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View Full Version : Atlas Wins an Injuction


Jason605
11-30-2017, 10:06 AM
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/11/30/1212226/0/en/Atlas-Air-and-Polar-Air-Cargo-Granted-Preliminary-Injunction.html


awax
11-30-2017, 10:38 AM
The complaint:

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2017cv1953-59


Atlas argues, in particular, that the Union has orchestrated a concerted slowdown of flight operations in an effort to generate economic leverage in the ongoing contract negotiations. It contends, for example, that the Union has encouraged Atlas’s pilots to more frequently call in sick on short notice, to more frequently decline to fly because of fatigue, to refuse to volunteer for open flight assignments, and to delay flight departures by “blocking out on time.” Although Atlas argues that the RLA does not require proof of irreparable injury to sustain the issuance of a status quo injunction, it also maintains that it will suffer irreparable damage to its reputation and business if the slowdown is allowed to continue during the peak shipping season between Thanksgiving and the end of the year.

The Order:

https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2017cv1953-60


ORDERED that Defendants, their officers, agents, employees, members employed by Plaintiffs, and all persons acting in concert with any of them be, are hereby preliminarily enjoined from authorizing, encouraging, permitting, calling, engaging in, or continuing any strike, work stoppage, sick-out, concerted refusal to volunteer for or to accept work assignments (including, without limitation, open time flights), slowdown (including, without limitation, the existing SHOP and BOOT campaigns), or other self-help against Plaintiffs relating to the dispute or disputes arising from the Section 6 notice served in the round of bargaining that commenced on or about February 2016; and it is further

mukalel
11-30-2017, 12:06 PM
So the union lost this battle i take..


FR8Dog7
11-30-2017, 12:25 PM
ORDERED that Defendants, their officers, agents, employees, members employed by Plaintiffs, and all persons acting in concert with any of them be, are hereby preliminarily enjoined from authorizing, encouraging, permitting, calling, engaging in, or continuing any strike, work stoppage, sick-out, concerted refusal to volunteer for or to accept work assignments (including, without limitation, open time flights), slowdown (including, without limitation, the existing SHOP and BOOT campaigns), or other self-help against Plaintiffs relating to the dispute or disputes arising from the Section 6 notice served in the round of bargaining that commenced on or about February 2016; and it is further


Guess that worked out real well for you Gary S.! :D

Whale Driver
11-30-2017, 02:02 PM
Irrelevant. If you read it, it is like kissing your sister, for both sides.

JackStraw
11-30-2017, 02:16 PM
The company spent $100s of thousands on this lawsuit to let the pilots know that what they are doing is working. I’d say it’s a win for the pilot group.

Hiya, Jeff!

Birdsmash
11-30-2017, 03:05 PM
Does this mean pilots can’t call in sick, fatigued, or write up broken airplanes like the original complaint accused them of?

BoilerUP
11-30-2017, 03:07 PM
Everybody, regardless of who they work for, should take the time to read the ruling linked in post #2.

It is both illuminating and instructive.

Kougarok
11-30-2017, 06:24 PM
What’s the SHOP and BOOT campaign?

Twin Wasp
12-01-2017, 12:44 AM
Stop Helping Out Purchase (corporate HQ) and Block Out On Time.

Kougarok
12-01-2017, 07:56 AM
Stop Helping Out Purchase (corporate HQ) and Block Out On Time.

Ahh thank you. So the judge says it’s not OK to block out on time?

motorclutch
12-01-2017, 08:35 AM
Sounds like it to me!

FlyBoat
12-01-2017, 09:14 AM
Same crap as the Spirit TRO....

zerozero
12-01-2017, 10:51 AM
Ahh thank you. So the judge says it’s not OK to block out on time?

In the opinion of the economist hired by Atlas as an expert witness on airline operations, if a flight is otherwise ready to depart (loaded, fueled, catered, etc) but doesn't block out until STD then it's now considered late. Not "on time".

And apparently the judge bought it.

WingOffLight
12-01-2017, 09:25 PM
BOOT

Is not block out on time ( or “just” I may add )

The goal of a properly implemented BOOT is to cause an arrival delay. Block on time and then slow taxi, fly planned rout at endurance then min speed allowed in terminal and not picking or requesting a logical runway.

You cant be legaly or ethically charged for pushing on time.

Stratocruzr
12-02-2017, 08:39 PM
Anyone looking at this place. Don't be fooled by HR. There is no contract coming. HQ is refusing to bargain in good faith. They will not discuss any items that have any economic impact.
If you're at atlas. Run.

ROBsINtheHOOD
12-03-2017, 12:20 PM
The irony of the AAWW request for the Union to meet the obligations under the RLA is not lost on their attitude at a CBA. " ...The company remains committed to completing the bargaining process in a timely manner...." ( Another way to read that is ) , " ...under these old antiquated rules , you are not allowed to do what we are doing to the overall process. " AAWW should be compelled to honestly broker a fair deal , instead of corrupting the process by fancy legal wranglings. What a bunch.

Code Red
12-03-2017, 03:29 PM
Atlas is ****ed. No airline has been released since 2007. They go should go to the table and take what they can get.

White Cap
12-03-2017, 07:31 PM
Atlas is ****ed. No airline has been released since 2007. They go should go to the table and take what they can get.

Check your facts, Ms. Sanders.

WhaleWrangler
12-04-2017, 12:49 AM
The company spent $100s of thousands on this lawsuit to let the pilots know that what they are doing is working. I’d say it’s a win for the pilot group.

Monies which the judge ordered Atlas Pilots (1224) to pay to the company. I hope these funds are coming from Atlas pilot assesment fund and not from the general 1224 fund that others whom this doesn't effect have paid into??

RyeMex
12-04-2017, 03:31 AM
Monies which the judge ordered Atlas Pilots (1224) to pay to the company. I hope these funds are coming from Atlas pilot assesment fund and not from the general 1224 fund that others whom this doesn't effect have paid into??

Um, excuse me, who exactly told you that the Judge ordered 1224 to pay anything?

flyergurl
12-04-2017, 04:57 AM
Anyone who reads the judge's order will see the requirement of a $200,000 bond to be paid.

RyeMex
12-04-2017, 06:08 AM
Anyone who reads the judge's order will see the requirement of a $200,000 bond to be paid.

And anyone who reads the Memorandum Opinion carefully will see that the $200,000 bond is to be paid by Atlas. Not 1224. Not the pilots.

29 U.S.C. § 107. Setting an appropriate bond is necessary because “a party injured by an erroneous injunction has no action for damages in the absence of a bond and is limited to recovering the amount of a bond.”

The party that would be injured by the erroneous injunction in this case is IBT Local 1224, not AAWH.

"...the Court will order that Atlas post a bond
in the amount of $200,000..."
- Page 73 of the Memorandum Opinion.

kme9418
12-04-2017, 07:36 AM
BOOT

Is not block out on time ( or “just” I may add )

The goal of a properly implemented BOOT is to cause an arrival delay. Block on time and then slow taxi, fly planned rout at endurance then min speed allowed in terminal and not picking or requesting a logical runway.

You cant be legaly or ethically charged for pushing on time.

Really? Are you in 1224 and know this? Because I am. BOOT is "just" block out on time. And I'm not just saying that for the lawyers that are reading this.

flyergurl
12-04-2017, 08:07 AM
And anyone who reads the Memorandum Opinion carefully will see that the $200,000 bond is to be paid by Atlas. Not 1224. Not the pilots.

29 U.S.C. § 107. Setting an appropriate bond is necessary because “a party injured by an erroneous injunction has no action for damages in the absence of a bond and is limited to recovering the amount of a bond.”

The party that would be injured by the erroneous injunction in this case is IBT Local 1224, not AAWH.

"...the Court will order that Atlas post a bond
in the amount of $200,000..."
- Page 73 of the Memorandum Opinion.

Boy, my reading comprehension was seriously compromised. Even the 3 page Order clearly says Plantiff will pay the bond. I will just sit back and hush now rather than cause further confusion.

qiutong
12-04-2017, 12:22 PM
Atlas is ****ed. No airline has been released since 2007. They go should go to the table and take what they can get.

This kind of thinking is exactly what leads to “whipsaw” type contracts. ATI crews thought, “Oh well, I guess we’ll take what we can get.”, and look what that’s led to. Company managements love this kind of thinking, because it gives them the tools they need to drag their flight crews to the bottom, rather than pay them what they’re worth.

suddenimpact
12-04-2017, 03:07 PM
Is Atlas pursuing court costs? I know our ExCo said they would if they won, but we obviously didn't win.

Most of our pilot group anticipated a easy win. Some of the more experienced union guys kind of new that we rarely win in court on work action cases by reviewing other carriers cases. How our union carried it out in public like they did under Kirchner guaranteed it was going to happen this way. While the court order seems like "kissing your sister" so to speak, this injunction will make section 19s against crewmembers easier for the company and in court on damages in the future against the union.

You can test it out yourselves by continuing, but I bet the union will not help you much when/if you get popped on it. The union will try to minimize their own exposure of your actions.

I've seen guys risk their jobs for a lot less, it's in our nature. Just make sure you have a class date somewhere else when you do if your not rock solid right on your actions. Also remember, you might be exposing your other crewmembers your paired with.

WhaleWrangler
12-04-2017, 03:43 PM
Um, excuse me, who exactly told you that the Judge ordered 1224 to pay anything?

If you read the Order and NOT the original complaint, page 3 of the Order states the Plaintiff ie Atlas Pilots,

ORDERED that within 48 hours after this Order issues, an undertaking in the sum of $200,000, or cash in that amount, be filed by the Plaintiffs to pay the costs, attorneys’ fees, and damages sustained by any person or entity found to have been wrongfully enjoined or restrained;

BlueMoon
12-04-2017, 03:46 PM
Atlas is the plaintiff. IBT is the defendant.

suddenimpact
12-04-2017, 04:50 PM
C. Bond
One final issue merits brief discussion. Section 7 of the NLGA requires the posting of a
bond:
No temporary restraining order or temporary injunction shall be issued except on
condition that complainant shall first file an undertaking with adequate security in
an amount to be fixed by the court sufficient to recompense those enjoined for any
loss, expense, or damage caused by the improvident or erroneous issuance of such
order or injunction, including all reasonable costs (together with a reasonable
attorney's fee) and expense of defense against the order or against the granting of
any injunctive relief sought in the same proceeding and subsequently denied by the
court.
29 U.S.C. § 107. Setting an appropriate bond is necessary because “a party injured by an
erroneous injunction has no action for damages in the absence of a bond and is limited to
72recovering the amount of a bond.” Alton & S. Ry. v. Bhd. of Maint. of Way Emps., 899 F. Supp.
646, 650 (D.D.C. 1995) (citing Int’l Ass’n of Machinists & Aerospace Workers v. Eastern
Airlines, 925 F.2d 6, 10 (1st Cir. 1991)). In this district, the exact boundaries of when an action
for attorney’s fees under the NLGA may be brought are unclear, but courts have imposed a bond
sufficient to cover the costs of litigating the motion and any appeal. Id. at 651. Because the
parties have not offered proof of the appropriate bond, the Court will order that Atlas post a bond
in the amount of $200,000, but the Court invites the parties to file further briefs and supporting
evidence should either seek to modify this amount.

I believe this only a bond amount in case it is overturned in appeal which is not unusual. Not an actual amount of who pays for who's court costs. Just a general guarantee/escrow amount. Having been in court a number of times, this is not unusual.

RyeMex
12-05-2017, 08:54 AM
ORDERED that within 48 hours after this Order issues, an undertaking in the sum of $200,000, or cash in that amount, be filed by the Plaintiffs to pay the costs, attorneys’ fees, and damages sustained by any person or entity found to have been wrongfully enjoined or restrained;

Um... Yes. Exactly. The Plaintiffs. I.E. not 1224.

DC8DRIVER
12-05-2017, 05:22 PM
There seem to be a lot of Teamster haters and company boot lickers here.

Curious. Would have thought pilots on APC would be more supportive. Maybe not everyone here is a pilot ...

Crazy Canuck
12-05-2017, 05:23 PM
BOOT

Is not block out on time ( or “just” I may add )

The goal of a properly implemented BOOT is to cause an arrival delay. Block on time and then slow taxi, fly planned rout at endurance then min speed allowed in terminal and not picking or requesting a logical runway.

You cant be legaly or ethically charged for pushing on time.

And posts like this are EXACTLY why we lost the lawsuit.

BOOT was intended to guard against Atlas self inducing themselves into duty day violations and to encourage the pilots to actually READ the Notams instead of just tossing them in the white envelope. NOT to harm the company.

Code Red
12-09-2017, 05:00 PM
This kind of thinking is exactly what leads to “whipsaw” type contracts. ATI crews thought, “Oh well, I guess we’ll take what we can get.”, and look what that’s led to. Company managements love this kind of thinking, because it gives them the tools they need to drag their flight crews to the bottom, rather than pay them what they’re worth.

This is not about whipsaw. It’s the god damn truth. The powers that be on the NMB have their heads buried so far in the sand they’re choking from the smog in China. You will not see the NMB release any airline to strike. A carrier may walk on quo violations (I.e. ABX) but that’s about it.

So jumping up and down until you are blue in the face does nothing. 6 years of groveling and we only got our CBA because management was willing to sign and move on.

Crazy Canuck
12-09-2017, 05:11 PM
This is not about whipsaw. It’s the god damn truth. The powers that be on the NMB have their heads buried so far in the sand they’re choking from the smog in China. You will not see the NMB release any airline to strike. A carrier may walk on quo violations (I.e. ABX) but that’s about it.

So jumping up and down until you are blue in the face does nothing. 6 years of groveling and we only got our CBA because management was willing to sign and move on.

There may be more truth to this than we like, but we dont stop fighting. Ever. That’s how industry leaders are made.

HercDriver130
12-09-2017, 06:35 PM
This is not about whipsaw. It’s the god damn truth. The powers that be on the NMB have their heads buried so far in the sand they’re choking from the smog in China. You will not see the NMB release any airline to strike. A carrier may walk on quo violations (I.e. ABX) but that’s about it.

So jumping up and down until you are blue in the face does nothing. 6 years of groveling and we only got our CBA because management was willing to sign and move on.

^^^^^^^^^^^^. Never Truer words

Lockheed
12-09-2017, 07:54 PM
6 years of groveling and we only got our CBA because management was willing to sign and move on.

in the end they were indead willing
but...
we helped them get their minds right

JackStraw
12-11-2017, 02:33 PM
Good news!! The union lawyers have decided that it’s in their best interest to appeal the injunction decision. I’m sure it’s going to be a wildly useful allocation of the pilots’ dues.

DC8DRIVER
12-11-2017, 06:04 PM
Good news!! The union lawyers have decided that it’s in their best interest to appeal the injunction decision. I’m sure it’s going to be a wildly useful allocation of the pilots’ dues.

Good for you ... Saving the company some money!

JackStraw
12-11-2017, 06:23 PM
Good for you ... Saving the company some money!

The company pays union lawyers? What a nice company. Can you give us the odds of winning this thing the second time around?

Globemaster2827
12-11-2017, 07:24 PM
The company pays union lawyers? What a nice company. Can you give us the odds of winning this thing the second time around?

Better than if we don't try...

Whaledriver
12-12-2017, 06:47 AM
You can't win if you don't enter!

suddenimpact
12-17-2017, 05:38 PM
You can't win if you don't enter!

I hear the same thing from folks at the 7/11 when they are using their last dollars to get lottery tickets and a pack of smokes.

Sad thing is, the way this was done. Not that I was against it, just lets do it right and not get caught. This ExCo isn't open to advice and surrounds themselves with too many "inexperienced yes men" that are easy to manipulate. The ExCo got some advice from veteran union guys over two years ago on this issue that cited the same exact work action references and NLGA the Judge used to rule for the company. But the new sheriff in town ExCo Chair would have none of it and made a spectacle of it. Company gave us two years of rope to hang ourselves with and we obliged them. The crew calls, ATAMS, etc making it a spectacle shot us collectively in the foot and now the company has an injunction to use against the union and crewmembers.

We might be better off saving the money wasted on a low probability appeal win for the next court case coming up on amalgamation vs section 6. Probably why the company is locked up with us now negotiations wise. Waiting for that case to happen and probably in their favor reading section 1, the timelines in the framework agreement and this injunction of what really happened that brought us to this point.

fr8ghtdawg
12-17-2017, 08:54 PM
I hear the same thing from folks at the 7/11 when they are using their last dollars to get lottery tickets and a pack of smokes.

Sad thing is, the way this was done. Not that I was against it, just lets do it right and not get caught. This ExCo isn't open to advice and surrounds themselves with too many "inexperienced yes men" that are easy to manipulate. The ExCo got some advice from veteran union guys over two years ago on this issue that cited the same exact work action references and NLGA the Judge used to rule for the company. But the new sheriff in town ExCo Chair would have none of it and made a spectacle of it. Company gave us two years of rope to hang ourselves with and we obliged them. The crew calls, ATAMS, etc making it a spectacle shot us collectively in the foot and now the company has an injunction to use against the union and crewmembers.

We might be better off saving the money wasted on a low probability appeal win for the next court case coming up on amalgamation vs section 6. Probably why the company is locked up with us now negotiations wise. Waiting for that case to happen and probably in their favor reading section 1, the timelines in the framework agreement and this injunction of what really happened that brought us to this point.

If that doesn't work you could blame it on the Kalitta ExCo....That might work!!

suddenimpact
12-17-2017, 10:32 PM
If that doesn't work you could blame it on the Kalitta ExCo....That might work!!

I'm sure the Atlas ExCo has already hatched a new plan to blame Kalitta and make a new list for them as Polar did during the merger with Atlas with the new subcontracted flying going to Kalitta of DHL flying.

Almost a mirror of the Polar/Atlas whip-sawing of years gone by. Guess you weren't here for that like AACS, GSS, STN, furloughs and etc. Yet we keep repeating the fight the same way expecting a different outcome.

FR8Dog7
12-18-2017, 12:44 AM
I hear the same thing from folks at the 7/11 when they are using their last dollars to get lottery tickets and a pack of smokes.

Sad thing is, the way this was done. Not that I was against it, just lets do it right and not get caught. This ExCo isn't open to advice and surrounds themselves with too many "inexperienced yes men" that are easy to manipulate. The ExCo got some advice from veteran union guys over two years ago on this issue that cited the same exact work action references and NLGA the Judge used to rule for the company. But the new sheriff in town ExCo Chair would have none of it and made a spectacle of it. Company gave us two years of rope to hang ourselves with and we obliged them. The crew calls, ATAMS, etc making it a spectacle shot us collectively in the foot and now the company has an injunction to use against the union and crewmembers.

We might be better off saving the money wasted on a low probability appeal win for the next court case coming up on amalgamation vs section 6. Probably why the company is locked up with us now negotiations wise. Waiting for that case to happen and probably in their favor reading section 1, the timelines in the framework agreement and this injunction of what really happened that brought us to this point.


^^^^^^^^^ This^^^^^^^^^ !

suddenimpact
03-15-2018, 11:45 PM
The Atlas union finally announced the summary judgment by the court on managements second lawsuit and said that we are required to go into "arbitration". No section 6 under the RLA for us in which we would have better leverage (strike).

This is most unfortunate for us union members at Atlas. While I had hopes we would pull this one out, I predicted due to contract language, history and experience told me otherwise although our ExCo told us to hold fast while they tipped beers knowing they could leech more flight pay loss income. A number of the ExCo resides on the negotiating committee where we have no professional negotiators staffed.

It is further saddening that many have put themselves in jeopardy listening to our ExCo to the point of getting terminated. Such as for not flying without coffee in the catering which was probably written out of the catering stocking policy in retaliation by the company for our extreme catering compliance efforts earlier on. Another expected outcome knowing it didn't fall under our CBA but company policy in our case. Collateral damage I guess. Acceptable losses by our ExCo that we might get them back in the grievance process. I do appreciate all who donated to the union fund to help those members though. In today's market, they might get a better job anyway.

I'm not sure if the ExCo is feeling the heat or not, but they have recently shut down our own little Atlas web forum without announcement to the membership. The only alternative is their nonunion facebook page which long ago purged a majority number of members for voting on controlling flight pay loss reimbursement they have been collecting or places like here.

I would say lets take it up on the union forums, but the union got rid of them. So much for two way communications they brag about.

RyeMex
03-15-2018, 11:53 PM
Suddenimpact,

The “union boards” were shut down. That was not atlas’s decision. It was the decision of the Local’s executive board. It was a cost-saving measure, that I would think, as a dues paying member, you would appreciate seeing as they were hardly used.

As for your analysis of the most recent lawsuit:
It is horribly flawed. It seems as though you don’t understand what this most recent lawsuit was about. For clarification, I would recommend that you check your email for the message from the Exco that came out today explaining the implications. Barring that, you can feel free to PM me and I’ll die my best to explain my interpretation of recent events to you.

suddenimpact
03-16-2018, 01:05 AM
Suddenimpact,

The “union boards” were shut down. That was not atlas’s decision. It was the decision of the Local’s executive board. It was a cost-saving measure, that I would think, as a dues paying member, you would appreciate seeing as they were hardly used.

As for your analysis of the most recent lawsuit:
It is horribly flawed. It seems as though you don’t understand what this most recent lawsuit was about. For clarification, I would recommend that you check your email for the message from the Exco that came out today explaining the implications. Barring that, you can feel free to PM me and I’ll die my best to explain my interpretation of recent events to you.

That is contrary to what I was told by two chairmen. Being that the Atlas forums were self hosted using existing assets and unpaid volunteers, the cost savings thing bears even less weight to the point of it being a lie. Being that the forums were being shut down was not announced to the membership at all says something else also. Poor management or other nefarious things?

Without the actual court order in hand and IBT bylaw for members to not share internal releases to non-members, I will not attempt to further argue anything this ExCo said pro or con. Especially when they didn't bother attaching the court order as they have in the past. Another flag. The credibility of this ExCo is pretty low as they work their little stunts.

I don't like pointing these things out and would express them on our private forums if that was still an option, but they were stopped from further posts by the membership. While I have no problem with the ExCo being underhanded with the company as the company is to us, I do have a problem when our ExCo is underhanded to it's own members.

FR8Dog7
03-16-2018, 02:40 AM
That is contrary to what I was told by two chairmen. Being that the Atlas forums were self hosted using existing assets and unpaid volunteers, the cost savings thing bears even less weight to the point of it being a lie. Being that the forums were being shut down was not announced to the membership at all says something else also. Poor management or other nefarious things?

Without the actual court order in hand and IBT bylaw for members to not share internal releases to non-members, I will not attempt to further argue anything this ExCo said pro or con. Especially when they didn't bother attaching the court order as they have in the past. Another flag. The credibility of this ExCo is pretty low as they work their little stunts.

I don't like pointing these things out and would express them on our private forums if that was still an option, but they were stopped from further posts by the membership. While I have no problem with the ExCo being underhanded with the company as the company is to us, I do have a problem when our ExCo is underhanded to it's own members.


At least there is one Atlas crewmember that sees through all of 1224's Bull ******! No more web board, another slice of prime rib and a couple of lobster tails for Kirshner and his boys!

maxjet
03-16-2018, 03:36 AM
At least there is one Atlas crewmember that sees through all of 1224's Bull ******! No more web board, another slice of prime rib and a couple of lobster tails for Kirshner and his boys!

I would like to hear the other side in this. DC8Flyer?

Crusoe
03-16-2018, 09:18 AM
At least there is one Atlas crewmember that sees through all of 1224's Bull ******! No more web board, another slice of prime rib and a couple of lobster tails for Kirshner and his boys!

What are you guys talking about? Have you been to the website forum lately? I just checked and the forum is still up - it's just kind of wilting on the vine as most folks seem to find FB more convenient.

And regarding the lawsuit...

>I am a retired 22 year Atlas pilot, but I do know how to read a lawsuit. - FR*Dog7 <

Really? Because you are agreeing with someone that clearly didn't have a good understanding of what it said or meant.

How much does trolling pay these days anyway?

4runner
03-16-2018, 10:10 AM
I’ve never heard of any company that organizes itself into a holding company that bodes well for its employees.

akfrtdwg 57
03-16-2018, 10:13 AM
>I am a retired 22 year Atlas pilot, but I do know how to read a lawsuit. - FR*Dog7 <

Really? Because you are agreeing with someone that clearly didn't have a good understanding of what it said or meant.

How much does trolling pay these days anyway?

I'm sure Flynn pays them with treats and pats on the head like good lap dogs.

suddenimpact
03-16-2018, 10:46 AM
What are you guys talking about? Have you been to the website forum lately? I just checked and the forum is still up - it's just kind of wilting on the vine as most folks seem to find FB more convenient.

Yes, the forums are still visible at Atlas 1224. You can try to post to them, but the ExCo removed all the moderators that approve the posts so they can be seen by all the users. All posts have to be approved by a moderator first to be visible unlike here were a moderator only shows up when a complaint is made to the TOS by clicking one of these https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/report.gif on the offending post.

You will note on the committee listings that moderators were removed. The only guys that can post now are about five committee chairs that have moderator privileges so they can pass a committee message quickly. I believe the SPC chair put up a picketing notice six days ago.

So I imagine the strategy by the ExCo is to let it wither and die due to their little subterfuge while not announcing what they have done to the membership.

As to the facebook page, the ExCo has purged a large number of members from it after the FPL amendment passed. It is technically not part of the union though it's pimped as such by one of the ExCo.

dutch747
03-16-2018, 12:30 PM
The Atlas union finally announced the summary judgment by the court on managements second lawsuit and said that we are required to go into "arbitration". No section 6 under the RLA for us in which we would have better leverage (strike).

This is very misleading. The EXCO and the courts ruling clearly state that the court will not rule on this and it (Whether we negotiate under Section 6 or under the Section 1.F.b.ii of the CBA) must be decided in arbitration.

JackStraw
03-16-2018, 12:53 PM
This is very misleading. The EXCO and the courts ruling clearly state that the court will not rule on this and it (Whether we negotiate under Section 6 or under the Section 1.F.b.ii of the CBA) must be decided in arbitration.

Exactly. We didn’t lose the ruling..... yet. That loss will be handed to us many, many months from now. Then 2 years of arbitration.

suddenimpact
03-16-2018, 01:41 PM
It took some searching, but I found the opinion and order. Kind of a shame they couldn't put it out with the Chairman's update. Here it is (https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2017cv00903/468485/62). You might want to right click for a new tab. It also has a downloadable PDF once there. The framework agreement you have to get yourself off the 1224 site.

I did jump the gun. Apologies. We now have to go to an arbiter to hear the company's grievance they filed, that we ignored, to determine amalgamation vs sect. 6. Looking around page 20, it looks like we even provided evidence for the company and shot ourselves in the foot on one of our arguments involving expiration from what the judge said.

So one more step that will probably provide the same outcome in the end judging from our record with arbitrations and the issue at hand. Only about another 9 to 12 months down the road for this arbitration pending the arbiters availability let alone the costs before even getting started with the remainder of neg. or amalgamation. I'm sure there will be no neg. movement during this time. Arbiters love billable hours and our Negotiators/ExCo love Union Business pay.

Considering the big players on the third floor are already packing their bags for retirement and only care about keeping the stock price up long enough to cash in on their options, I doubt our foot dragging technique will pay off for us against them. Maybe with their replacements looking at our timeline now.

PowderFinger
03-16-2018, 02:39 PM
Everybody, regardless of who they work for, should take the time to read the ruling linked in post #2.

It is both illuminating and instructive.

Yes it is.

LineUpNWait
03-16-2018, 06:45 PM
At least there is one Atlas crewmember that sees through all of 1224's Bull ******! No more web board, another slice of prime rib and a couple of lobster tails for Kirshner and his boys!

There are a few on the line that share this sentiment, including myself!

I just have to laugh when they said on the Union Facebook page “in keeping with our policy of transparency” yeah right! Their mentality is your either with them or against them! You dare not speak against the moderators or else you’ll get booted off!

CaptainHvac
03-16-2018, 07:15 PM
There are a few on the line that share this sentiment, including myself!

I just have to laugh when they said on the Union Facebook page “in keeping with our policy of transparency” yeah right! Their mentality is your either with them or against them! You dare not speak against the moderators or else you’ll get booted off!

I havent spoken with many who are against our volunteers or accuse them of acting unethically; zero actually. They deserve a better pilot group probably. However, I've spoken with many who are sick of the Teamsters as a union because they really havent provided much support to our volunteers. I have yet to witness any support whats so ever from Teamsters National. Kalitta did leave for certain reasons which seemed to be spun by 1224, which I pretty much chalked up to Teamster propoganda anyways. Also, I'm completely unaware of any transparency policy they may have...do they promote this?

suddenimpact
03-17-2018, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by LineUpNWait https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/cargo/109623-atlas-wins-injuction-post2552492.html#post2552492)
There are a few on the line that share this sentiment, including myself!

I just have to laugh when they said on the Union Facebook page “in keeping with our policy of transparency” yeah right! Their mentality is your either with them or against them! You dare not speak against the moderators or else you’ll get booted off!
You pretty much nailed it. Just like those that spoke for the passed FPL Amendment found out by their expulsion from the facebook site let alone the already known supporting members that were never allowed on because of their position on it.

Now the same leadership has silenced the Atlas 1224 Web Forums.


I havent spoken with many who are against our volunteers or accuse them of acting unethically; zero actually. They deserve a better pilot group probably. However, I've spoken with many who are sick of the Teamsters as a union because they really havent provided much support to our volunteers. I have yet to witness any support whats so ever from Teamsters National. Kalitta did leave for certain reasons which seemed to be spun by 1224, which I pretty much chalked up to Teamster propoganda anyways. Also, I'm completely unaware of any transparency policy they may have...do they promote this?

IBT is willing to help with resources and has offered, but it has to be requested by the local. It is Atlas 1224 or more to the point Bob Kirchner who has not asked for any help from International. Bob addressed this in a General Membership Meeting and a crew call or two which might still be in the archives on our 1224 site. He said that we didn't need Internationals resources --- yet. BTW, there will be no more recordings of any meetings due to Bob not knowing when to shut up and having it used against us in court. So the local's fix is to not record anything anymore. That leaves about 2/3 of the crews in the dark since only about 1/3 are handy to attend a call/webconference.

They have been promoting transparency and two way communications in the last few Chairman updates, but it is another empty promise. All talk and no real application of the policy. Good marketing but another empty promise exampled by LineUpNWait's comments on the facebook page.

742Dash
03-17-2018, 04:43 AM
It took some searching, but I found the opinion and order. Kind of a shame they couldn't put it out with the Chairman's update. Here it is (https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2017cv00903/468485/62). .


Thanks. Interesting read, especially about our situation with the assigned mediator.

Globemaster2827
03-17-2018, 03:26 PM
You pretty much nailed it. Just like those that spoke for the passed FPL Amendment found out by their expulsion from the facebook site let alone the already known supporting members that were never allowed on because of their position on it.

Now the same leadership has silenced the Atlas 1224 Web Forums.




IBT is willing to help with resources and has offered, but it has to be requested by the local. It is Atlas 1224 or more to the point Bob Kirchner who has not asked for any help from International. Bob addressed this in a General Membership Meeting and a crew call or two which might still be in the archives on our 1224 site. He said that we didn't need Internationals resources --- yet. BTW, there will be no more recordings of any meetings due to Bob not knowing when to shut up and having it used against us in court. So the local's fix is to not record anything anymore. That leaves about 2/3 of the crews in the dark since only about 1/3 are handy to attend a call/webconference.

They have been promoting transparency and two way communications in the last few Chairman updates, but it is another empty promise. All talk and no real application of the policy. Good marketing but another empty promise exampled by LineUpNWait's comments on the facebook page.

There was only one person posting on the web forum and he was a complete idiot. We needed to shut that down as nobody was using it.

suddenimpact
03-17-2018, 10:20 PM
There was only one person posting on the web forum and he was a complete idiot. We needed to shut that down as nobody was using it.

Actually, there were quite a few lurkers and definitely more than one poster. Much like the facebook non-official union page (gc_comms), reading and not posting for fear of being pounced on by big tough guys like you or being booted off like so many others for expressing an opinion minutely different than Kirchner or Griffith. The Atlas union forums allowed everyone to see the name of the person posting via their profile. Posts were understandably limited because they were worried about retribution from our leadership started when Kirchner began his reign. You know, eat your own first since taking on the company is harder. Much like anyone identified as speaking positively for the "majority passed" FPL amendment having charges filed against them, booted from FaceBook and everyone of them being exonerated by the President of the local after the investigation. You might want to add these as another reason not to join Atlas on the other hiring threads here.

I do have to agree with you. I was also getting tired of the almost daily "Birthdays" post of guys one year closer to retirement on the Atlas forums.

maxjet
03-17-2018, 11:42 PM
In light of the latest developments. I speak officially for only myself, but feel comfortable stating that it is a common sentiment over here at K4. We would love to have any Atlas Pilots join us.

An experienced 747 or 767 pilot can at this moment project an upgrade in the near future. It appears that K4 will continue to acquire new aircraft as the month go by. We seem to be limited only by personnel at this time.

Lots of expansion rumors over here, from Oscoda maintenance facility expansion, a CMI on Turkish 800’s, to additional CMI DHL 767’s, it runs the full spectrum.

Given an even playing field with pay and benefits K4 has always had a better quality of life.

You might want to look into

JackStraw
03-18-2018, 08:30 AM
In light of the latest developments. I speak officially for only myself, but feel comfortable stating that it is a common sentiment over here at K4. We would love to have any Atlas Pilots join us.

An experienced 747 or 767 pilot can at this moment project an upgrade in the near future. It appears that K4 will continue to acquire new aircraft as the month go by. We seem to be limited only by personnel at this time.

Lots of expansion rumors over here, from Oscoda maintenance facility expansion, a CMI on Turkish 800’s, to additional CMI DHL 767’s, it runs the full spectrum.

Given an even playing field with pay and benefits K4 has always had a better quality of life.

You might want to look into

Serious question what’s the longest duty day you can have at K4?

maxjet
03-18-2018, 08:53 AM
Serious question what’s the longest duty day you can have at K4?

A double crew can have a maximum duty day of 24 hours. I have never had one. It just doesn’t happen very often.

2 man crew is 16 hours.

3 man crew is 17 amendable to 19 if crew members agree.

JackStraw
03-18-2018, 08:56 AM
A double crew can have a maximum duty day of 24 hours. I have never had one. It just doesn’t happen very often.

24 hours is not much more than our max of 22 hours. I wonder why our guys come down on k4 so hard for doing it. Seems you guys make more money by flying an extra couple of hours while we make more money by working a couple of extra days.

zerozero
03-18-2018, 01:54 PM
24 hours is not much more than our max of 22 hours. I wonder why our guys come down on k4 so hard for doing it. Seems you guys make more money by flying an extra couple of hours while we make more money by working a couple of extra days.

Well, I think 20 is too much. I refuse to extend to 22.

18 is acceptable to me, extendable to 20 for some crazy unpredictable reason.

maxjet
03-18-2018, 03:00 PM
Well, I think 20 is too much. I refuse to extend to 22.

18 is acceptable to me, extendable to 20 for some crazy unpredictable reason.

Well good for you. It is good when you know your personal limitations and stick to them.

gollum
03-18-2018, 03:47 PM
A double crew can have a maximum duty day of 24 hours. I have never had one. It just doesn’t happen very often.

2 man crew is 16 hours.

3 man crew is 17 amendable to 19 if crew members agree.

2 man is 14 (extendable to 16)

You have said before that the 24 hour duty days don’t happen that often but I would think the line flyers would disagree with you. I myself have had 3-23+ hr days in the last 30 days and one 26 hr day. Turkish just doesn’t depart on time very often.

Caveat: the duty day of 24 hours is not that bad unless you are someone who can’t sleep on the plane but the consensus on the line is the long days are happening more often.

akfrtdwg 57
03-18-2018, 03:58 PM
2 man is 14 (extendable to 16)

You have said before that the 24 hour duty days don’t happen that often but I would think the line flyers would disagree with you. I myself have had 3-23+ hr days in the last 30 days and one 26 hr day. Turkish just doesn’t depart on time very often.

Caveat: the duty day of 24 hours is not that bad unless you are someone who can’t sleep on the plan but the consensus on the line is the long days are happening more often.

But, but the 24 hour day was ONLY supposed to be used so you didn't have to overnight in a hostile area. Whatever happenes to that excuse?

zerozero
03-18-2018, 05:15 PM
Well good for you. It is good when you know your personal limitations and stick to them.

Limitations? Ok tough guy.

More like: Worth.

Ain't breaking my back for a 3rd tier dirt bag carrier.

No bucks; No Buck Rogers.

:cool:

You can keep playing hero. I'll be by the pool.

maxjet
03-19-2018, 01:30 AM
Limitations? Ok tough guy.

More like: Worth.

Ain't breaking my back for a 3rd tier dirt bag carrier.

No bucks; No Buck Rogers.

:cool:

You can keep playing hero. I'll be by the pool.

Read a couple of posts up from a man who has been flying them lately.

What I take from Your slightly sarcastic remark is that you would not be willling to do 24 unless it was for more money. There is no difference between us. You are just a higher priced hooker. Heck, you are probably prettier than me too. 😀

In other words, I have agreed to the working conditions over here at K4. You would have not. That is called personal limitations. For working under our “burdensome” contract we have pilots who make 500k+. I hope to make 300+ this year. Under the old contract, I was an FO for life and hadn’t even cracked 100k yet. I am very happy being a hooker in Connie’s brothel.

Again, if you are thinking of leaving Atlas, and love ACMI work, come over and take a look. I was very surprised when I arrived in 2011. Did not expect to see such well maintained aircraft, cool crews, great destinations, and a family type company when personal crises happens to an employee.

I truly wish you the best on your next contract. Based on what I read about your negotiations progress, my personal limitations would force me to leave. It makes me wonder, who is selling themselves short? You or me?

zerozero
03-19-2018, 01:58 AM
Read a couple of posts up from a man who has been flying them lately.

What I take from Your slightly sarcastic remark is that you would not be willling to do 24 unless it was for more money. There is no difference between us. You are just a higher priced hooker. Heck, you are probably prettier than me too. 😀

In other words, I have agreed to the working conditions over here at K4. You would have not. That is called personal limitations. For working under our “burdensome” contract we have pilots who make 500k+. I hope to make 300+ this year. Under the old contract, I was an FO for life and hadn’t even cracked 100k yet. I am very happy being a hooker in Connie’s brothel.

Again, if you are thinking of leaving Atlas, and love ACMI work, come over and take a look. I was very surprised when I arrived in 2011. Did not expect to see such well maintained aircraft, cool crews, great destinations, and a family type company when personal crises happens to an employee.

I truly wish you the best on your next contract. Based on what I read about your negotiations progress, my personal limitations would force me to leave. It makes me wonder, who is selling themselves short? You or me?

Fair enough.

Well, we're all different ages and seniority. So if I were to argue any of my "limitations" I might say that at my age and seniority it's worth a roll of the dice to stick around a little longer and see how it plays out.

At other age/seniority combinations, it makes more sense to go.

maxjet
03-19-2018, 09:04 AM
Fair enough.

Well, we're all different ages and seniority. So if I were to argue any of my "limitations" I might say that at my age and seniority it's worth a roll of the dice to stick around a little longer and see how it plays out.

At other age/seniority combinations, it makes more sense to go.

I couldn’t agree more😀

ocskyguy
03-19-2018, 11:59 PM
Let me start this with an unabashed admission that I am stirring the pot...

You all have been handed yet another "time out" from the courts. Forcing your (legitimate) dispute back into the hands of an arbitrator that is not known for speedy rulings.

What to do...

Well, funny you should ask. We here at K4 have a somewhat crisis level staffing issue. Despite the new Woo Hoo contract with its attendant pay raises, we are still hurting for bodies. And, the old man is buying airplanes faster than grandma grabs depends in the Wal Mart.

What does this mean to you? Well, if you are a junior guy at Atlas with a fairly long track to the left seat, I would seriously consider a fence jump. This place has been my home for a long time. And, I am also an Atlas alumni. Hands down, K4 is a more fun place to work. And, they actually do take very good care of you when (hope not for you) family tragedies/emergencies happen. Goes kinda like "go home now, we will figure out how to cover you..." My career here has had more than one of those. Can't say enough about how great they were.

Hell, even the money is good now. If I had Maxjet's cash, I could burn mine to heat the house when the next Nor'easter blows in...

Just sayin'

JackStraw
03-20-2018, 05:34 AM
Let me start this with an unabashed admission that I am stirring the pot...

You all have been handed yet another "time out" from the courts. Forcing your (legitimate) dispute back into the hands of an arbitrator that is not known for speedy rulings.

What to do...

Well, funny you should ask. We here at K4 have a somewhat crisis level staffing issue. Despite the new Woo Hoo contract with its attendant pay raises, we are still hurting for bodies. And, the old man is buying airplanes faster than grandma grabs depends in the Wal Mart.

What does this mean to you? Well, if you are a junior guy at Atlas with a fairly long track to the left seat, I would seriously consider a fence jump. This place has been my home for a long time. And, I am also an Atlas alumni. Hands down, K4 is a more fun place to work. And, they actually do take very good care of you when (hope not for you) family tragedies/emergencies happen. Goes kinda like "go home now, we will figure out how to cover you..." My career here has had more than one of those. Can't say enough about how great they were.

Hell, even the money is good now. If I had Maxjet's cash, I could burn mine to heat the house when the next Nor'easter blows in...

Just sayin'

Thanks for the info!

Would you mind speaking into the microphone and reading this back... “kalitta is hiring”.

Beans
03-20-2018, 03:13 PM
Read a couple of posts up from a man who has been flying them lately.

What I take from Your slightly sarcastic remark is that you would not be willling to do 24 unless it was for more money. There is no difference between us. You are just a higher priced hooker. Heck, you are probably prettier than me too. 😀

In other words, I have agreed to the working conditions over here at K4. You would have not. That is called personal limitations. For working under our “burdensome” contract we have pilots who make 500k+. I hope to make 300+ this year. Under the old contract, I was an FO for life and hadn’t even cracked 100k yet. I am very happy being a hooker in Connie’s brothel.

Again, if you are thinking of leaving Atlas, and love ACMI work, come over and take a look. I was very surprised when I arrived in 2011. Did not expect to see such well maintained aircraft, cool crews, great destinations, and a family type company when personal crises happens to an employee.

I truly wish you the best on your next contract. Based on what I read about your negotiations progress, my personal limitations would force me to leave. It makes me wonder, who is selling themselves short? You or me?

Please explain how you have pilots making 500k plus a year. Your 12 year capt. pay is $262. It just doesn't add up. Even if such pilot works 20 + days a month it doesn't add up. I understand story telling but this one is far fetched. I honestly want you to explain this to me.

maxjet
03-20-2018, 03:57 PM
Please explain how you have pilots making 500k plus a year. Your 12 year capt. pay is $262. It just doesn't add up. Even if such pilot works 20 + days a month it doesn't add up. I understand story telling but this one is far fetched. I honestly want you to explain this to me.

A couple of them are sim instructors. They max out pay in the sim and then fly OT the rest of the month. 262.00 X 200 credit hours/mo X 12 = $628,000.00. Every time they touch an airplane they are on OT.

Beans
03-20-2018, 05:29 PM
A couple of them are sim instructors. They max out pay in the sim and then fly OT the rest of the month. 262.00 X 200 credit hours/mo X 12 = $628,000.00. Every time they touch an airplane they are on OT.

OK I will bite. Im honestly trying to figure this out. So how many credit hours are sim instructors making for the 15-17 days a month they are working? Im guessing around 80-85. So even if they flew an additionnal 5-6 days a month how do they constantly get to 160 credit hours a month to get to 500k. I just don't see it. You would have to get at least 160 credit hours every single month to break 500k at that rate.

catching waves
03-20-2018, 05:41 PM
Something else I’ve been wondering too. Betty W. lost the fight to cancer. Connie and Ned are getting old. How much longer will these high dollars times last? I guess we will have to keep flying every day to stash away our acorns so when we go back to slow times we will survive the winter?

Or, get hired someplace else. I honestly don’t want to work more then the required amount. 17 days is long enough. Just met a guy who’s out for back to backs. Hard to wanna do more ot after that.

What’s gonna happen when this contract is amendable? I sincerely appreciate all the chest pumping, rah rah stuff. Really I do. But realistically, are we gonna be able to look at oursleves in the mirror when that time comes? Will we even be able to recognize ourselves after killing it to make a few extra bucks? Will our families recognize us?

Goal should be to work less for more. Not the other way around.

Lockheed
03-20-2018, 06:28 PM
Something else I’ve been wondering too. Betty W. lost the fight to cancer. Connie and Ned are getting old. How much longer will these high dollars times last? I guess we will have to keep flying every day to stash away our acorns so when we go back to slow times we will survive the winter?

Or, get hired someplace else. I honestly don’t want to work more then the required amount. 17 days is long enough. Just met a guy who’s out for back to backs. Hard to wanna do more ot after that.

What’s gonna happen when this contract is amendable? I sincerely appreciate all the chest pumping, rah rah stuff. Really I do. But realistically, are we gonna be able to look at oursleves in the mirror when that time comes? Will we even be able to recognize ourselves after killing it to make a few extra bucks? Will our families recognize us?

Goal should be to work less for more. Not the other way around.


sheez really
work your 16 and go home
its not that tough

HercDriver130
03-20-2018, 09:22 PM
sheez really
work your 16 and go home
its not that tough

^^^^^^^ this


as for 500K....dunno....but I personally saw 2 W-2s.... one at 404k....one at 412k....how much OT... have no clue

for me personally.. I was a 6 year FO half the year.. and a 7 year CA half the year... and total compensation was 212k,,, with 4 days of OT....YMMV

maxjet
03-21-2018, 01:22 AM
We have just doubled our training output and do no have enough instructors yet.

Some instructors do 2 sim periods most days at work. That alone would come out to 140 hours credit. Add a round trip or two, say CVG-ANC-HKG double crew and it is that simple.

You can have your own opinion about family life etc. everybody has their own reasons for working extra or not working extra. All valid. Myself? Never made much money before on one single job and have ancillary streams of income. With 2 years left, not married and a very supportive girlfriend I am going to try to make max bank these next two years. Max for my situation would probably be 300k+. That is 200k more than I planned to make.

I love how some folks come on here and indicate that these numbers are false.

maxjet
03-21-2018, 01:30 AM
Regarding the future of Kalitta. When the time comes there will be an evaluation of the airline. What they will find is that it is pretty valueless in any form other than an airline.

Used airplanes, some owned, some leased. Don’t own any routes, haul little Kalitta freight. There is really nothing to sell.

However, if left alone the machine pretty much runs itself and generates a nice profit in spite of our inefficienties. The folks who are left in the top management know this.

When the dust settles after Kim, Putin, and the Iranians nuke us the will be Keith Richards, cockroaches, Mesa Airlines, and yes Kalitta Air.

FR8Dog7
03-21-2018, 03:39 AM
Regarding the future of Kalitta. When the time comes there will be an evaluation of the airline. What they will find is that it is pretty valueless in any form other than an airline.

Used airplanes, some owned, some leased. Don’t own any routes, haul little Kalitta freight. There is really nothing to sell.

However, if left alone the machine pretty much runs itself and generates a nice profit in spite of our inefficienties. The folks who are left in the top management know this.

When the dust settles after Kim, Putin, and the Iranians nuke us the will be Keith Richards, cockroaches, Mesa Airlines, and yes Kalitta Air.

Now that is one of the funniest lines I have ever seen! (Keith Richards)

The rest is as spot on as you can get. If the young ones don't listen to you, well, you know that they do know everything! :D

Sniper66
03-25-2018, 09:42 PM
A couple of them are sim instructors. They max out pay in the sim and then fly OT the rest of the month. 262.00 X 200 credit hours/mo X 12 = $628,000.00. Every time they touch an airplane they are on OT.





Just like Freedom airlines for you