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View Full Version : KMDW clearance question?


grumman41
11-29-2017, 04:18 AM
Senario....KMDW atis says to expect RNAV Z to 22L. Your last clearance limit is STERE and 3000'. ATC is about two aircraft behind and being stepped on constantly. Upon reaching your limit what is correct? I could not get a reply from approach after several attempts.

Never had this into Midway...learning experience. Just trying to learn from this and get ahead the next time.

Thanks for your reply.


IDIOTPILOT
11-29-2017, 04:55 AM
If you take the literal lost comm regulations, you enter holding at STERE until your ETA. :D

trip
11-29-2017, 05:31 AM
Do what everybody else is doing.


grumman41
11-29-2017, 06:26 AM
Thanks for the input....we where min separation and a Right turn for hold would have put us heading direct to the RJ behind us, same altitude(3000). Not sure that we really had "lost comm".

Probably not correct but most part 91 guys will turn in and start the "step downs", flying the approach as charted. Not familiar with 121 regs. I would think there would be a clear SOP(part 121) for this situation?

My mommy told me not to do what other people are doing......they may jump off a bridge.

galaxy flyer
11-29-2017, 07:36 AM
Is this a real deal or a theoretical?

GF

sherpster
11-29-2017, 08:17 AM
You said it yourself. If you Go into a hold then you will cause a potential mid air or at the very least a big mess for atc to fix. Keep going past the fix is my choice. Go on guard and make calls to atc if you are really worried about it.

joepilot
11-29-2017, 08:37 AM
You said it yourself. If you Go into a hold then you will cause a potential mid air or at the very least a big mess for atc to fix. Keep going past the fix is my choice. Go on guard and make calls to atc if you are really worried about it.

I agree with transmitting on guard on the other radio. Perhaps you have had a transmitter failure or are on the wrong frequency.

Do the safest thing, which in this case is unlikely to be entering the hold.

Joe

DarkSideMoon
11-29-2017, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the input....we where min separation and a Right turn for hold would have put us heading direct to the RJ behind us, same altitude(3000). Not sure that we really had "lost comm".

Probably not correct but most part 91 guys will turn in and start the "step downs", flying the approach as charted. Not familiar with 121 regs. I would think there would be a clear SOP(part 121) for this situation?

My mommy told me not to do what other people are doing......they may jump off a bridge.

Were you on the pangg3? If so, read your chart.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1712/00081PANGG.PDF

ToastAir
11-29-2017, 02:20 PM
If indeed STERE was your clearance limit then you need to hold. If a clearance limit is issued you must be assigned an EFC or “no delay expected”. If you were cleared direct STERE, it is not necessarily a clearance limit.

sherpster
11-29-2017, 02:28 PM
If indeed STERE was your clearance limit then you need to hold. If a clearance limit is issued you must be assigned an EFC or “no delay expected”. If you were cleared direct STERE, it is not necessarily a clearance limit.

Excellent point.

DarkSideMoon
11-29-2017, 03:00 PM
If indeed STERE was your clearance limit then you need to hold. If a clearance limit is issued you must be assigned an EFC or “no delay expected”. If you were cleared direct STERE, it is not necessarily a clearance limit.

Stere is on the PANGG3- if he was flying the arrival he should follow the lost com procedure, which is to proceed inbound on the RNAV Z.

ToastAir
11-30-2017, 09:54 AM
I’m not convinced STERE was indeed a clearance limit, but if it was here is what the AIM paragraph 5-3-8c state: “If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), then enter a standard pattern on the course on which the aircraft approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required.”

One reason a controller may actually issue a clearance limit is because of frequency congestion. There may be no intent for the aircraft to hold, but if it reaches that point and further clearance cannot be issued that point would be a “protected spot.”

grumman41
12-01-2017, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the input. I forgot we where on the Fissk arrival. This means we where supposed to turn in for the approach if not cleared by Stere.

The atis also said to expect RNAV 22 Left approach. No excuse but it had been a busy long day. It looks like we did the right thing.



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