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billsaw
11-23-2017, 03:03 PM
I came across this and it looks like they get it. Maybe some help for the corporate guys. Part 91 flight departments are no longer competing with other Part 91 departments to see how much they can squeeze for the least amount. They are competing with the airlines.


https://www.nbaa.org/news/flight-plan/nbaa-flight-plan-20171113.mp3


100LL
11-23-2017, 04:58 PM
While may be true, however the only problem is the companies that are actually worth working for with excellent pay combined with exceptional qol arenít hiring pilots because no one wants to leave them. Also to even be considered for a career with them you really have to know someone there unless you are good at sucking D

Lucky8888
11-23-2017, 06:54 PM
While may be true, however the only problem is the companies that are actually worth working for with excellent pay combined with exceptional qol arenít hiring pilots because no one wants to leave them. Also to even be considered for a career with them you really have to know someone there unless you are good at sucking D

You are exactly correct. We've had two pilots leave for the Airlines in 5 years. We've had no other attrition. We haven't had to hire anyone in the last 3 years.


831pilot
11-23-2017, 10:54 PM
Good point at 3:55 during the interview. When it comes to small mom n pop operations, most often it's 2 pilots per crewed airplane or a one man show for a single pilot plane. Either always on call, or the only hard days you can have off is when the plane is in MX. Long term, that doesn't work. It's very draining knowing that anytime the phone may ring and it's time to go to work, as well as not being able to schedule time off in advance. One way to significantly improve the corporate qol is to add an extra pilot and create a rotation, though some operators might be resistant to such option

billsaw
11-24-2017, 08:40 AM
While may be true, however the only problem is the companies that are actually worth working for with excellent pay combined with exceptional qol arenít hiring pilots because no one wants to leave them. Also to even be considered for a career with them you really have to know someone there unless you are good at sucking D


I think you may not be seeing the whole picture.

Say there are 5% of biz jet operators (probably less like 1%) that everybody wants to work for. You know the ones that have 4 or more pilots per plane and pay at the top of their class good mx, etc. Real professional operations. Well this isn't about them. They will be fine.

What this will affect is the other 95% (or more) that don't want to pay well, work people to death, or have them on call 24/7/365.

If those operators want pilots (especially good ones) they will have to seriously change their work schedules and pay scales to mirror that of the airlines. If they don't, rest assured they will be flying with the same group of guys they would have been flying with just the aircraft won't have their companies logo on it, it will say Delta, Southwest, American, etc. while theirs is sitting in the hangar collecting dust.

Imagine this. Instead of a handful of companies in the US you really would like to work for now there will be 500 to choose from that will let you have a life and pay you well.

SonicFlyer
11-24-2017, 09:18 AM
I think you may not be seeing the whole picture.

Say there are 5% of biz jet operators (probably less like 1%) that everybody wants to work for. You know the ones that have 4 or more pilots per plane and pay at the top of their class good mx, etc. Real professional operations. Well this isn't about them. They will be fine.

What this will affect is the other 95% (or more) that don't want to pay well, work people to death, or have them on call 24/7/365.

If those operators want pilots (especially good ones) they will have to seriously change their work schedules and pay scales to mirror that of the airlines. If they don't, rest assured they will be flying with the same group of guys they would have been flying with just the aircraft won't have their companies logo on it, it will say Delta, Southwest, American, etc. while theirs is sitting in the hangar collecting dust.

Imagine this. Instead of a handful of companies in the US you really would like to work for now there will be 500 to choose from that will let you have a life and pay you well.Except that you forget that many of these outfits cannot justify the extra expense so they will simply eliminate themselves out of the market since it will cost them too much to hire and support pilots.

billsaw
11-24-2017, 11:24 AM
Except that you forget that many of these outfits cannot justify the extra expense so they will simply eliminate themselves out of the market since it will cost them too much to hire and support pilots.

Yea some 1970's Lear Jets will get retired finally and many of those guys who were just "keeping up with the Jones" will disappear. And good riddance. They need to be on the airlines anyway. Most of them never had full operating crews anyway and are the operations that have one guy whose job ad reads like this

Pilot wantedLear 35 or Hawker 700 or Falcon 10 or whatever old tub you can think of
Must be typed and current. Must have 5,000TT, 2,000 in type, 1,000PIC in type. Must have a masters degree and been a fighter pilot. Being a Blue Angel is a plus.

Looking for a good guy who can manage our operation out of KXXX airport. We are a great company to work for. Responsibilities include hiring contract FO's to fly with you. Flying the airplane, booking hotels for flight crew and owner and transportation coordinator. Sweeping and maintaining the hanger. Washing and polishing the brightwork on the plane, and the owners cars if you don't fly that week. Oh yea and his pool boy just quit so maintaining owners pool at his house. You may be needed in the office to do some mundane choirs. You will also be responsible for managing the maintenance on the aircraft and the lawnmowers. Oops I almost forgot, cutting the grass at the hangar and landscaping at the owners house (poolboy was the also the landscaper). We will need you to be at the office every morning at 0700 with donuts and to drop off the bosses dry cleaning when not on the road. When on the road we will need you to leave you hotel ($50 a day is our budget for yours) to go to the bosses Four Seasons by 0630 as you are also the chauffeur while on the road. Being a good cook is a plus.

Pay starts at 50k (tops out at 52k)
Per diem is $14 a day
no health
no dental
no 401k
vacation 2 weeks annually but must be used retroactively on Sundays when you were already at home previously.

So yea those guys/\/\/\/\/\ will go away and good. Who wants to do that kind of crap.

But I challenge you with this.

When fuel prices were through the roof did rich guys stop flying their private aircraft? Nope. Maybe the guys above did but not the rich guys and companies. And they won't either when pilot cost goes up.

billsaw
11-24-2017, 02:17 PM
Just had this sent to me.

https://www.apiaviation.com/bizav-leader-pilot-compensation/?utm_source=October+2017+Newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter+Oct+2017&utm_medium=email#sthash.LRL05lus.IeHTYNrN.dpbs

galaxy flyer
11-25-2017, 03:30 PM
Just as the marginal airlines experience, the 135 and corporate operators will experienceóno pilots at a price their customer base is willing to pay for. The top-flight shops will offer competitive T&Cs, attract good people and retain them. The others will be priced out.

A chief pilot at an operator I know wanted to move on. The owner liked him and offered what was needed, including a commuting package (wife wanted to move back to her home). If your valuable and the owner has the money, an agreement can always be made.

If youíre a marginal charter operator or regional carrier, expect to be a training shop for low experience pilots.

GF

Lucky8888
11-25-2017, 05:25 PM
A chief pilot at an operator I know wanted to move on. The owner liked him and offered what was needed, including a commuting package (wife wanted to move back to her home). If your valuable and the owner has the money, an agreement can always be made.

GF

Agreed. It's almost always less expensive to do whatever it takes to retain a highly qualified individual than it is to recruit a new person. It's just good business sense.

galaxy flyer
11-25-2017, 06:58 PM
Agreed. It's almost always less expensive to do whatever it takes to retain a highly qualified individual than it is to recruit a new person. It's just good business sense.

I think a lot of pilots are insecure, concerned about their relationship with the leadership. It’s a two-way street, have confidence in your work and leaders need to promote loyalty by returning respect and coaching. I never worried about what the boss thought-did my best and stood behind my work always.

And way too much emphasis on money—there’s much more to life than next week’s bank deposit. Respect, giving responsibility, personal growth, interesting environment mean a lot when it comes to employment.

GF

atpcliff
11-25-2017, 10:42 PM
I just flew with an FO that came from corporate. He really liked his job, but was on call 24/7 indefinitely, and all of his days off were days in the past week or so that they didn't use him to fly...he was notified of his days off after they occurred.

He is liking the air carrier operation where I am a lot better, overall.

galaxy flyer
11-26-2017, 07:39 AM
Those operations will have to adjust, but airlines were once that way. The EAL contract was 10 days off, the remaining days for reserves were 24/7. I got a call at 2am for an 0630 show time once. My corporate ops had 8 hard days off, 3 weeks vacation plus 5 personal days that could be used almost at will. If the planes were gone, no on-call. With 4-5 pilots per plane, being on call was rare. It wasnít unusual to have most of a month off.

Different strokes for different folks. Horses for Courses.

GF

billsaw
11-26-2017, 08:38 AM
I think a lot of pilots are insecure, concerned about their relationship with the leadership. It’s a two-way street, have confidence in your work and leaders need to promote loyalty by returning respect and coaching. I never worried about what the boss thought-did my best and stood behind my work always.

And way too much emphasis on money—there’s much more to life than next week’s bank deposit. Respect, giving responsibility, personal growth, interesting environment mean a lot when it comes to employment.

GF

I agree with the insecurity of pilots aspect. Many pilots got scared of losing their job in the downturn and unlike the airlines the guy in the back can fire you in one second. Pilots are also nervous to jump from one corporate outfit to another in a lot of cases because they don't want to fall for the grass is greener deal. On the other hand most operators absolutely will not change until they have to. If you got a flight department with 6 pilots and nobody is willing to quit why change anything?

Now on to your second paragraph I will agree and disagree. First off anyone who says it's not about the money it is about the money. I mean ALL about the money and the other stuff you mentioned.

People are tired in the corporate world of being on call 24/7/365. Are you showing your pilots respect by working them like that:rolleyes: No. And nobody is gonna quit a job where they get along with their owners for 2 more days off a month or a couple grand.

But buddy believe me when you got guys out there that are Hawker captains making 100,000, or a Citation X captain making 110,000 and you tell them that hey not only will you make the same amount with brand X airline on day 1 in 3 short years you will make twice as much. And oh yea "we respect you so much" unlike your previous employer (who was a great guy;);)) you don't even have to work half the month. We will give you 401k, good medical and dental for your family, no more on call 24/7/365, loss of license, KCM, travel benifits and the list goes on and on and on.

That my friend is when it becomes about the money, all about the money. And all that other stuff you mentioned. Nobody is gonna quit over a 5,000 a year raise. But believe this, virtually everybody is gonna quit for double the money and the mountain of other perks that 98% of biz jet operators do not offer.

There are a few operators seeing this and getting ahead of the game. Those are the ones that never hire anyway because they always been at the top and will remain so.

The rest are going to have to do some serious soul searching on exactly how much they "respect" their flight crews and that boils down to money. Money to put in their 401k. Money to hire more pilots so they aren't on call 24/7/365. Money for good healthcare. Money to pay them more, way more, like the airlines. Money for good training, etc, etc, etc. So you see in one way or another it does all boil down to money.

billsaw
11-26-2017, 08:45 AM
One question for everyone. Maybe two:D

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?

Powderkeg
11-26-2017, 12:11 PM
One question for everyone. Maybe two:D

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?

Maybe? Maybe not? This exercise is a waste of time. I used to ask myself the same thing but then I realized it would never be the case so I left corporate.

galaxy flyer
11-26-2017, 01:04 PM
One question for everyone. Maybe two:D

Should bizjet pilots make more money than airline pilots? Why or why not?

They should make what they can negotiate for and what the company willing to pay.

Yes, with the gulf between airlines and EVERY other flying job, 95% will leave (fill in the blank, mil, regional, corporate, ag, whatever flying) ASSUMING they get offers. News Flash: many apply, not all get hired. So, if you get hired at a legacy/major, like the work, it’s indeed the best career as a pilot. No. Argument. There. If you don’t hit that lottery, you, Sir, are gonna be flying something else.

I did EAL for 5 years, I’d give up a lot of money to not be as bored which is why I stayed military and then flew corporate. I retired well off, so it’s possible w/o being an airline pilot,, despite rumors to the contrary.

GF

billsaw
11-26-2017, 03:31 PM
News Flash: many apply, not all get hired.
GF

The thing is not all will need to get hired. Not even close to half. You take 10% (mind you these will be the major airline qualified experienced guys with 4,000+ hours not the FO's) and you just sent the business aviation pilot market into a tailspin.

With many flight departments already running bare bones (2 pilots per plane) there is no capacity to loose even a small percentage. Could you imagine if you went to 1 in 5 of the flight department in the US running anything Challenger and bigger and took just one experienced captain? Where are they gonna get the guy to replace him?

Which brings us to the FO's. Reports are it's even hard for the corporate operators to hire rookie FO's onto planes that only fly 150 hours a year. Why? Because all they want to do is get to 1,500 and get to the airlines. By the time they do that on 150 hour per year aircraft the hiring boom will be over and they will be at the bottom of a seniority list for 30 years. They aren't as stupid as we may think.

And just that mentality of I am outta here the first chance I get being so widespread should make operators and management companies really reevaluate the corporate pay structure. If the airlines start poaching captains and the FO's en mass have no intention of hanging around past 1,500 hours in a few years bizav will be cleaned out. A brain drain of sorts. Which is dangerous to all these billionaires and millionaires that value their health.

Every single flight department in the US needs to think long and hard about matching airline pay and QOL and they need to do it fast. I would not want to be a chief pilot of a flight department right now who's owners or HR have not or will not come to that realization. It's gonna be a miserable job.

And as far as that NBAA salary survey goes (which is what owners/HR seem to look at) isn't even good enough to wipe my *** with. Those people that produce that should be summarily fired. It will be really interesting to read next year to see what top pay is on large cabin aircraft now that it's basically public knowledge that some are paying big bucks. Before they just refused to publish the high paying stuff bringing the average down.


Two more questions if I were management that would be on my mind. How many guys in my flight department have their applications in with the airlines?
How many applications do I have from Delta, American, UPS etc pilots wanting to come work for me?
That should tell you all you need to know.

billsaw
11-26-2017, 03:50 PM
Maybe? Maybe not? This exercise is a waste of time. I used to ask myself the same thing but then I realized it would never be the case so I left corporate.

This is not aimed at you. You just proved my point 100%.

That is the line of thinking that a lot of guys have. Biz jets will never pay more than airlines. Why not? And I get the whole round and round argument. But one thing I can promise every single pilot, chief pilot, and DO at every biz av operator. If you think your second rate to an airline pilot then you are, and you will always be paid as such. Time to sack up:D

Powderkeg is just one more guy lost to the airlines with none flowing the other way;)

One last note these guys running these big management companies for years have been dead set against having more than two pilots on a plane for the last decade keeping pilots QOL in the can. So even though the big guy at the "JA" company now has seen the light and now "knows" what he and the owners need to do it is people just like him that put himself in the mess they are just starting to enter.

galaxy flyer
11-26-2017, 05:15 PM
Yea and No, billsaw,

Mid-80s, hiring was fast and furious everywhere, maybe ten legacies all hiring 60-100 a month. I grabbed the first offer from EAL in early ‘85. Guys were leaving HPN like crazy—G2, Falcons, Hawker drivers. Chief Pilots were wondering what hit ‘em. I made more in my second year as a Boeing F/E than as a Sabre 65 captain. Six years later, furloughs, EA and PAA when bust, loads of pilots on the street, all trying to get back their old jobs. It took years to unwind that cycle.

In ‘98, I was a senior ART in the Reserves, I thought we’d never keep a young pilot for more than a year or two to transition off probation. I thought maybe, just maybe, it’d would be worth going to UA. Then, 9/11 happened and I had all those same guys banging on the door to get back in the Reserves. Well, those ‘98 guys went thru a blood bath for a decade.

Yes, it’s an epic hiring cycle, but derailment is never far away. For all pilots. I’ve lived these roller coaster too many times to believe the sky is falling.

GF

atpcliff
11-26-2017, 06:12 PM
I have seen this from two different sources:

According to AA HR:
In 2007, they had 13,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.
In 2017, they had 3,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.

In 2018, UAL announced they are planning to hire 1200.

1200 hires at UAL puts the AA resume bucket down to close to 2000. Then, take out the AA/DAL/SWA/UPS/FedEx hires in 2018, and you have close to 1000 resumes left, plus a few additional, for the 2019 hiring year...

According to a Hawaiian pilot:
Jan, 2015, HA had thousands of resumes on file.
Spring, 2015, HA had hundreds of resumes on file.
A new contract was signed shortly after...

HRs everywhere will be getting more and more desperate...

galaxy flyer
11-26-2017, 06:41 PM
Everyone keeps thinking the stack of resumes is static. New apps come in daily, pilots come off AD; corporate pilots get the bug to move, Army helo bubbas get fixed wing time. There is a tightening of supply, but thatís normal when lots of hiring is happening.

GF

billsaw
11-26-2017, 07:44 PM
Yea and No, billsaw,

Mid-80s, hiring was fast and furious everywhere, maybe ten legacies all hiring 60-100 a month. I grabbed the first offer from EAL in early ‘85. Guys were leaving HPN like crazy—G2, Falcons, Hawker drivers. Chief Pilots were wondering what hit ‘em. I made more in my second year as a Boeing F/E than as a Sabre 65 captain. Six years later, furloughs, EA and PAA when bust, loads of pilots on the street, all trying to get back their old jobs. It took years to unwind that cycle.

In ‘98, I was a senior ART in the Reserves, I thought we’d never keep a young pilot for more than a year or two to transition off probation. I thought maybe, just maybe, it’d would be worth going to UA. Then, 9/11 happened and I had all those same guys banging on the door to get back in the Reserves. Well, those ‘98 guys went thru a blood bath for a decade.

Yes, it’s an epic hiring cycle, but derailment is never far away. For all pilots. I’ve lived these roller coaster too many times to believe the sky is falling.

GF

But in the 80's there was plenty of supply to back that kind of hiring spree. Now not so much. There is the crux of the problem.

BTW the military puts out a fraction of the pilots it used to on the civilian market. There are a lot fewer aircraft in the military compared to the 70's and 80's coupled with longer enlistment times = less guys hitting the market.

Plus the Airforce is a little short these days if I recall correctly.

galaxy flyer
11-26-2017, 08:13 PM
But in the 80's there was plenty of supply to back that kind of hiring spree. Now not so much. There is the crux of the problem.

BTW the military puts out a fraction of the pilots it used to on the civilian market. There are a lot fewer aircraft in the military compared to the 70's and 80's coupled with longer enlistment times = less guys hitting the market.

Plus the Airforce is a little short these days if I recall correctly.

Not really true, funny enough the “10,000 apps on file” is the same number used then with similar declining numbers of apps. The military had a big drawdown after Vietnam; the VN generation were hired in the lead up to the ‘73 and ‘79 fuel crunches and suffered their own “lost years”. I was a ‘76 UPT grad and fewer than a 1,000 AF pilots were graduated. With more carriers and more requirements due to F/Es, hiring was big and reducing supply. AA had to increase its second tier pay to attract enough applicants. My class at EAL was mostly civilian—Navajo and Beech 99 commuters, corporate, cargo guys, only 3 or 4 military.

Everyone is so used to surplus pilots, they believe the current hiring is a crisis. It ain’t; it will worked out with upgaugjng, minor service cuts and, in the corporate sector, bidd8ng up of T&C. There we agree.

Being pedantic, pilots don’t enlist, they’re commissioned.

GF

Powderkeg
11-27-2017, 06:09 AM
But one thing I can promise every single pilot, chief pilot, and DO at every biz av operator. If you think your second rate to an airline pilot then you are, and you will always be paid as such. Time to sack up:D

I think you are over simplifying things. If it was that easy then tens of thousands of people throughout the workforce would decide they are not second rate to their companyís CEO and decide to wave their magic wand and become the CEO.

Yes, I know I am also over simplifying too. But itís a free market and as long as there is somebody doing your corporate job cheaper than you then the wages will always be lower than that of airline pilots. Regardless of your self-respect. Unions: love them or hate them they have leveled the playing field. From Day 1 everybody at the airline knows whatís expected and how they will be treated. The pay scales are set, the schedules are set, the work rules are set. The contract is your life.

In corporate the decision makers will always compare you to their buddies whose pilots fly more and are paid less. Experience and ability matter little as long as they get to Aspen/Van Nuys/Teterboro and didnít die. I left corporate of my own free will and I have no anamosity towards my former employer. But I was replaced with somebody MUCH less experienced and MUCH cheaper. As long as no metal gets bent they will think theyíre getting the deal of the century.

If I was a betting man I would guess most corporate jets are going to be just like the regional airlines...a feeder for the majors. Youíll still have the Fortune XXX companies as outliers that pay to retain talent as the smaller businesses either accept they are a stepping stone or call 1-800-NET-JETS

Bucknut
11-27-2017, 06:56 AM
I had a Captain complain that he could not find a good SIC for a contract
gig and is only offering 250 dollars a day. Imagine that!

kcg003
11-27-2017, 07:53 AM
I really liked my 91 job. It was easy, the owners were great to work for, the schedule was great (flew about 100hrs last year), benefits were decent, and it didnít look like theyíd sell the plane anytime soon.
But when I looked at what is happening and still to come with the airlines, I thought ďis making 70k on a G150 going to be what I want for my career?Ē. It wasnít. I wish I could have stayed but I know that in terms of income, stability, retirement, benefits, career experience, and so on I will be miles ahead with the airlines.

galaxy flyer
11-27-2017, 03:42 PM
But I was replaced with somebody MUCH less experienced and MUCH cheaper. As long as no metal gets bent they will think they’re getting the deal of the century.

And therein lies the problem—metal gets bent so infrequently that it’s hard to quantify the value of skill and experience. In the 80s, I was at EAL, all the old guys decried the trends attached to deregulation—less quality, less emphasis on skills and training, fewer ex-mil (opinion held by ex-military guys), girls and minorities in the cockpit, contract givebacks all was going to inevitably to bloodshed and soaring accidents.

Did. Not. Happen. Truth was, air carriers and corporates got safer and safer as technology improved and engineered out pilot error. CFIT and Mid-air collisions disappeared, which only made the true pilot errors like AF 447 and Colgan 3407 stand out.

Safety and pay are totally unrelated, so says the record. Do, your boss probably is getting the deal of the century.

All that said, airline pay has finally returned to its heydays of regulation. It will go up significantly as the investments in better, more efficient planes produces a larger revenue stream. Pilots are paid by revenue and that makes it harder to argue at corporate operators.

GF

flysooner9
11-28-2017, 02:43 PM
I have seen this from two different sources:

According to AA HR:
In 2007, they had 13,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.
In 2017, they had 3,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.

...


You know this for a fact?

BB818
12-12-2017, 05:47 PM
I just got offered 300K to stay at my corporate gig. I'm still seriously thinking about taking my class date at SWA. The pay cut will surely suck but I will never worry about my job again.

inverted25
12-12-2017, 05:48 PM
I just got offered 300K to stay at my corporate gig. I'm still seriously thinking about taking my class date at SWA. Therapy cut will surely suck but I will never worry about my job again.



Who do you work for? Never heard of a salary that high on the 91 side

BB818
12-12-2017, 05:52 PM
Hell-yes. My job as a G-650 captain is easily 10X more difficult that when I was at the airline. I doubt it will ever happen though.

galaxy flyer
12-12-2017, 06:21 PM
Thereís getting to be a lot of 250k-300k Global/G650 pilots, especially in the NYC/LA/SFO areas.

GF

billsaw
01-16-2018, 11:32 AM
There’s getting to be a lot of 250k-300k Global/G650 pilots, especially in the NYC/LA/SFO areas.

GF

Not only that, flight departments are also working on increasing staff so the guys can do rotations.

f10a
01-16-2018, 01:24 PM
Would love to hear who is doing this because the global guys I know are all making 180-200 in the NY area, no rotation, 3% 401k and no hard days off. Without specific examples it is impossible to leverage this data point...

BPWI
01-16-2018, 05:42 PM
Would love to hear who is doing this because the global guys I know are all making 180-200 in the NY area, no rotation, 3% 401k and no hard days off. Without specific examples it is impossible to leverage this data point...

In the last 3 weeks, I've been contacted by 2 separate recruiters offering a salary north of 240K. Still haven't heard about the smaller details (retirement/bonus/LTI/STI's) but I'm listening. And FWIW, neither of them are in the NE or SOCAL.
Without question, they are out there.

billsaw
01-16-2018, 07:44 PM
Would love to hear who is doing this because the global guys I know are all making 180-200 in the NY area, no rotation, 3% 401k and no hard days off. Without specific examples it is impossible to leverage this data point...

That's about to change.

Typhoonpilot
01-17-2018, 05:15 AM
Thereís getting to be a lot of 250k-300k Global/G650 pilots, especially in the NYC/LA/SFO areas.

GF


Even a fair number of 550 guys in the mid-200s now.

Mink
01-17-2018, 12:01 PM
In the last 3 weeks, I've been contacted by 2 separate recruiters offering a salary north of 240K. Still haven't heard about the smaller details (retirement/bonus/LTI/STI's) but I'm listening. And FWIW, neither of them are in the NE or SOCAL.
Without question, they are out there.

PM sent.......

billsaw
01-17-2018, 10:52 PM
You notice how all these small jet jobs posted are even on a rotation.

NatGeo
01-19-2018, 07:52 AM
Yea some 1970's Lear Jets will get retired finally and many of those guys who were just "keeping up with the Jones" will disappear. And good riddance. They need to be on the airlines anyway. Most of them never had full operating crews anyway and are the operations that have one guy whose job ad reads like this

Pilot wantedLear 35 or Hawker 700 or Falcon 10 or whatever old tub you can think of
Must be typed and current. Must have 5,000TT, 2,000 in type, 1,000PIC in type. Must have a masters degree and been a fighter pilot. Being a Blue Angel is a plus.

Looking for a good guy who can manage our operation out of KXXX airport. We are a great company to work for. Responsibilities include hiring contract FO's to fly with you. Flying the airplane, booking hotels for flight crew and owner and transportation coordinator. Sweeping and maintaining the hanger. Washing and polishing the brightwork on the plane, and the owners cars if you don't fly that week. Oh yea and his pool boy just quit so maintaining owners pool at his house. You may be needed in the office to do some mundane choirs. You will also be responsible for managing the maintenance on the aircraft and the lawnmowers. Oops I almost forgot, cutting the grass at the hangar and landscaping at the owners house (poolboy was the also the landscaper). We will need you to be at the office every morning at 0700 with donuts and to drop off the bosses dry cleaning when not on the road. When on the road we will need you to leave you hotel ($50 a day is our budget for yours) to go to the bosses Four Seasons by 0630 as you are also the chauffeur while on the road. Being a good cook is a plus.

Pay starts at 50k (tops out at 52k)
Per diem is $14 a day
no health
no dental
no 401k
vacation 2 weeks annually but must be used retroactively on Sundays when you were already at home previously.

So yea those guys/\/\/\/\/\ will go away and good. Who wants to do that kind of crap.

But I challenge you with this.

When fuel prices were through the roof did rich guys stop flying their private aircraft? Nope. Maybe the guys above did but not the rich guys and companies. And they won't either when pilot cost goes up.


I used to be a recruiter in the oilfields and found this to be hilarious. :D:D It reminds me of the questionable oil company that I used to work for. They paid the least in the oilfield and then charged the workers $2400 a month for housing! I'm surprised there was not a company store where employees were required to spend the rest of their paychecks!

galaxy flyer
01-19-2018, 08:16 AM
Iíve been to KXXX, McDonalds is on the gourmet restaurant listing.

GF

Vital Signs
01-19-2018, 03:40 PM
Iíve been to KXXX, McDonalds is on the gourmet restaurant listing.

GF

No, kxxx is the strip club on the outskirts of van nuys :D

dbflyer
03-14-2018, 09:34 PM
We had another pilot give his notice recently. A couple others have left recently so this finally got the management talking about what it will take to get pilots to stay.

Hopefully we'll see some pay improvements and time off improvements coming shortly,

Thought I'd bring the thread back up to see if other departments are seeing improvements to retain pilots?

FOG95
05-03-2018, 08:08 AM
I just got offered 300K to stay at my corporate gig. I'm still seriously thinking about taking my class date at SWA. The pay cut will surely suck but I will never worry about my job again.

So, what did you wind up doing? Iím new on this forum and weighing job offers with two major airlines and a possible G650.

billsaw
05-06-2018, 11:10 AM
So, what did you wind up doing? Iím new on this forum and weighing job offers with two major airlines and a possible G650.

I would say you gotta go airline.

SrfNFly227
05-06-2018, 11:23 AM
So, what did you wind up doing? Iím new on this forum and weighing job offers with two major airlines and a possible G650.

He took the job with the airline. Came down to schedule and security if I'm remembering right.

FOG95
05-07-2018, 09:32 AM
^^^Thank you. I found the thread he started about his decision. Great info.

Allegheny
05-10-2018, 10:16 AM
[QUOTE=atpcliff;2472703]I have seen this from two different sources:

According to AA HR:
In 2007, they had 13,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.
In 2017, they had 3,000 resumes on file who met their minimums.

In 2018, UAL announced they are planning to hire 1200.

1200 hires at UAL puts the AA resume bucket down to close to 2000. Then, take out the AA/DAL/SWA/UPS/FedEx hires in 2018, and you have close to 1000 resumes left, plus a few additional, for the 2019 hiring year...

I believe this is correct. I work for AA. Parker has made two recent announcements and I believe they are indicative of the pilot shortage situation.



1. The AA academy:
The American Airlines Cadet Academy will train prospective pilots for 18 months at the carrier's partner flight schools, removing financial roadblocks to encourage more to become professional aviators. Once training is complete, students can interview for a position with the airline's regional carriers Envoy, Piedmont and PSA.








2.
business
American Airlines Drops Two Regional Carriers as It Streamlines

By Justin Bachman (https://www.bloomberg.com/authors/APy9HDRlaF8/justin-bachman)
May 4, 2018, 11:40 AM EDT Updated on May 4, 2018, 1:50 PM EDT





ExpressJet, Trans States contracts wonít be renewed in April
Customers wonít be affected as flights move to other airlines




I believe that the reason Parker is reducing outside lift with a pilot shortage going on is to strengthen the wholly owned carriers and strengthen the flow concept. If they flow is stronger, more pilots, and faster upgrades, then Parker believes that he will not have to get into a toe-to-toe bidding war with salary and benefits with other airlines for pilots. If AA can provide a reasonable expectation by a new pilot that his advancement is better at AA then that pilot might not demand the same rates and benefits as somewhere else.


Parker used to spend considerable time and effort keeping the regionals apart to whip saw the pilots. Now with the shortage it makes more sense to consolidate, offer an increased flow, and not get into a cash war with others.



This holds true only for the conditions we now experience. If we are invaded by Aliens, the FAA allows age 90 retirements, a mid-East war breaks out, all the banks fail etc, then Parker will go back to jerking pilots around and whipsawing. It works.

galaxy flyer
05-10-2018, 11:39 AM
Heís still whipaawing pilots, just using the carrot of a future career instead of the whip of take the cut now because you canít take your seniority elsewhere. Same tactic, different incentives

GF

RI830
05-10-2018, 11:48 AM
The email from Dave Tatum doesnít indicate a shortage whatsoever for AA. Now granted he could be blowing smoke to boost hiring at the feeder carriers.
Also, AA considers sim instructors who donít fly 200+ hrs a yr to be unhireable. I know of many instructors who have apps in that canít get a call due to ďnot being currentĒ or ďout of aviationĒ

Gonna be a wild next 10 yrs if the Legacies have to hire anyone and everyone they can get to apply. Makes the 91 and 135 worlds panic.

flysooner9
05-10-2018, 04:53 PM
Iím calling BS on AA or any of the legacyís having less then 3,000 applications on file. Bet the number is still closer to 10k

peaches
05-11-2018, 11:18 AM
Not sure if this has been discussed in this post yet or not but Iíve heard that the legacies are trying to get older pilots that only have 2 or 3 years of airline eligibility from corporate departments to fly their MadDogs until they are either aged out or the fleet is retired. Apparently a couple guys in my outfit have been approached by delta. Is this rumor true?

flysooner9
05-11-2018, 12:33 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed in this post yet or not but Iíve heard that the legacies are trying to get older pilots that only have 2 or 3 years of airline eligibility from corporate departments to fly their MadDogs until they are either aged out or the fleet is retired. Apparently a couple guys in my outfit have been approached by delta. Is this rumor true?

Highly doubt it. Are you saying young guys canít fly the maddog?

Sliceback
05-11-2018, 04:14 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed in this post yet or not but Iíve heard that the legacies are trying to get older pilots that only have 2 or 3 years of airline eligibility from corporate departments to fly their MadDogs until they are either aged out or the fleet is retired. Apparently a couple guys in my outfit have been approached by delta. Is this rumor true?

Not true. Assignments go by seniority (age). An old corporate pilot could bid anything he wants. A young guy would be stuck with whatís left.

f10a
05-11-2018, 04:17 PM
Not true. Assignments go by seniority (age). An old corporate pilot could bid anything he wants. A young guy would be stuck with whatís left.Unless you go to delta where it's based on the last 4 of your SSN. Higher #s = better seniority.

tomgoodman
05-11-2018, 05:18 PM
Are you saying young guys canít fly the maddog?

The theory is that MadDogs will infuriate young guys, but wonít affect geezers who are already cranky. :p

SrfNFly227
05-11-2018, 07:20 PM
Iím calling BS on AA or any of the legacyís having less then 3,000 applications on file. Bet the number is still closer to 10k

It actually wouldnít surprise me at all with American. It is virtually impossible to be picked up outside of flow unless you are military. That information is very easy to figure out and Iíd be shocked if a lot of people havenít shifted their focus to other operators who offer a better chance of being picked up.

peaches
05-11-2018, 09:49 PM
Highly doubt it. Are you saying young guys canít fly the maddog?

Not at all Lol, Im pretty sure I know the youngest Delta FO on them. I think he is 23 or 24.

Just rumor a 60 something captain said that he was approached with.

flysooner9
05-12-2018, 04:02 PM
It actually wouldnít surprise me at all with American. It is virtually impossible to be picked up outside of flow unless you are military. That information is very easy to figure out and Iíd be shocked if a lot of people havenít shifted their focus to other operators who offer a better chance of being picked up.

Yeah but itís so easy to have applications in at all the majors. No reason not to have an app in even if the chances are slim.

atpcliff
05-12-2018, 07:31 PM
I also read on here from a major cargo guy (FedEx or UPS...he didn't say which). This was in 2017. He said their HR told them they had enough apps to cover 3 years of hiring, and then they had absolutely no idea how they were going to get enough pilots.

In GRB I just talked to a local pilot. He was talking about this thread's problem...lots of pilots leaving bizav to go elsewhere. He said a flt department in GRB was paying about $80K/year, and just upped the pay to about $140K. He said he was getting multiple job offers out of the blue.

rickair7777
05-13-2018, 08:03 PM
It actually wouldnít surprise me at all with American. It is virtually impossible to be picked up outside of flow unless you are military. That information is very easy to figure out and Iíd be shocked if a lot of people havenít shifted their focus to other operators who offer a better chance of being picked up.

Not impossible, a buddy of mine just got picked up, typical civilian, relatively low time, even had a speed-bump in his past. He did rush them pretty hard.

HwkrPlt
05-14-2018, 04:32 AM
Who do you work for? Never heard of a salary that high on the 91 side

The major management company I fly for now says they need to pay $300k in order to hire someone with G650 experience.

F2TH
05-14-2018, 07:30 AM
Rickair7777, sent you a PM.

flysooner9
05-14-2018, 10:05 AM
A sovereign driver in my parts was making 90k and told his company he was leaving for another job and they upped him to 130k

BoilerUP
05-14-2018, 11:32 AM
90k as a Sovereign PIC was *waaaaay* underpaid....

Convair5800
05-14-2018, 12:33 PM
The major management company I fly for now says they need to pay $300k in order to hire someone with G650 experience.

What region of the country is this in?

galaxy flyer
05-14-2018, 02:38 PM
Being a G 650, Iíd say NYC, LAX or SFO.

GF

flysooner9
05-14-2018, 02:43 PM
90k as a Sovereign PIC was *waaaaay* underpaid....

Well my region is way below national averages. Lot of people and outfits stuck in the same mindset of 17 years ago. I know a Challenger PIC making in the ball park of 80k and I made 75k as a Sovereign PIC before pulling the plug.

A lot of these outfits are soon in for a rude awakening.

SrfNFly227
05-14-2018, 04:18 PM
Well my region is way below national averages. Lot of people and outfits stuck in the same mindset of 17 years ago. I know a Challenger PIC making in the ball park of 80k and I made 75k as a Sovereign PIC before pulling the plug.

A lot of these outfits are soon in for a rude awakening.

My companies CP makes $95k as a Challenger 601 captain and thatís after a pretty large raise about a year ago. Luckily the owner of each plane chooses what to pay the crew so Iím paid above that despite not having a raise for 3 years.

Lots of owners are in for a shock when their current pilots quit.

peaches
05-15-2018, 06:10 PM
Well my region is way below national averages. Lot of people and outfits stuck in the same mindset of 17 years ago. I know a Challenger PIC making in the ball park of 80k and I made 75k as a Sovereign PIC before pulling the plug.

A lot of these outfits are soon in for a rude awakening.

I hear ya, my current company is 30k/60k for sic/pic 525 drivers. Not sure how they have been hiring as much as they have but only on the right seat.

Vital Signs
05-15-2018, 06:31 PM
In todays market.
This

The key to earning more money may be switching jobs - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/earn-more-money-switching-jobs-2017-7)

BigsuitcaseCA
05-17-2018, 11:17 PM
Can anyone here share what they have been offered lately for Global/G550 positions in SoCal or similar markets?

The numbers I keep hearing are all still in the 180 to 210 range, so north of 250 is frankly shocking.

HwkrPlt
05-18-2018, 03:15 AM
What region of the country is this in?

What GF said, major metropolitan areas. And this is for hiring guys with previous 650 experience into startup flight department.

LRSRanger
05-20-2018, 08:37 PM
As a data point I fly daily contract in turboprops and light jets. I do about 150K, and stay really busy. Multiple standing job offers from outfits I fly for. Potential path to large cabin stuff. Iím ditching for 121. 32 years old. What a time to be a pilot!

GeeWizDriver
05-20-2018, 10:59 PM
Can anyone here share what they have been offered lately for Global/G550 positions in SoCal or similar markets?

The numbers I keep hearing are all still in the 180 to 210 range, so north of 250 is frankly shocking.

A well known billionaire out west was offering $250K to be lead PIC on a used Global 6000. First 7 experienced guys that were offered the gig turned it down (principal is a tough dude). Not sure if the job is filled yet.

LRSRanger
05-20-2018, 11:39 PM
A well known billionaire out west was offering $250K to be lead PIC on a used Global 6000. First 7 experienced guys that were offered the gig turned it down (principal is a tough dude). Not sure if the job is filled yet.

Last i heard an open position on a global, over 200K base. Not sure if its the same principal.

LRSRanger
05-20-2018, 11:40 PM
Last i heard an open position on a global, over 200K base. Not sure if its the same principal.

And not Vulcan.

SactisbonesBJ
05-22-2018, 11:40 PM
Good. and it should go vacant until the owner chills out a little. Cant crap on pilots anymore and expect another to walk in the door behind them!

Varietyjones
05-24-2018, 10:25 PM
Good. and it should go vacant until the owner chills out a little. Cant crap on pilots anymore and expect another to walk in the door behind them!

Surely this cant be based out of Portland-metro? Only had a short interaction with a similar individual and he certainly didn't seem like a harda**

cobalt650
08-11-2018, 05:40 AM
Thread bump. Seems like things have calmed in regard to movement from solid corporate jobs to legacy carriers. Have we found the salary/quality of life balance, or am I just viewing it from a unique happy bubble? Thanks!

billsaw
08-11-2018, 12:07 PM
Thread bump. Seems like things have calmed in regard to movement from solid corporate jobs to legacy carriers. Have we found the salary/quality of life balance, or am I just viewing it from a unique happy bubble? Thanks!

I think your in a bubble. I just talked to a couple more business jet guys that switched to 121. They told me many more had their apps in. Until corporate departments offer a solid schedule and pay mucho deniro like the airlines many will leave.

I asked them what made them leave? They said it was simple. In a year they will be making more money and working way less.

I can't blame them.

If the big companies get their act together they can keep their flight department together. Once they let it fall apart it will be very hard to rebuild.

galaxy flyer
08-11-2018, 02:48 PM
Iíd agree, only the large-cabin guys in big cities are knocking down the 250k to prevent 121 moves. Even the most committed can do the math.

GF

billsaw
08-11-2018, 03:26 PM
I’d agree, only the large-cabin guys in big cities are knocking down the 250k to prevent 121 moves. Even the most committed can do the math.

GF

Yup and even the guys I talked to were on large cabin stuff before they left. The money was going to be slightly more but it was the schedule that seemed to be what moved them. According to them they were both on call a lot and that gets tiring.

So I suppose paying 250k won't do much to stop people unless they are on a schedule like Netjets where they work 7 on 7 off or something along those lines.

You just gotta ask yourself do you wanna make 250k working 3 days on and 4 days off or the same money but 5 days on 3 days on call 5 days on again. That was what did it for them.

Corporate flight departments are in for a real reality check over the next few years.

The smart ones will move quickly to compete. The slow ones are going to find it very very hard to rebuild once their people leave and realize there are no experienced guys left. They will literally be throwing money at guys in a year or two. I'm not talking about 2,000 hour FO's. But if they require 4,000 + hour captains good luck they will be gone and the ones left are going to get pricey.

galaxy flyer
08-11-2018, 08:59 PM
Thereís always some hard cases like me who couldnít stand the boredom of airlines. Five years of EAL 121 flying killed it for me. Never even applied after that, as have the half dozen ex-airline guys I worked with who never returned from furlough. But, one has to a hard case tediophobe who loves it.

GF

SonicFlyer
08-11-2018, 10:46 PM
I think your in a bubble. I just talked to a couple more business jet guys that switched to 121. They told me many more had their apps in. Until corporate departments offer a solid schedule and pay mucho deniro like the airlines many will leave.

I asked them what made them leave? They said it was simple. In a year they will be making more money and working way less.

I can't blame them.

If the big companies get their act together they can keep their flight department together. Once they let it fall apart it will be very hard to rebuild.


I suspect this may actually cause an elimination or outsourcing for many companies as it may become cost prohibitive if pilots are too expensive.

BoilerUP
08-12-2018, 04:13 AM
I suspect this may actually cause an elimination or outsourcing for many companies as it may become cost prohibitive if pilots are too expensive.

Outsourcing isn't any cheaper, often times it is between a little and LOT more expensive depending on ops tempo.

cobalt650
08-12-2018, 08:39 AM
Schedule predictability, understood. Salaryóeveryone lives in a different situation, but easy to compare that. Have you guys seen or had success in creating a comparable loss of medical insurance plan within your corporate departments to what the legacies offer?

squatcher1
08-12-2018, 03:09 PM
Anyone know if airlines would hire corp pilot over age 55? Currently making 150K year with great QOL, just wanting to fulfill lifelong goal and not always worrying about job being there.

billsaw
08-12-2018, 10:41 PM
Schedule predictability, understood. Salaryóeveryone lives in a different situation, but easy to compare that. Have you guys seen or had success in creating a comparable loss of medical insurance plan within your corporate departments to what the legacies offer?

Call Harvey Watt Insurance.They can handle it. It's not that expensive. No more than health insurance.

billsaw
08-12-2018, 10:49 PM
I suspect this may actually cause an elimination or outsourcing for many companies as it may become cost prohibitive if pilots are too expensive.

Well I think your sorta right. I think you will see some of the flight departments that probably shouldn't exist anyway vanish. Either the ones who only fly 100 hours a year or the ones that don't just never seem to have enough money to run their old beat up Lear.

But it's sorta a zero sum game. These execs and rich people still need lift. So while they may close theirs down they will charter and those planes need pilots too.

So I suspect the charter market will pick up.

If you notice a decade ago most of these charter outfits were two pilots per plane on call 24/7 slave driving. Now they all seem to be offering schedules of some sort.

N5139
08-13-2018, 08:45 AM
Anecdotally, several (over five) of my acquaintances at Fortune departments/High Net Worth accounts are just hoping for ďthe callĒ from a major airline.

Most cite the lack of schedule as the biggest driver, combined with less pay/retirement/health care than a narrowbody captain/widebody FO. The younger (40s and below) are also concerned about a GM-type scenario where theyíre 55 with kids in school and their department shutters (not to say the airline industry isnít fickle).

Most are frustrated in that their duties as ďinternational captainsĒ are many and the body of knowledge is deep, yet they arenít able to command market price for their skills nor have control over their schedule.

Most like their role (great equipment, destinations, etc), but find it hard to justify. That all being said, not all corporate jobs/people are the same. As stated above, there is nothing wrong with either side of the industry. Just depends on oneís personal situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

galaxy flyer
08-13-2018, 08:45 AM
This. A friend just left for an operation with 8 pilots for 2 planes. They think a 4-day trip to London calls for a mid-trip crew swap.

GF

dbflyer
08-13-2018, 08:47 AM
Schedule predictability, understood. Salaryóeveryone lives in a different situation, but easy to compare that. Have you guys seen or had success in creating a comparable loss of medical insurance plan within your corporate departments to what the legacies offer?

I have not. Most everything else with the job is solid but I've been bringing this up for several years to no avail. We have long term disability, but if it is something that is only loss of medical we're in trouble.:(

Tbpilot06
08-14-2018, 03:59 PM
I have not. Most everything else with the job is solid but I've been bringing this up for several years to no avail. We have long term disability, but if it is something that is only loss of medical we're in trouble.:(

I researched the Harvey Wyatt plan for our department. Itís in the hands of compensation and HR. Expecting to hear something soon, but Iím pushing for the entire package to be paid for for us. Iíll keep you updated. FYI Iím not a management pilot but took it upon myself with my Directors blessing.

f10a
08-14-2018, 11:12 PM
I researched the Harvey Wyatt plan for our department. Itís in the hands of compensation and HR. Expecting to hear something soon, but Iím pushing for the entire package to be paid for for us. Iíll keep you updated. FYI Iím not a management pilot but took it upon myself with my Directors blessing.Does the Harvey plan cover for loss of medical or would one have to go work an office job? The LTD plans I've seen say nothing about losing a medical and would require one work as a janitor if that's all you could do--they don't get the pilot world...

Tbpilot06
08-15-2018, 11:25 AM
Does the Harvey plan cover for loss of medical or would one have to go work an office job? The LTD plans I've seen say nothing about losing a medical and would require one work as a janitor if that's all you could do--they don't get the pilot world...

Yes they cover loss of medical .. there are several plans available and used in combination they can cover a long term loss of license