and make a good living, that’s what matters. Work to live, don’t live to work. I feel bad for the people that make this career their entire life. There’s so much more out there. Not sure where that rant came from, but I’m done now 😜

ReadyRsv
01-29-2018, 11:07 AM
Kind of late but if you live in a base then it's almost always going to better to go to that airline.

sherpster
02-02-2018, 10:35 AM
Too funny, thanks for the laugh

You got me. I never had a U number and those UAL uniforms in my basement were bought on Ebay. I am also guilty of reseaching various employment options and trying to make an informed decision (take me out back and shoot me).

You enjoy ual and I will enjoy AA. When you reply you will be that much closer to 1500 posts! Maybe you can have a party to celebrate your achievement. Get a banner that says “1500 posts” and hang it in the living room.